Voting Rights

[lagerhead]

How do you differentiate between an undocumented DL vs real DL, that’s rife for abuse and I believe some immigration rights groups don’t favor it because undocumented could get the wrong DL and be deported/prosecuted. Falsification of government docs whether by mistake or not.

As noted, citizenship gets vetted at the time of registration. That's when your name gets put on the voting rolls.

At the polls, the only question is whether the guy presenting as John Smith is actually the John Smith who lives at 123 Main Street. So showing up with a recent utility bill or bank statement that says John Smith, 123 Main Street is a pretty good way to do the job.

If someone wants to steal or fake utility bills or bank statements at the volume needed to vote in person (i.e. while being videotaped) to be election outcome determinative, go for it. Can't think of any crime that is easier to catch.

BTW I do see your point of voter ID versus registered voter status. I would like to see something more than a signature which has become outdated with the additional ways to vote.

You should also be allowed to vote for best candidate regardless of party in both primary and election

So voting is complicated and the right to do so is as well.

[ggait]

And to be clear how does a utility bill give you the right to register without other backup docs?

Registration is a different process than checking voter ID at the polls.

The utility bill is used to confirm the identity of a person who is already registered and on the voter rolls.

Motor voter already exists in all 50 states. Since that has been federal law since 1993.

The only current issue is whether that should be made automatic in all 50 states (which is Manchin's proposal). Only automatic today in about 18 states.

Given the real ID stuff that attached to DMV IDs, it is most secure to do voter registration at the DMV.

[ggait]

BTW I do see your point of voter ID versus registered voter status. I would like to see something more than a signature which has become outdated with the additional ways to vote.

I agree.

I think it is a very good idea to do voter ID (as an option not mandatory) via DL number or SS number. Personally, I'd be more comfortable knowing that my ballot was going to be counted (by providing DL number) rather than waiting/wondering if my signature is still the same as it was when I vote registered years ago.

Especially when you are doing a lot of mail-in voting, a number would be an effective/efficient way to prove identity. So you'd only need to do signature verification for a small percentage of the submitted ballots.

GA had that in their law. Problem was that GA wanted that to be the exclusive way to do ID verification. Which then raises all of the disenfranchising issues that comes from strict photo voter ID.

A neutral/fair/reasonable GA law would have allowed numbers and/or signatures to be used to verify. Would have speeded up processing and verification for 95% of ballots, without putting the other 5% at risk.

This is all pretty common sense stuff to do, so long as the process isn't tainted by partisan gaming.

[Peter Brown]

Someone living in leafy Boulder CO has no clue just how corrupt inner city voting is. Name any large American city, and today’s voting corruption isn’t much different than Tammany Hall days. It’s a total free for all with unaudited votes, street cash, and unreliable voting rolls ripe for the picking.

So, here are my suggestions.

Mail in voting is fine provided there’s signature match or drivers license verification. Also all mail in votes must be received by voting day; if late, too freaking bad, they’re tossed.

No problem with voting at 18 provided drinking age is also 18. Military, vote, and drinking age to all be same. I’d prefer voting to begin at 25.

All votes must be tabulated the day of voting. No excuses for delays.

Voting rolls must be audited and cross referenced in a national data base once every ten years. Purge those who have died or moved.

[ggait]

Glad to see the Pete has fully signed onto the Dem voting proposals.

Mail in voting is fine provided there’s signature match or drivers license verification.

We agree. So wide spread (and even universal) mail-in voting is AOK with Pete. As it should be. FL has actually been in the lead on this (well maybe not so much recently).

FYI, every place already does sig verification. And no one objects to adding DL/SS numbers as an additional/optional verifier. Number just can't be mandatory/exclusive.

Also all mail in votes must be received by voting day; if late, too freaking bad, they’re tossed.

We agree again.

Many states (like Colorado) already do this. But to make the ED cut off work, you have to have drop boxes. You can't have a hard cut off if you don't provide me a drop box that I can use on the Monday before Election Day.

So Pete is AOK with ample drop boxes open 24/7 with reasonable security (which is already done fyi). Again FL has been a leader here -- 1.5 million drop box votes in 2020 (but not so much recently).

