Is America a racist nation?

[runrussellrun]

You tell me.

“Discrimination can be hard to document when it is a function of a person’s (often unstated) opinions and attitudes. However, with respect to real estate transactions, it is painfully clear in at least one respect: County real property records contain all the information regarding transfers and covenants against properties located within the county. As a result, if a property has ever been subject to racially discriminatory covenants, then it is a matter of record with the county.”

https://mrsc.org/Home/Stay-Informed/MRS ... ctive.aspx

Interesting that the needle has, once again, been pointed as the tired "us" vs "them" narrative.

This post, the very FIRST post, is from the State of Washington. (and easily findable proof that the oligarchy/WASP types, really run the show.

Washington State was never, on paper , a slave state....and the focus on the civil war, ending some three decades before this topics FIRST post even became a state, when it comes to "racism" is odd. Human bondage was about profit. Pure and simple.

Racim?

It's pretend Olympic tyme....can't wait to see all the dark skinned people hurdling for Japan. Or Diving for China.

This is a lacrosse thread.........and not one word about the economic "put downs" our wonderful sport, including the recent "rich kid" world event of joke youth lacrosse series. I have mentioned it before....the hate spewed towards native kids at lacrosse tournaments.

No one cares, not mentioned once, anywhere, on these pages. Pathetic.

Instead......ban, umm......"trolls"....huh??!?!?!?!

Actually, this is the politics section. It’s helpfully labelled as such at the top of the page.

If you read through the posts you will find discussion of the “boarding schools” whose purpose was to eliminate Native culture.

geez......politics thread...on a larosse website.

Feel better?

And NO.....not one mention, about the abuse that native kids get at tournaments.

How many Natives in the USA lacrosse hall of lame? Kyle Harrison, still not eligible due to time?

exactly

systemic racism, lacrosse lives it . the NLF tourney in Amherst........any of you witness and watch players of "color" or other 'races" ?

Once again, not reading any solutions, just a lot of finger pointing. yawn.

[Matnum PI]

Exactly. I'd want to know a tad more than simply 'he owned slaves' before making that call, but if he didn't have some very major redeeming qualities, maybe it's simply 'times up' for that name to be changed.

I think a big part of people's issue with this stuff is that some people are uncomfortable with being uncomfortable. And, substantially more often than not, real change doesn't happen without discomfort. Stop drinking, lose weight, etc. It's uncomfortable. And... That's OK. America may need to be uncomfortable for little while.

[cradleandshoot]

"Except that NO ONE (I can shout too) is arguing on behalf of CRT being a silver bullet for anything. That's pure and simple scare BS made up to pander to bigots and the uneducated."

How on earth does this basic fact keep eluding people? No one is teaching or proposing to teach "Critical Race Theory" in public elementary, middle and high schools.

You have to take your point of view to your party. The Republicans have taken CRT and rolled it up into a club and are at present beating your party into submission over it. Your party does not have the slightest clue as to how to defend themselves. Your telling me that those dumb ass Republicans don't understand what you really mean. Your on the defensive right now coming into the 2022 elections. I'm stunned right now that you Democrats are running around in circles biting at your tails with zero comprehension why you all are so vulnerable. I know.. blame it on trump.

Your view of "my party" is so jaundiced and wrong that it is impossible to really respond. Most of my party is laughing at the GOP, when we are not disgusted with it, because this is what they have reduced themselves to: manufacturing a grievance or a fear that adheres to white folks to hold our base. It's actually sad. Jordan, for example, has been in Congress for 14 years, and has yet to start or sponsor or co-sponsor any successful legislation. He's loud, rude, offensive and he doesn't wear a jacket. This is "today's GOP -- keeping our jobs by keeping you scared (TM)"

FTR, I was registered as a Democrat in 1976. My first vote for POTUS was Jimmy Carter. I agree with you in one respect, both parties are working overtime to out scare the other party. When my mom, a lifelong Democrat turned her back on your party that spoke volumes to me how fouled up your party is. But hey, what do I know?

[seacoaster]

"Except that NO ONE (I can shout too) is arguing on behalf of CRT being a silver bullet for anything. That's pure and simple scare BS made up to pander to bigots and the uneducated."

How on earth does this basic fact keep eluding people? No one is teaching or proposing to teach "Critical Race Theory" in public elementary, middle and high schools.

You have to take your point of view to your party. The Republicans have taken CRT and rolled it up into a club and are at present beating your party into submission over it. Your party does not have the slightest clue as to how to defend themselves. Your telling me that those dumb ass Republicans don't understand what you really mean. Your on the defensive right now coming into the 2022 elections. I'm stunned right now that you Democrats are running around in circles biting at your tails with zero comprehension why you all are so vulnerable. I know.. blame it on trump.

