Syracuse 2022

[wgdsr]

danowski's over the hill. or he's unlucky and petro is over the hill?

I think Petro is over the unlucky hill. Yeah, that's it.

Oh...until Petro makes the Final Four. Then Doc will come on and explain how Petro "forgot to innovate" at Hopkins for the last freaking five years, and found Jeezus at Syracuse. Oh, and "remember how to coach D1 lacrosse" again. Oh, and remember to tell his D charges to be aggressive.

Anything to keep him and his fellow posters from admitting the obvious.

Look at the defenses of the four teams that made the Final Four this season. Do they resemble any defense Petro put together?

As I have stated in an earlier post, Petro is one of the greatest lacrosse coaches of all time. But his defensive approach was dated.

Having watched this year’s Final Four (or even Coach Koesterer’s Hopkins defense in the B1G tournament), does anyone really believe it is not worthwhile to try and cause turnovers because the stick technology makes that too difficult? Does anyone really believe that anymore?

Sure, every team still tries to make opponents take lower percentage shots … but does anyone really believe that opponents should be allowed to shoot freely from 15 yards and wholly depend on the goalie to make the stop? Or, should a defense be more aggressive and always try to disrupt the shooter by getting a stick on their hands or physically checking them?

Petro’s old defensive system relied far too heavily on goalies to make the big stop and faceoff wins to gain possession. Those are still important, but today’s best defenses are far more active, dynamic, and aggressive:

—Aggressive rides to win new possessions;
—Physical defense that prevents shooters from getting clean shots;
—dynamic defenses that are always working to cause turnovers; and
—defenses that view themselves as initiators of offense.

Pietramala is a great coach, and he has at least another decade of coaching in him. I can’t imagine he watched this year’s Final Four and thought to himself … I should just keep doing what I’ve been doing on defense the last quarter century.

Tom Landry never got a chance to reinvent himself. Petro has that opportunity now.

I expect the Syracuse defense to look pretty different next season from any defense Petro has ever put out on the field.

DocBarrister

it's like me commenting on covid.

[sholokov2]

danowski's over the hill. or he's unlucky and petro is over the hill?

I think Petro is over the unlucky hill. Yeah, that's it.

Oh...until Petro makes the Final Four. Then Doc will come on and explain how Petro "forgot to innovate" at Hopkins for the last freaking five years, and found Jeezus at Syracuse. Oh, and "remember how to coach D1 lacrosse" again. Oh, and remember to tell his D charges to be aggressive.

Anything to keep him and his fellow posters from admitting the obvious.

Look at the defenses of the four teams that made the Final Four this season. Do they resemble any defense Petro put together?

As I have stated in an earlier post, Petro is one of the greatest lacrosse coaches of all time. But his defensive approach was dated.

Having watched this year’s Final Four (or even Coach Koesterer’s Hopkins defense in the B1G tournament), does anyone really believe it is not worthwhile to try and cause turnovers because the stick technology makes that too difficult? Does anyone really believe that anymore?

Sure, every team still tries to make opponents take lower percentage shots … but does anyone really believe that opponents should be allowed to shoot freely from 15 yards and wholly depend on the goalie to make the stop? Or, should a defense be more aggressive and always try to disrupt the shooter by getting a stick on their hands or physically checking them?

Petro’s old defensive system relied far too heavily on goalies to make the big stop and faceoff wins to gain possession. Those are still important, but today’s best defenses are far more active, dynamic, and aggressive:

—Aggressive rides to win new possessions;
—Physical defense that prevents shooters from getting clean shots;
—dynamic defenses that are always working to cause turnovers; and
—defenses that view themselves as initiators of offense.

Pietramala is a great coach, and he has at least another decade of coaching in him. I can’t imagine he watched this year’s Final Four and thought to himself … I should just keep doing what I’ve been doing on defense the last quarter century.

Tom Landry never got a chance to reinvent himself. Petro has that opportunity now.

I expect the Syracuse defense to look pretty different next season from any defense Petro has ever put out on the field.

DocBarrister

it's like me commenting on covid.

