THE 2019 Hopkins Lacrosse Fallout Shelter (44, we want more!)

[wgdsr]

- Speaking of Petro - I thought leaving your two second half time outs in your pocket was not great strategy. You call a time out in the first couple minutes of the game to save a possession but not in the 4th quarter? There were several times I was saying "Time out - Time out". Epstein had an incredible ground ball middle of the 4th during one of those momentus scrums but he was up against the sidelines and had little room and turned it over. How about when you are up 3 with a 1:08 left and you have Zinn running untouched down the middle of the quagmire? Are you surprised that a freshman who had played little in the game started a sequence that turned it over and you had to sweat out the last 30 seconds?

nc$$ you are only allowed to call timeout on deadballs (restriction on quick whistle whether on offense or defense), oob or if live action - only with the ball in the forward offensive third of the field (inside the restraining line). you can probably save yourself at least some angst going forward. the players have to play a lot of those situations out.

- A hard game to officiate made even harder by the conditions but how in the world did DeSimone end up in the box on the last penalty called against Hopkins - must of been something I didn't see - I would have called a loose ball push or a foul on Carolina

desimone crosschecked cook in the throat/helmet as he rose picking up a ground ball. that was a few seconds after he bear-hug tackled a carolina shorty who had also picked up the ball. he's lucky he didn't get hit for 2 fouls, or that the one called wasn't for longer than a minute (and unreleasable).

- Even in the mud the Blue Shirt Black Shorts combo is the best in all the land

this is a homer call and personal preference of course, so you're welcome to it. but the gray helmets knock it down a few pegs.

[Wood Sticks 4ever]

How about when you are up 3 with a 1:08 left and you have Zinn running untouched down the middle of the quagmire? Are you surprised that a freshman who had played little in the game started a sequence that turned it over and you had to sweat out the last 30 seconds?

Not to nit pick, but Zinn didn't turn the ball over. In fact, between the physical defense he played and the interception, he just reinforced the fact that he has the size and speed we need at middie. The problem on that clear occurred with Kuhn, who lost the ball trying to spin (or, according to the announcers from hell, trying to throw a behind the back pass)

[runrussellrun]

I watched the limited UNC-Hopkins highlights on YouTube and saw more dirty hits from Hopkins, but did not see the hit mentioned in earlier posts by Cook. UNC captain Kelly got slammed in the shoulder/back on a late hit and the Rowlett got buried in the back on the last faceoff.

I hope Hopkins loses the rest of your games.

A separate post mentioned UNC smurfs at midfield. Epstein is not necessarily a muscle man.

Here is the Cook hit on McManus: https://www.instagram.com/p/BuPLV42BEif/

It's as clear cut a case of targeting as I've ever seen in lacrosse.

Also, I'm not seeing Rowlett get hit anywhere on the final faceoff. The player Williams hits is not Rowlett. It's a different UNC defenseman, either Macri or Egan. Rowlett is several yards away. The hit is also not in the back.

Rowlett does, however, throw a punch in that little scuffle after the game was over. Hopefully no ACC officials were watching. Cook also has a hold of Epstein's facemask. Just take the L and get off your gross muddy "field."

A few other observations of the actual game:

- 51 is right, transition game was huge yesterday. At this point Kuhn is a bigger threat on offense than half of our offensive middies.
- McManus got beat later on but he at least showed an ability to stop his matchup and put in a good defensive shift—something the other #3 SSDMs have yet to show. My guess is his role grows. The hit in which a UNC player's helmet popped off looked like a soft call to me. Both players collided evenly, one guy's helmet was not strapped in tight enough, thus he wins the penalty.
- Can't tell on the first Kelly no-goal dive but on the second one he very obviously steps in the crease before jumping. Even with the mud it was clear as day
- This offense struggles mightily against aggressive defenses that press out. The munchkin middies are all a turnover waiting to happen. No team is going to pack it in on D against the Jays and let them move the ball quickly.
- Williams was not good but I think he had it a tad harder than most yesterday—his center of gravity is too high for a muddy field. He had trouble with his footing and couldn't really cut as he's used to doing—his go-to spin move to get to his left hand was not an option
- DeSimone is not making the sophomore leap I expected him to
- It may be that Narewski has performed well against weaker competition (relative to the Woodalls and Arceris of the world) but I have not seen him get beat cleanly very often—the ones he loses he's at least making it a scrap and cutting off a transition opp for the other team. And if not for the mud he would have won many more cleanly to himself yesterday. I like what I'm seeing. Best of all—he's an athlete capable of getting out of trouble himself. No more no-look hail mary passes over the shoulder
- Still hard for me to get a read on Darby—he seems to save a few that he shouldn't every game and then give up a few that he should save. He had one or two very impressive kick saves yesterday but there was on—Atayan's 2nd goal maybe?—that has to be blocked.