Your view of "my party" is so jaundiced and wrong that it is impossible to really respond. Most of my party is laughing at the GOP, when we are not disgusted with it, because this is what they have reduced themselves to: manufacturing a grievance or a fear that adheres to white folks to hold our base. It's actually sad. Jordan, for example, has been in Congress for 14 years, and has yet to start or sponsor or co-sponsor any successful legislation. He's loud, rude, offensive and he doesn't wear a jacket. This is "today's GOP -- keeping our jobs by keeping you scared (TM)"

FTR, I was registered as a Democrat in 1976. My first vote for POTUS was Jimmy Carter. I agree with you in one respect, both parties are working overtime to out scare the other party. When my mom, a lifelong Democrat turned her back on your party that spoke volumes to me how fouled up your party is. But hey, what do I know?

My mother was a Republican who voted for Ike, Kennedy (he was Irish; she had to) and Nixon in 1968, and then became a committed and involved Democrat for the rest of her life, which ended in April at 97 years old. She realized that Republicans don't protect the vulnerable, don't protect the environment, don't work to level institutionalized and entrenched imbalances in opportunity, and, in the last Obama term and the Trump years, didn't care about the democracy for which her three brothers fought, and for which her childhood pal, Pete Schultz, gave his life on Saipan. What do I know? Your mom made a mistake. It happens.

[youthathletics]

"Except that NO ONE (I can shout too) is arguing on behalf of CRT being a silver bullet for anything. That's pure and simple scare BS made up to pander to bigots and the uneducated."

How on earth does this basic fact keep eluding people? No one is teaching or proposing to teach "Critical Race Theory" in public elementary, middle and high schools.

You have to take your point of view to your party. The Republicans have taken CRT and rolled it up into a club and are at present beating your party into submission over it. Your party does not have the slightest clue as to how to defend themselves. Your telling me that those dumb ass Republicans don't understand what you really mean. Your on the defensive right now coming into the 2022 elections. I'm stunned right now that you Democrats are running around in circles biting at your tails with zero comprehension why you all are so vulnerable. I know.. blame it on trump.

Your view of "my party" is so jaundiced and wrong that it is impossible to really respond. Most of my party is laughing at the GOP, when we are not disgusted with it, because this is what they have reduced themselves to: manufacturing a grievance or a fear that adheres to white folks to hold our base. It's actually sad. Jordan, for example, has been in Congress for 14 years, and has yet to start or sponsor or co-sponsor any successful legislation. He's loud, rude, offensive and he doesn't wear a jacket. This is "today's GOP -- keeping our jobs by keeping you scared (TM)"

FTR, I was registered as a Democrat in 1976. My first vote for POTUS was Jimmy Carter. I agree with you in one respect, both parties are working overtime to out scare the other party. When my mom, a lifelong Democrat turned her back on your party that spoke volumes to me how fouled up your party is. But hey, what do I know?

My mother was a Republican who voted for Ike, Kennedy (he was Irish; she had to) and Nixon in 1968, and then became a committed and involved Democrat for the rest of her life, which ended in April at 97 years old. She realized that Republicans don't protect the vulnerable, don't protect the environment, don't work to level institutionalized and entrenched imbalances in opportunity, and, in the last Obama term and the Trump years, didn't care about the democracy for which her three brothers fought, and for which her childhood pal, Pete Schultz, gave his life on Saipan. What do I know? Your mom made a mistake. It happens.

While you two are measuring the length of your junk, the obvious is right in front of you.....we are both 'equally' screwed and the infighting is exactly what they want.

Insert Rodney Kind comment...again.

[seacoaster]

Measuring junk? Hardly. I am trying to help this guy.

Rodney King? Do you get stoned in the middle of the day? Seriously, it's OK if you do; just looking for some overall explanation.

[youthathletics]

It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.

We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !

Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN.

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. Love ya!

Except that NO ONE (I can shout too) is arguing on behalf of CRT being a silver bullet for anything. That's pure and simple scare BS made up to pander to bigots and the uneducated.

That's the problem, youth, you actually appear to believe this BS from right wing media...I have no doubt about your heart on this, and really liked your view on empathy (etc), but you seem to buy into the notion that there's some threat about teaching history fully, rather than pretending stuff didn't happen, is somehow the 'divisive' thing tearing our country apart...nope, 'times up' is a constant process of improvement.

It's uncomfortable, but all progress is uncomfortable.