I always find efforts to establish motivation or blame for bad or good seasons unsatisfying. It is like establishing motivation for a crime. Intriguing but fruitless, except for Willies Sutton's answer to the question, "Why do you rob banks." "Because that's where the money is," responded Willy, the effort feels like rolling a boulder up hill. I think last year's terrible season started with the Army game. All I can offer is the assertion that the morale on the team degraded with that game to the point where it was gone by the end of the season. Who's to blame? Who's responsible? Everyone and no one. It seems to me that restoring that morale is the number one goal for the team this year. Who's responsible? Everyone.

[wgdsr]

danowski's over the hill. or he's unlucky and petro is over the hill?

I think Petro is over the unlucky hill. Yeah, that's it.

Oh...until Petro makes the Final Four. Then Doc will come on and explain how Petro "forgot to innovate" at Hopkins for the last freaking five years, and found Jeezus at Syracuse. Oh, and "remember how to coach D1 lacrosse" again. Oh, and remember to tell his D charges to be aggressive.

Anything to keep him and his fellow posters from admitting the obvious.

Look at the defenses of the four teams that made the Final Four this season. Do they resemble any defense Petro put together?

As I have stated in an earlier post, Petro is one of the greatest lacrosse coaches of all time. But his defensive approach was dated.

Having watched this year’s Final Four (or even Coach Koesterer’s Hopkins defense in the B1G tournament), does anyone really believe it is not worthwhile to try and cause turnovers because the stick technology makes that too difficult? Does anyone really believe that anymore?

Sure, every team still tries to make opponents take lower percentage shots … but does anyone really believe that opponents should be allowed to shoot freely from 15 yards and wholly depend on the goalie to make the stop? Or, should a defense be more aggressive and always try to disrupt the shooter by getting a stick on their hands or physically checking them?

Petro’s old defensive system relied far too heavily on goalies to make the big stop and faceoff wins to gain possession. Those are still important, but today’s best defenses are far more active, dynamic, and aggressive:

—Aggressive rides to win new possessions;
—Physical defense that prevents shooters from getting clean shots;
—dynamic defenses that are always working to cause turnovers; and
—defenses that view themselves as initiators of offense.

Pietramala is a great coach, and he has at least another decade of coaching in him. I can’t imagine he watched this year’s Final Four and thought to himself … I should just keep doing what I’ve been doing on defense the last quarter century.

Tom Landry never got a chance to reinvent himself. Petro has that opportunity now.

I expect the Syracuse defense to look pretty different next season from any defense Petro has ever put out on the field.

DocBarrister

it's like me commenting on covid.

I always find efforts to establish motivation or blame for bad or good seasons unsatisfying. It is like establishing motivation for a crime. Intriguing but fruitless, except for Willies Sutton's answer to the question, "Why do you rob banks." "Because that's where the money is," responded Willy, the effort feels like rolling a boulder up hill. I think last year's terrible season started with the Army game. All I can offer is the assertion that the morale on the team degraded with that game to the point where it was gone by the end of the season. Who's to blame? Who's responsible? Everyone and no one. It seems to me that restoring that morale is the number one goal for the team this year. Who's responsible? Everyone.

and seasons like that happen. people are talking like su's defense has been a mess for years. it hasn't. personally, i haven't liked their slide and recover defense, and disagree with it. remember watching carolina popularizing it, and sitting in the stands watching duke chew it up with faster ball movement. frankly, think that's why they had the success that they did in the early to mid 10's. everybody jumped on it, and duke was better at beating it than everyone else for a time.

but it's not like the orange have been giving up 15 goals a game for years.
at the wrong time, sure. how many goals did umd give up in the finals? and to a low scoring nd in the quarters? lost is how good teams have been for the season (the best in acc for quite a while), and then that became an albatross because nc$$ didn't go their way.

cuse didn't have the horses in '21. the coaches maybe could've made a better run of it (tho that's outside looking in), but it's tough to see what kind of major outcome would've changed in '21.

the coaches had to part with a couple longtime mainstays 2 years ago, and pick up recruiting. they did. and then however it happened, that wasn't enough. it's over now and the players are in for it. that may be enough to get them in the right direction.

[catchnshoot]

Petro and Gait two old men in an increasingly young mans game

[Kismet]

Before everyone celebrates Petro's defensive coaching prowess let's not forget how he and Team USA were outcoached by Canada in 2014 losing the final of the World Games on home soil 8-5 in Denver after defeating the Canucks 10-7 in the round robin. Add this to his very mediocre defensive record at Hopkins in recent years and don't see any cause for optimism that he can turn around an Orange middling defense based upon his history

[a fan]

All I can offer is the assertion that the morale on the team degraded with that game to the point where it was gone by the end of the season. Who's to blame? Who's responsible? Everyone and no one. It seems to me that restoring that morale is the number one goal for the team this year. Who's responsible? Everyone.