No problem with voting at 18 provided drinking age is also 18. Military, vote, and drinking age to all be same. I’d prefer voting to begin at 25.

Gotta amend the Constitution for this one. Go for it.

All votes must be tabulated the day of voting. No excuses for delays.

We agree again.

Many states already do this (FL, CO). Dumb not to do this. But in places where this is not done, it has been because the GOP objected to processing votes as received. PA was slow to count because the GOP in PA wouldn't allow counties to early process the early mail in ballots. Hence the whole red mirage/blue wave thing.

And, as noted above, you gotta have drop boxes if you want to have an ED cut off and results on ED.

FL (again) is good at this (but not so much recently).

Voting rolls must be audited and cross referenced in a national data base once every ten years. Purge those who have died or moved.

We agree again. FYI, maintenance of voter rolls has been federal law since 1993 -- NVRA. The only problem with list maintenance is when fascist a-holes distort normal and reasonable list maintenance into a partisan tool.

As with everything else regarding voting, Colorado does it the right, non-partisan way. Link below.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... enance.pdf

[MDlaxfan76]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.




A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.

Remember, of course, that voting fraudulently is against the law, a felony. In Colorado, the Class 5 felony penalty is $5,000 or 18 months in jail, or both.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... esFAQ.html

So the only way to have non-citizens voting illegally be widespread enough to move the needle is to persuade a very large number of non-citizens to risk being caught doing so. And doing so risks deportation as well.

Which is why such is so very rare.

Voting twice or in different jurisdictions, more than one of which would be illegal, is a mite easier, but also very risky for the offender. And not prevented by a picture ID.

Okay but someone voting illegally is not going to care about the penalty.
Not talking about moving the needle you need to be a citizen to vote how do those docs prove that?
I didn’t mention picture ids the additional documentation needed for the other ids does that. Why allow those forms of ID I quoted as a singular point of affirmation of voting rights?

Why do you think someone would risk $5000 fine or 18 months in jail, or both, just to register a single vote?

Note that you do need to be registered voter before voting. These forms of identity proof simply indicate that you are indeed the registered voter on the list when you show up to vote. But you can't vote if you're not registered.

[MDlaxfan76]

Glad to see the Pete has fully signed onto the Dem voting proposals.

Mail in voting is fine provided there’s signature match or drivers license verification.

We agree. So wide spread (and even universal) mail-in voting is AOK with Pete. As it should be. FL has actually been in the lead on this (well maybe not so much recently).

FYI, every place already does sig verification. And no one objects to adding DL/SS numbers as an additional/optional verifier. Number just can't be mandatory/exclusive.

Also all mail in votes must be received by voting day; if late, too freaking bad, they’re tossed.

We agree again.

Many states (like Colorado) already do this. But to make the ED cut off work, you have to have drop boxes. You can't have a hard cut off if you don't provide me a drop box that I can use on the Monday before Election Day.

So Pete is AOK with ample drop boxes open 24/7 with reasonable security (which is already done fyi). Again FL has been a leader here -- 1.5 million drop box votes in 2020 (but not so much recently).

No problem with voting at 18 provided drinking age is also 18. Military, vote, and drinking age to all be same. I’d prefer voting to begin at 25.

Gotta amend the Constitution for this one. Go for it.

All votes must be tabulated the day of voting. No excuses for delays.

We agree again.

Many states already do this (FL, CO). Dumb not to do this. But in places where this is not done, it has been because the GOP objected to processing votes as received. PA was slow to count because the GOP in PA wouldn't allow counties to early process the early mail in ballots. Hence the whole red mirage/blue wave thing.

And, as noted above, you gotta have drop boxes if you want to have an ED cut off and results on ED.

FL (again) is good at this (but not so much recently).

Voting rolls must be audited and cross referenced in a national data base once every ten years. Purge those who have died or moved.

We agree again. FYI, maintenance of voter rolls has been federal law since 1993 -- NVRA. The only problem with list maintenance is when fascist a-holes distort normal and reasonable list maintenance into a partisan tool.