I believe one thing and one thing only......I do not believe for one minute, that our public school system and teachers unions, have the ability to create a curriculum that will be appropriately disseminated on CRT....period, full stop.

Where the hell you get the idea I believe the BS from right wing media or threat of CRT is beyond me.....I assume you have been studying how to subtly gaslight people, or maybe its just easier for you to label people, rather than seek first to understand.

As we (collectively here) have already discussed, they (our k-12 educators) can barely get teaching the history of the civil war cleanly across the board....so much so that even educated people on this thread are entrenched in nuance.

[youthathletics]

Measuring junk? Hardly. I am trying to help this guy.

Rodney King? Do you get stoned in the middle of the day? Seriously, it's OK if you do; just looking for some overall explanation.

...yea okay.
"Can't we all just get along". Sometimes I wished seacoaster.....damned company drug tests us.

[Peter Brown]

I’m not one to lay my life out on any public forum, and I realize some here constantly say I troll, which I don’t, but whatever. I am sure if most of us hung out at a bar or on a boat, we’d all get along fine. That’s my disclaimer for what I’m about to say, cause I know some of you will simply read this and claim I am more of an mother effer than before, but again, whatever.

I have been on a history kick of late, reading many books by Meacham, Chesnow, etc. I started on a 1776 kick, and now am all about the Civil War. I thought I knew my history; now I realize I know nothing.

Here, Cradleandshoot writes the most effective posts on the topic of racism (not all of them, but most of them), primarily because he’s not hard and fast set on any narrative. He makes room for nuance. Most of us ought to do the same.

Because I’ve been reading up on 1776 and the Civil War, I dug deep into my own family’s past, which I certainly knew of, but I drilled down much deeper than before. Matnum says this makes us uncomfortable, but I don’t think so. I look at my own family’s past quite clinically, detached from anything bad (or even good) they did. I didn’t even know my own grandparents, let alone six generations back. Any wealth my family inherited was fully incinerated by 1920 when a grandparent went to prison for bootlegging and lost everything. Karma perhaps.

My fathers side of the family owned 311 slaves at one point, a farm, the plantation house now a National Historic site. I’ve really dug into the records on this. I’m not proud of what they did, nor do I walk around ashamed. They lived a long time ago, it’s only father’s side, with standards that no longer exist and for which today we have no connection to. We can see how awful the institution of slavery was, but most of those people then were victims of their era, unaware and unable to see humanity as it is.

No one today is responsible for the sins of their great X 6 grandparents. Like I said, it is what is is.

I have gone through and dug up the court records of the farm and the slaves; some escaped, some did not, all were set free by 1856. If a slave at this home ‘escaped’, there was a family employee who went to the US District Court and got a warrant of arrest for that person. It’s awful, but it is history. I have dozens of these records now. I have reconstructed with others the life at this plantation, to try to see what life was, for all there, not simply my father’s ancestors but also the slaves. I have their names, their surnames at least, and we can trace some of their lineage to today.

This does not make me uncomfortable, Matnum. I want to know what happened. It’s not healthy to not know. But I also think it’s unhealthy to live your ancestors faults with each passing breath today. You might disagree. And I would respect you for disagreeing, but I would find it difficult to be productive if I did.

And for the record, my mom’s family was a dirt poor French family who came to America right at the turn of the 20th century, with nothing to their name other than one change of clothing and an intense work ethic.

[seacoaster]

Measuring junk? Hardly. I am trying to help this guy.

Rodney King? Do you get stoned in the middle of the day? Seriously, it's OK if you do; just looking for some overall explanation.

...yea okay.
"Can't we all just get along". Sometimes I wished seacoaster.....damned company drug tests us.

DMac may have a work around.

[seacoaster]

I’m not one to lay my life out on any public forum, and I realize some here constantly say I troll, which I don’t, but whatever. I am sure if most of us hung out at a bar or on a boat, we’d all get along fine. That’s my disclaimer for what I’m about to say, cause I know some of you will simply read this and claim I am more of an mother effer than before, but again, whatever.

I have been on a history kick of late, reading many books by Meacham, Chesnow, etc. I started on a 1776 kick, and now am all about the Civil War. I thought I knew my history; now I realize I know nothing.

Here, Cradleandshoot writes the most effective posts on the topic of racism (not all of them, but most of them), primarily because he’s not hard and fast set on any narrative. He makes room for nuance. Most of us ought to do the same.

