Is America a racist nation?

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Peter Brown
Posts: 12878
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:19 am

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Peter Brown »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
I'll bite.
With the caveat that any rational person knows that they don't know everything, indeed "the more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know", what exactly do you think TLD doesn't know or understand on this topic?

Where do you see a gap in his understanding or knowledge?
Is there something you think you know or understand that he doesn't?


Cradle is referring to history. Not ones lived experience. No one including historians knows everything about the past.

Btw, Allan Pinkerton gave quite a bit of money to John Brown. Pinkerton went on to found Pinkerton’s.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 27139
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Peter Brown wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:59 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
I'll bite.
With the caveat that any rational person knows that they don't know everything, indeed "the more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know", what exactly do you think TLD doesn't know or understand on this topic?

Where do you see a gap in his understanding or knowledge?
Is there something you think you know or understand that he doesn't?


Cradle is referring to history. Not ones lived experience. No one including historians knows everything about the past.

Btw, Allan Pinkerton gave quite a bit of money to John Brown. Pinkerton went on to found Pinkerton’s.
Let's let cradle answer for himself on this one, please.

He made a rather strident claim that TLD would not be willing to admit that he doesn't know everything, something very definitely not accurate about TLD as he's demonstrated many times on here. So, I'm wondering what specific knowledge, relevant to this thread and topic, cradle's referring to...what does cradle think he knows that TLD doesn't?
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34215
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
Only a fool can’t say “I was wrong” or “I didn’t know that”. “I made a mistake”…There is plenty I don’t know and I often research things I don’t know. That’s how you learn. You believe everything a person needs to know has been taught in school. Sounds foolish to me.
Last edited by Typical Lax Dad on Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“I wish you would!”
Peter Brown
Posts: 12878
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:19 am

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Peter Brown »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:55 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:59 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
I'll bite.
With the caveat that any rational person knows that they don't know everything, indeed "the more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know", what exactly do you think TLD doesn't know or understand on this topic?

Where do you see a gap in his understanding or knowledge?
Is there something you think you know or understand that he doesn't?


Cradle is referring to history. Not ones lived experience. No one including historians knows everything about the past.

Btw, Allan Pinkerton gave quite a bit of money to John Brown. Pinkerton went on to found Pinkerton’s.
Let's let cradle answer for himself on this one, please.

He made a rather strident claim that TLD would not be willing to admit that he doesn't know everything, something very definitely not accurate about TLD as he's demonstrated many times on here. So, I'm wondering what specific knowledge, relevant to this thread and topic, cradle's referring to...what does cradle think he knows that TLD doesn't?



TLD is a sharp mind, no doubt. He’s not IMO a hardcore liberal, but clearly a Democrat.

He also watches really random and esoteric movies. :lol:

I’ll obviously let Cradle deal.
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15494
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:55 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:59 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
I'll bite.
With the caveat that any rational person knows that they don't know everything, indeed "the more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know", what exactly do you think TLD doesn't know or understand on this topic?

Where do you see a gap in his understanding or knowledge?
Is there something you think you know or understand that he doesn't?


Cradle is referring to history. Not ones lived experience. No one including historians knows everything about the past.

Btw, Allan Pinkerton gave quite a bit of money to John Brown. Pinkerton went on to found Pinkerton’s.
Let's let cradle answer for himself on this one, please.