Well, they got rid of three ppl, right? Desko, Rodgers, and Scanlon.

[a fan]

Before everyone celebrates Petro's defensive coaching prowess let's not forget how he and Team USA were outcoached by Canada in 2014 losing the final of the World Games on home soil 8-5 in Denver after defeating the Canucks 10-7 in the round robin. Add this to his very mediocre defensive record at Hopkins in recent years and don't see any cause for optimism that he can turn around an Orange middling defense based upon his history

No one is celebrating it. Everyone is throwing stones.

He can quiet an awful lot of critics by simply going .500 in the ACC.

[a fan]

Petro and Gait two old men in an increasingly young mans game

I take it that you have no idea how old the coaches at UVa, UMd, Duke, Loyola, Denver, Notre Dame, UNC, etc. are?

[HopFan16]

how many goals did umd give up in the finals? and to a low scoring nd in the quarters? lost is how good teams have been for the season (the best in acc for quite a while), and then that became an albatross because nc$$ didn't go their way.

Low scoring ND? Believe me I love dunking on Corrigan and what IMO has been a stale offense in South Bend for a long time but they were a different beast this year largely due to Kavanagh. 10th in the country in scoring. Maryland actually held them below their average of 14, which was only .6 goals per game off UVA's average. They didn't play particularly well the week before against Drexel but that was hardly a low scoring offense in general.

He can quiet an awful lot of critics by simply going .500 in the ACC.

They were 2-4 this year so going .500 in ACC play in 2022 would require them to...flip just one loss into a win. I don't think that'd be some crazy definitive statement that shuts everybody up. It wouldn't really tell you a whole lot beyond "the new staff didn't make things worse" and I don't see anyone making that argument. Be a lot more competitive in your losses (AKA no enormous noncompetitive blowouts in the Dome) and make some noise in the tournament and then I think the haters will shush.

[a fan]

They were 2-4 this year so going .500 in ACC play in 2022 would require them to...flip just one loss into a win. I don't think that'd be some crazy definitive statement that shuts everybody up. It wouldn't really tell you a whole lot beyond "the new staff didn't make things worse" and I don't see anyone making that argument.

We've been told that Petro has had the game pass him by, and that he can't coach or develop players.

How on Earth is a lousy coach that can't teach defense or develop players, going to go .500 in the most competitive conference in the sport?

Look at 2019, my man. Duke, Syracuse, and Notre Dame all went .500. And in 2018? Notre Dame, UNC, and UVa were all sub-.500 in the ACC. Those ACC wins are the hardest wins in the sport, outside of the NCAA tournament.

"Flip just one ACC loss into a win" is ridiculously difficult. Surely you understand that.

Be a lot more competitive in your losses (AKA no enormous noncompetitive blowouts in the Dome) and make some noise in the tournament and then I think the haters will shush.

Not a chance. Nothing makes haters shut up.

Did you see the post above telling us that Gait and Petro are too old to coach? There you go.

[wgdsr]

fair enough on nd for total numbers, but my take was that in 4 of their games they scored almost half their goals, and umd is the standard? and in a win or go home game?
cuse 2x (beaten like a dead horse), romo and clev state they scored like 80 goals.

watched nd a good amount, and i wouldn't call their offense explosive at all times.

and cuse's defense buckled some years at the wrong time. there's a great deal of reliance on perception of programs to "make the final four". we got there a long time ago. i get it, though i'm not sure that should always be the yardstick.

[HopFan16]

"Flip just one ACC loss into a win" is ridiculously difficult.

Is it? Cuse was literally one goal away from being 3-3 in the ACC this year. Going 3-3 instead of 2-4 when one of those four losses was by a single goal is not some herculean turnaround. They're already pretty much there.

Be a lot more competitive in your losses (AKA no enormous noncompetitive blowouts in the Dome) and make some noise in the tournament and then I think the haters will shush.

Not a chance. Nothing makes haters shut up.

Ok so then if that won't make them shut up then going .500 in the conference certainly won't either, which was the point of my post. Seems like you agree now.