Because I’ve been reading up on 1776 and the Civil War, I dug deep into my own family’s past, which I certainly knew of, but I drilled down much deeper than before. Matnum says this makes us uncomfortable, but I don’t think so. I look at my own family’s past quite clinically, detached from anything bad (or even good) they did. I didn’t even know my own grandparents, let alone six generations back. Any wealth my family inherited was fully incinerated by 1920 when a grandparent went to prison for bootlegging and lost everything. Karma perhaps.

My fathers side of the family owned 311 slaves at one point, a farm, the plantation house now a National Historic site. I’ve really dug into the records on this. I’m not proud of what they did, nor do I walk around ashamed. They lived a long time ago, it’s only father’s side, with standards that no longer exist and for which today we have no connection to. We can see how awful the institution of slavery was, but most of those people then were victims of their era, unaware and unable to see humanity as it is.

No one today is responsible for the sins of their great X 6 grandparents. Like I said, it is what is is.

I have gone through and dug up the court records of the farm and the slaves; some escaped, some did not, all were set free by 1856. If a slave at this home ‘escaped’, there was a family employee who went to the US District Court and got a warrant of arrest for that person. It’s awful, but it is history. I have dozens of these records now. I have reconstructed with others the life at this plantation, to try to see what life was, for all there, not simply my father’s ancestors but also the slaves. I have their names, their surnames at least, and we can trace some of their lineage to today.

This does not make me uncomfortable, Matnum. I want to know what happened. It’s not healthy to not know. But I also think it’s unhealthy to live your ancestors faults with each passing breath today. You might disagree. And I would respect you for disagreeing, but I would find it difficult to be productive if I did.

And for the record, my mom’s family was a dirt poor French family who came to America right at the turn of the 20th century, with nothing to their name other than one change of clothing and an intense work ethic.

Interesting post, and frankly appreciated. You do troll, and this post is a breath of relatively fresh air.

I will comment -- to the extent you care, something about which I am doubtful -- about a couple of the statements you make, because the reflect sentiments widely and I think erroneously shared by folks.

You say you are neither proud nor ashamed. Exactly, no one is asking for shame. You say that the sins of the great, great etc., grandfather should not be visited on you. The reckoning people are looking for, and advocating for in some circles, is not, rightly delivered and understood, seeking to personally shame anyone, or visit on them personally a retribution. No reasonable person is asking you to "live your ancestor's fault...each passing day." I for one am deeply uneasy about talk of reparations, the allocation of which would be insufficient to many, speculative, and maybe even harmful to some. What most of the people you regularly mock as "woke" and other standards of RW code-parlance are looking for is recognition -- that it really happened, that it was worse than we can now imagine, that it really hurt then and hurts now, that it impedes us from advancing as a society that is actually, really founded in brotherhood, kindness, justice and opportunity. We cannot call this -- fairly -- the land of opportunity when 30% or more have a snowball's chance at the moment of birth.

[MDlaxfan76]

It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.

We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !

Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN.

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. Love ya!

Except that NO ONE (I can shout too) is arguing on behalf of CRT being a silver bullet for anything. That's pure and simple scare BS made up to pander to bigots and the uneducated.

That's the problem, youth, you actually appear to believe this BS from right wing media...I have no doubt about your heart on this, and really liked your view on empathy (etc), but you seem to buy into the notion that there's some threat about teaching history fully, rather than pretending stuff didn't happen, is somehow the 'divisive' thing tearing our country apart...nope, 'times up' is a constant process of improvement.

It's uncomfortable, but all progress is uncomfortable.

I believe one thing and one thing only......I do not believe for one minute, that our public school system and teachers unions, have the ability to create a curriculum that will be appropriately disseminated on CRT....period, full stop.

Where the hell you get the idea I believe the BS from right wing media or threat of CRT is beyond me.....I assume you have been studying how to subtly gaslight people, or maybe its just easier for you to label people, rather than seek first to understand.

As we (collectively here) have already discussed, they (our k-12 educators) can barely get teaching the history of the civil war cleanly across the board....so much so that even educated people on this thread are entrenched in nuance.

Stop. No one, absolutely no one WANTS to do what I've bolded above.
CRT is not for HS, much less below.
Period. Full stop.

Teaching US History isn't CRT, never was, nor should be.
But expecting good teaching of US History darn well should be doable by US History teachers...and it ain't nuance to teach that the Civil War was because of slavery...at least not to a US History teacher...yet these numb buts don't want teachers to teach that...just as they've not wanted them to do so for decades.

[MDlaxfan76]

I’m not one to lay my life out on any public forum, and I realize some here constantly say I troll, which I don’t, but whatever. I am sure if most of us hung out at a bar or on a boat, we’d all get along fine. That’s my disclaimer for what I’m about to say, cause I know some of you will simply read this and claim I am more of an mother effer than before, but again, whatever.