He made a rather strident claim that TLD would not be willing to admit that he doesn't know everything, something very definitely not accurate about TLD as he's demonstrated many times on here. So, I'm wondering what specific knowledge, relevant to this thread and topic, cradle's referring to...what does cradle think he knows that TLD doesn't?
TLD stated here Mr MD that I sounded stupid. Did he ever mention what I sounded stupid about? You never got part did you? TLD never said what it was i said that sounded stupid. That did not stop you from taking the ball and running with it. :roll:
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15494
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
Only a fool can’t say “I was wrong” or “I didn’t know that”. “I made a mistake”…There is plenty I don’t know and I often research things I don’t know. That’s how you learn. You believe everything a person needs to know has been taught in school. Sounds foolish to me.
I met and interacted with alot of those good ole southern boys in my time in the service and weekend visits to my friends hometown in Marion NC. What is being put forth on this forum is that every single Johnny Reb fought the civil war to defend slavery. I only know what I learned from drinking beer and Jim Beam with these good ole boys they fought because they did not want the federal government dictating to their state what they could and could not do. There is no doubt these rednecks did not like black folks. The N word was tossed around all the time. My take was they distrusted the federal government more than their prejudice against black folks. That was an observation i made on my own from listening to what these folks said. So for expressing that opinion that goes against the grain of what many people here believe.. what i say is stupid... GOT IT. I remember my friends cousin looking at my 77 Chevy Impala with the NYS plates and saying to me something like what the flip is a yankee like you doing down here? Easy answer for me.. drinking beer and doing shots of Jim Beam just like ya'll are doing. That is the only reason I fit in with these people.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34215
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:28 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
Only a fool can’t say “I was wrong” or “I didn’t know that”. “I made a mistake”…There is plenty I don’t know and I often research things I don’t know. That’s how you learn. You believe everything a person needs to know has been taught in school. Sounds foolish to me.
I met and interacted with alot of those good ole southern boys in my time in the service and weekend visits to my friends hometown in Marion NC. What is being put forth on this forum is that every single Johnny Reb fought the civil war to defend slavery. I only know what I learned from drinking beer and Jim Beam with these good ole boys they fought because they did not want the federal government dictating to their state what they could and could not do. There is no doubt these rednecks did not like black folks. The N word was tossed around all the time. My take was they distrusted the federal government more than their prejudice against black folks. That was an observation i made on my own from listening to what these folks said. So for expressing that opinion that goes against the grain of what many people here believe.. what i say is stupid... GOT IT. I remember my friends cousin looking at my 77 Chevy Impala with the NYS plates and saying to me something like what the flip is a yankee like you doing down here? Easy answer for me.. drinking beer and doing shots of Jim Beam just like ya'll are doing. That is the only reason I fit in with these people.
People believe all the US soldiers fighting in Iraq hated Iraqi soldiers? Some did….called them “sand N word”…..some things never change. :lol: :lol:
“I wish you would!”
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15494
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:45 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:28 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
Only a fool can’t say “I was wrong” or “I didn’t know that”. “I made a mistake”…There is plenty I don’t know and I often research things I don’t know. That’s how you learn. You believe everything a person needs to know has been taught in school. Sounds foolish to me.
I met and interacted with alot of those good ole southern boys in my time in the service and weekend visits to my friends hometown in Marion NC. What is being put forth on this forum is that every single Johnny Reb fought the civil war to defend slavery. I only know what I learned from drinking beer and Jim Beam with these good ole boys they fought because they did not want the federal government dictating to their state what they could and could not do. There is no doubt these rednecks did not like black folks. The N word was tossed around all the time. My take was they distrusted the federal government more than their prejudice against black folks. That was an observation i made on my own from listening to what these folks said. So for expressing that opinion that goes against the grain of what many people here believe.. what i say is stupid... GOT IT. I remember my friends cousin looking at my 77 Chevy Impala with the NYS plates and saying to me something like what the flip is a yankee like you doing down here? Easy answer for me.. drinking beer and doing shots of Jim Beam just like ya'll are doing. That is the only reason I fit in with these people.
People believe all the US soldiers fighting in Iraq hated Iraqi soldiers? Some did….called them “sand N word”…..some things never change. :lol: :lol:
You know how many of those US Marines that fought the Japanese in the Pacific went to their graves hating the Japanese? Were they also racist SOBs or did they come to the harsh conclusion the Japanese were a bunch of barbarians. Different cultures and different philosophies. In the eyes of the typical Japanese soldier surrendering was the ultimate act of dishonor to your country. The typical US Marine still had compassion and understanding for the enemy... until they were informed of the Bataan death march. The typical grunt and Marine in Vietnam had immense respect towards the VC. They fought with a tenacity it usually took a full tour of duty to finally understand.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34215
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:28 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:45 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:28 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
Only a fool can’t say “I was wrong” or “I didn’t know that”. “I made a mistake”…There is plenty I don’t know and I often research things I don’t know. That’s how you learn. You believe everything a person needs to know has been taught in school. Sounds foolish to me.
I met and interacted with alot of those good ole southern boys in my time in the service and weekend visits to my friends hometown in Marion NC. What is being put forth on this forum is that every single Johnny Reb fought the civil war to defend slavery. I only know what I learned from drinking beer and Jim Beam with these good ole boys they fought because they did not want the federal government dictating to their state what they could and could not do. There is no doubt these rednecks did not like black folks. The N word was tossed around all the time. My take was they distrusted the federal government more than their prejudice against black folks. That was an observation i made on my own from listening to what these folks said. So for expressing that opinion that goes against the grain of what many people here believe.. what i say is stupid... GOT IT. I remember my friends cousin looking at my 77 Chevy Impala with the NYS plates and saying to me something like what the flip is a yankee like you doing down here? Easy answer for me.. drinking beer and doing shots of Jim Beam just like ya'll are doing. That is the only reason I fit in with these people.
People believe all the US soldiers fighting in Iraq hated Iraqi soldiers? Some did….called them “sand N word”…..some things never change. :lol: :lol:
You know how many of those US Marines that fought the Japanese in the Pacific went to their graves hating the Japanese? Were they also racist SOBs or did they come to the harsh conclusion the Japanese were a bunch of barbarians. Different cultures and different philosophies. In the eyes of the typical Japanese soldier surrendering was the ultimate act of dishonor to your country. The typical US Marine still had compassion and understanding for the enemy... until they were informed of the Bataan death march. The typical grunt and Marine in Vietnam had immense respect towards the VC. They fought with a tenacity it usually took a full tour of duty to finally understand.
Some were probably racist. They were fighting the Japanese because soldiers follow orders. All “Grunts” were pals with the VC? Just like playing touch football on Thanksgiving Day. All in fun. Good dudes.
“I wish you would!”
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34215
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

“I wish you would!”
SCLaxAttack
Posts: 1719
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:24 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by SCLaxAttack »

cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:28 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
Only a fool can’t say “I was wrong” or “I didn’t know that”. “I made a mistake”…There is plenty I don’t know and I often research things I don’t know. That’s how you learn. You believe everything a person needs to know has been taught in school. Sounds foolish to me.
I met and interacted with alot of those good ole southern boys in my time in the service and weekend visits to my friends hometown in Marion NC. What is being put forth on this forum is that every single Johnny Reb fought the civil war to defend slavery. I only know what I learned from drinking beer and Jim Beam with these good ole boys they fought because they did not want the federal government dictating to their state what they could and could not do. There is no doubt these rednecks did not like black folks. The N word was tossed around all the time. My take was they distrusted the federal government more than their prejudice against black folks. That was an observation i made on my own from listening to what these folks said. So for expressing that opinion that goes against the grain of what many people here believe.. what i say is stupid... GOT IT. I remember my friends cousin looking at my 77 Chevy Impala with the NYS plates and saying to me something like what the flip is a yankee like you doing down here? Easy answer for me.. drinking beer and doing shots of Jim Beam just like ya'll are doing. That is the only reason I fit in with these people.
I've mentioned this a few times. The irony of what your southern friends used as the excuse for their forefathers fighting against the Union can't go unnoticed - at least now. The south didn't give a damn about a state's right to decide what it could or couldn't do. The reality is the confederate national government didn't provide the states or future territories within their union the opportunity to decide for themselves whether or not to allow slavery. Slavery had to remain legal within the Confederacy and become legal if it wasn't already in any territory desiring entry into the confederacy. Hopefully you would have set your old friends straight had you known. It wasn't their fault though. I'd be willing to bet the school systems in the south weren't teaching their students what the confederate constitution actually required. Heck, the school systems in the north weren't either, else they would have taught that the southern justification for the Civil War being one of state's rights was a bunch of baloney.