Princeton is coming off a heartbreaker to UVA, and we all know what happened last time at Class of '52 Stadium. Jays can't count on the Tigers to lose their cool and give them extra penalties as UNC did. The strategy starts and ends with defending Sowers—Foley has to have a good game

Thank you for the instagram, where it is clear Cook hit him in the upper chest....NOT the head.

Cooks problem was the one hand off the stick....gonna get you a penalty all the time.

[runrussellrun]

Define targeting. Is it leading with your forearm, stick to your left and not involved in the hit, and hitting your "target" in the chest with your forearm?

Coupled with Marrs flop.......is Hopkins employing these guys?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07mBfR8erMY

[wgdsr]

How about when you are up 3 with a 1:08 left and you have Zinn running untouched down the middle of the quagmire? Are you surprised that a freshman who had played little in the game started a sequence that turned it over and you had to sweat out the last 30 seconds?

Not to nit pick, but Zinn didn't turn the ball over. In fact, between the physical defense he played and the interception, he just reinforced the fact that he has the size and speed we need at middie. The problem on that clear occurred with Kuhn, who lost the ball trying to spin (or, according to the announcers from hell, trying to throw a behind the back pass)

he said he started the sequence. twice, in fact. he threw the ball out to marr earlier than he needed to (35 yds) that ended up being a short hop that marr fortunately picked up. this was the opportunity for a timeout. with carolina having a numbers advantage within 20 yds of the ball (3 v 4, a carolina sub approaching marr for a double), marr threw it back out to zinn.
who again, got the ball out of his stick too quick. this time to a pole who had one hand on his stick and wasn't prepared or asking for the ball. zinn's pass was again low, forcing kuhn to adjust low to get it, and by then an oncoming mid was about to slam his butt end. it's not clear whether the check got there first or he was in fact flipping it behind him. either way he shouldn't have been put in that position.
whether he was tired or because he was a freshman, or both... he should've been making more measured plays. which will come with experience likely. tinney wouldn't have, as an example. and an argument could be made that would've been a good spot for a TO (when marr had it for a second). but that's hindsight and only perfect through that lens.

[HopFan16]

How about when you are up 3 with a 1:08 left and you have Zinn running untouched down the middle of the quagmire? Are you surprised that a freshman who had played little in the game started a sequence that turned it over and you had to sweat out the last 30 seconds?

Not to nit pick, but Zinn didn't turn the ball over. In fact, between the physical defense he played and the interception, he just reinforced the fact that he has the size and speed we need at middie. The problem on that clear occurred with Kuhn, who lost the ball trying to spin (or, according to the announcers from hell, trying to throw a behind the back pass)

he said he started the sequence. twice, in fact. he threw the ball out to marr earlier than he needed to (35 yds) that ended up being a short hop that marr fortunately picked up. this was the opportunity for a timeout. with carolina having a numbers advantage within 20 yds of the ball (3 v 4, a carolina sub approaching marr for a double), marr threw it back out to zinn.
who again, got the ball out of his stick too quick. this time to a pole who had one hand on his stick and wasn't prepared or asking for the ball. zinn's pass was again low, forcing kuhn to adjust low to get it, and by then an oncoming mid was about to slam his butt end. it's not clear whether the check got there first or he was in fact flipping it behind him. either way he shouldn't have been put in that position.
whether he was tired or because he was a freshman, or both... he should've been making more measured plays. which will come with experience likely. tinney wouldn't have, as an example. and an argument could be made that would've been a good spot for a TO (when marr had it for a second). but that's hindsight and only perfect through that lens.

Lot of criticism for a kid who picked the ball off. The two passes weren't perfect. But, to reiterate—and this is important—he caused a turnover on defense. Seems odd to pile on about that sequence without acknowledging how the Jays came to be in possession of the ball in the first place? The first pass to Marr was definitely too short, but Kuhn should have done more with the second one. He could have passed or moved it forward into the offensive end, instead he tried a risky spin move at midfield which was a turnover waiting to happen.

