Syracuse 2022

[wgdsr]

Is it? Cuse was literally one goal away from being 3-3 in the ACC this year. Going 3-3 instead of 2-4 when one of those four losses was by a single goal is not some herculean turnaround.

Oh, yes it is.

How'd your team enjoy missing the playoffs because you couldn't manage what you seem to think is an easy "one goal away" from beating Maryland in the BigTen FInal?

And what might have happened if Hopkins got that extra goal, and made the NCAA tournament?

Instead? 4-7 season.

Truly have no idea how that's even remotely related to what we're talking about.

It means that Hopkins was two goals away from an NCAA Tourney bid. And based on what we all saw with the line of Frosh-middies, they would have had a good chance of winning that 1st round game, depending on the sheer luck of the draw...and who they had to play against.

So, would you say there is a big gap between making it to the Quarters------and having a 4-7 season? I would!

And yet it came down to two piddly goals. Two piddly goals that are far more difficult to get than you seem to realize. Notre Dame, Rutgers, and Loyola all missed the Final Four by those two piddly goals. How many years do you think it will take to get those three programs back into a Final Four?

That is the point of the Bull Durham clip. It's a hair between a career in the minors, and Cooperstown.

UVA was 2-4 too if you recall.

In a weirdo Covid year, where the Ivies don't take the field, and conferences just play each other, by and large? Sure. Point to the anomaly.

Agree to disagree. 3 wins against ACC teams means you had a fine season, imho.

actually, 3 goals.

i believe syracuse has the best acc record since they joined the conference. at least until this year, maybe including.

[stupefied]

wasn't Hopkings 4-9?

[a fan]

wasn't Hopkings 4-9?

Yep. My bad.

[Powellfan22]

I will defend Desko and say I don't think it's been super easy to recruit to Syracuse in recent years. 20 years ago he could stand on the program's history and tradition of winning as points in its favor (compared to other schools), but now that's not as much of a selling point. With all due respect to the school and the city of Syracuse, how many reasons are there really for why a kid would go there over UNC, UVA, Duke, or ND?

We've been over this before but the recruiting profiles at most of those other ACC schools are just more enticing in terms of location, academics, etc. Those are the schools he had to recruit against (to say nothing of places like Georgetown, Villanova, Hopkins, Maryland, Penn State, the Ivies, and many others outside the ACC)—and on top of all that stuff, those ACCs also have a more recent history of success. So Cuse's one big argument that used to lure recruits in doesn't have the same value. We talk a lot about how coach X or coach Y is a great recruiter and sure some are better at developing relationships or persuading families than others, but at the end of the day, the school itself does the majority of the recruiting.

When recruits compare institutions and ask themselves what schools they can really see themselves being students at, Cuse probably loses that argument more often than not. I think Cuse is extremely, extremely fortunate Joey Spallina grew up a huge Cuse fan and then helped bring in all these other top recruits because had that not happened I think they'd be staring at a third straight year with zero Under-Armor All-Americans in 2022 with no end in sight. But now with a top recruit in the mix and a new staff they have the opportunity to change perceptions and boost recruiting for the future. That's not something they've had in awhile. Doesn't mean it will happen but at least there's a chance.

I wanted to push back on this a bit, not as a means to blame Desko or anything, but just to defend Syracuse. You're making it sound like a Siberian Outpost, lol.

Tradition - I'm probably going to come off a little pompous here, and I don't mean to. I think you are underselling this selling point. If there are any household names in Lacrosse, I think names like Gait and Powell would be at the top of that list. To any sort of casual fan, I beleive, Syracuse is probably most associated with the sport out of any school. Yes, the brand has taken a hit these last few years, but I still think a large amount of kids enjoy saying that they play for Syracuse. Everyone knows/thinks you are a good player if you say that is where you play, regardless if you are a lacrosse fan or not. You gave a perfect example of how strong the brand is in Spallina, who apparently is a huge Casey Powell fan despite the fact that he wasn't even born while Casey was playing at Syracuse. I don't think that is just "luck".

