Future of College Lacrosse

[Typical Lax Dad]

Football and basketball break off as a separate athletic entity. All remaining sports remain with the NCAA.

Who will pay for all the remaining NCAA sports? The college basketball tournament pays for a good chunk of them now.

[buhund]

I think the one thing that is question from this is discussion is "What does ESPN want?"

ESPN was surely involved in the SEC/UT/OU conversations from the start. All those entities know they are better off financially by the move because ESPN told them they would be.

I could be wrong, but I believe ESPN would prefer four 16-team conferences vs one or two huge conferences. There is a lot of bluster amongst fans and pundits about which conference is "best". That bluster leads to people being more interested, which leads to people watching. Plus, bowl games are mostly tied to conference affiliation. The bowls of the future won't be what they were in the past, but people still watch them and ESPN still makes money on them.

[Farfromgeneva]

Drip-drip-drip.....jockeying for position, this young lady is funny: https://twitter.com/AnnieAgar/status/14 ... 22624?s=20

Is she schizophrenic?

[Farfromgeneva]

Collage Presidents holding the keys to the castle if we are following the logic of D&D and Hoodat.

I would assume, at some point, if football runs football, then a decision has to be made where they play and who's name is on that uniform. Ultimately the school owns them and can name their price if the football program wants to stay Alabama, Clemson, etc. Does admin then sever ties with school sponsored athletics and tells them..... 'you want our facilities and name...then pay up sucka'.

At some point, someone's feelings are going to get hurt and pockets are gonna be filled with lint.....this aint the NFL, unless they are trying to make it that.

Yep. I have no idea why a school would sponsor football or basketball if there was nothing in it for the school. Pro sports is a real business for a relatively small number of universities across this country. If I were a chancellor I would say pay the kids a stipend of $2k-$3k a month, set up a post grad fund $25k-$50k and offer free lifetime education. If that’s not enough, go play in the SEC…..We will play with whomever we recruit….if ESPN will broadcast WSYL and Corn Hole, they will broadcast whatever football remains.

Maybe some fan/“sponsors” but out the programs and create minor league teams. It underArmor founder could get out of his own way maybe he buys out UMD football and Phil Knight becomes the owner of Oregon BB & FB. Otherwise there’s be a lot of capex to get these enterprises to be truly standing in their own feet and you have a lot of public muni debt backed by these facilities and ticket revenue which have to be paid off or otherwise taken off the books of the colleges.

Biggest problem is the awful and pathetic transfer pricing in higher Ed that follow no rules and isn’t held accountable. Almost impossible to strip out the operating revenue and expense of these sports.

[youthathletics]

Drip-drip-drip.....jockeying for position, this young lady is funny: https://twitter.com/AnnieAgar/status/14 ... 22624?s=20

Is she schizophrenic?

MIssed ya, hope all is well.

[richlax5]

One thing about the ESPN+ model is that most of the content created for week to week lacrosse is done locally at the college at no expense to ESPN only an agreement to air a game or two throughout the season and have access to chamgionship game. While some of agreements state that ESPN will air digital content it is not something that is created solely for ESPN as some may air on local channels if access is provided. So this is kind of free content.

Another point to think about is does college football look at the EPL, English Premiere League, and consider some sort of relegation system? Again may be a few years away but this kind of model could save other sports as schools may have a influx of monies for other sports for a few years at a time. While not lacrosse schools think UCF and Boise State as prime examples. This could help with athletic budgets as a whole but I do think College Lacrosse is going to face some lean years and we may see more of a regional model as someone already suggested and the end goal for Northeast School might an ECAC Tournament as was held years ago.

My only hope is that the discussion we are having here is being had at the collegiate level from the ACC on down to the MAAC and SoCon.

[palaxoff]

I saw only one mention of it, but no discussion of it. What are the implications of Title 9 if there is a super conference. You know the resources needed to be competititve are going to go to the Football team. That means spending more on Womens sports or the usual model lower the spending by eliminating men's programs.

What caused the concept of a Super Conference? TV Rating and Game attendance were down before the pandemic. The level of participation at the Youth and High School level are on a decade decilne. As far as I kow Universities are in the education business not the sports entertainment business. Colleges offered sports along with other activities to help the students become more well rounded.

From what have read it is a small percentage of College Football teams operating in the black.

Personally I feel the entitiy that benefits from the talent development should be the one footing the bill. The NFL and NBA should have real delvelopemnt leagues for kids out of high school. If after 2-3 years the dream doesn't happen the NCAA should allow them to become students and give the 2-3 years of eleibilty.

[44WeWantMore]

If FBall and MBBall remain part of a University's educational mission no major changes in revenue directly to players (sure we can agonize over what might be a legitimate learning expense) can come from the University given the way most people understand Title IX.

The only way it would work (and I would think the giggle test will have to apply to the most careful legal drafting) would be for the teams to create separate legal entities from the University, and then pay the University to license their trademarks. Then the teams are paid by (say) ESPN, and they pay their players.

