January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[MDlaxfan76]

Damned shame: https://apple.news/AC_WxAjTEQHihMRt4t1G88Q

Remember a few years ago when right wingers said Obama created a "war on cops"?

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/ ... JpdVV5U9A7 IKBPRk6Ow17UNg80LEuHWB4SU


I wonder what these geniuses are thinking now since they suddenly became so silent.

Your logic is very poor, no wonder you are so far left...the center did not even want you.

Funny how all of a sudden, to you right wingers the cops are now the enemies.

What the heck are you talking about. Nothing I said or posted implied that, quite the opposite.

+1; I don't think we've heard anything to suggest youth is critical of the Capitol Police (or any other police), much less consider them 'enemies'.

Brook, doesn't make sense to lump your fellow posters, including the rightward leaning such with the a-holes you are (correctly and understandably) referring to as "right-wingers" who have attacked the Cap Police and/or undermined or covered up for the trauma they went though, diminished the bravery they exhibited....unless direct evidence that a fellow poster agrees with those a-holes. No such for youth.

[Brooklyn]

Funny how I was just called a leftist even though I'm expressing sympathy for the cops and feds who were only doing their job. Naturally, no criticism for that generalization.

[old salt]

"competently defended" (by your definition) would have meant extraordinary measures of fencing and deployment, unlike ANY time in our history, for ANY other event. (I'm critical of the lack of imagination of those involved, given that there certainly were those like me who thought there was an extreme risk, though I didn't expect a direct assault on the Capitol. I expected some sort of explosion, violence between counter protestors and protestors, and the declaration of martial law. But big risk.)

You greatly overstate the task. Look no further than the advance precautions taken by the Trump admin prior to the Mem Day BLM protests.
That "overly militaristic" approach worked. Congress & the CPB are going to have to figure it out & get their act together. Jan 6th revealed how vulnerable our Capitol complex is & the damage done by prioritizing woke "optics" over basic, effective security measures. The threat is not going away. The next angry mob could be BLM &/or Antifa. They've rioted in DC before, they just haven't focused their mob violence on the Capitol,...yet.

No, Trump simply didn't send the NG. Never gave the order.
His purview in DC (else give it to the Mayor).

Trump did not need to give the order. Approval authority had been already delegated to the SecDef & the Sec of the Army.
All that was needed was a timely request & permission to enter the Capitol grounds & DC streets, which came too late to make a difference.

[old salt]

Indeed, I want to see a full investigation and analysis and public airing of the actual tick tock of what went on that day, and the period leading up to it, who knew what and when, who communicated to who and when, who took what actions and when.

Don't get the sense you want any of that.

Nope, you want to claim that somehow Pelosi (not McConnell) and the Mayor were the problem.

4 suicides, very likely in response to the trauma experienced that day, the violence and the epithets, being called 'traitors'... and the subsequent lack of support... and your say "competently defended".

There you go again, putting yourself inside my mind & telling me what I think,
...just as you are doing for the police officers who committed suicide.
Suicide motivations can be complex & personal. Did they leave you a note ?
The line officers were heroic. They were let down by incompetent leadership & their feckless political masters.

I've studied the tick tock very closely & am anxious lo learn more. I want to focus on the actions of the officials responsible for security & their political bosses with the same level of scrutiny directed at Trump & his admin.

[MDlaxfan76]

Indeed, I want to see a full investigation and analysis and public airing of the actual tick tock of what went on that day, and the period leading up to it, who knew what and when, who communicated to who and when, who took what actions and when.

Don't get the sense you want any of that.

Nope, you want to claim that somehow Pelosi (not McConnell) and the Mayor were the problem.

4 suicides, very likely in response to the trauma experienced that day, the violence and the epithets, being called 'traitors'... and the subsequent lack of support... and your say "competently defended".

There you go again, putting yourself inside my mind & telling me what I think,
...just as you are doing for the police officers who committed suicide.
Suicide motivations can be complex & personal. Did they leave you a note ?

I've studied the tick tock very closely & am anxious lo learn more. I want to focus on the actions of the people responsible for security & their political bosses with the same level of scrutiny directed at Trump & his admin.