Also Syracuse spends the most money on lacrosse of any school - $3 million according to a Syracuse.com story. I don't know what that money goes to, but it's got to count for something. They have a very nice and relatively new indoor training facility, an updated locker room, and while the Carrier Dome is not for everyone, it's one of the most unique and iconic stadiums in lacrosse. How many major football stadiums that are used in lacrosse have banners/murals dedicated to the lacrosse team? The Dome does, and I'm sure the players like to be recognized as one of the more important teams on campus. And lastly, they consistently draw the most fans in lacrosse. Again, players like feeling important and Syracuse still values the sport as much as any school out there.

Location - what used to be a benefit for Syracuse has faded, as local Section III lacrosse has declined over the years. In fairness to Desko and the staff, they did branch out their recruiting and got All American caliber kids from Texas, Illinois, Florida, Canada, Maryland, New Jersey and Oregon. I guess for what it is worth, the social life at Syracuse does seem like a selling point as it's ranked as one of the top party schools. Not a tradition metric, but for some kids this is a big selling point. It would be nice for the new staff to create a pipeline to Rochester and get more kids to stay closer to home. I don't know why they've struggled in Western New York, but it still seems like untapped potential.

Academics - no, Syracuse can't measure up to places like the Ivys, or Hopkins or even places like UVA and UNC. But there are plenty of talented players who don't have the grades for those schools. Syracuse also isn't some backwater institution, they have the Newhouse School, the best place for a degree in journalism/media, and they've had plenty of issues with kids who couldn't hack it academically. Best example is that it's well assumed the Thompson went to Albany because they couldn't get into Syracuse. The cost does seem prohibitive for a lot of families, not sure how to defend that. For a long time, in a simplistic way, I thought Syracuse was the place for kids who couldn't get into the more prestigious schools. The Powells got endless flack because they didn't graduate from Syracuse (not even sure if this is true or just an urban legend), and of course Mike was suspended from SU for a fall semester. I don't see them at a place like Cornell or Hopkins. There are more schools to compete with now that there is more talent. Maryland, Denver, Loyola seem like their main competition on an academic level, and obviously those schools have pulled a lot of talent. Long rant but I don't see this as a bad thing for SU, a lot just depends on the kid. And there are exceptions to the rule, Greg Rommel apparently turned down a chance to play quarterback for Ivy League schools and Carter Kempney, a '22 recruit turned down other Ivy League teams to commit to SU.

Lastly, on the Spallina it does seem like a big deal he committed. I don't know how much influence he had personally on other recruits - think it's a bigger deal for his dad Joe, who coaches Team 91. Already a number of Team 91 kids have committed to SU since Spallina made his choice, including Cocammo, Cotes and Sageder. Long Island has long been a desired recruiting hotbed that has seemed out of reach for SU. If the Team 91 pipeline continues that could be a very big deal for the Orange.

And not to nitpick, but in addition to Hiltz who certainly would have been in the UA AA game, it does sound like Kempney would have chosen SU regardless which would certainly have given them a UA AA next year.

[DMac]

I wanted to push back on this a bit, not as a means to blame Desko or anything, but just to defend Syracuse. You're making it sound like a Siberian Outpost, lol.

Well done, P22, right on the money.

[HopFan16]

Sounds like the greatest place ever. If that's all true how do you explain Cuse recruiting a step behind its ACC rivals the past several years?

- The tradition isn't a huge selling point anymore. It really isn't. Same goes for Hopkins. Talk to these kids. They don't really care. They want to play for teams that have won recently. If they're choosing between Cuse and NJIT then sure, the history/tradition will matter a lot. But they're choosing between Cuse and UVA. Cuse and Cornell. Cuse and Hopkins. These teams have winning legacies too.

- Is the new indoor training facility lacrosse only, or do they share with other sports? Most other big schools have similar facilities already. That's not a major leg up on the competition.

- Location: not a plus. Social life? Again, how is that any different from the majority of ACC or Big Ten schools? I went to a party at Penn State once. Never again.

- Academics—I didn't say it was a backwater institution. It's a good school. But at that price point (more expensive than many of its competitors) it becomes less appealing. Newhouse is a plus. How many Cuse players are Newhouse students? I'm genuinely interested to know. They should push that harder. It's a differentiator for kids interested in getting into media. Jonathan Donville apparently is one of those kinds of kids—why didn't he end up at Cuse instead of UMD?