[LacrosseFan33]

One thing about the ESPN+ model is that most of the content created for week to week lacrosse is done locally at the college at no expense to ESPN only an agreement to air a game or two throughout the season and have access to chamgionship game. While some of agreements state that ESPN will air digital content it is not something that is created solely for ESPN as some may air on local channels if access is provided. So this is kind of free content.

Another point to think about is does college football look at the EPL, English Premiere League, and consider some sort of relegation system? Again may be a few years away but this kind of model could save other sports as schools may have a influx of monies for other sports for a few years at a time. While not lacrosse schools think UCF and Boise State as prime examples. This could help with athletic budgets as a whole but I do think College Lacrosse is going to face some lean years and we may see more of a regional model as someone already suggested and the end goal for Northeast School might an ECAC Tournament as was held years ago.

My only hope is that the discussion we are having here is being had at the collegiate level from the ACC on down to the MAAC and SoCon.

I think the EPL system is a fascinating thought experiment, I think it could be an amazing system and lead to some interest, especially for the smaller schools that go on those magical runs.

[OSVAlacrosse]

If FBall and MBBall remain part of a University's educational mission no major changes in revenue directly to players (sure we can agonize over what might be a legitimate learning expense) can come from the University given the way most people understand Title IX.

The only way it would work (and I would think the giggle test will have to apply to the most careful legal drafting) would be for the teams to create separate legal entities from the University, and then pay the University to license their trademarks. Then the teams are paid by (say) ESPN, and they pay their players.

This is spot on. The SCOTUS ruled that players can benefit from sponsorships which changes the competitive landscape. The scholarship is no longer enough. Only a small % of football and basketball programs generate enough $$ to benefit from the advantage that paying players will create. These schools seem to want a new format to compete that maximizes revenue. If the school does not pay the players direct or through scholarships but instead is paid by the sponsor the title IX impact could be huge. Why would they need to have an equal number of sports if the team was basically a very well financed club?

[Typical Lax Dad]

If FBall and MBBall remain part of a University's educational mission no major changes in revenue directly to players (sure we can agonize over what might be a legitimate learning expense) can come from the University given the way most people understand Title IX.

The only way it would work (and I would think the giggle test will have to apply to the most careful legal drafting) would be for the teams to create separate legal entities from the University, and then pay the University to license their trademarks. Then the teams are paid by (say) ESPN, and they pay their players.

This is spot on. The SCOTUS ruled that players can benefit from sponsorships which changes the competitive landscape. The scholarship is no longer enough. Only a small % of football and basketball programs generate enough $$ to benefit from the advantage that paying players will create. These schools seem to want a new format to compete that maximizes revenue. If the school does not pay the players direct or through scholarships but instead is paid by the sponsor the title IX impact could be huge. Why would they need to have an equal number of sports if the team was basically a very well financed club?

Are these athletes “students” of the university?

[OSVAlacrosse]

[quote=OSVAlacrosse post_id=281634 time=<a href="tel:1627578596">1627578596</a> user_id=1353]
[quote=44WeWantMore post_id=281618 time=<a href="tel:1627576307">1627576307</a> user_id=326]
If FBall and MBBall remain part of a University's educational mission no major changes in revenue directly to players (sure we can agonize over what might be a legitimate learning expense) can come from the University given the way most people understand Title IX.

The only way it would work (and I would think the giggle test will have to apply to the most careful legal drafting) would be for the teams to create separate legal entities from the University, and then pay the University to license their trademarks. Then the teams are paid by (say) ESPN, and they pay their players.

This is spot on. The SCOTUS ruled that players can benefit from sponsorships which changes the competitive landscape. The scholarship is no longer enough. Only a small % of football and basketball programs generate enough $$ to benefit from the advantage that paying players will create. These schools seem to want a new format to compete that maximizes revenue. If the school does not pay the players direct or through scholarships but instead is paid by the sponsor the title IX impact could be huge. Why would they need to have an equal number of sports if the team was basically a very well financed club?
[/quote]

Are these athletes “students” of the university?
[/quote]
In the SEC or other large programs this has been a question for a long time. These schools are now just out in the open about it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

[quote=OSVAlacrosse post_id=281634 time=<a href="tel:1627578596">1627578596</a> user_id=1353]
[quote=44WeWantMore post_id=281618 time=<a href="tel:1627576307">1627576307</a> user_id=326]
If FBall and MBBall remain part of a University's educational mission no major changes in revenue directly to players (sure we can agonize over what might be a legitimate learning expense) can come from the University given the way most people understand Title IX.

The only way it would work (and I would think the giggle test will have to apply to the most careful legal drafting) would be for the teams to create separate legal entities from the University, and then pay the University to license their trademarks. Then the teams are paid by (say) ESPN, and they pay their players.

