njbill - 1 Minute (2 Day) Penalty

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

NJBill's penalty was nothing... I had a buddy in HS who was the leading scorer on the hockey team and never got a penalty. His plus/minus was excellent. Then, one game, he got a penalty and... He freaked out. Screamed at the ref how it wasn't a penalty, etc. Totally overreacted. That's how I see this Bill situation.

An accurate and appropriate comparison. Fully in agreement.

[DMac]

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote
One of the reasons LP sucked was all the admins and moderators running around dispensing justice according to their own whims and biases. I haven't seen that here.

How many years was that place that sucked around? How many posters? How many posts? Where did your Kingdom, LaxPower Back-Up Stick, draw its lifeblood from and model itself after? Yes, here at the Back-Up Stick it's supposedly gloves off, no holds barred, every man for himself, fight your own battles. Well, unless the game gets a little too rough for you, then you whine to Admin about the mob mentality and all the bullies who call you out. "Dispensing justice according to their own whims and biases" absolutely goes on here and those who stroke Admin get a pat on the head and gold star on their forehead. "I haven't seen that here", I have.

[Bart]

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote
One of the reasons LP sucked was all the admins and moderators running around dispensing justice according to their own whims and biases. I haven't seen that here.

How many years was that place that sucked around? How many posters? How many posts? Where did your Kingdom, LaxPower Back-Up Stick, draw its lifeblood from and model itself after? Yes, here at the Back-Up Stick it's supposedly gloves off, no holds barred, every man for himself, fight your own battles. Well, unless the game gets a little too rough for you, then you whine to Admin about the mob mentality and all the bullies who call you out. "Dispensing justice according to their own whims and biases" absolutely goes on here and those who stroke Admin get a pat on the head and gold star on their forehead. "I haven't seen that here", I have.

[MDlaxfan76]

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote
One of the reasons LP sucked was all the admins and moderators running around dispensing justice according to their own whims and biases. I haven't seen that here.

How many years was that place that sucked around? How many posters? How many posts? Where did your Kingdom, LaxPower Back-Up Stick, draw its lifeblood from and model itself after? Yes, here at the Back-Up Stick it's supposedly gloves off, no holds barred, every man for himself, fight your own battles. Well, unless the game gets a little too rough for you, then you whine to Admin about the mob mentality and all the bullies who call you out. "Dispensing justice according to their own whims and biases" absolutely goes on here and those who stroke Admin get a pat on the head and gold star on their forehead. "I haven't seen that here", I have.

Actually, DMac (while I agree with you about the trolling and am struggling to bite my tongue at some of this to which you refer-including just now on this thread), Hamsterdam is the only piece of FL that is supposed to be "no holds barred" etc.

There was lots of consultation on what we, the posters wanted...the result was a choice: unmoderated Hamsterdam or the area moderated, with an agreed upon light touch moderation and rules. We voted with our feet for at least some moderation. And we had input to those rules...still do, note the new one on trolling.

And this section is explicitly not "every man for himself", rather if a poster feels attacked or notices someone else being attacked they should report that for consideration to the Admin. Most of us are understandably loathe to whine about the attacks against us personally, but that shouldn't stop a fellow poster from alerting the Admin...the concept is to keep situations from blowing up.

If I had to critique Admin on this specific matter, it was indeed that a thorough read of the way this evolved does reveal a single poster constantly baiting others in ways that clearly upset them. Asked to stop doing so politely, he persisted. Politeness was forfeited from there, understandably...which is why I say "justified". Yet that same troller has a pattern of sounding like he's 100% on board with the rules and spirit intended, IMO falsely given the trolling.

I think, don't know, that the troller has changed his moniker, but not his approach. Ostensibly fair minded, he sounds like he's 100% in support of Admin, yet has been toxic. I think Admin has his work cut out for him if he's going to be able to throttle that toxicity. He's gonna need help.

On njbill's departure. I want him back.
But I agree that it was an overreaction to being flagged.

[DMac]

You're right MDlax, my bad, it did evolve from no holds barred initially to Hamsterdam and looser rules than that horrid LP place. Now posters can bash the hell out of players with no regard for parents, brothers, sisters, teammates, or fans. For example a Freshman playing in the wlax NC game being doubled teamed with sticks and intense D girls pressuring the hell out her is underperforming despite scoring a couple of goals and throwing a couple of assists. Oh, you can show her in slo mo over and over in her tough spot and get your thrills out your tough talk keyboard critic self too. Now if you call that poster out and give him that same kind of criticism that's bullying and mob mentality and playing too rough for him. What's good for the goose and all that, no?

