Voting Rights

[Peter Brown]

Which is included in Manchin's proposal...that Stacy Abrams supports...ohh, the horror, the bluff is being called!

Stacey didn’t support. No Democrat did. I seem to recall Democrats and even Fanlax Democrats who said they used to be Republicans saying voter identification was racism, voter suppression!!!

Now they’re okay with voter identification. Weird how that change of heart comes the same day the Monmouth poll says 80% of American support voter identification. In fact the only group of people who object to voter identification are college educated whites. Too rich. Too predictable.

Lol.

Evolution huh?

[MDlaxfan76]

Which is included in Manchin's proposal...that Stacy Abrams supports...ohh, the horror, the bluff is being called!

Stacey didn’t support. No Democrat did. I seem to recall Democrats and even Fanlax Democrats who said they used to be Republicans saying voter identification was racism, voter suppression!!!

Now they’re okay with voter identification. Weird how that change of heart comes the same day the Monmouth poll says 80% of American support voter identification. In fact the only group of people who object to voter identification are college educated whites. Too rich. Too predictable.

Lol.

Evolution huh?

Again, twisting yourself in knots just to pee on others.

Abrams was very clear in support of the Manchin proposal and, like most actual students of elections and voter suppression tactics, have never opposed voter identification...what they have opposed is voter ID laws designed to make it difficult for people to establish their identity.

Subtle, I know...not what the Russian trolls tell you...

[Peter Brown]

Which is included in Manchin's proposal...that Stacy Abrams supports...ohh, the horror, the bluff is being called!

Stacey didn’t support. No Democrat did. I seem to recall Democrats and even Fanlax Democrats who said they used to be Republicans saying voter identification was racism, voter suppression!!!

Now they’re okay with voter identification. Weird how that change of heart comes the same day the Monmouth poll says 80% of American support voter identification. In fact the only group of people who object to voter identification are college educated whites. Too rich. Too predictable.

Lol.

Evolution huh?

Again, twisting yourself in knots just to pee on others.

Abrams was very clear in support of the Manchin proposal and, like most actual students of elections and voter suppression tactics, have never opposed voter identification...what they have opposed is voter ID laws designed to make it difficult for people to establish their identity.

Subtle, I know...not what the Russian trolls tell you...

Do you believe what you write? Honest question.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... -of-voting

[jhu72]

Which is included in Manchin's proposal...that Stacy Abrams supports...ohh, the horror, the bluff is being called!

Stacey didn’t support. No Democrat did. I seem to recall Democrats and even Fanlax Democrats who said they used to be Republicans saying voter identification was racism, voter suppression!!!

Now they’re okay with voter identification. Weird how that change of heart comes the same day the Monmouth poll says 80% of American support voter identification. In fact the only group of people who object to voter identification are college educated whites. Too rich. Too predictable.

Lol.

Evolution huh?

Again, twisting yourself in knots just to pee on others.

Abrams was very clear in support of the Manchin proposal and, like most actual students of elections and voter suppression tactics, have never opposed voter identification...what they have opposed is voter ID laws designed to make it difficult for people to establish their identity.

Subtle, I know...not what the Russian trolls tell you...

... you have it right. It is really easy to understand, no mysteries if you are actually paying attention.

[RedFromMI]

As Matt Yglesias said this morning on Twitter:

It always seems weird to me that we don’t have universal *provision* of photo ID to everyone as a state responsibility rather than turning ID acquisition into an administrative burden on citizens’ ability to do things.

My bolding. Just make it the burden of the state to issue photo IDs to anyone who needs them. Then the requirement of securing the vote does not make voting any harder for any particular subgroup.

[jhu72]

As Matt Yglesias said this morning on Twitter:

It always seems weird to me that we don’t have universal *provision* of photo ID to everyone as a state responsibility rather than turning ID acquisition into an administrative burden on citizens’ ability to do things.

My bolding. Just make it the burden of the state to issue photo IDs to anyone who needs them. Then the requirement of securing the vote does not make voting any harder for any particular subgroup.

... this has always been the liberal position. The right doesn't like the idea. NRA membership cards and Cracker Barrel gift cards would not be acceptable as proof of citizenship.

[cradleandshoot]

As Matt Yglesias said this morning on Twitter:

It always seems weird to me that we don’t have universal *provision* of photo ID to everyone as a state responsibility rather than turning ID acquisition into an administrative burden on citizens’ ability to do things.

My bolding. Just make it the burden of the state to issue photo IDs to anyone who needs them. Then the requirement of securing the vote does not make voting any harder for any particular subgroup.

... this has always been the liberal position. The right doesn't like the idea. NRA membership cards and Cracker Barrel gift cards would not be acceptable as proof of citizenship.

That would also mean that those white and blue benefit cards would not be acceptable proof as well..