- Spallina is undoubtedly an enormous get for the program but if you're relying on one player and his family to do a lot of the recruiting for you then he better back it up during his four years there otherwise that bump won't last long

Point is: Cuse is a solid school with a great legacy and a commitment to lacrosse. No doubting that. It's a more attractive destination than 90% of schools for a lacrosse player. But that other 10%? More cons than pros when you make the comparisons. Remember, these kids have to want to *go to school* at these places. It's not just about lacrosse. I think the majority of kids would rather *go to school* at UVA or UNC or Duke. If you get injured and can't play anymore, you still have to be a student at that school.

[DMac]

HopFan16 wrote
Point is: Cuse is a solid school with a great legacy and a commitment to lacrosse. No doubting that. It's a more attractive destination than 90% of schools for a lacrosse player.

Nuff said, Cuse is still a big player in the game, you're never going to appeal to 100%.
The indoor facility is not lacrosse only but it's pretty damn nice and more than likely
plenty available for the lacrosse team. If you need better facilities than Cuse offers
then go somewhere else with your elitist, spoiled, privileged, self.
Am curious, how many times you been to the Dome to watch a lacrosse game? Ever
attend a February-March game there? How much time have you spent in the Cuse?

[HopFan16]

Cuse is still a big player in the game, you're never going to appeal to 100%.

If they want to be a "good" program, then sure. I thought the bar was higher.

[a fan]

Sounds like the greatest place ever. If that's all true how do you explain Cuse recruiting a step behind its ACC rivals the past several years?

- The tradition isn't a huge selling point anymore. It really isn't. Same goes for Hopkins. Talk to these kids. They don't really care. They want to play for teams that have won recently. If they're choosing between Cuse and NJIT then sure, the history/tradition will matter a lot. But they're choosing between Cuse and UVA. Cuse and Cornell. Cuse and Hopkins. These teams have winning legacies too.

- Is the new indoor training facility lacrosse only, or do they share with other sports? Most other big schools have similar facilities already. That's not a major leg up on the competition.

- Location: not a plus. Social life? Again, how is that any different from the majority of ACC or Big Ten schools? I went to a party at Penn State once. Never again.

- Academics—I didn't say it was a backwater institution. It's a good school. But at that price point (more expensive than many of its competitors) it becomes less appealing. Newhouse is a plus. How many Cuse players are Newhouse students? I'm genuinely interested to know. They should push that harder. It's a differentiator for kids interested in getting into media. Jonathan Donville apparently is one of those kinds of kids—why didn't he end up at Cuse instead of UMD?

- Spallina is undoubtedly an enormous get for the program but if you're relying on one player and his family to do a lot of the recruiting for you then he better back it up during his four years there otherwise that bump won't last long

Point is: Cuse is a solid school with a great legacy and a commitment to lacrosse. No doubting that. It's a more attractive destination than 90% of schools for a lacrosse player. But that other 10%? More cons than pros when you make the comparisons.

You're literally describing why many----including myself----believe why both Hopkins and Syracuse have been losing out on the recruiting trail to ACC teams.

If we're right? Coaching isn't the problem. It's the schools themselves that are the problem.

And JHU72 has been trying to tell you this regarding Hopkins for years now.

[Antonio114]

Cuse is still a big player in the game, you're never going to appeal to 100%.

If they want to be a "good" program, then sure. I thought the bar was higher.

Lol what does this even mean? No school appeals to 100% of all recruits. You are once again crossing the Hop16 line that separates solid analysis from lame trolling.

[HopFan16]

Cuse is still a big player in the game, you're never going to appeal to 100%.

If they want to be a "good" program, then sure. I thought the bar was higher.

Lol what does this even mean? No school appeals to 100% of all recruits. You are once again crossing the Hop16 line that separates solid analysis from lame trolling.

Oh give me a break. Not all criticism is trolling. Incapable of hearing anything you don't want to hear. Do you read the Cuse forums? Their expectations for the program are higher than recent results. The entire point of this is: How do the recent results change, longterm? Consistently? To where they'd be happy?

You're literally describing why many----including myself----believe why both Hopkins and Syracuse have been losing out on the recruiting trail to ACC teams.

If we're right? Coaching isn't the problem. It's the schools themselves that are the problem.