And what level of "scrutiny" do you want "directed at Trump & his admin"?
How about on his cronies, sycophants, and 'lawyers'? How about on "our General"?
How about on white supremacist groups and ex-military/militia types?
How about the Reps and Senators and their staff who encouraged the Big Lie and may have been in contact with, given tours to, the insurrectionists?

I'm 100% fine with analyzing the security preparations, who knew what and when, what mistakes were made, and when, etc. Of course, those hearings actually already happened, but I'm fine with digging deeper if there's any more to learn about it. But absent some actual evidence that Pelosi or McConnell got more involved in the security prep for that day than on other events (which is none typically) then it's BS to try to divert attention there.

No, I don't know the causes of the suicides, but it's a very reasonable proposition that such incidence of suicides does not normally occur within this staff, and that the traumas of Jan 6 and since then may well have contributed.

BTW, I was out of line with the snark that you should just come out and say you wanted Jan 6 succeed. Sorry. that went too far.

I'm just way past the point of tolerance for any further BS 'aid and comfort' to the insurrectionists, those that incited them, and their apologists. No more squirrel distraction.

[DocBarrister]

Indeed, I want to see a full investigation and analysis and public airing of the actual tick tock of what went on that day, and the period leading up to it, who knew what and when, who communicated to who and when, who took what actions and when.

Don't get the sense you want any of that.

Nope, you want to claim that somehow Pelosi (not McConnell) and the Mayor were the problem.

4 suicides, very likely in response to the trauma experienced that day, the violence and the epithets, being called 'traitors'... and the subsequent lack of support... and your say "competently defended".

There you go again, putting yourself inside my mind & telling me what I think,
...just as you are doing for the police officers who committed suicide.
Suicide motivations can be complex & personal. Did they leave you a note ?

I've studied the tick tock very closely & am anxious lo learn more. I want to focus on the actions of the people responsible for security & their political bosses with the same level of scrutiny directed at Trump & his admin.

And what level of "scrutiny" do you want "directed at Trump & his admin"?
How about on his cronies, sycophants, and 'lawyers'? How about on "our General"?
How about on white supremacist groups and ex-military/militia types?
How about the Reps and Senators and their staff who encouraged the Big Lie and may have been in contact with, given tours to, the insurrectionists?

I'm 100% fine with analyzing the security preparations, who knew what and when, what mistakes were made, and when, etc. Of course, those hearings actually already happened, but I'm fine with digging deeper if there's any more to learn about it. But absent some actual evidence that Pelosi or McConnell got more involved in the security prep for that day than on other events (which is none typically) then it's BS to try to divert attention there.

No, I don't know the causes of the suicides, but it's a very reasonable proposition that such incidence of suicides does not normally occur within this staff, and that the traumas of Jan 6 and since then may well have contributed.

BTW, I was out of line with the snark that you should just come out and say you wanted Jan 6 succeed. Sorry. that went too far.

I'm just way past the point of tolerance for any further BS 'aid and comfort' to the insurrectionists, those that incited them, and their apologists. No more squirrel distraction.

The January 6 insurrectionists were Trump supporters … racist, misogynistic, bigoted, violent trash … the absolute worst of America.

Completely agree … no more distractions. Trump is the focus of a violent, moronic, right-wing extremist, personality cult. Trump is trash, and his insurrectionist cultists are trash. And their defenders and apologists are trash.

DocBarrister

[MDlaxfan76]

"competently defended" (by your definition) would have meant extraordinary measures of fencing and deployment, unlike ANY time in our history, for ANY other event. (I'm critical of the lack of imagination of those involved, given that there certainly were those like me who thought there was an extreme risk, though I didn't expect a direct assault on the Capitol. I expected some sort of explosion, violence between counter protestors and protestors, and the declaration of martial law. But big risk.)

You greatly overstate the task. Look no further than the advance precautions taken by the Trump admin prior to the Mem Day BLM protests.
That "overly militaristic" approach worked. Congress & the CPB are going to have to figure it out & get their act together. Jan 6th revealed how vulnerable our Capitol complex is & the damage done by prioritizing woke "optics" over basic, effective security measures. The threat is not going away. The next angry mob could be BLM &/or Antifa. They've rioted in DC before, they just haven't focused their mob violence on the Capitol,...yet.