[Brooklyn]

GOP ~ party of principle:



https://i.imgur.com/imkZvbb.jpeg




https://i.imgur.com/KrkqMgt.png



... yeah, right

[Peter Brown]

Watching MSNBC for me is like watching a great comedy show.

Apparently libs are upset about this voting bill, not necessarily because the evil Republicans stand athwart history (that of course is part of the comedy), but apparently the libs today are mad at both Biden and also all congressional Democrats for being unable to push this bill to a close. The libs are mad mad that their team is (again, apparently, at least according to them) junior varsity.



Chuck Todd is also very upset with his team.

I swear, if you ever want to have some gut laughs, just watch this channel. They hate Kirsten Synema, they hate Joe Manchin, they even hate Chuck Schumer because according to the libs, Chuck is actually a corporatist shill.

I swear, it’s like watching kindergarten children arguing. It’s made even more comical by the MSNBC hosts showing how liberal they are too, no one is even complaining about the Republicans! They’re all angry at their own team, because their team according to them isn’t liberal enough and won’t fight for communism. Clowns, literally all of them. How does anyone affiliate with this train wreck!

[Brooklyn]

{ yawn }

[MDlaxfan76]

Which is included in Manchin's proposal...that Stacy Abrams supports...ohh, the horror, the bluff is being called!

Stacey didn’t support. No Democrat did. I seem to recall Democrats and even Fanlax Democrats who said they used to be Republicans saying voter identification was racism, voter suppression!!!

Now they’re okay with voter identification. Weird how that change of heart comes the same day the Monmouth poll says 80% of American support voter identification. In fact the only group of people who object to voter identification are college educated whites. Too rich. Too predictable.

Lol.

Evolution huh?

Again, twisting yourself in knots just to pee on others.

Abrams was very clear in support of the Manchin proposal and, like most actual students of elections and voter suppression tactics, have never opposed voter identification...what they have opposed is voter ID laws designed to make it difficult for people to establish their identity.

Subtle, I know...not what the Russian trolls tell you...

Do you believe what you write? Honest question.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... -of-voting

Do you bother to read what you link?

I understand that you have difficulty with nuance and logic, but your linking this seems just aggressively on purpose dumb.

ahhh, lemme make it easier by color coding. Dems like Abrams have no issue with what's bolded in blue above (and as included in Manchin's proposal) but what Dems like Abrams have a big issue with is what is bolded in red above. And yup, that's what that article refers to, the red.

R's like me agree with the Dems on this one. Shouldn't be an issue for an R unless the effort is to make it harder to vote for some people who the party thinks they can't compete for on the merits of its ideas.

[ggait]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.



The following documents are acceptable forms of identification:

A valid Colorado driver’s license or valid identification card issued by the Colorado Department of Revenue. (Note: documents issued to not lawfully present and temporarily lawfully present individuals under Part 5 of Article 2 of Title 42, C.R.S. are not acceptable forms of identification.)
A valid U.S. passport.
A valid employee identification card with a photograph of the eligible elector issued by any branch, department, agency, or entity of the U.S. government or of Colorado, or by any county, municipality, board, authority, or other political subdivision of Colorado.
A valid pilot’s license issued by the federal aviation administration or other authorized agency of the U.S.
A valid U.S. military identification card with a photograph of the eligible elector.
A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
A Certificate of Degree of Indian or Alaskan Native Blood.
A valid Medicare or Medicaid card issued by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.
A certified copy of a U.S. birth certificate for the elector.
Certified documentation of naturalization.
A valid student identification card with a photograph of the eligible elector issued by an institute of higher education in Colorado, as defined in section 23-3.1-102(5), C.R.S..
A valid veteran identification card issued by the U.S. department of veterans affairs veterans health administration with a photograph of the eligible elector.
A valid identification card issued by a federally recognized tribal government certifying tribal membership.
Any form of identification listed above that shows your address must show a Colorado address to qualify as an acceptable form of identification.

The following documents are also considered acceptable forms of identification for voting:

Verification that a voter is a resident of a group residential facility, as defined in section 1-1-104(18.5), C.R.S.
Verification that a voter is a person committed to the department of human services and confined and eligible to register and vote shall be considered sufficient identification of such person for the purposes of section 1-2-210.5, C.R.S.
Written correspondence from the county sheriff or his or her designee to the county clerk indicating that a voter is confined in a county jail or detention facility.

[lagerhead]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.




A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.

[MDlaxfan76]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.




A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.

Remember, of course, that voting fraudulently is against the law, a felony. In Colorado, the Class 5 felony penalty is $5,000 or 18 months in jail, or both.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... esFAQ.html

So the only way to have non-citizens voting illegally be widespread enough to move the needle is to persuade a very large number of non-citizens to risk being caught doing so. And doing so risks deportation as well.