From https://cwemancipation.wordpress.com/20 ... stitution/:

"Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 made slaves a sancrosanct type of property within the Confederacy, with special protection under law. “No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.”"

"Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3 established that in any new territories gained by Confederacy, slaveholders would enjoy the same property rights to their slaves as in the existing states. “The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.”"
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34215
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

SCLaxAttack wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:54 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:28 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
Only a fool can’t say “I was wrong” or “I didn’t know that”. “I made a mistake”…There is plenty I don’t know and I often research things I don’t know. That’s how you learn. You believe everything a person needs to know has been taught in school. Sounds foolish to me.
I met and interacted with alot of those good ole southern boys in my time in the service and weekend visits to my friends hometown in Marion NC. What is being put forth on this forum is that every single Johnny Reb fought the civil war to defend slavery. I only know what I learned from drinking beer and Jim Beam with these good ole boys they fought because they did not want the federal government dictating to their state what they could and could not do. There is no doubt these rednecks did not like black folks. The N word was tossed around all the time. My take was they distrusted the federal government more than their prejudice against black folks. That was an observation i made on my own from listening to what these folks said. So for expressing that opinion that goes against the grain of what many people here believe.. what i say is stupid... GOT IT. I remember my friends cousin looking at my 77 Chevy Impala with the NYS plates and saying to me something like what the flip is a yankee like you doing down here? Easy answer for me.. drinking beer and doing shots of Jim Beam just like ya'll are doing. That is the only reason I fit in with these people.
I've mentioned this a few times. The irony of what your southern friends used as the excuse for their forefathers fighting against the Union can't go unnoticed - at least now. The south didn't give a damn about a state's right to decide what it could or couldn't do. The reality is the confederate national government didn't provide the states or future territories within their union the opportunity to decide for themselves whether or not to allow slavery. Slavery had to remain legal within the Confederacy and become legal if it wasn't already in any territory desiring entry into the confederacy. Hopefully you would have set your old friends straight had you known. It wasn't their fault though. I'd be willing to bet the school systems in the south weren't teaching their students what the confederate constitution actually required. Heck, the school systems in the north weren't either, else they would have taught that the southern justification for the Civil War being one of state's rights was a bunch of baloney.

From https://cwemancipation.wordpress.com/20 ... stitution/:

"Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 made slaves a sancrosanct type of property within the Confederacy, with special protection under law. “No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.”"

"Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3 established that in any new territories gained by Confederacy, slaveholders would enjoy the same property rights to their slaves as in the existing states. “The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.”"
That reads like some Critical Race Theory nonsense….that type of stuff just teaches kids how to hate.
“I wish you would!”
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15494
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

SCLaxAttack wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:54 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:28 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
Only a fool can’t say “I was wrong” or “I didn’t know that”. “I made a mistake”…There is plenty I don’t know and I often research things I don’t know. That’s how you learn. You believe everything a person needs to know has been taught in school. Sounds foolish to me.
I met and interacted with alot of those good ole southern boys in my time in the service and weekend visits to my friends hometown in Marion NC. What is being put forth on this forum is that every single Johnny Reb fought the civil war to defend slavery. I only know what I learned from drinking beer and Jim Beam with these good ole boys they fought because they did not want the federal government dictating to their state what they could and could not do. There is no doubt these rednecks did not like black folks. The N word was tossed around all the time. My take was they distrusted the federal government more than their prejudice against black folks. That was an observation i made on my own from listening to what these folks said. So for expressing that opinion that goes against the grain of what many people here believe.. what i say is stupid... GOT IT. I remember my friends cousin looking at my 77 Chevy Impala with the NYS plates and saying to me something like what the flip is a yankee like you doing down here? Easy answer for me.. drinking beer and doing shots of Jim Beam just like ya'll are doing. That is the only reason I fit in with these people.
I've mentioned this a few times. The irony of what your southern friends used as the excuse for their forefathers fighting against the Union can't go unnoticed - at least now. The south didn't give a damn about a state's right to decide what it could or couldn't do. The reality is the confederate national government didn't provide the states or future territories within their union the opportunity to decide for themselves whether or not to allow slavery. Slavery had to remain legal within the Confederacy and become legal if it wasn't already in any territory desiring entry into the confederacy. Hopefully you would have set your old friends straight had you known. It wasn't their fault though. I'd be willing to bet the school systems in the south weren't teaching their students what the confederate constitution actually required. Heck, the school systems in the north weren't either, else they would have taught that the southern justification for the Civil War being one of state's rights was a bunch of baloney.

From https://cwemancipation.wordpress.com/20 ... stitution/:

"Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 made slaves a sancrosanct type of property within the Confederacy, with special protection under law. “No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.”"

"Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3 established that in any new territories gained by Confederacy, slaveholders would enjoy the same property rights to their slaves as in the existing states. “The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.”"
i never once thought those good ole boys were lying to me. They made it very clear as a yankee from NYS they were not all that thrilled at me to begin with. Enough beer and Jim Beam they had no problems expressing their opinions of the federal government, the yankee states and black Americans. The most common theme, even if somewhat intoxicated was their contempt for the federal government and the federal government dictating to their state what they should or should not do. Slavery had a big part in that, but their issues IMO went much deeper than that. I remember these boys talking about generations of moonshiners that ran corn liquor all up and down NEBO Lake James with the feds trying to catch them every step of the way. Maybe I don't understand on the same level as many of you folks do. These were stubborn hard headed people that did not understand or respect authority. That is not a whole lot different than the attitude of many folks in America today.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34215
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:09 pm
SCLaxAttack wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:54 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:28 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:12 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:55 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:12 am
youthathletics wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:54 am It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.
We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !
Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN. :lol:

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. ;) Love ya!



Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?
I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.😁
Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Image

You might see some parallels to current political divide.
Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.
A lot you don’t know…..
I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time? :D
Only a fool can’t say “I was wrong” or “I didn’t know that”. “I made a mistake”…There is plenty I don’t know and I often research things I don’t know. That’s how you learn. You believe everything a person needs to know has been taught in school. Sounds foolish to me.
I met and interacted with alot of those good ole southern boys in my time in the service and weekend visits to my friends hometown in Marion NC. What is being put forth on this forum is that every single Johnny Reb fought the civil war to defend slavery. I only know what I learned from drinking beer and Jim Beam with these good ole boys they fought because they did not want the federal government dictating to their state what they could and could not do. There is no doubt these rednecks did not like black folks. The N word was tossed around all the time. My take was they distrusted the federal government more than their prejudice against black folks. That was an observation i made on my own from listening to what these folks said. So for expressing that opinion that goes against the grain of what many people here believe.. what i say is stupid... GOT IT. I remember my friends cousin looking at my 77 Chevy Impala with the NYS plates and saying to me something like what the flip is a yankee like you doing down here? Easy answer for me.. drinking beer and doing shots of Jim Beam just like ya'll are doing. That is the only reason I fit in with these people.
I've mentioned this a few times. The irony of what your southern friends used as the excuse for their forefathers fighting against the Union can't go unnoticed - at least now. The south didn't give a damn about a state's right to decide what it could or couldn't do. The reality is the confederate national government didn't provide the states or future territories within their union the opportunity to decide for themselves whether or not to allow slavery. Slavery had to remain legal within the Confederacy and become legal if it wasn't already in any territory desiring entry into the confederacy. Hopefully you would have set your old friends straight had you known. It wasn't their fault though. I'd be willing to bet the school systems in the south weren't teaching their students what the confederate constitution actually required. Heck, the school systems in the north weren't either, else they would have taught that the southern justification for the Civil War being one of state's rights was a bunch of baloney.

From https://cwemancipation.wordpress.com/20 ... stitution/:

"Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 made slaves a sancrosanct type of property within the Confederacy, with special protection under law. “No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.”"

"Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3 established that in any new territories gained by Confederacy, slaveholders would enjoy the same property rights to their slaves as in the existing states. “The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.”"
i never once thought those good ole boys were lying to me. They made it very clear as a yankee from NYS they were not all that thrilled at me to begin with. Enough beer and Jim Beam they had no problems expressing their opinions of the federal government, the yankee states and black Americans. The most common theme, even if somewhat intoxicated was their contempt for the federal government and the federal government dictating to their state what they should or should not do. Slavery had a big part in that, but their issues IMO went much deeper than that. I remember these boys talking about generations of moonshiners that ran corn liquor all up and down NEBO Lake James with the feds trying to catch them every step of the way. Maybe I don't understand on the same level as many of you folks do. These were stubborn hard headed people that did not understand or respect authority. That is not a whole lot different than the attitude of many folks in America today.
My great great grandfather probably put some of those rebels down in Virginia and North Carolina. You are right these people don’t understand authority….most understand a good ass kicking. It never fails.
“I wish you would!”
ggait
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Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by ggait »

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Everyone knows from U.S. History class why abolitionist Charles Sumner was caned on the U.S. Senate floor to within an inch of his life in 1856.

Few folks, other than Petey, know how jacked up people back then were over that Morrill Tariff! They were sooo jacked about it, in fact, that they were moved to violence five full years before it became law!!

Really wasn't about slavery. Which is just the CRT talking...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Charles_Sumner
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

ggait wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:18 pm
For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Everyone knows from U.S. History class why abolitionist Charles Sumner was caned on the U.S. Senate floor to within an inch of his life in 1856.

Few folks, other than Petey, know how jacked up people back then were over that Morrill Tariff! They were sooo jacked about it, in fact, that they were moved to violence five full years before it became law!!

Really wasn't about slavery. Which is just the CRT talking...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Charles_Sumner
Keep that mess out of the classroom…..it just makes black kids believe they can’t be whatever they desire to be and stuff like that teaches hate. I read it on Fanlax.
“I wish you would!”
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Matnum PI
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Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Matnum PI »

Structural Racism Isn’t Wokeness, It’s Reality
Christians must not deny the full consequences of centuries of intentional, racist harm.
David French
Jul 25, 2021

One of America’s most influential pastors is facing a crisis. No, it’s not the crisis of personal scandal. It’s the crisis of church division—over race, ideology, and minutiae of church procedure. Putting aside the procedural arguments, that division is a microcosm of the racial conflicts that are dividing the larger American church and the nation itself.