As with everything else regarding voting, Colorado does it the right, non-partisan way. Link below.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... enance.pdf

Good summary...yet, guys like Pete vote for those "fascist a-holes" who claim, like Pete, that there's massive fraud going on...where? in those "inner city" cesspools of corruption...read black and brown....

It's not really a surprise, though a disappointment, that the GOP Senators won't even debate voting and election rules for federal elections...claiming "states rights"...old story, it just didn't use to be exclusively the GOP arguing for voter suppression in the name of "states rights". Indeed, much of the GOP was on the other side of those debates.

[Peter Brown]

Glad to see the Pete has fully signed onto the Dem voting proposals.

Mail in voting is fine provided there’s signature match or drivers license verification.

We agree. So wide spread (and even universal) mail-in voting is AOK with Pete. As it should be. FL has actually been in the lead on this (well maybe not so much recently).

FYI, every place already does sig verification. And no one objects to adding DL/SS numbers as an additional/optional verifier. Number just can't be mandatory/exclusive.

Also all mail in votes must be received by voting day; if late, too freaking bad, they’re tossed.

We agree again.

Many states (like Colorado) already do this. But to make the ED cut off work, you have to have drop boxes. You can't have a hard cut off if you don't provide me a drop box that I can use on the Monday before Election Day.

So Pete is AOK with ample drop boxes open 24/7 with reasonable security (which is already done fyi). Again FL has been a leader here -- 1.5 million drop box votes in 2020 (but not so much recently).

No problem with voting at 18 provided drinking age is also 18. Military, vote, and drinking age to all be same. I’d prefer voting to begin at 25.

Gotta amend the Constitution for this one. Go for it.

All votes must be tabulated the day of voting. No excuses for delays.

We agree again.

Many states already do this (FL, CO). Dumb not to do this. But in places where this is not done, it has been because the GOP objected to processing votes as received. PA was slow to count because the GOP in PA wouldn't allow counties to early process the early mail in ballots. Hence the whole red mirage/blue wave thing.

And, as noted above, you gotta have drop boxes if you want to have an ED cut off and results on ED.

FL (again) is good at this (but not so much recently).

Voting rolls must be audited and cross referenced in a national data base once every ten years. Purge those who have died or moved.

We agree again. FYI, maintenance of voter rolls has been federal law since 1993 -- NVRA. The only problem with list maintenance is when fascist a-holes distort normal and reasonable list maintenance into a partisan tool.

As with everything else regarding voting, Colorado does it the right, non-partisan way. Link below.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... enance.pdf

Good summary...yet, guys like Pete vote for those "fascist a-holes" who claim, like Pete, that there's massive fraud going on...where? in those "inner city" cesspools of corruption...read black and brown....

It's not really a surprise, though a disappointment, that the GOP Senators won't even debate voting and election rules for federal elections...claiming "states rights"...old story, it just didn't use to be exclusively the GOP arguing for voter suppression in the name of "states rights". Indeed, much of the GOP was on the other side of those debates.

Do you know that 10% of Democrats think Joe didn’t win fairly?

https://thenationalpulse.com/breaking/5 ... in-fairly/

[MDlaxfan76]

Rasmussen!

[Peter Brown]

Rasmussen!

For a guy who reflexively believes a mainstream media which time and again is shown as being nothing more than dishonest biased propagandists, you certainly do have stones dismissing Rasmussen.

And of course, never address the issue raised.

[MDlaxfan76]

Rasmussen!

For a guy who reflexively believes a mainstream media which time and again is shown as being nothing more than dishonest biased propagandists, you certainly do have stones dismissing Rasmussen.

And of course, never address the issue raised.

What issue raised?
Seriously, what issue?

Rasmussen polls are a joke.
You might as well just call Mar-A-Lago and ask what they think.

[ggait]

Do you know that 10% of Democrats think Joe didn’t win fairly?

A lot of stupid people believe lots of completely stupid and false shirt.

10% of Americans think the moon landings were fake (actual poll number fyi). 44% of Republicans believe that Bill Gates is using COVID-19 vaccine for a mass microchip injection plot (actual poll number).

Whether it is the 10% of Dems or the 53% of Republicans who think Trump won, they are all forking morons.