And JHU72 has been trying to tell you this regarding Hopkins for years now.

Both can be problems, my man. They're not mutually exclusive. But I'm not having this debate again. Literal broken record.

I agree with you to a degree about Hopkins but as I mentioned before—I think the academic profile gives it a leg up with a large swath of recruits compared to its conference rivals. That's a differentiator. Having Junior on staff looks like it might be a differentiator for Canadians/box kids. Maybe Gait will be able to do the same.

[DMac]

Cuse is still a big player in the game, you're never going to appeal to 100%.

If they want to be a "good" program, then sure. I thought the bar was higher.

Lol what does this even mean? No school appeals to 100% of all recruits. You are once again crossing the Hop16 line that separates solid analysis from lame trolling.

Oh give me a break. Not all criticism is trolling. Incapable of hearing anything you don't want to hear. Do you read the Cuse forums? Their expectations for the program are higher than recent results. The entire point of this is: How do the recent results change, longterm? Consistently? To where they'd be happy?

Antonio is 100% right, you go way over the top with this stuff and overthink the room. "I thought the bar was higher."
Of course it is as it always is at Cuse, Hopkins, Va, Maryland....etc. You're looking for perfection and anything short of that warrants criticism. Don't want to hear it? Dish out all you want but don't expect silence when you do.
You didn't answer my questions.

[a fan]

Both can be problems, my man. They're not mutually exclusive. But I'm not having this debate again.

Wasn't asking you to debate. We're good.

We're going to find out in real time. You changed coaches, but have the same school. If Milliman can't make Final Fours, you'll have your answer.

Same for Syracuse.

I agree with you to a degree about Hopkins but as I mentioned before—I think the academic profile gives it a leg up with a large swath of recruits compared to its conference rivals.

Or a leg down. Not every blue chip recruit wants to tought it out in the classroom at Hopkins. But you know that.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Both can be problems, my man. They're not mutually exclusive. But I'm not having this debate again.

Wasn't asking you to debate. We're good.

We're going to find out in real time. You changed coaches, but have the same school. If Milliman can't make Final Fours, you'll have your answer.

Same for Syracuse.

I agree with you to a degree about Hopkins but as I mentioned before—I think the academic profile gives it a leg up with a large swath of recruits compared to its conference rivals.

Or a leg down. Not every blue chip recruit wants to tought it out in the classroom at Hopkins. But you know that.

Also not as much admissions latitude at JHU compared to its conference rivals. All things being equal, its a disadvantage….but it doesn’t mean Hopkins can’t overcome it.

[HopFan16]

Cuse is still a big player in the game, you're never going to appeal to 100%.

If they want to be a "good" program, then sure. I thought the bar was higher.

Lol what does this even mean? No school appeals to 100% of all recruits. You are once again crossing the Hop16 line that separates solid analysis from lame trolling.

Oh give me a break. Not all criticism is trolling. Incapable of hearing anything you don't want to hear. Do you read the Cuse forums? Their expectations for the program are higher than recent results. The entire point of this is: How do the recent results change, longterm? Consistently? To where they'd be happy?

Antonio is 100% right, you go way over the top with this stuff and overthink the room. "I thought the bar was higher."
Of course it is as it always is at Cuse, Hopkins, Va, Maryland....etc. You're looking for perfection and anything short of that warrants criticism. Don't want to hear it? Dish out all you want but don't expect silence when you do.
You didn't answer my questions.

Over the top like calling your current defensive coordinator too fat to be a role model to recruits? Or making fun of Asian-Americans? Who was the Cuse fan who referred to Scanlan's accuser, a player on the women's team, as "little girl"? That was all you, right? Or do I have the wrong Cuse guy?

*I'M* not looking for perfection. Cuse fans are unhappy about the current state of things. That is a fact. Read the Cuse boards. People were making big, bold statements following the season. Not just about Desko.

Lol, talk about dishing it out? The Hop thread is full of this kind of criticism every day from people outside the program. If what I'm doing is trolling then Cuse fans are guilty of much worse.