No, Trump simply didn't send the NG. Never gave the order.
His purview in DC (else give it to the Mayor).

Trump did not need to give the order. Approval authority had been already delegated to the SecDef & the Sec of the Army.
All that was needed was a timely request & permission to enter the Capitol grounds & DC streets, which came too late to make a difference.

Again, I'm calling BS.

BLM and antifa have never stormed the Capitol to stop the counting of certified votes, to over turn the election.

And Mem Day had no such threat. Nor any other threat on the Capitol. Indeed, this has never been even close to happening before.

And there's zero reason to suggest otherwise and that somehow this was prevented by Trump. That's total BS.

I don't think you're correct about "approval authority", else Pence wouldn't have been involved and that been such a surprise. People were begging Trump to send support...I want to know who did so, when they did so, and why he didn't...do you?

But, hey, maybe you're suggesting that we're back to the question of why the military didn't tell us that Flynn's brother was part of
the decision process to mobilize and send support?

I tend to trust Milley, but let's see what happened and why. This aspect really hasn't been throughly investigated, or at least aired, with those involved under oath.

BTW, I'm 100% fine with people, whether military or political or law enforcement, making honest mistakes of judgment...the question is what can be learned from those mistakes, what biases were present, if any, and how can they be avoided in the future.

[MDlaxfan76]

Funny how I was just called a leftist even though I'm expressing sympathy for the cops and feds who were only doing their job. Naturally, no criticism for that generalization.

well, you are a "leftist", right?

Personally, I don't think someone who skews hard to the left necessarily is anti-law enforcement. Just as I don't think someone who skews hard right is necessarily pro-crime or pro-criminal. Or is necessarily blind to law enforcement problems.

I just think that if we ascribe some negative to a fellow poster, in a generalized way, simply because they skew left or right, we do a disservice to the discourse.

Posters occupy all sorts of shades of left and right, and they aren't monolithically all the same. Of course, if they reveal their views in that discourse, fair to attribute those views to them in specific.

By contrast, I'm usually ok with statements that are more generalized about "right wingers" or "leftists" or whatever, as long as well founded in fact, not just hyperbole or exaggeration...and even then, generalizing tends to miss nuances.

Just my opinion.

[old salt]

And what level of "scrutiny" do you want "directed at Trump & his admin"?
How about on his cronies, sycophants, and 'lawyers'? How about on "our General"?
How about on white supremacist groups and ex-military/militia types?
How about the Reps and Senators and their staff who encouraged the Big Lie and may have been in contact with, given tours to, the insurrectionists?
Bring it on.

I'm 100% fine with analyzing the security preparations, who knew what and when, what mistakes were made, and when, etc. Of course, those hearings actually already happened, but I'm fine with digging deeper if there's any more to learn about it. But absent some actual evidence that Pelosi or McConnell got more involved in the security prep for that day than on other events (which is none typically) then it's BS to try to divert attention there.
Those hearings highlighted the failures. No solutions. What discussions took place between the CPB & their leadership about the Mem Day BLM riots & security for the Capitol ? Were the words "optics" or "overly militaristic" ever used ? How about by the Mayor ?

No, I don't know the causes of the suicides, but it's a very reasonable proposition that such incidence of suicides does not normally occur within this staff, and that the traumas of Jan 6 and since then may well have contributed.Police suicides happen all the time. We just don't hear about them & they're not politically exploited. btw -- one of those reported today took place Jan 10, so it was not influenced by the recent hearings.

BTW, I was out of line with the snark that you should just come out and say you wanted Jan 6 succeed. Sorry. that went too far.No offense taken.

I'm just way past the point of tolerance for any further BS 'aid and comfort' to the insurrectionists, those that incited them, and their apologists. No more squirrel distraction.
I want the full story.

[Typical Lax Dad]

And what level of "scrutiny" do you want "directed at Trump & his admin"?
How about on his cronies, sycophants, and 'lawyers'? How about on "our General"?
How about on white supremacist groups and ex-military/militia types?
How about the Reps and Senators and their staff who encouraged the Big Lie and may have been in contact with, given tours to, the insurrectionists?
Bring it on.