I have been on a history kick of late, reading many books by Meacham, Chesnow, etc. I started on a 1776 kick, and now am all about the Civil War. I thought I knew my history; now I realize I know nothing.

Here, Cradleandshoot writes the most effective posts on the topic of racism (not all of them, but most of them), primarily because he’s not hard and fast set on any narrative. He makes room for nuance. Most of us ought to do the same.

Because I’ve been reading up on 1776 and the Civil War, I dug deep into my own family’s past, which I certainly knew of, but I drilled down much deeper than before. Matnum says this makes us uncomfortable, but I don’t think so. I look at my own family’s past quite clinically, detached from anything bad (or even good) they did. I didn’t even know my own grandparents, let alone six generations back. Any wealth my family inherited was fully incinerated by 1920 when a grandparent went to prison for bootlegging and lost everything. Karma perhaps.

My fathers side of the family owned 311 slaves at one point, a farm, the plantation house now a National Historic site. I’ve really dug into the records on this. I’m not proud of what they did, nor do I walk around ashamed. They lived a long time ago, it’s only father’s side, with standards that no longer exist and for which today we have no connection to. We can see how awful the institution of slavery was, but most of those people then were victims of their era, unaware and unable to see humanity as it is.

No one today is responsible for the sins of their great X 6 grandparents. Like I said, it is what is is.

I have gone through and dug up the court records of the farm and the slaves; some escaped, some did not, all were set free by 1856. If a slave at this home ‘escaped’, there was a family employee who went to the US District Court and got a warrant of arrest for that person. It’s awful, but it is history. I have dozens of these records now. I have reconstructed with others the life at this plantation, to try to see what life was, for all there, not simply my father’s ancestors but also the slaves. I have their names, their surnames at least, and we can trace some of their lineage to today.

This does not make me uncomfortable, Matnum. I want to know what happened. It’s not healthy to not know. But I also think it’s unhealthy to live your ancestors faults with each passing breath today. You might disagree. And I would respect you for disagreeing, but I would find it difficult to be productive if I did.

And for the record, my mom’s family was a dirt poor French family who came to America right at the turn of the 20th century, with nothing to their name other than one change of clothing and an intense work ethic.

Interesting post, and frankly appreciated. You do troll, and this post is a breath of relatively fresh air.

I will comment -- to the extent you care, something about which I am doubtful -- about a couple of the statements you make, because the reflect sentiments widely and I think erroneously shared by folks.

You say you are neither proud nor ashamed. Exactly, no one is asking for shame. You say that the sins of the great, great etc., grandfather should not be visited on you. The reckoning people are looking for, and advocating for in some circles, is not, rightly delivered and understood, seeking to personally shame anyone, or visit on them personally a retribution. No reasonable person is asking you to "live your ancestor's fault...each passing day." I for one am deeply uneasy about talk of reparations, the allocation of which would be insufficient to many, speculative, and maybe even harmful to some. What most of the people you regularly mock as "woke" and other standards of RW code-parlance are looking for is recognition -- that it really happened, that it was worse than we can now imagine, that it really hurt then and hurts now, that it impedes us from advancing as a society that is actually, really founded in brotherhood, kindness, justice and opportunity. We cannot call this -- fairly -- the land of opportunity when 30% or more have a snowball's chance at the moment of birth.

Indeed interesting.
And you've correctly identified, IMO, the exact problem with the perspective Petey's espousing...the assumption that people want him to be ashamed...maybe there are some whack jobs to be found who actually want that, but the vast majority of us just want there to be an honest understanding of what's happened and why that still matters today, indeed is persistent today.

Unlike Petey, I haven't been reluctant previously to share my family's background, relevant to this topic, from KKK in Louisiana on one side to slaveowners in southern Maryland on the other. Like Petey's situation, my dad's side lost their wealth when my great grand dad, a doctor with the embassy in Japan at turn of century, died on his way back to the US with his son, my grandad at age 9. The son became a bootlegger, lost his 'fortune' in a fire on the Old Bayliner he chief purser on, saved twenty people from drowning but the safe went to the bottom of the Chesapeake. Became an alcoholic.

Do I feel any guilt or shame about my various ancestors' involvement in slavery or Jim Crow? Of course not. Has anyone ever made me feel as I should? Nope. Do I feel a call to reckon with it, though? You betcha.

Glad to see you grappling with it, Petey.
But really, reckoning with our history doesn't require personal guilt or shame...don't create monsters in the closet, they're not there.