[MDlaxfan76]

You're right MDlax, my bad, it did evolve from no holds barred initially to Hamsterdam and looser rules than that horrid LP place. Now posters can bash the hell out of players with no regard for parents, brothers, sisters, teammates, or fans. For example a Freshman playing in the wlax NC game being doubled teamed with sticks and intense D girls pressuring the hell out her is underperforming despite scoring a couple of goals and throwing a couple of assists. Oh, you can show her in slo mo over and over in her tough spot and get your thrills out your tough talk keyboard critic self too. Now if you call that poster out and give him that same kind of criticism that's bullying and mob mentality and playing too rough for him. What's good for the goose and all that, no?

And it's indeed that sort of trolling that somehow needs to be reined in. Bad faith.

As we've discussed elsewhere, there's a very high likelihood on these forums that at least some of the participants, whether posting or just reading, are family or friends of the players. And while some are technically 'adults'' I'm sorry, they're still kids to me.

I don't have a problem with someone saying player X is better than player Y and why they think so, but badmouthing either just has no reasonable benefit other than for some anonymous jerks to get their jollies.

I think it's ok to critique a coach, whether for X's and O's or for softer aspects of culture etc, including tough critiques...these are indeed the 'adults' who are not simply doing their job, they've been entrusted with the experiences of those they're in charge of...there's a power aspect to this that I think makes the responsibilities in this realm much more open to critique. Simply badmouthing, not ok, but pointed, informed critique seems to me actually to be of service.

At least, that's how I parse it out.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

...it was indeed that a thorough read of the way this evolved does reveal a single poster constantly baiting others in ways that clearly upset them. Asked to stop doing so politely, he persisted. Politeness was forfeited from there, understandably...which is why I say "justified".

I’m curious as to which posts from Cletus (my now defunct account) you deem trolling posts. I’m not setting you up for a “gotcha!” or a segue into an argument. I don’t intend to debate anything with you. I’m just interested in your perspective if you care to share it. Thank you.

[MDlaxfan76]

...it was indeed that a thorough read of the way this evolved does reveal a single poster constantly baiting others in ways that clearly upset them. Asked to stop doing so politely, he persisted. Politeness was forfeited from there, understandably...which is why I say "justified".

I’m curious as to which posts from Cletus (my now defunct account) you deem trolling posts. I’m not setting you up for a “gotcha!” or a segue into an argument. I don’t intend to debate anything with you. I’m just interested in your perspective if you care to share it. Thank you.

Well, putting aside that it's downright weird (IMO) to have two or more monikers simultaneously (as you did) or even serially, I don't want to debate which posts were most offensive and which weren't, either. I think there was ample feedback to you from a number of other posters about various posts that demean a player or team, that are indeed offensive.

More recently, you started a thread ostensibly about miscellaneous topics that led off with a defense of the words "choke" or "choking"...and we all know why you did so, as Cletus you'd previously been upbraided for having said this about particular players and teams. I expressed my views on the topic as politely as I could muster, that such is quite demeaning; that led to some interesting back and forth defending the notion that because various a-holes do it to get clicks and eyeballs, that somehow makes it cool to do on a forum in which the fellow posters and readers are quite likely to be family and friends. I disagree.

Rather than go further, I suggested that the far more interesting topic for discussion is what makes it possible for an excellent team to somehow catch that magic that makes them truly special, whether creating an unstoppable momentum of seeming over performance or the grit to withstand multiple challenges from other excellent teams...what is that, and what circumstances make that happen? And when it doesn't happen that doesn't mean the other team(s) choked, they were simply beaten by the team for whom it did.

I've previously expressed that some good natured joshing back and forth between fans of rival programs, but when one does this in a demeaning way about another team or player, simply to get a rise out of them, that's trolling...and it's indeed likely to generate a response...and if it's a continuous pattern of such, it's not at all surprising that such will get an angry response from a whole bunch of folks...and to call that response bullying and asking for help from the Admin...that's not cool either.

My read is that it had gone way beyond the opportunity to simply apologize and ask to move on...as you really didn't seem to have come to grips that it was an offensive path in the first place, or worse, didn't care and were being disingenuous...and that'll really tick folks off...

Of course, that's simply my perspective.

My advice is to find a way to refrain from demeaning kids...love, admire, applaud who you want, but don't do it at the expense of others.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

...it was indeed that a thorough read of the way this evolved does reveal a single poster constantly baiting others in ways that clearly upset them. Asked to stop doing so politely, he persisted. Politeness was forfeited from there, understandably...which is why I say "justified".

I’m curious as to which posts from Cletus (my now defunct account) you deem trolling posts. I’m not setting you up for a “gotcha!” or a segue into an argument. I don’t intend to debate anything with you. I’m just interested in your perspective if you care to share it. Thank you.

Well, putting aside that it's downright weird (IMO) to have two or more monikers simultaneously (as you did) or even serially, I don't want to debate which posts were most offensive and which weren't, either. I think there was ample feedback to you from a number of other posters about various posts that demean a player or team, that are indeed offensive.