Who should be called out as such and then also ignored when establishing public policy.

[Peter Brown]

Do you know that 10% of Democrats think Joe didn’t win fairly?

A lot of stupid people believe lots of completely stupid and false shirt.

10% of Americans think the moon landings were fake (actual poll number fyi). 44% of Republicans believe that Bill Gates is using COVID-19 vaccine for a mass microchip injection plot (actual poll number).

Whether it is the 10% of Dems or the 53% of Republicans who think Trump won, they are all forking morons.

Who should be called out as such and then also ignored when establishing public policy.

ggait is getting more rational with old age. I agree with his posts.

That all said, I used the poll result because MD was (again) slamming Republicans when he claimed that only insane Republicans think the election was fraudulently won.

[lagerhead]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.




A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.

Remember, of course, that voting fraudulently is against the law, a felony. In Colorado, the Class 5 felony penalty is $5,000 or 18 months in jail, or both.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... esFAQ.html

So the only way to have non-citizens voting illegally be widespread enough to move the needle is to persuade a very large number of non-citizens to risk being caught doing so. And doing so risks deportation as well.

Which is why such is so very rare.

Voting twice or in different jurisdictions, more than one of which would be illegal, is a mite easier, but also very risky for the offender. And not prevented by a picture ID.

Okay but someone voting illegally is not going to care about the penalty.
Not talking about moving the needle you need to be a citizen to vote how do those docs prove that?
I didn’t mention picture ids the additional documentation needed for the other ids does that. Why allow those forms of ID I quoted as a singular point of affirmation of voting rights?

Why do you think someone would risk $5000 fine or 18 months in jail, or both, just to register a single vote?

Note that you do need to be registered voter before voting. These forms of identity proof simply indicate that you are indeed the registered voter on the list when you show up to vote. But you can't vote if you're not registered.

When the DMV in California went to motor voter it registered a large number of ineligible people. Registered voters are targeted by all parties while electioneering, those that are targeted and automatically registered in error may think they have the right to vote. Enrollment in motor voter should be an affirmation not automatically put on the rolls.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... ation-foes

https://www.usavisacounsel.com/articles ... n-trap.htm

[MDlaxfan76]

Do you know that 10% of Democrats think Joe didn’t win fairly?

A lot of stupid people believe lots of completely stupid and false shirt.

10% of Americans think the moon landings were fake (actual poll number fyi). 44% of Republicans believe that Bill Gates is using COVID-19 vaccine for a mass microchip injection plot (actual poll number).

Whether it is the 10% of Dems or the 53% of Republicans who think Trump won, they are all forking morons.

Who should be called out as such and then also ignored when establishing public policy.

ggait is getting more rational with old age. I agree with his posts.

That all said, I used the poll result because MD was (again) slamming Republicans when he claimed that only insane Republicans think the election was fraudulently won.

Another lie. So easy for you.

I never said only Republicans, or only insane Republicans for that matter, think that Biden didn't win fair and square.

Never said anything remotely close.

Now if you ask me whether I believe a Rasmussen poll on any topic, I say no, because they don't run credible polls, both in calling methodology and in how they ask questions. They construct their polls to get answers they want. Not credible.

One aspect is that those polled by Rasmussen may well misrepresent their party affiliation once they know the purpose of the poll. Leading this way is an old trick of those dishonest in the trade.

Rasmussen happens to see their role as propagandists, not actual pollsters.

Now, on the actual topic, there are lots of insane people in the world, many of them Americans, and even higher proportion apparently in Florida. Not all belong to one party or another...

But yes, you do need to be insane, or at least badly delusional, to think that the election wasn't overwhelmingly clean and Biden won fair and square and by a wide margin. Indeed, a whole of lot of GOP election officials have testified to that fact.

But I'm sure you can get some people to claim otherwise AND to claim they are also Democrats...and a few may actually be! Seriously whack jobs...

[MDlaxfan76]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.




A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.