[a fan]

Is it? Cuse was literally one goal away from being 3-3 in the ACC this year. Going 3-3 instead of 2-4 when one of those four losses was by a single goal is not some herculean turnaround.

Oh, yes it is.

How'd your team enjoy missing the playoffs because you couldn't manage what you seem to think is an easy "one goal away" from beating Maryland in the BigTen FInal?

And what might have happened if Hopkins got that extra goal, and made the NCAA tournament?

Instead? 4-7 season.

[HopFan16]

Is it? Cuse was literally one goal away from being 3-3 in the ACC this year. Going 3-3 instead of 2-4 when one of those four losses was by a single goal is not some herculean turnaround.

Oh, yes it is.

How'd your team enjoy missing the playoffs because you couldn't manage what you seem to think is an easy "one goal away" from beating Maryland in the BigTen FInal?

And what might have happened if Hopkins got that extra goal, and made the NCAA tournament?

Instead? 4-7 season.

Truly have no idea how that's even remotely related to what we're talking about.

UVA was 2-4 too if you recall. The difference between 2-4 and 3-3 is not very large, and doesn't necessarily have to be super meaningful. It clearly wasn't for UVA. Winning one extra conference game is not going to make anyone drastically rethink anything. If they go .500 in the ACC and are a lot more competitive in losses than *22-8* and *21-9* and do better in the tourney than a first-round blowout then yes that's meaningful improvement that will turn some heads. 2-4 to 3-3? Nope. Jury would still be very much out—would need more data. Because, on its own, devoid of any context, it's not a leap. At best an incremental step though again we'd need to know how good the other teams are next year too. Maybe UNC stinks? Who knows.

[DocBarrister]

danowski's over the hill. or he's unlucky and petro is over the hill?

I think Petro is over the unlucky hill. Yeah, that's it.

Oh...until Petro makes the Final Four. Then Doc will come on and explain how Petro "forgot to innovate" at Hopkins for the last freaking five years, and found Jeezus at Syracuse. Oh, and "remember how to coach D1 lacrosse" again. Oh, and remember to tell his D charges to be aggressive.

Anything to keep him and his fellow posters from admitting the obvious.

Look at the defenses of the four teams that made the Final Four this season. Do they resemble any defense Petro put together?

As I have stated in an earlier post, Petro is one of the greatest lacrosse coaches of all time. But his defensive approach was dated.

Having watched this year’s Final Four (or even Coach Koesterer’s Hopkins defense in the B1G tournament), does anyone really believe it is not worthwhile to try and cause turnovers because the stick technology makes that too difficult? Does anyone really believe that anymore?

Sure, every team still tries to make opponents take lower percentage shots … but does anyone really believe that opponents should be allowed to shoot freely from 15 yards and wholly depend on the goalie to make the stop? Or, should a defense be more aggressive and always try to disrupt the shooter by getting a stick on their hands or physically checking them?

Petro’s old defensive system relied far too heavily on goalies to make the big stop and faceoff wins to gain possession. Those are still important, but today’s best defenses are far more active, dynamic, and aggressive:

—Aggressive rides to win new possessions;
—Physical defense that prevents shooters from getting clean shots;
—dynamic defenses that are always working to cause turnovers; and
—defenses that view themselves as initiators of offense.

Pietramala is a great coach, and he has at least another decade of coaching in him. I can’t imagine he watched this year’s Final Four and thought to himself … I should just keep doing what I’ve been doing on defense the last quarter century.

Tom Landry never got a chance to reinvent himself. Petro has that opportunity now.

I expect the Syracuse defense to look pretty different next season from any defense Petro has ever put out on the field.

DocBarrister

it's like me commenting on covid.

Actually, I know a lot more about lacrosse than you know about Covid.

Anyhoo …

… if Syracuse only had a personnel issue on defense, I would think Coach Gait would have kept Lelan Rogers on staff. He didn’t.

I’m confident Coach Rogers will find a good spot to land and continue his successful coaching career (if that’s what he wants to do). I’m very confident Coach Pietramala will be successful with the Orange.

DocBarrister

[a fan]

Is it? Cuse was literally one goal away from being 3-3 in the ACC this year. Going 3-3 instead of 2-4 when one of those four losses was by a single goal is not some herculean turnaround.

Oh, yes it is.