[FannOLax]

...
Academics - no, Syracuse can't measure up to places like the Ivys, or Hopkins or even places like UVA and UNC. But there are plenty of talented players who don't have the grades for those schools. Syracuse also isn't some backwater institution, they have the Newhouse School, the best place for a degree in journalism/media, and they've had plenty of issues with kids who couldn't hack it academically. Best example is that it's well assumed the Thompson went to Albany because they couldn't get into Syracuse. The cost does seem prohibitive for a lot of families, not sure how to defend that. For a long time, in a simplistic way, I thought Syracuse was the place for kids who couldn't get into the more prestigious schools. The Powells got endless flack because they didn't graduate from Syracuse (not even sure if this is true or just an urban legend), and of course Mike was suspended from SU for a fall semester. I don't see them at a place like Cornell or Hopkins. There are more schools to compete with now that there is more talent. Maryland, Denver, Loyola seem like their main competition on an academic level, and obviously those schools have pulled a lot of talent. Long rant but I don't see this as a bad thing for SU...

I'd add Duke and the service academies (at least Annapolis and West Point) to your list of places with better academics; but I think it's still a pretty short list. Yes, true about Albany, and probably many, many other D1 programs. What I'd wonder about is the cost (tuition, etc) of Cuse combined with its financial aid. Lacrosse has a paltry number of scholarships to go around, and Syracuse is a private school, making it generally more expensive than state schools. Hop and the Ivies have not only strong academics, but terrific financial aid; I wonder how Syracuse does on financial aid.
Considering that Cuse has been in the NCAAs these past years, I don't think such a big turnaround is needed (look at how far UVa had fallen in the years right before Lars arrived). Sometimes turnarounds are gradual and take a lot of years (Shay was at Yale for well over a decade before winning the national championship). I can imagine the Orange improving fairly quickly under Gait, and I'd like to see it happen. Good luck!

[DMac]

HopFan16 wrote
Over the top like calling your current defensive coordinator too fat to be a role model to recruits? Or making fun of Asian-Americans? Who was the Cuse fan who referred to Scanlan's accuser, a player on the women's team, as "little girl"? That was all you, right? Or do I have the wrong Cuse guy?

*I'M* not looking for perfection. Cuse fans are unhappy about the current state of things. That is a fact. Read the Cuse boards. People were making big, bold statements following the season. Not just about Desko.

Lol, talk about dishing it out? The Hop thread is full of this kind of criticism every day from people outside the program. If what I'm doing is trolling then Cuse fans are guilty of much worse.

Oh please, how 'bout you stop with the diversion and millennial sensitivities (gotta love those sound bites taken out of context...Petro lost how much weight?).
The subject you were on is Cuse's attractiveness, more accurately unattractiveness, to recruits which is nonsense over the top garbage.
No answers to my questions yet, gotta guess you've never experienced the Dome, really should give it a shot.
Pack a lunch though cuz there's no social life or places to eat here.
You should be helping your page count.

[HopFan16]

Oh please, how 'bout you stop with the diversion and millennial sensitivities

There's no diversion. You said I'm being "over the top" for having a civil discussion about recruiting that involved precisely zero name-calling or racial slurs. I gave you an example of what it *actually* looks like to go over the top on a lacrosse message board. Look in the mirror.

The subject you were on is Cuse's attractiveness, more accurately unattractiveness, to recruits which is nonsense over the top garbage.

Keep telling yourself that.

[DMac]

Seems to me as if I'm not the only saw it that way, but keep telling yourself that, and the only one who said anything about about not being able to take criticism is you.
You're needed back at Hopkins to continue on with your coaching and advice.

[stupefied]

Wish 2020 season had played out for all teams, maybe Cuse was overrated or not but at least they were mentally and physically prepared that season without various issues.

2022 season will be an interesting watch as new staff looks to be content with present personnel while competition is gathering talents from the portal .

Maybe Gait believes in the current team or maybe somewhat writing off the season. There is still some top talent, certainly need a few bounce backs and some others stepping up into holes.

As someone pointed out, Cuse has the best record in ACC since joining the league. Been the early playoff exits that have mostly upset their fanbase.

Lax recruitment at most any school has its advantages and disadvantages. Cuse still maintains certain status and allure in lax and basketball.

Upstate NY talent pool is eh, fortunately a large radius beyond to expand into and draw from . Cuse has resources , hasnt seen the last of final fours or another lax national championship. Probably happen sooner than later.