In each game with extremely limited playing time, Zinn has done something good, whether it's been a nice assist in transition, a tough groundball, or a caused turnover. And that's just as an SSDM...he's had virtually no opportunity whatsoever to show what he can do in the offensive end. It surely can't be much less than what the current crop of middies is offering. At the very least I trust his ability to dodge downhill and separate, and get the defense moving a little bit, than the munchkins who aren't beating anyone right now.

[PeteStreet]

Thank you for the instagram, where it is clear Cook hit him in the upper chest....NOT the head.

Cooks problem was the one hand off the stick....gonna get you a penalty all the time.

You have to be trolling...it was clearly a hit to his head, hence why he grabbed his helmet in presumable shock/pain immediately following the impact.

[calourie]

Thank you for the instagram, where it is clear Cook hit him in the upper chest....NOT the head.

Cooks problem was the one hand off the stick....gonna get you a penalty all the time.

You have to be trolling...it was clearly a hit to his head, hence why he grabbed his helmet in presumable shock/pain immediately following the impact.

No dog in this fight, but a dirty targeting hit regardless of what people like R3 want to quibble about.

[runrussellrun]

Thank you for the instagram, where it is clear Cook hit him in the upper chest....NOT the head.

Cooks problem was the one hand off the stick....gonna get you a penalty all the time.

You have to be trolling...it was clearly a hit to his head, hence why he grabbed his helmet in presumable shock/pain immediately following the impact.

fishing is great in this pond, so yeah....that.

Macmanus' head sure did jolt back, but if you think any part of Cooks arm actually hit the head, you are hallucinating. Do you know how to pause video?

[runrussellrun]

Thank you for the instagram, where it is clear Cook hit him in the upper chest....NOT the head.

Cooks problem was the one hand off the stick....gonna get you a penalty all the time.

You have to be trolling...it was clearly a hit to his head, hence why he grabbed his helmet in presumable shock/pain immediately following the impact.

No dog in this fight, but a dirty targeting hit regardless of what people like R3 want to quibble about.

The player had the ball .......go play baseball if you don't like hitting.

[calourie]

Not the point R3. It was a dirty hit. Maybe that's okay by you, but not the way any game should be played or refereed. Refs made the right call.

[runrussellrun]

Not the point R3. It was a dirty hit. Maybe that's okay by you, but not the way any game should be played or refereed. Refs made the right call.

It was NOT dirty....it was illegal. It was illegal because Cook had one hand on his stick. Leading with the free arm, thrusting upward didn't help. But, it wasn't dirty. Perhaps you would prefer what every other "clean hit" is, thrusting the metal shaft into the torso. As pointed out, plenty of those in this game. And every other.

Watch it again.

Cooks hit was NOT dirty.....anymore than most of these hits. BTW, most NOT penalities. hmm.....why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJRQZi58Gq4

[PeteStreet]

Thank you for the instagram, where it is clear Cook hit him in the upper chest....NOT the head.

Cooks problem was the one hand off the stick....gonna get you a penalty all the time.

You have to be trolling...it was clearly a hit to his head, hence why he grabbed his helmet in presumable shock/pain immediately following the impact.

fishing is great in this pond, so yeah....that.

Macmanus' head sure did jolt back, but if you think any part of Cooks arm actually hit the head, you are hallucinating. Do you know how to pause video?

Of course his head jolted back...because he was hit in the head. Something something equal and opposite reaction. I’ll assume you know some basic physics. You are the only person I’ve seen trying to argue he wasn’t hit in the head.

[runrussellrun]

Take a screen shot of Cooks arm hitting his head, please. That dark thing on his upper chest? Its called an elbow pad.

Regardless, you wanna call it illegal. Fine. Dirty? Nonsense.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

Screenshot? How about what the refs saw in real time? More than your average contact, thus in the sin bin for an extended time.

Are you not paying attention to concussions and the movement across all sports from the NFL on down to try to lessen contact to the head?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Take a screen shot of Cooks arm hitting his head, please. That dark thing on his upper chest? Its called an elbow pad.

Regardless, you wanna call it illegal. Fine. Dirty? Nonsense.

It was dirty.

[primitiveskills]

Wow, the trolls are really out. Let's look at what would happen in other sports with Cook's hit:
NCAA football- ejection
NFL: fine, possible suspension
NHL: 10 minute misconduct penalty, ejection, probable fine.

[TheBigIguana]

Take a screen shot of Cooks arm hitting his head, please. That dark thing on his upper chest? Its called an elbow pad.