[Peter Brown]

I’m not one to lay my life out on any public forum, and I realize some here constantly say I troll, which I don’t, but whatever. I am sure if most of us hung out at a bar or on a boat, we’d all get along fine. That’s my disclaimer for what I’m about to say, cause I know some of you will simply read this and claim I am more of an mother effer than before, but again, whatever.

I have been on a history kick of late, reading many books by Meacham, Chesnow, etc. I started on a 1776 kick, and now am all about the Civil War. I thought I knew my history; now I realize I know nothing.

Here, Cradleandshoot writes the most effective posts on the topic of racism (not all of them, but most of them), primarily because he’s not hard and fast set on any narrative. He makes room for nuance. Most of us ought to do the same.

Because I’ve been reading up on 1776 and the Civil War, I dug deep into my own family’s past, which I certainly knew of, but I drilled down much deeper than before. Matnum says this makes us uncomfortable, but I don’t think so. I look at my own family’s past quite clinically, detached from anything bad (or even good) they did. I didn’t even know my own grandparents, let alone six generations back. Any wealth my family inherited was fully incinerated by 1920 when a grandparent went to prison for bootlegging and lost everything. Karma perhaps.

My fathers side of the family owned 311 slaves at one point, a farm, the plantation house now a National Historic site. I’ve really dug into the records on this. I’m not proud of what they did, nor do I walk around ashamed. They lived a long time ago, it’s only father’s side, with standards that no longer exist and for which today we have no connection to. We can see how awful the institution of slavery was, but most of those people then were victims of their era, unaware and unable to see humanity as it is.

No one today is responsible for the sins of their great X 6 grandparents. Like I said, it is what is is.

I have gone through and dug up the court records of the farm and the slaves; some escaped, some did not, all were set free by 1856. If a slave at this home ‘escaped’, there was a family employee who went to the US District Court and got a warrant of arrest for that person. It’s awful, but it is history. I have dozens of these records now. I have reconstructed with others the life at this plantation, to try to see what life was, for all there, not simply my father’s ancestors but also the slaves. I have their names, their surnames at least, and we can trace some of their lineage to today.

This does not make me uncomfortable, Matnum. I want to know what happened. It’s not healthy to not know. But I also think it’s unhealthy to live your ancestors faults with each passing breath today. You might disagree. And I would respect you for disagreeing, but I would find it difficult to be productive if I did.

And for the record, my mom’s family was a dirt poor French family who came to America right at the turn of the 20th century, with nothing to their name other than one change of clothing and an intense work ethic.

Interesting post, and frankly appreciated. You do troll, and this post is a breath of relatively fresh air.

I will comment -- to the extent you care, something about which I am doubtful -- about a couple of the statements you make, because the reflect sentiments widely and I think erroneously shared by folks.

You say you are neither proud nor ashamed. Exactly, no one is asking for shame. You say that the sins of the great, great etc., grandfather should not be visited on you. The reckoning people are looking for, and advocating for in some circles, is not, rightly delivered and understood, seeking to personally shame anyone, or visit on them personally a retribution. No reasonable person is asking you to "live your ancestor's fault...each passing day." I for one am deeply uneasy about talk of reparations, the allocation of which would be insufficient to many, speculative, and maybe even harmful to some. What most of the people you regularly mock as "woke" and other standards of RW code-parlance are looking for is recognition -- that it really happened, that it was worse than we can now imagine, that it really hurt then and hurts now, that it impedes us from advancing as a society that is actually, really founded in brotherhood, kindness, justice and opportunity. We cannot call this -- fairly -- the land of opportunity when 30% or more have a snowball's chance at the moment of birth.

I do care and I do appreciate your and MD’s replies. I’ll think over your comments. It’s a complicated topic and difficult to get to any resolution.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I’m not one to lay my life out on any public forum, and I realize some here constantly say I troll, which I don’t, but whatever. I am sure if most of us hung out at a bar or on a boat, we’d all get along fine. That’s my disclaimer for what I’m about to say, cause I know some of you will simply read this and claim I am more of an mother effer than before, but again, whatever.

I have been on a history kick of late, reading many books by Meacham, Chesnow, etc. I started on a 1776 kick, and now am all about the Civil War. I thought I knew my history; now I realize I know nothing.

Here, Cradleandshoot writes the most effective posts on the topic of racism (not all of them, but most of them), primarily because he’s not hard and fast set on any narrative. He makes room for nuance. Most of us ought to do the same.