Remember, of course, that voting fraudulently is against the law, a felony. In Colorado, the Class 5 felony penalty is $5,000 or 18 months in jail, or both.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... esFAQ.html

So the only way to have non-citizens voting illegally be widespread enough to move the needle is to persuade a very large number of non-citizens to risk being caught doing so. And doing so risks deportation as well.

Which is why such is so very rare.

Voting twice or in different jurisdictions, more than one of which would be illegal, is a mite easier, but also very risky for the offender. And not prevented by a picture ID.

Okay but someone voting illegally is not going to care about the penalty.
Not talking about moving the needle you need to be a citizen to vote how do those docs prove that?
I didn’t mention picture ids the additional documentation needed for the other ids does that. Why allow those forms of ID I quoted as a singular point of affirmation of voting rights?

Why do you think someone would risk $5000 fine or 18 months in jail, or both, just to register a single vote?

Note that you do need to be registered voter before voting. These forms of identity proof simply indicate that you are indeed the registered voter on the list when you show up to vote. But you can't vote if you're not registered.

When the DMV in California went to motor voter it registered a large number of ineligible people. Registered voters are targeted by all parties while electioneering, those that are targeted and automatically registered in error may think they have the right to vote. Enrollment in motor voter should be an affirmation not automatically put on the rolls.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... ation-foes

https://www.usavisacounsel.com/articles ... n-trap.htm

They found one non-citizen voter registered incorrectly out of how many???
Ohh the horror.

But sure, we don't want non-citizens voting.
But seriously, would you risk a $5k fine, 18 months in jail, deportation just to vote illegally?

[lagerhead]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.




A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.

Remember, of course, that voting fraudulently is against the law, a felony. In Colorado, the Class 5 felony penalty is $5,000 or 18 months in jail, or both.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... esFAQ.html

So the only way to have non-citizens voting illegally be widespread enough to move the needle is to persuade a very large number of non-citizens to risk being caught doing so. And doing so risks deportation as well.

Which is why such is so very rare.

Voting twice or in different jurisdictions, more than one of which would be illegal, is a mite easier, but also very risky for the offender. And not prevented by a picture ID.

Okay but someone voting illegally is not going to care about the penalty.
Not talking about moving the needle you need to be a citizen to vote how do those docs prove that?
I didn’t mention picture ids the additional documentation needed for the other ids does that. Why allow those forms of ID I quoted as a singular point of affirmation of voting rights?

Why do you think someone would risk $5000 fine or 18 months in jail, or both, just to register a single vote?

Note that you do need to be registered voter before voting. These forms of identity proof simply indicate that you are indeed the registered voter on the list when you show up to vote. But you can't vote if you're not registered.

When the DMV in California went to motor voter it registered a large number of ineligible people. Registered voters are targeted by all parties while electioneering, those that are targeted and automatically registered in error may think they have the right to vote. Enrollment in motor voter should be an affirmation not automatically put on the rolls.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... ation-foes

https://www.usavisacounsel.com/articles ... n-trap.htm

They found one non-citizen voter registered incorrectly out of how many???
Ohh the horror.

But sure, we don't want non-citizens voting.
But seriously, would you risk a $5k fine, 18 months in jail, deportation just to vote illegally?

How many people know the law or read the fine print?

sorry charley we are going to disagree on the sanctity of one of the most sacrosanct rights written in the constitution.

[ggait]

When the DMV in California went to motor voter it registered a large number of ineligible people. Registered voters are targeted by all parties while electioneering, those that are targeted and automatically registered in error may think they have the right to vote. Enrollment in motor voter should be an affirmation not automatically put on the rolls.

Colorado ranks number one in the nation in voter registration, with 90 percent of eligible Coloradans registered.

Why? Automatic motor voter registration. Which Joe Manchin has wisely included in his proposal.

Colorado also consistently ranks in the top 5 state for voter turnout.

Why? Broad no fault mail in voting and a fork ton of secure drop boxes open 24/7 for several weeks before and through ED. Which Joe Manchin has also wisely included in his proposal.

We also cut off voting at 7 pm on ED. We also count the votes as they come in. So election results are available wicked fast after the polls close and we don't have to mess around with the post-marked ballots that show up on Friday.