How'd your team enjoy missing the playoffs because you couldn't manage what you seem to think is an easy "one goal away" from beating Maryland in the BigTen FInal?

And what might have happened if Hopkins got that extra goal, and made the NCAA tournament?

Instead? 4-7 season.

Truly have no idea how that's even remotely related to what we're talking about.

It means that Hopkins was two goals away from an NCAA Tourney bid. And based on what we all saw with the line of Frosh-middies, they would have had a good chance of winning that 1st round game, depending on the sheer luck of the draw...and who they had to play against.

So, would you say there is a big gap between making it to the Quarters------and having a 4-7 season? I would!

And yet it came down to two piddly goals. Two piddly goals that are far more difficult to get than you seem to realize. Notre Dame, Rutgers, and Loyola all missed the Final Four by those two piddly goals. How many years do you think it will take to get those three programs back into a Final Four?

That is the point of the Bull Durham clip. It's a hair between a career in the minors, and Cooperstown.

UVA was 2-4 too if you recall.

In a weirdo Covid year, where the Ivies don't take the field, and conferences just play each other, by and large? Sure. Point to the anomaly.

Agree to disagree. 3 wins against ACC teams means you had a fine season, imho.

[HopFan16]

Agree to disagree. 3 wins against ACC teams means you had a fine season, imho.

On its own, no. No it doesn't.

You actually believe that if Syracuse wins one more ACC game next year, but everything else stays the same, that the people who were critical of the team are going to throw their hands up and say they were wrong? That's what this discussion is about. You said .500 in the ACC will shut people up. Going .500 would need to be supplemented by improving on the other things people are critical of—blowout home losses and poor playoff performance. .500 in-conference doesn't tell you very much by itself. Especially because they weren't wildly off that pace to begin with. Don't see it playing out that way, sorry. If they go 3-3 instead of 2-4 but everything else stays the same then nobody is going to shut up.

[stupefied]

Agree to disagree. 3 wins against ACC teams means you had a fine season, imho.

On its own, no. No it doesn't.

You actually believe that if Syracuse wins one more ACC game next year, but everything else stays the same, that the people who were critical of the team are going to throw their hands up and say they were wrong? That's what this discussion is about. You said .500 in the ACC will shut people up. Going .500 would need to be supplemented by improving on the other things people are critical of—blowout home losses and poor playoff performance. .500 in-conference doesn't tell you very much by itself. Especially because they weren't wildly off that pace to begin with. Don't see it playing out that way, sorry. If they go 3-3 instead of 2-4 but everything else stays the same then nobody is going to shut up.

No. If Cuse goes 3-3 in acc and trounces certain ooc opponents ie Hopkins as they did in 2020 n 2019 then most Cuse fans would be satisfied with a clear bounce back.

Cuse fans wouldn't be happy with a one game improvement to 8-5 season if it included similar wide margin losses to 2021.

[a fan]

Agree to disagree. 3 wins against ACC teams means you had a fine season, imho.

On its own, no. No it doesn't.

You actually believe that if Syracuse wins one more ACC game next year, but everything else stays the same

Except that's not how it works. You don't win 3 games against ACC opponents *and* have "everything else stay the same*.

Let me help you: when was the last time Syracuse won 3 games against ACC opponents? When you find that answer, you'll understand why winning 3 ACC games in a year is a big deal. Then find the next season where Syracuse won 3 games against ACC opponents.

3 ACC wins is a big deal. Full stop. Remember how frustrated UVa fans were during the 0-fer in the ACC years? Now you're telling me that 3 ACC wins is not only not a big deal....you're telling me that it's not all that hard to do.

BTW, UVa didn't go 2-4 against ACC teams in 2021. They went 3-4, against ACC teams. Think that 3rd ACC win made a difference?

.....you said .500 in the ACC will shut people up.

That was about Petro.

How do you go .500 in the ACC if you can't coach, and "the game has passed you by"? What does that say about the other ACC coaches?

[DocBarrister]

Don’t understand what all the debate is about.

If you can beat the eventual NCAA champs twice in a season (including in late April) and earn a trip to the NCAA tournament, then you have a talented roster. The Orange look to load up with what appears to be a talented incoming class. They “added” by “subtracting” one particular player with “issues”. Syracuse is also loaded with several stellar coaches, a couple of whom are among the best to ever play the game.

It would be absolutely moronic to wager against the Orange in 2022.

DocBarrister