Regardless, you wanna call it illegal. Fine. Dirty? Nonsense.

You are right in that his elbow pad hit his chest. The problem is people have the rest of their arm that connects the elbow to the shoulder and immediately above the chest is the guys head. His upper arm hit him in the head. He also aimed for his head. It's the dirtiest hit I've seen in a long time and it is honestly a bit shameful that you are out here trying to defend it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Take a screen shot of Cooks arm hitting his head, please. That dark thing on his upper chest? Its called an elbow pad.

Regardless, you wanna call it illegal. Fine. Dirty? Nonsense.

You are right in that his elbow pad hit his chest. The problem is people have the rest of their arm that connects the elbow to the shoulder and immediately above the chest is the guys head. His upper arm hit him in the head. He also aimed for his head. It's the dirtiest hit I've seen in a long time and it is honestly a bit shameful that you are out here trying to defend it.

It’s the box element that the Canadian players sometimes bring to the game. It was a dirty play. Lined the player up and was head hunting.

[wgdsr]

How about when you are up 3 with a 1:08 left and you have Zinn running untouched down the middle of the quagmire? Are you surprised that a freshman who had played little in the game started a sequence that turned it over and you had to sweat out the last 30 seconds?

Not to nit pick, but Zinn didn't turn the ball over. In fact, between the physical defense he played and the interception, he just reinforced the fact that he has the size and speed we need at middie. The problem on that clear occurred with Kuhn, who lost the ball trying to spin (or, according to the announcers from hell, trying to throw a behind the back pass)

he said he started the sequence. twice, in fact. he threw the ball out to marr earlier than he needed to (35 yds) that ended up being a short hop that marr fortunately picked up. this was the opportunity for a timeout. with carolina having a numbers advantage within 20 yds of the ball (3 v 4, a carolina sub approaching marr for a double), marr threw it back out to zinn.
who again, got the ball out of his stick too quick. this time to a pole who had one hand on his stick and wasn't prepared or asking for the ball. zinn's pass was again low, forcing kuhn to adjust low to get it, and by then an oncoming mid was about to slam his butt end. it's not clear whether the check got there first or he was in fact flipping it behind him. either way he shouldn't have been put in that position.
whether he was tired or because he was a freshman, or both... he should've been making more measured plays. which will come with experience likely. tinney wouldn't have, as an example. and an argument could be made that would've been a good spot for a TO (when marr had it for a second). but that's hindsight and only perfect through that lens.

Lot of criticism for a kid who picked the ball off. The two passes weren't perfect. But, to reiterate—and this is important—he caused a turnover on defense. Seems odd to pile on about that sequence without acknowledging how the Jays came to be in possession of the ball in the first place? The first pass to Marr was definitely too short, but Kuhn should have done more with the second one. He could have passed or moved it forward into the offensive end, instead he tried a risky spin move at midfield which was a turnover waiting to happen.

In each game with extremely limited playing time, Zinn has done something good, whether it's been a nice assist in transition, a tough groundball, or a caused turnover. And that's just as an SSDM...he's had virtually no opportunity whatsoever to show what he can do in the offensive end. It surely can't be much less than what the current crop of middies is offering. At the very least I trust his ability to dodge downhill and separate, and get the defense moving a little bit, than the munchkins who aren't beating anyone right now.

none of what i said was meant to be a criticism but a critique and on the play(s).
and if you followed the thread (which was broken up), i first provided an explanation to 51 about how a timeout coundn't have been called when zinn had the ball and left it at that.
and then it was opined about kuhn's play at the time (which you largely agree with)... i disagree with that assessment(like 180 degrees, frankly can't even imagine why you guys see kuhn as at fault here)) and jumped in with an opinion in defense of him basically... and wouldn't have commented otherwise.
anyway, i expect zinn'll get better at it with experience and said as much.
-- the coaches put him in on offense right before they turned it over --- and they had him in there knowing it was an important possession and that he might get caught in on d. which he did. if they trusted him to make the plays thru all of that (and a clear), then i would as well.. it was noted he made the play to get the ball back.
you get there by going thru it. isn't that what many observers wanted for williams 2 years ago?

would i expect him to miss those plays?
no.
am i surprised, with the limited early experience this year?
no.
there's more nuance,but the long is he's probably farther along this week for going thru it.

and again it should be noted --- they were up 3 goals. with less than a minute left. had not some really odd next circumstances happened, no one is talking about any of this.