This is spot on. The SCOTUS ruled that players can benefit from sponsorships which changes the competitive landscape. The scholarship is no longer enough. Only a small % of football and basketball programs generate enough $$ to benefit from the advantage that paying players will create. These schools seem to want a new format to compete that maximizes revenue. If the school does not pay the players direct or through scholarships but instead is paid by the sponsor the title IX impact could be huge. Why would they need to have an equal number of sports if the team was basically a very well financed club?

Are these athletes “students” of the university?
[/quote]
In the SEC or other large programs this has been a question for a long time. These schools are now just out in the open about it.
[/quote]

If the athletes are “students” it will be hard to get around title IX. If the kids are not university students with no opportunity provided by the university, that may be a different story.

[OSVAlacrosse]

If they are students but the team is a club, the university is not providing the opportunity. How does title IX impact club lacrosse right now at AL and UGA? Why would club or non NCAA football be any different? I think this move is all about separation from the NCAA and any school imposed limitations.

[wgdsr]

If they are students but the team is a club, the university is not providing the opportunity. How does title IX impact club lacrosse right now at AL and UGA? Why would club or non NCAA football be any different? I think this move is all about separation from the NCAA and any school imposed limitations.

because no one cares about club. and for the record, alabama and georgia are probably square on title ix for club.

if you end up putting a b before "illions", people care.

[OSVAlacrosse]

If they are students but the team is a club, the university is not providing the opportunity. How does title IX impact club lacrosse right now at AL and UGA? Why would club or non NCAA football be any different? I think this move is all about separation from the NCAA and any school imposed limitations.

because no one cares about club. and for the record, alabama and georgia are probably square on title ix for club.

if you end up putting a b before "illions", people care.

How does title IX impact club? With NCAA sports scholarship money needs to match. I think the intent of the new college football and basketball model is to create a non scholarship model which turns big time football into a club sport. The whole idea being that the sports no longer need to fund all the other sports or be subject to title IX as it would be a club and the school would not be paying the benefit. The club would be free to raise their own funds. In this case a TV deal. This is all about keeping football money with the football team so they can pay enough to recruit the best players. In this scenario women’s sports do not get equal share of athletic funds under title IX any more than a sorority would get the beer money that a fraternity raised at a party. Both are just school clubs only this club raises B ‘illions

[palaxoff]

Pretty sure Title 9 is for all spending not just sports. Sports just happens to be an example that is easy for everyone to follow. So I think the Club part will fall under it. We know there will be Title 9 law suits as soon as the deal is signed.

There are lots of hidden cost that aren't part of the Football budget I am guessing the biggest is the Football Stadium and atheltitc support staff will they be the clubs respondsibility. The Lax Club checks for officials are usually from the Club's bank account. Knowing what a MAC Football Fee is for officals is that a big weekly number.

Finally what are the Tax ramifacations if the Sport is a Club and not technincally part of the University and therefore don't fall under the Non Profit part of University.

Interesting Kettle of Fish they are boiling.

[wgdsr]

If they are students but the team is a club, the university is not providing the opportunity. How does title IX impact club lacrosse right now at AL and UGA? Why would club or non NCAA football be any different? I think this move is all about separation from the NCAA and any school imposed limitations.

because no one cares about club. and for the record, alabama and georgia are probably square on title ix for club.

if you end up putting a b before "illions", people care.

How does title IX impact club? With NCAA sports scholarship money needs to match. I think the intent of the new college football and basketball model is to create a non scholarship model which turns big time football into a club sport. The whole idea being that the sports no longer need to fund all the other sports or be subject to title IX as it would be a club and the school would not be paying the benefit. The club would be free to raise their own funds. In this case a TV deal. This is all about keeping football money with the football team so they can pay enough to recruit the best players. In this scenario women’s sports do not get equal share of athletic funds under title IX any more than a sorority would get the beer money that a fraternity raised at a party. Both are just school clubs only this club raises B ‘illions

there's discussion about how nil might evolve into silo or cordoned off fb and mbb in the supreme court ruling thread, starting about page 17.

the bottom line is there will be university ties everywhere. from being students, to facilities, deals. title ix says both sexes must be treated ~ equally at federally sponsored schools. it doesn't (originally) say anything about the ncaa, or club.

subsequent rulings have defined it for scholarships, opportunities as title ix relates to ncaa athletics. and rulings from here will weigh in as well about any attempted apple cart disruption from that. the core tenet will probably be women must be treated ~ equally at federally sponsored places. any maneuvering would have to be airtight. i find it unlikely.

[youthathletics]

Who wants to start up a Collegiate Players Union? I'm in. Gene Smith might be on his way out after agreeing with the NFL about vc-19 vaccines. WE could recruit him is leader.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Who wants to start up a Collegiate Players Union? I'm in. Gene Smith might be on his way out after agreeing with the NFL about vc-19 vaccines. WE could recruit him is leader.

Some firm has already started….