I'm 100% fine with analyzing the security preparations, who knew what and when, what mistakes were made, and when, etc. Of course, those hearings actually already happened, but I'm fine with digging deeper if there's any more to learn about it. But absent some actual evidence that Pelosi or McConnell got more involved in the security prep for that day than on other events (which is none typically) then it's BS to try to divert attention there.
Those hearings highlighted the failures. No solutions. What discussions took place between the CPB & their leadership about the Mem Day BLM riots & security for the Capitol ? Were the words "optics" or "overly militaristic" ever used ? How about by the Mayor ?

No, I don't know the causes of the suicides, but it's a very reasonable proposition that such incidence of suicides does not normally occur within this staff, and that the traumas of Jan 6 and since then may well have contributed.Police suicides happen all the time. We just don't hear about them & they're not politically exploited. btw -- one of those reported today took place Jan 10, so it was not influenced by the recent hearings.

BTW, I was out of line with the snark that you should just come out and say you wanted Jan 6 succeed. Sorry. that went too far.No offense taken.

I'm just way past the point of tolerance for any further BS 'aid and comfort' to the insurrectionists, those that incited them, and their apologists. No more squirrel distraction.
I want the full story.

You on a team? What challenge are YOU prepared to meet?

[PizzaSnake]

Indeed, I want to see a full investigation and analysis and public airing of the actual tick tock of what went on that day, and the period leading up to it, who knew what and when, who communicated to who and when, who took what actions and when.

Don't get the sense you want any of that.

Nope, you want to claim that somehow Pelosi (not McConnell) and the Mayor were the problem.

4 suicides, very likely in response to the trauma experienced that day, the violence and the epithets, being called 'traitors'... and the subsequent lack of support... and your say "competently defended".

There you go again, putting yourself inside my mind & telling me what I think,
...just as you are doing for the police officers who committed suicide.
Suicide motivations can be complex & personal. Did they leave you a note ?
The line officers were heroic. They were let down by incompetent leadership & their feckless political masters.

I've studied the tick tock very closely & am anxious lo learn more. I want to focus on the actions of the officials responsible for security & their political bosses with the same level of scrutiny directed at Trump & his admin.

Top to bottom full proctological exam. That little “demonstration” was completely unacceptable.

[MDlaxfan76]

And what level of "scrutiny" do you want "directed at Trump & his admin"?
How about on his cronies, sycophants, and 'lawyers'? How about on "our General"?
How about on white supremacist groups and ex-military/militia types?
How about the Reps and Senators and their staff who encouraged the Big Lie and may have been in contact with, given tours to, the insurrectionists?
Bring it on.

I'm 100% fine with analyzing the security preparations, who knew what and when, what mistakes were made, and when, etc. Of course, those hearings actually already happened, but I'm fine with digging deeper if there's any more to learn about it. But absent some actual evidence that Pelosi or McConnell got more involved in the security prep for that day than on other events (which is none typically) then it's BS to try to divert attention there.
Those hearings highlighted the failures. No solutions. What discussions took place between the CPB & their leadership about the Mem Day BLM riots & security for the Capitol ? Were the words "optics" or "overly militaristic" ever used ? How about by the Mayor ?

No, I don't know the causes of the suicides, but it's a very reasonable proposition that such incidence of suicides does not normally occur within this staff, and that the traumas of Jan 6 and since then may well have contributed.Police suicides happen all the time. We just don't hear about them & they're not politically exploited. btw -- one of those reported today took place Jan 10, so it was not influenced by the recent hearings.

BTW, I was out of line with the snark that you should just come out and say you wanted Jan 6 succeed. Sorry. that went too far.No offense taken.

I'm just way past the point of tolerance for any further BS 'aid and comfort' to the insurrectionists, those that incited them, and their apologists. No more squirrel distraction.
I want the full story.

You on a team? What challenge are YOU prepared to meet?

Salty, I had much the same reaction...do you want those parties fully and deeply investigated or are you gonna play defense counsel on here for these a-holes?

On the Senate investigation, that was GOP led...on that topic.
Are you saying they actually didn't ask the right questions or did you just not like the answers and want another bite at the apple? I don't recall specifically, but were the witnesses under oath?