David Platt is a bestselling author, the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Mission Board, and the pastor of McLean Bible Church (MBC), a huge and influential church located outside Washington, D.C. Platt is facing a revolt from self-described “conservative” congregants, a revolt that culminated in a lawsuit filed against the church by a group of its own members, demanding that a Virginia state court intervene in the church’s elder selection process to, among other things, preserve their alleged right to vote in those elections and to mandate a secret ballot.

I’m not going to address the church’s procedural disputes. (Though I will note that it is contrary to basic principles of religious liberty to ask an arm of the state—a judge—to intervene in matters of church governance.) I am going to deal head-on with the prime underlying complaint that has triggered outrage and national media coverage of a struggle for control in one of America’s largest and most influential churches. The charge against Platt and his team can be summed up in one word: wokeness.

The congregants object to what they perceive as a pastoral embrace of critical race theory, and they assert that the Bible alone contains teaching sufficient to address America’s race problems. You can read the comprehensive complaint against Platt and his team here and the allegations of teaching or advocating CRT here.

Without restating all the contents of these lengthy documents, they include complaints that Platt and his MBC colleague pastor Mike Kelsey marched in a Christian black lives matter march and that Kelsey has endorsed the “CRT concepts” of “systemic racism” and “white privilege.” They also condemn Platt for this comment, which argues that the absence of overt prejudice doesn’t absolve one of the problems of racism and racialization:

A disparity exists. We can’t deny this. These are not opinions—they’re facts. It matters in our country whether one is white or black. Now, we don’t want it to matter, which is why I think we try to convince ourselves it doesn’t matter. We think to ourselves, “I don’t hold prejudices toward black or white people, so racism is not my problem.” But this is where we need to see that racialization is our problem. It’s all of our problem. We subtly, almost unknowingly, contribute to it.

The dissenters argue that the “solution to the ‘race’ problem in America is more Bible, not more sociology books. It is not the Bible plus a secular reading list, but sola scriptura.” It’s not just unwise to rely on secular scholarship to address American racism, they argue: It’s unbiblical.

This argument echoes tenets of the secular right-wing consensus on race—that racism exists only when there is individual malign intent, that remedies for racism should be limited to imposing consequences on individual racists, and that there is no intergenerational obligation to remedy historic injustice (“I’m not responsible for my ancestors’ sins”).

Under this mode of thinking, the concept of “equality under the law”—as mandated by the Constitution and the Civil Rights Act—is both necessary and largely sufficient to address the causes and consequences of centuries of slavery followed by generations of Jim Crow.

But on the core issues of American racism, Platt is biblically and historically right, and it’s his detractors who are biblically and historically wrong. These “conservatives” have placed a secular political frame around an issue with profound religious significance. They’ve thus not just abandoned the whole counsel of scripture, they’ve even contradicted a core component of the secular conservatism they claim to uphold.

To understand the flaw in their argument, let’s first turn to biblical text. A pastor friend of mine recently reminded me of an intriguing and sobering story from 2 Samuel 21. During the reign of King David, Israel was afflicted with three years of famine. When David “sought the face of the Lord” regarding the crisis, God said, “There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house.” (Saul had conducted a violent campaign against the Gibeonites, in violation of a covenant made with the Israelites many centuries before.)

Saul was king before David, and God was punishing Israel years after Saul’s regime because of Saul’s sin. It was the next king, David’s, responsibility to make things right. And so David turned to the remaining Gibeonites and said, “What shall I do for you? And how shall I make atonement, that you may bless the heritage of the Lord?”

The Gibeonites’ request was harsh—to hand over seven of Saul’s descendants for execution. David fulfilled their request, and “God responded to the plea for the land.”

Note the underlying conception of justice here: Israel remained responsible for its former leader's sins, and they were required to make amends. This is a consistent theme throughout scripture. I’ve referred to it before. In the book of 2 Kings, Josiah “tore his clothes” and “wept” when the high priest found the Book of the Law neglected in the temple. Why? Josiah said, “because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book.”

Josiah was far from alone. Daniel confessed the sins of Israel’s fathers. In the book of Nehemiah, the Israelites confessed the “sins and iniquities” of their fathers. In the book of Leviticus, God commanded the Israelites to “confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers.”

The reason for this obligation of repentance and atonement is obvious. The death of the offending party does not remove the consequences of their sin. Those who’ve been victimized still suffer loss, and if the loss isn’t ameliorated in their lifetimes, that loss can linger for generations.

Let’s apply this more concretely, to the United States of America. Enforcing the Constitution’s Equal Protection Clause and passing the Civil Rights Act was (and is) necessary to end overt, legal discrimination, but it was hardly sufficient to ameliorate the effects of slavery and Jim Crow. These effects are so embedded in our system that powerful people often perpetuate those structures even when they lack any racist intent at all.

To illustrate this reality, I’ll turn to perhaps the most commonly cited example (because it’s so significant) of how racism can be truly “structural” or “systemic” and thus linger for years even when the surrounding society over time loses much of its malign intent.

Residential segregation, through redlining and other means—especially when combined with profound employment discrimination and educational disparities—resulted in the creation of large communities of dramatically disadvantaged Americans. Because of centuries of systematic, de jure (by law) oppression, they possessed fewer resources and less education than those who didn’t suffer equivalent discrimination.

While the passing of the Civil Rights Act meant that black Americans had the right to live elsewhere, they often lacked the resources to purchase homes or rent apartments in wealthier neighborhoods with better schools. Indeed, to this day, the median net worth of a black family ($17,150) is roughly one-tenth the median net worth of a white family ($171,000). That means less money for down payments, less money for security deposits, and overall fewer resources that enable social mobility.