Because I’ve been reading up on 1776 and the Civil War, I dug deep into my own family’s past, which I certainly knew of, but I drilled down much deeper than before. Matnum says this makes us uncomfortable, but I don’t think so. I look at my own family’s past quite clinically, detached from anything bad (or even good) they did. I didn’t even know my own grandparents, let alone six generations back. Any wealth my family inherited was fully incinerated by 1920 when a grandparent went to prison for bootlegging and lost everything. Karma perhaps.

My fathers side of the family owned 311 slaves at one point, a farm, the plantation house now a National Historic site. I’ve really dug into the records on this. I’m not proud of what they did, nor do I walk around ashamed. They lived a long time ago, it’s only father’s side, with standards that no longer exist and for which today we have no connection to. We can see how awful the institution of slavery was, but most of those people then were victims of their era, unaware and unable to see humanity as it is.

No one today is responsible for the sins of their great X 6 grandparents. Like I said, it is what is is.

I have gone through and dug up the court records of the farm and the slaves; some escaped, some did not, all were set free by 1856. If a slave at this home ‘escaped’, there was a family employee who went to the US District Court and got a warrant of arrest for that person. It’s awful, but it is history. I have dozens of these records now. I have reconstructed with others the life at this plantation, to try to see what life was, for all there, not simply my father’s ancestors but also the slaves. I have their names, their surnames at least, and we can trace some of their lineage to today.

This does not make me uncomfortable, Matnum. I want to know what happened. It’s not healthy to not know. But I also think it’s unhealthy to live your ancestors faults with each passing breath today. You might disagree. And I would respect you for disagreeing, but I would find it difficult to be productive if I did.

And for the record, my mom’s family was a dirt poor French family who came to America right at the turn of the 20th century, with nothing to their name other than one change of clothing and an intense work ethic.

Interesting post, and frankly appreciated. You do troll, and this post is a breath of relatively fresh air.

I will comment -- to the extent you care, something about which I am doubtful -- about a couple of the statements you make, because the reflect sentiments widely and I think erroneously shared by folks.

You say you are neither proud nor ashamed. Exactly, no one is asking for shame. You say that the sins of the great, great etc., grandfather should not be visited on you. The reckoning people are looking for, and advocating for in some circles, is not, rightly delivered and understood, seeking to personally shame anyone, or visit on them personally a retribution. No reasonable person is asking you to "live your ancestor's fault...each passing day." I for one am deeply uneasy about talk of reparations, the allocation of which would be insufficient to many, speculative, and maybe even harmful to some. What most of the people you regularly mock as "woke" and other standards of RW code-parlance are looking for is recognition -- that it really happened, that it was worse than we can now imagine, that it really hurt then and hurts now, that it impedes us from advancing as a society that is actually, really founded in brotherhood, kindness, justice and opportunity. We cannot call this -- fairly -- the land of opportunity when 30% or more have a snowball's chance at the moment of birth.

Indeed interesting.
And you've correctly identified, IMO, the exact problem with the perspective Petey's espousing...the assumption that people want him to be ashamed...maybe there are some whack jobs to be found who actually want that, but the vast majority of us just want there to be an honest understanding of what's happened and why that still matters today, indeed is persistent today.

Unlike Petey, I haven't been reluctant previously to share my family's background, relevant to this topic, from KKK in Louisiana on one side to slaveowners in southern Maryland on the other. Like Petey's situation, my dad's side lost their wealth when my great grand dad, a doctor with the embassy in Japan at turn of century, died on his way back to the US with his son, my grandad at age 9. The son became a bootlegger, lost his 'fortune' in a fire on the Old Bayliner he chief purser on, saved twenty people from drowning but the safe went to the bottom of the Chesapeake. Became an alcoholic.

Do I feel any guilt or shame about my various ancestors' involvement in slavery or Jim Crow? Of course not. Has anyone ever made me feel as I should? Nope. Do I feel a call to reckon with it, though? You betcha.

Glad to see you grappling with it, Petey.
But really, reckoning with our history doesn't require personal guilt or shame...don't create monsters in the closet, they're not there.

I have a friend that feels like Petey…I told him the beef is with state and federal government policies along with institutions…I asked him why does he take it personally? He really doesn’t have an answer. I told him he acts like if he acknowledges anything it will diminish what he has accomplished.

[Kismet]

It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.

We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !

Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN.

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. Love ya!

Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?

I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.

Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776


You might see some parallels to current political divide.

[cradleandshoot]

It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.

We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !

Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN.

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. Love ya!

Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?

I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.

Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776


You might see some parallels to current political divide.

Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.

[Typical Lax Dad]

It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.

We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !

Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN.

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. Love ya!

Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?

I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.

Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776


You might see some parallels to current political divide.

Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.

A lot you don’t know…..

[cradleandshoot]

It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.

We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !

Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN.

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. Love ya!

Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?

I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.

Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776


You might see some parallels to current political divide.

Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.

A lot you don’t know…..

I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time?

[MDlaxfan76]

It seems you all are talking past each other.

Currently, we all know, that racial inequality is really-really stupid and frowned upon, why? Well, because we have moved on, grown up, are much more civilized and educated. We now realize, thanks to a select few in our history that recognized this and fought to right a moral wrong. But at the time, it was second nature....it was what the entire work did, dating back to the barbary coast where Jefferson fought.

Point being, it seems many are attempting to apply hindsight to an era of people that were really just recent graduates of Neanderthals. Slavery was status quo, then America grew up, to which we should be thankful.

Insert Rodney King quote here.

We still have quite a lot of "growing up" to go, "youth".
Or do you still think those 'good' folks in khakis and polos carrying torches in Charlottesville were just fringe nut jobs?

I mean seriously, kids can't learn that the Civil War was due to slavery???
Can't learn about Jim Crow??? Can't learn about Tulsa?

"replacement theory"???

CRT, CRT !

Not one person is arguing we are done, its over, problem solved....it NEVER will be solved.

There are always gong to be idiots in this world....just turn on CNN.

They already learn about slavery, have been for half a century, and somehow CRT is the silver bullet.....GMAFB.

The idea I posed earlier this week about teaching empathy, etc-etc, will go far further than hoping some goth teacher who works part-time on weekends with antifa or a bald white man teacher in a wife-beater smoking marlboro reds holding meetings in his basement about white power are going to get the CRT message accurate is ludicrous thinking. God forbid the teacher went to dartmouth and confuses them with lengthy dissertations that make their head spin. Love ya!

Instead of teaching CRT, which again and to be very clear is not simply about racism or slavery, but instead is a Marxist recasting of society, schools should focus on STEM and arts courses, helping every kid become more productive and happy. Having real skills (I count art here too) enables any young child to be a net positive to society; anyone is happier with a real skill.

I’m reading a book now about the civil war, and like any good book enthusiast, I go to Wikipedia to get more information on events and people the book presumes one knows more about. Last night, I dug into John Brown and the raid at Harpers Ferry. Harriet Tubman thought John Brown was the best white American person in America, far more than Lincoln. Brown was also a multi dimensional character, neither pure hero nor pure lunatic.

I won’t debate that. What I wanted to tell the board is John Brown and his family (he lost 2 sons at the raid) is buried near Lake Placid NY, summer lax central. His body was taken from West Virginia to upstate ny, and the trip was revealing about America then. Near you, Cradle. I’m thinking no one objects to that name on a school?

I never knew John Brown was buried near Lake Placid. Lake Placid is a beautiful if not way too politically correct town. I've been there twice and never once felt welcome among the FLP ambiance that pervades the village. Forget the FLP attitude and move your party up the road to Lake George.

Historically speaking, the Federal military response to Brown/Harper's Ferry occupation was to detail a contingent of 100 U.S. Marines from Washington DC navy yard under the direct command of Lt. Israel Greene. Overall command of the military operation was Col. Robert E. Lee USA. His first order upon his arrival was to request that Brown surrender immediately. This message was delivered by his adjutant - one Lt. J.E.B Stuart USA. After the request was refused, Col. Lee ordered the Marines to assault the building and capture or kill all of the people inside. Two were killed and the rest captured including John Brown.

Ironically, Lt. Greene, who was born in Plattsburg NY, later resigned his commission and fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

Bet none of you were ever taught any of this in HS except perhaps that Lee was in overall command. The only reason Lee got the call because he was in Arlington VA off-duty at his home across the river and the highest ranking US Army regular military officer available to assume command. Because he was technically on leave and was ordered to take a train directly from his home to the armory, he did not have access to a uniform and directed the entire operation in civilian clothing.

For those expressing interest in historical reading from the period, I'd recommend a new book on the politics of the 1840s-50s by. Dr. Joanne Freeman of Yale entitled of Field of Blood - Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776


You might see some parallels to current political divide.

Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that. The book sounds like a good read.

A lot you don’t know…..

I can easily say the same about you. I do understand that there is a lot that you don't know. The difference is I'm willing to admit what I don't know. You might want to try it some time?

I'll bite.
With the caveat that any rational person knows that they don't know everything, indeed "the more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know", what exactly do you think TLD doesn't know or understand on this topic?

Where do you see a gap in his understanding or knowledge?
Is there something you think you know or understand that he doesn't?