And seriously, you don't think the traumas of that day likely contributed to the suicides? Really?

[old salt]

Salty, I had much the same reaction...do you want those parties fully and deeply investigated or are you gonna play defense counsel on here for these a-holes?

The facts are the facts. I'll defend them if they are accused without proof or substantiation. For example -- a member of Congress showing a voter from their district around the Capitol is not necessarily doing a recon with an insurrectionist.

On the Senate investigation, that was GOP led...on that topic.
Are you saying they actually didn't ask the right questions or did you just not like the answers and want another bite at the apple? I don't recall specifically, but were the witnesses under oath

The hearings were (D) lead, chaired by Sen Amy K.
https://www.rules.senate.gov/hearings/e ... us-capitol

And seriously, you don't think the traumas of that day likely contributed to the suicides? Really?

That's not what I said. People choose to end their own life for personal & complex reasons. Not my place to opine, presume or exploit.

[Kismet]

Salty, I had much the same reaction...do you want those parties fully and deeply investigated or are you gonna play defense counsel on here for these a-holes?

The facts are the facts. I'll defend them if they are accused without proof or substantiation. For example -- a member of Congress showing a voter from their district around the Capitol is not necessarily doing a recon with an insurrectionist.

On the Senate investigation, that was GOP led...on that topic.
Are you saying they actually didn't ask the right questions or did you just not like the answers and want another bite at the apple? I don't recall specifically, but were the witnesses under oath

The hearings were (D) lead, chaired by Sen Amy K.
https://www.rules.senate.gov/hearings/e ... us-capitol

And seriously, you don't think the traumas of that day likely contributed to the suicides? Really?

That's not what I said. People choose to end their own life for personal & complex reasons. Not my place to opine, presume or exploit.

Just curious if there were 4 suicides in your squadron/air wing when you were in the Navy what would your opinion regarding an investigation in that case have been?

You don't find it worthy of exploration in this case as to what might be going on with the police forces in question here?

[youthathletics]

Just curious if there were 4 suicides in your squadron/air wing when you were in the Navy what would your opinion regarding an investigation in that case have been?

You don't find it worthy of exploration in this case as to what might be going on with the police forces in question here?

That is really the 10k dollar question. it scares the bejeebus out of me wondering what was going through their minds. Certainly makes you wonder if they believed or found out that they were intentionally understaffed by those that they are there to protect, or possibly just the shear trauma of being under attack and it just scared the hell out of them.

[MDlaxfan76]

Salty, I had much the same reaction...do you want those parties fully and deeply investigated or are you gonna play defense counsel on here for these a-holes?

The facts are the facts. I'll defend them if they are accused without proof or substantiation. For example -- a member of Congress showing a voter from their district around the Capitol is not necessarily doing a recon with an insurrectionist.

Well, sure, in normal times...but these were COVID times and there weren't supposed to be ANY tours. Yet, apparently, there were such specifically by folks in Congress most rabidly supporting the Big Lie and of MAGA wearing "constituents", in the days before the insurrection...at a time when such apparel was relatively rare otherwise. Were these constituents actually insurrectionists? Were the Congress people aiding and abetting? Certainly a very important question. But here you go again at least seeming to suggest that the question itself is "without proof".

On the Senate investigation, that was GOP led...on that topic.
Are you saying they actually didn't ask the right questions or did you just not like the answers and want another bite at the apple? I don't recall specifically, but were the witnesses under oath

The hearings were (D) lead, chaired by Sen Amy K.
https://www.rules.senate.gov/hearings/e ... us-capitol

Correct, my error. Full GOP representation, though. And no limitation on their ability to ask these questions.

And seriously, you don't think the traumas of that day likely contributed to the suicides? Really?

That's not what I said. People choose to end their own life for personal & complex reasons. Not my place to opine, presume or exploit.

No, it's definitely within our and your place to "opine" just like on any other topic on which you "opine". We can't know for a certainty, but we can look at patterns of such, and we definitely know, from fellow police who were there that the traumas of that day were truly horrendous and that the responses from some members of Congress and right wing media have been very upsetting to them. IF you had watched the hearing last week, you'd have heard the pleas for more mental health resources for those who were there. They were explicit about the problem that they themselves are dealing with and their fellow offers are dealing with. Suicides being just the worst outcome.