More recently, you started a thread ostensibly about miscellaneous topics that led off with a defense of the words "choke" or "choking"...and we all know why you did so, as Cletus you'd previously been upbraided for having said this about particular players and teams. I expressed my views on the topic as politely as I could muster, that such is quite demeaning; that led to some interesting back and forth defending the notion that because various a-holes do it to get clicks and eyeballs, that somehow makes it cool to do on a forum in which the fellow posters and readers are quite likely to be family and friends. I disagree.

Rather than go further, I suggested that the far more interesting topic for discussion is what makes it possible for an excellent team to somehow catch that magic that makes them truly special, whether creating an unstoppable momentum of seeming over performance or the grit to withstand multiple challenges from other excellent teams...what is that, and what circumstances make that happen? And when it doesn't happen that doesn't mean the other team(s) choked, they were simply beaten by the team for whom it did.

I've previously expressed that some good natured joshing back and forth between fans of rival programs, but when one does this in a demeaning way about another team or player, simply to get a rise out of them, that's trolling...and it's indeed likely to generate a response...and if it's a continuous pattern of such, it's not at all surprising that such will get an angry response from a whole bunch of folks...and to call that response bullying and asking for help from the Admin...that's not cool either.

My read is that it had gone way beyond the opportunity to simply apologize and ask to move on...as you really didn't seem to have come to grips that it was an offensive path in the first place, or worse, didn't care and were being disingenuous...and that'll really tick folks off...

Of course, that's simply my perspective.

My advice is to find a way to refrain from demeaning kids...love, admire, applaud who you want, but don't do it at the expense of others.

Thanks for the feedback.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

More recently, you started a thread ostensibly about miscellaneous topics that led off with a defense of the words "choke" or "choking"...and we all know why you did so, as Cletus you'd previously been upbraided for having said this about particular players and teams. I expressed my views on the topic as politely as I could muster, that such is quite demeaning; that led to some interesting back and forth defending the notion that because various a-holes do it to get clicks and eyeballs

A follow up question, if you're amenable: Do you consider Dan Shaughnessy, columnist for the Boston Globe, to be one of these "a-holes"?

[MDlaxfan76]

More recently, you started a thread ostensibly about miscellaneous topics that led off with a defense of the words "choke" or "choking"...and we all know why you did so, as Cletus you'd previously been upbraided for having said this about particular players and teams. I expressed my views on the topic as politely as I could muster, that such is quite demeaning; that led to some interesting back and forth defending the notion that because various a-holes do it to get clicks and eyeballs

A follow up question, if you're amenable: Do you consider Dan Shaughnessy, columnist for the Boston Globe, to be one of these "a-holes"?

yes, to the extent that eyeballs and clicks are the motivation...but note, he's not writing about high school and college kids, he's writing about professional athletes paid millions...the difference matters.

Thought you didn't want to debate?

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

More recently, you started a thread ostensibly about miscellaneous topics that led off with a defense of the words "choke" or "choking"...and we all know why you did so, as Cletus you'd previously been upbraided for having said this about particular players and teams. I expressed my views on the topic as politely as I could muster, that such is quite demeaning; that led to some interesting back and forth defending the notion that because various a-holes do it to get clicks and eyeballs

A follow up question, if you're amenable: Do you consider Dan Shaughnessy, columnist for the Boston Globe, to be one of these "a-holes"?

yes, to the extent that eyeballs and clicks are the motivation...but note, he's not writing about high school and college kids, he's writing about professional athletes paid millions...the difference matters.

Thought you didn't want to debate?

I don't consider asking a question debating.

As TL used to say--that is all.

[MDlaxfan76]

More recently, you started a thread ostensibly about miscellaneous topics that led off with a defense of the words "choke" or "choking"...and we all know why you did so, as Cletus you'd previously been upbraided for having said this about particular players and teams. I expressed my views on the topic as politely as I could muster, that such is quite demeaning; that led to some interesting back and forth defending the notion that because various a-holes do it to get clicks and eyeballs

A follow up question, if you're amenable: Do you consider Dan Shaughnessy, columnist for the Boston Globe, to be one of these "a-holes"?

yes, to the extent that eyeballs and clicks are the motivation...but note, he's not writing about high school and college kids, he's writing about professional athletes paid millions...the difference matters.

Thought you didn't want to debate?

I don't consider asking a question debating.

As TL used to say--that is all.

Felt that way...might be worth noting that a question, in that context, is likely gonna be interpreted as challenging...that said, it's certainly a better rhetorical device than some others that even more bluntly confrontational...it's just that it's not going to be confused with an actual desire for clarification. I think I'd previously been clear about my view of sports writers who use that term.

Of course, I don't know Shaughnessy personally, so my use of that phrase is intended generically about those who choose to be insulting for profit. He may love his wife and kids and never kick his dog for all I know.