Colorado voters also chose several years ago to rid our fair state of partisan gerry-mandering. Manchin's proposal wisely includes this.

So if you want free, fair, secure elections, just do what Colorado does. Which is 180 degrees from what you are seeing out of the GOP legislatures these days.

Having more registered independents than Dems or GOPs definitely helps us keep the partisan rat-forking at bay.

[PizzaSnake]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.




A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.

Remember, of course, that voting fraudulently is against the law, a felony. In Colorado, the Class 5 felony penalty is $5,000 or 18 months in jail, or both.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... esFAQ.html

So the only way to have non-citizens voting illegally be widespread enough to move the needle is to persuade a very large number of non-citizens to risk being caught doing so. And doing so risks deportation as well.

Which is why such is so very rare.

Voting twice or in different jurisdictions, more than one of which would be illegal, is a mite easier, but also very risky for the offender. And not prevented by a picture ID.

Okay but someone voting illegally is not going to care about the penalty.
Not talking about moving the needle you need to be a citizen to vote how do those docs prove that?
I didn’t mention picture ids the additional documentation needed for the other ids does that. Why allow those forms of ID I quoted as a singular point of affirmation of voting rights?

Why do you think someone would risk $5000 fine or 18 months in jail, or both, just to register a single vote?

Note that you do need to be registered voter before voting. These forms of identity proof simply indicate that you are indeed the registered voter on the list when you show up to vote. But you can't vote if you're not registered.

When the DMV in California went to motor voter it registered a large number of ineligible people. Registered voters are targeted by all parties while electioneering, those that are targeted and automatically registered in error may think they have the right to vote. Enrollment in motor voter should be an affirmation not automatically put on the rolls.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... ation-foes

https://www.usavisacounsel.com/articles ... n-trap.htm

They found one non-citizen voter registered incorrectly out of how many???
Ohh the horror.

But sure, we don't want non-citizens voting.
But seriously, would you risk a $5k fine, 18 months in jail, deportation just to vote illegally?

How many people know the law or read the fine print?

sorry charley we are going to disagree on the sanctity of one of the most sacrosanct rights written in the constitution.

I'm curious as to how you would rank the rights enumerated in the constitution. Please include any relevant commentary on the need for the first 10 amendments and what necessitated them.

[cradleandshoot]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.




A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.

Remember, of course, that voting fraudulently is against the law, a felony. In Colorado, the Class 5 felony penalty is $5,000 or 18 months in jail, or both.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... esFAQ.html

So the only way to have non-citizens voting illegally be widespread enough to move the needle is to persuade a very large number of non-citizens to risk being caught doing so. And doing so risks deportation as well.

Which is why such is so very rare.

Voting twice or in different jurisdictions, more than one of which would be illegal, is a mite easier, but also very risky for the offender. And not prevented by a picture ID.

Okay but someone voting illegally is not going to care about the penalty.
Not talking about moving the needle you need to be a citizen to vote how do those docs prove that?
I didn’t mention picture ids the additional documentation needed for the other ids does that. Why allow those forms of ID I quoted as a singular point of affirmation of voting rights?

Why do you think someone would risk $5000 fine or 18 months in jail, or both, just to register a single vote?

Note that you do need to be registered voter before voting. These forms of identity proof simply indicate that you are indeed the registered voter on the list when you show up to vote. But you can't vote if you're not registered.

When the DMV in California went to motor voter it registered a large number of ineligible people. Registered voters are targeted by all parties while electioneering, those that are targeted and automatically registered in error may think they have the right to vote. Enrollment in motor voter should be an affirmation not automatically put on the rolls.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... ation-foes

https://www.usavisacounsel.com/articles ... n-trap.htm

They found one non-citizen voter registered incorrectly out of how many???
Ohh the horror.

But sure, we don't want non-citizens voting.
But seriously, would you risk a $5k fine, 18 months in jail, deportation just to vote illegally?

Your logic makes me chuckle MD. I live in a state where in most cities the DAs won't press charges for people that committed burglary, grand larceny and criminal mischief while looting and rioting. You think these same DAs will throw the book at someone for VOTER FRAUD? Monkeys will fly out of my backside before that ever happens.