[MDlaxfan76]

Just curious if there were 4 suicides in your squadron/air wing when you were in the Navy what would your opinion regarding an investigation in that case have been?

You don't find it worthy of exploration in this case as to what might be going on with the police forces in question here?

That is really the 10k dollar question. it scares the bejeebus out of me wondering what was going through their minds. Certainly makes you wonder if they believed or found out that they were intentionally understaffed by those that they are there to protect, or possibly just the shear trauma of being under attack and it just scared the hell out of them.

" found out that they were intentionally understaffed"???
If that was the case, those officers would have surely said so last week.
Yes, that would have pissed them off!

That's not been a question any of them have raised...there have been questions about why there wasn't better intelligence and whether there had been some sort of bias about the likelihood of violence from a white "conservative" crowd, but not intentional understaffing. There have also been questions as to whether they were hung out to dry by the slow political/military response in support (surely it must have felt that way at the time, whether it could have been faster or not).

But I don't think any of that compares (according to the officers under oath) to the trauma of seemingly endless violence and being called traitors and other epithets, whether racial or other, by fellow Americans carrying American flags. And then rejected by a large contingent of Congress as having done their jobs bravely and honorably, pooh poohing the traumas they experienced, etc.

[youthathletics]

Just curious if there were 4 suicides in your squadron/air wing when you were in the Navy what would your opinion regarding an investigation in that case have been?

You don't find it worthy of exploration in this case as to what might be going on with the police forces in question here?

That is really the 10k dollar question. it scares the bejeebus out of me wondering what was going through their minds. Certainly makes you wonder if they believed or found out that they were intentionally understaffed by those that they are there to protect, or possibly just the shear trauma of being under attack and it just scared the hell out of them.

" found out that they were intentionally understaffed"???
If that was the case, those officers would have surely said so last week.
Yes, that would have ticked them off!

That's not been a question any of them have raised...there have been questions about why there wasn't better intelligence and whether there had been some sort of bias about the likelihood of violence from a white "conservative" crowd, but not intentional understaffing. There have also been questions as to whether they were hung out to dry by the slow political/military response in support (surely it must have felt that way at the time, whether it could have been faster or not).

But I don't think any of that compares (according to the officers under oath) to the trauma of seemingly endless violence and being called traitors and other epithets, whether racial or other, by fellow Americans carrying American flags. And then rejected by a large contingent of Congress as having done their jobs bravely and honorably, pooh poohing the traumas they experienced, etc.

ahhhhh.....so now you get it,......you just will not and can not admit it. 06JAN2021 was immediately after a year of Fu*k The police, defend the police, cops are pigs, violence towards police, media sh*tting on the police, and the people the police protect are shoving them aside like spoiled food.

[Brooklyn]

Funny how I was just called a leftist even though I'm expressing sympathy for the cops and feds who were only doing their job. Naturally, no criticism for that generalization.

well, you are a "leftist", right?

Personally, I don't think someone who skews hard to the left necessarily is anti-law enforcement. Just as I don't think someone who skews hard right is necessarily pro-crime or pro-criminal. Or is necessarily blind to law enforcement problems.

I just think that if we ascribe some negative to a fellow poster, in a generalized way, simply because they skew left or right, we do a disservice to the discourse.

Posters occupy all sorts of shades of left and right, and they aren't monolithically all the same. Of course, if they reveal their views in that discourse, fair to attribute those views to them in specific.

By contrast, I'm usually ok with statements that are more generalized about "right wingers" or "leftists" or whatever, as long as well founded in fact, not just hyperbole or exaggeration...and even then, generalizing tends to miss nuances.

Just my opinion.

Funny how affirming universal health care, infrastructural building, limited military, Social Security, UBI, etc -- all of which were promoted by our Founding Fathers -- is, somehow, "Marxist" even Marx was born after most of our Founders were dead. At the same time, opposing these things is, somehow, patriotic {sic} in the delusional minds of the radical far right.

Laughable.

[Brooklyn]

https://i.imgur.com/1p88zcW.png



the usual right wing double standards ~ just pathetic