One of the solutions to this problem is permitting more multi-family housing in wealthier communities. But that’s exactly when NIMBYism rears its head. Even if every member of a local zoning and planning commission isn’t racist, there are multiple non-racist reasons for them to resist greater population density. There’s traffic congestion. There’s school overcrowding. There’s the potential consequence to property values. There are environmental objections. There are a host of related infrastructure concerns.

These non-racist reasons to block multi-family development are a reason why even the most deep-blue, race-conscious progressive neighborhoods so often bitterly resist new development, school zoning changes, and other concrete reforms that would grant individuals in historically segregated neighborhoods greater access to the educational and economic opportunities of historically white communities.

Time and again, there are non-racist reasons for wanting to maintain the structures racists created. Thus, you can begin to understand the cultural and political divide. A person who harbors absolutely no racial animus gets angry when they’re told they’re perpetuating systemic racism, or that racism can exist without malign intent. To be told you’re perpetuating racism when, in your heart of hearts, you know you’re making choices based on road safety, your child’s education, or the beauty of your environment can feel deeply offensive.

Conversely, a person who lives in the midst of the economic and educational deprivation originally created by racists are understandably angered when they’re told there is no racism present when powerful people repeatedly block reforms that would change the status quo. Justice fails when the same unjust outcomes are perpetuated, even though the newest generation of elites may possess different intent.

So how is a Christian to respond? First, let’s go back to scripture and recognize that the obligation to “act justly” is intergenerational. If there is injustice that predates our personal power, it is still our obligation to do what we can to set it right. Second, when you see these racist structures at work, you recognize that you need sociology, history, and economics to help understand not just their reality, but their remedy.

“Sola scriptura” doesn’t tell us how we should zone our communities, district our schools, or protect civil rights. Indeed, there’s an entire Christian doctrine of common grace that teaches us that truth can come from many sources. Even those “conservatives” who resist David Platt likely understand this in their daily lives. Is it the case that we can rely on non-Christian wisdom in, say, military strategy, trade policy, and law enforcement tactics, but when trying to untangle the effects of centuries of racial oppression, the Bible alone will be our guide?

Now for a note about conservatism. I simply don’t grant that the dissenters' objections to Platt are “conservative.” Right-wing, yes. Conservative? I object. Years ago, my friend Rod Dreher wrote that “the business of a conservatism with integrity is not to impose an idealistic ideological narrative on reality but rather to try to see the world as it is and respond to its challenges within the limits of what we know about human nature.”

I love that framing. Applied to race, it means that when we discern “the world as it is” (complete with understanding the structures that racists built) the policies a conservative might propose will be different than those of a progressive, in part because conservatives often (but not always) have a different view of human nature and human frailty than their friends on the left.

In other words, a conservative might have a different conception of “what works.” Progressive-dominated institutions haven’t cracked the code. Can conservative ideas do any better?

A conservative like me is suspicious of the effectiveness of central planning to ameliorate systemic injustice. I’m less likely to want to pour money into vast, centralized public school bureaucracies and more likely to empower school choice to grant families options in the short term and to provide competitive incentives for public schools to improve over the long term.

With regards to zoning, I’m more likely to suggest that property owners should be granted more economic freedom and that limits on multi-family housing are perpetuated by limiting people’s freedom to buy and develop land. The balance between planning and property rights should tilt more towards liberty. NIMBYism exists in part because government authorities sometimes control my backyard more than I do.

When it comes to inequities in policing, a conservative should double down on the Bill of Rights and seek to restore the original, expressed intent of America’s civil rights laws, which were explicitly designed to grant victims financial compensation when the state violates their rights.

Regardless of my ideology, the objective is justice. It’s not “conservative” justice or “progressive” justice. It’s simply justice. So if my ideology leads me astray, and the solutions I propose are inadequate to the enormity of the task, it’s my moral obligation to rethink my philosophical frame.

Finally, it is vital to approach the immense challenge of racial justice with an extraordinary amount of humility. Christians should not be so easily triggered by words that sound “progressive” or which they believe might be “inspired by CRT.” A movement that long derided the “snowflakes” on the other side now reacts as if allegedly offensive pastoral word choice is a microaggression all its own.

Moreover, no one person—no matter how intellectually or spiritually formidable—has discerned the single best way for our nation to “act justly” after so very many years of oppression. So approaching this topic requires grace. Every one of us will be wrong to some degree.

But even in the midst of all this complexity, some things are still clearly true. We still live with the legacy of the discriminatory structures our forefathers created. Our obligation to seek justice does not depend on a finding of personal fault. Christians must be open to truth from any source. And there is nothing—absolutely nothing—“conservative” about denying the reality of the consequences of centuries of intentional, racist harm.

One last thing …

This song is new, it’s from two of my favorite Christian artists, and it’s powerful. I hope it blesses you like it blessed me.
Caddy Day
Caddies Welcome 1-1:15
Peter Brown
Posts: 12878
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Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Peter Brown »

ggait wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:18 pm
For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776
Everyone knows from U.S. History class why abolitionist Charles Sumner was caned on the U.S. Senate floor to within an inch of his life in 1856.

Few folks, other than Petey, know how jacked up people back then were over that Morrill Tariff! They were sooo jacked about it, in fact, that they were moved to violence five full years before it became law!!

Really wasn't about slavery. Which is just the CRT talking...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Charles_Sumner


‘Abolitionist Sumner’ was really nothing but a crude, dumb drunk who exaggerated his injuries. Read for yourself if you don’t know that.

A northern politician getting his arse handed to him after crudely disparaging someone else in public on the public dole, beaten by a southern boy with noble honor top of mind, is nectar to my heart. I have no sympathy for most politicians. Sorry not sorry.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
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Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Back to Petey being Petey.
Peter Brown
Posts: 12878
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Re: Is America a racist nation?