Which is why such is so very rare.

Voting twice or in different jurisdictions, more than one of which would be illegal, is a mite easier, but also very risky for the offender. And not prevented by a picture ID.

[ggait]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented?

Fair question.

The point of voter ID is to prove that the person standing at the table in the polling place is the same person listed on the voter registration rolls. It is to prevent me from pretending to be you and stealing your vote.

Proof of citizenship needs to be proven at the time the person registers to vote. That's a different/separate process. The best time to handle that stuff is at the DMV. Automatic motor voter registration is a really good idea.

Manchin's proposal makes automatic motor voter mandatory in all 50 states (while allowing individuals to opt out). While all states have some form of motor voter (required by the 1993 NVRA), only about 18 states (almost all blue/purple) have automatic motor voter.

GOP cries "federal over-reach; power grab" rather than "yeah, makes sense."

[lagerhead]

Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.

That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.

What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.

Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?

The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.




A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.

Remember, of course, that voting fraudulently is against the law, a felony. In Colorado, the Class 5 felony penalty is $5,000 or 18 months in jail, or both.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... esFAQ.html

So the only way to have non-citizens voting illegally be widespread enough to move the needle is to persuade a very large number of non-citizens to risk being caught doing so. And doing so risks deportation as well.

Which is why such is so very rare.

Voting twice or in different jurisdictions, more than one of which would be illegal, is a mite easier, but also very risky for the offender. And not prevented by a picture ID.

Okay but someone voting illegally is not going to care about the penalty.
Not talking about moving the needle you need to be a citizen to vote how do those docs prove that?
I didn’t mention picture ids the additional documentation needed for the other ids does that. Why allow those forms of ID I quoted as a singular point of affirmation of voting rights?

[lagerhead]

How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented?

Fair question.

The point of voter ID is to prove that the person standing at the table in the polling place is the same person listed on the voter registration rolls. It is to prevent me from pretending to be you and stealing your vote.

Proof of citizenship needs to be proven at the time the person registers to vote. That's a different/separate process.

The best time to handle that is at the DMV. Automatic motor voter registration is a really good idea. Manchin's proposal makes motor voter mandatory in all 50 states (while allowing individuals to opt out).

GOP cries "federal over-reach; power grab" rather than "yeah, makes sense."

How do you differentiate between an undocumented DL vs real DL, that’s rife for abuse and I believe some immigration rights groups don’t favor it because undocumented could get the wrong DL and be deported/prosecuted. Falsification of government docs whether by mistake or not.

At polling place I don’t show ID but have been questioned on my signature. Can see both arguments for both when pulling the lever.

[ggait]

Let's be practical.

If you are here undocumented, you will always stay away from all things governmental to the maximum extent possible in order to be able to continue to hide and stay here illegally. You basically soil yourself any time you get pulled over for a burned out tail light.

So you'd have to really really really hate the opposing candidate to try to pull off fraudulent in person voting by illegals at a large enough scale to impact any election. You basically have to risk deportation in order to cast one vote against the other candidate.

But the best answer is that citizenship (which is different than identity) is handled at time of registration. Not time of voting.

[ggait]

How do you differentiate between an undocumented DL vs real DL, that’s rife for abuse and I believe some immigration rights groups don’t favor it because undocumented could get the wrong DL and be deported/prosecuted. Falsification of government docs whether by mistake or not.

As noted, citizenship gets vetted at the time of registration. That's when your name gets put on the voting rolls.

At the polls, the only question is whether the guy presenting as John Smith is actually the John Smith who lives at 123 Main Street. So showing up with a recent utility bill or bank statement that says John Smith, 123 Main Street is a pretty good way to do the job.

If someone wants to steal or fake utility bills or bank statements at the volume needed to vote in person (i.e. while being videotaped) to be election outcome determinative, go for it. Can't think of any crime that is easier to catch.

[lagerhead]

Let's be practical.

If you are here undocumented, you will always stay away from all things governmental to the maximum extent possible in order to be able to continue to hide and stay here illegally. You basically soil yourself any time you get pulled over for a burned out tail light.

So you'd have to really really really hate the opposing candidate to try to pull off fraudulent in person voting by illegals at a large enough scale to impact any election. You basically have to risk deportation in order to cast one vote against the other candidate.

But the best answer is that citizenship (which is different than identity) is handled at time of registration. Not time of voting.

Some states are allowing the undocumented DL’s, they have fed TIN’s, didn’t Cali wind up with many on the rolls after the motor voter program started? Do you think they were not targeted in party outreach and may have thought they had the right to vote because they have a DL and TIN? I’m not talking about time of voting.

And to be clear how does a utility bill give you the right to register without other backup docs?