Post by Peter Brown »

Matnum PI wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:16 pm Structural Racism Isn’t Wokeness, It’s Reality
Christians must not deny the full consequences of centuries of intentional, racist harm.
David French
Jul 25, 2021

One of America’s most influential pastors is facing a crisis. No, it’s not the crisis of personal scandal. It’s the crisis of church division—over race, ideology, and minutiae of church procedure. Putting aside the procedural arguments, that division is a microcosm of the racial conflicts that are dividing the larger American church and the nation itself.

David Platt is a bestselling author, the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Mission Board, and the pastor of McLean Bible Church (MBC), a huge and influential church located outside Washington, D.C. Platt is facing a revolt from self-described “conservative” congregants, a revolt that culminated in a lawsuit filed against the church by a group of its own members, demanding that a Virginia state court intervene in the church’s elder selection process to, among other things, preserve their alleged right to vote in those elections and to mandate a secret ballot.

I’m not going to address the church’s procedural disputes. (Though I will note that it is contrary to basic principles of religious liberty to ask an arm of the state—a judge—to intervene in matters of church governance.) I am going to deal head-on with the prime underlying complaint that has triggered outrage and national media coverage of a struggle for control in one of America’s largest and most influential churches. The charge against Platt and his team can be summed up in one word: wokeness.

The congregants object to what they perceive as a pastoral embrace of critical race theory, and they assert that the Bible alone contains teaching sufficient to address America’s race problems. You can read the comprehensive complaint against Platt and his team here and the allegations of teaching or advocating CRT here.

Without restating all the contents of these lengthy documents, they include complaints that Platt and his MBC colleague pastor Mike Kelsey marched in a Christian black lives matter march and that Kelsey has endorsed the “CRT concepts” of “systemic racism” and “white privilege.” They also condemn Platt for this comment, which argues that the absence of overt prejudice doesn’t absolve one of the problems of racism and racialization:

A disparity exists. We can’t deny this. These are not opinions—they’re facts. It matters in our country whether one is white or black. Now, we don’t want it to matter, which is why I think we try to convince ourselves it doesn’t matter. We think to ourselves, “I don’t hold prejudices toward black or white people, so racism is not my problem.” But this is where we need to see that racialization is our problem. It’s all of our problem. We subtly, almost unknowingly, contribute to it.

The dissenters argue that the “solution to the ‘race’ problem in America is more Bible, not more sociology books. It is not the Bible plus a secular reading list, but sola scriptura.” It’s not just unwise to rely on secular scholarship to address American racism, they argue: It’s unbiblical.

This argument echoes tenets of the secular right-wing consensus on race—that racism exists only when there is individual malign intent, that remedies for racism should be limited to imposing consequences on individual racists, and that there is no intergenerational obligation to remedy historic injustice (“I’m not responsible for my ancestors’ sins”).

Under this mode of thinking, the concept of “equality under the law”—as mandated by the Constitution and the Civil Rights Act—is both necessary and largely sufficient to address the causes and consequences of centuries of slavery followed by generations of Jim Crow.

But on the core issues of American racism, Platt is biblically and historically right, and it’s his detractors who are biblically and historically wrong. These “conservatives” have placed a secular political frame around an issue with profound religious significance. They’ve thus not just abandoned the whole counsel of scripture, they’ve even contradicted a core component of the secular conservatism they claim to uphold.

To understand the flaw in their argument, let’s first turn to biblical text. A pastor friend of mine recently reminded me of an intriguing and sobering story from 2 Samuel 21. During the reign of King David, Israel was afflicted with three years of famine. When David “sought the face of the Lord” regarding the crisis, God said, “There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house.” (Saul had conducted a violent campaign against the Gibeonites, in violation of a covenant made with the Israelites many centuries before.)

Saul was king before David, and God was punishing Israel years after Saul’s regime because of Saul’s sin. It was the next king, David’s, responsibility to make things right. And so David turned to the remaining Gibeonites and said, “What shall I do for you? And how shall I make atonement, that you may bless the heritage of the Lord?”

The Gibeonites’ request was harsh—to hand over seven of Saul’s descendants for execution. David fulfilled their request, and “God responded to the plea for the land.”

Note the underlying conception of justice here: Israel remained responsible for its former leader's sins, and they were required to make amends. This is a consistent theme throughout scripture. I’ve referred to it before. In the book of 2 Kings, Josiah “tore his clothes” and “wept” when the high priest found the Book of the Law neglected in the temple. Why? Josiah said, “because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book.”

Josiah was far from alone. Daniel confessed the sins of Israel’s fathers. In the book of Nehemiah, the Israelites confessed the “sins and iniquities” of their fathers. In the book of Leviticus, God commanded the Israelites to “confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers.”

The reason for this obligation of repentance and atonement is obvious. The death of the offending party does not remove the consequences of their sin. Those who’ve been victimized still suffer loss, and if the loss isn’t ameliorated in their lifetimes, that loss can linger for generations.

Let’s apply this more concretely, to the United States of America. Enforcing the Constitution’s Equal Protection Clause and passing the Civil Rights Act was (and is) necessary to end overt, legal discrimination, but it was hardly sufficient to ameliorate the effects of slavery and Jim Crow. These effects are so embedded in our system that powerful people often perpetuate those structures even when they lack any racist intent at all.

To illustrate this reality, I’ll turn to perhaps the most commonly cited example (because it’s so significant) of how racism can be truly “structural” or “systemic” and thus linger for years even when the surrounding society over time loses much of its malign intent.

Residential segregation, through redlining and other means—especially when combined with profound employment discrimination and educational disparities—resulted in the creation of large communities of dramatically disadvantaged Americans. Because of centuries of systematic, de jure (by law) oppression, they possessed fewer resources and less education than those who didn’t suffer equivalent discrimination.

While the passing of the Civil Rights Act meant that black Americans had the right to live elsewhere, they often lacked the resources to purchase homes or rent apartments in wealthier neighborhoods with better schools. Indeed, to this day, the median net worth of a black family ($17,150) is roughly one-tenth the median net worth of a white family ($171,000). That means less money for down payments, less money for security deposits, and overall fewer resources that enable social mobility.

One of the solutions to this problem is permitting more multi-family housing in wealthier communities. But that’s exactly when NIMBYism rears its head. Even if every member of a local zoning and planning commission isn’t racist, there are multiple non-racist reasons for them to resist greater population density. There’s traffic congestion. There’s school overcrowding. There’s the potential consequence to property values. There are environmental objections. There are a host of related infrastructure concerns.

These non-racist reasons to block multi-family development are a reason why even the most deep-blue, race-conscious progressive neighborhoods so often bitterly resist new development, school zoning changes, and other concrete reforms that would grant individuals in historically segregated neighborhoods greater access to the educational and economic opportunities of historically white communities.

Time and again, there are non-racist reasons for wanting to maintain the structures racists created. Thus, you can begin to understand the cultural and political divide. A person who harbors absolutely no racial animus gets angry when they’re told they’re perpetuating systemic racism, or that racism can exist without malign intent. To be told you’re perpetuating racism when, in your heart of hearts, you know you’re making choices based on road safety, your child’s education, or the beauty of your environment can feel deeply offensive.

Conversely, a person who lives in the midst of the economic and educational deprivation originally created by racists are understandably angered when they’re told there is no racism present when powerful people repeatedly block reforms that would change the status quo. Justice fails when the same unjust outcomes are perpetuated, even though the newest generation of elites may possess different intent.

So how is a Christian to respond? First, let’s go back to scripture and recognize that the obligation to “act justly” is intergenerational. If there is injustice that predates our personal power, it is still our obligation to do what we can to set it right. Second, when you see these racist structures at work, you recognize that you need sociology, history, and economics to help understand not just their reality, but their remedy.

“Sola scriptura” doesn’t tell us how we should zone our communities, district our schools, or protect civil rights. Indeed, there’s an entire Christian doctrine of common grace that teaches us that truth can come from many sources. Even those “conservatives” who resist David Platt likely understand this in their daily lives. Is it the case that we can rely on non-Christian wisdom in, say, military strategy, trade policy, and law enforcement tactics, but when trying to untangle the effects of centuries of racial oppression, the Bible alone will be our guide?

Now for a note about conservatism. I simply don’t grant that the dissenters' objections to Platt are “conservative.” Right-wing, yes. Conservative? I object. Years ago, my friend Rod Dreher wrote that “the business of a conservatism with integrity is not to impose an idealistic ideological narrative on reality but rather to try to see the world as it is and respond to its challenges within the limits of what we know about human nature.”

I love that framing. Applied to race, it means that when we discern “the world as it is” (complete with understanding the structures that racists built) the policies a conservative might propose will be different than those of a progressive, in part because conservatives often (but not always) have a different view of human nature and human frailty than their friends on the left.

In other words, a conservative might have a different conception of “what works.” Progressive-dominated institutions haven’t cracked the code. Can conservative ideas do any better?

A conservative like me is suspicious of the effectiveness of central planning to ameliorate systemic injustice. I’m less likely to want to pour money into vast, centralized public school bureaucracies and more likely to empower school choice to grant families options in the short term and to provide competitive incentives for public schools to improve over the long term.

With regards to zoning, I’m more likely to suggest that property owners should be granted more economic freedom and that limits on multi-family housing are perpetuated by limiting people’s freedom to buy and develop land. The balance between planning and property rights should tilt more towards liberty. NIMBYism exists in part because government authorities sometimes control my backyard more than I do.

When it comes to inequities in policing, a conservative should double down on the Bill of Rights and seek to restore the original, expressed intent of America’s civil rights laws, which were explicitly designed to grant victims financial compensation when the state violates their rights.

Regardless of my ideology, the objective is justice. It’s not “conservative” justice or “progressive” justice. It’s simply justice. So if my ideology leads me astray, and the solutions I propose are inadequate to the enormity of the task, it’s my moral obligation to rethink my philosophical frame.

Finally, it is vital to approach the immense challenge of racial justice with an extraordinary amount of humility. Christians should not be so easily triggered by words that sound “progressive” or which they believe might be “inspired by CRT.” A movement that long derided the “snowflakes” on the other side now reacts as if allegedly offensive pastoral word choice is a microaggression all its own.

Moreover, no one person—no matter how intellectually or spiritually formidable—has discerned the single best way for our nation to “act justly” after so very many years of oppression. So approaching this topic requires grace. Every one of us will be wrong to some degree.

But even in the midst of all this complexity, some things are still clearly true. We still live with the legacy of the discriminatory structures our forefathers created. Our obligation to seek justice does not depend on a finding of personal fault. Christians must be open to truth from any source. And there is nothing—absolutely nothing—“conservative” about denying the reality of the consequences of centuries of intentional, racist harm.

One last thing …

This song is new, it’s from two of my favorite Christian artists, and it’s powerful. I hope it blesses you like it blessed me.


French has often been correct, but unfortunately today, often wrong. He’s wrong here. He’s changed his stripes because his followers are no longer conservative. Ie: he’s simply selling his audience what they want.

Don’t believe me? Read his article in 2017 saying the exact opposite of his Dispatch opinion.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/r ... privilege/
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