Who Wins The National Title?

[GSP]

Not many teams in history have a Dox Aitken level talent stored away as a secondary role player

I have no dog in this hunt. The easy way to compare the two teams is this:

If Virginia went 100% at the face off, Maryland can still win.

If Maryland went 100% at the face off, Maryland would win 20-5.

So, tell me which team impresses more.

In your pretend 20-5 world, of course 1 team impresses more. But because you say it does not make it fact or remotely possible. UVA is at least just as talented as MD across the board (more talented going by recruiting rankings), with a huge advantage at faceoff.

These comments by "the Experts" remind me so much of the "Yale is going to beat UVA by 10" and "the real National Championship game will be between Penn State and Yale on Saturday" comments from 2019.

[jrn19]

Not many teams in history have a Dox Aitken level talent stored away as a secondary role player

He’s a secondary role player because he isn’t as good as he was in 2019. If he was still the guy to score 40 goals from the midfield he wouldn’t be a secondary role player

[wgdsr]

Not many teams in history have a Dox Aitken level talent stored away as a secondary role player

He’s a secondary role player because he isn’t as good as he was in 2019. If he was still the guy to score 40 goals from the midfield he wouldn’t be a secondary role player

agree. dox has been weird to watch this year. while took awhile to get his footing, in the middle he got it going and was ready to pull the trigger.

then... 2 things -- his misses were by inches. pipes, just off cage. had some of those fallen, he might be pushing the issue at every turn. but instead back to probing. and makes an electric play here and there. he's a wildcard for monday.

[youthathletics]

Pretty sure the greatest Men’s lacrosse team was the Maryland 1973 squad that went 10-0 and beat Hopkins in the championship in three overtime’s. All ten starters plus one sub were named All Americans. At least the were probably the best in that era.

Next.....I'd go with the 2004 Navy team. What a battle of goalies in that game, not to mention Matt Russell having to come out and have his separated shoulder put back in place, with a broken clavicle. https://twitter.com/mmrussell16/status/ ... 87430?s=20

[youthathletics]

Has UMD faced a ride like UVA's?

They have overcome a face-off deficit before.

That was also with a completely different set of rules at the Face-off.

[jrn19]

Not many teams in history have a Dox Aitken level talent stored away as a secondary role player

He’s a secondary role player because he isn’t as good as he was in 2019. If he was still the guy to score 40 goals from the midfield he wouldn’t be a secondary role player

agree. dox has been weird to watch this year. while took awhile to get his footing, in the middle he got it going and was ready to pull the trigger.

then... 2 things -- his misses were by inches. pipes, just off cage. had some of those fallen, he might be pushing the issue at every turn. but instead back to probing. and makes an electric play here and there. he's a wildcard for monday.

He’s still capable of having big games, he’s had them, but the consistency isn’t there. Before he’d have 5 straight big games, now the big games come 5 weeks apart.

He feels due for a big game though which worries me as a Maryland fan. But he hasn’t been the Dox of 2017-19

[wgdsr]

Not many teams in history have a Dox Aitken level talent stored away as a secondary role player

He’s a secondary role player because he isn’t as good as he was in 2019. If he was still the guy to score 40 goals from the midfield he wouldn’t be a secondary role player

agree. dox has been weird to watch this year. while took awhile to get his footing, in the middle he got it going and was ready to pull the trigger.

then... 2 things -- his misses were by inches. pipes, just off cage. had some of those fallen, he might be pushing the issue at every turn. but instead back to probing. and makes an electric play here and there. he's a wildcard for monday.

He’s still capable of having big games, he’s had them, but the consistency isn’t there. Before he’d have 5 straight big games, now the big games come 5 weeks apart.

He feels due for a big game though which worries me as a Maryland fan. But he hasn’t been the Dox of 2017-19

hoos only need one!

what i'll be watching is umd looking to get mismatches on bernhardt with picks. bernhardt pick and slip, or bernhardt creating one by using one. duke's strategy on switching or even trying to fight thru over the top seemed to put their d in a blender. and their goalie double seemed to be a road to goals.

uva typically tries to give space behind and come under the pick and stay. shorty with a bs pop to the dodger. bernhardt might not wait for the dman to get his angle and blow thru at warp speed.

[jrn19]

Not many teams in history have a Dox Aitken level talent stored away as a secondary role player

He’s a secondary role player because he isn’t as good as he was in 2019. If he was still the guy to score 40 goals from the midfield he wouldn’t be a secondary role player

agree. dox has been weird to watch this year. while took awhile to get his footing, in the middle he got it going and was ready to pull the trigger.

then... 2 things -- his misses were by inches. pipes, just off cage. had some of those fallen, he might be pushing the issue at every turn. but instead back to probing. and makes an electric play here and there. he's a wildcard for monday.

He’s still capable of having big games, he’s had them, but the consistency isn’t there. Before he’d have 5 straight big games, now the big games come 5 weeks apart.

He feels due for a big game though which worries me as a Maryland fan. But he hasn’t been the Dox of 2017-19

hoos only need one!

what i'll be watching is umd looking to get mismatches on bernhardt with picks. bernhardt pick and slip, or bernhardt creating one by using one. duke's strategy on switching or even trying to fight thru over the top seemed to put their d in a blender. and their goalie double seemed to be a road to goals.

uva typically tries to give space behind and come under the pick and stay. shorty with a bs pop to the dodger. bernhardt might not wait for the dman to get his angle and blow thru at warp speed.

Yeah, Duke defended it really poorly. Maryland’s set up big littles and other pick situations for Bernhardt much more this year and it’s paid big dividends. Against Duke was the best it looked and that’s why even though he didn’t get the dodges he got vs ND he still was dominant

[Essexfenwick]

Notre Dames defenseman of the year was defenseless

[laxfan1313]

Pretty sure the greatest Men’s lacrosse team was the Maryland 1973 squad that went 10-0 and beat Hopkins in the championship in three overtime’s. All ten starters plus one sub were named All Americans. At least the were probably the best in that era.

Next.....I'd go with the 2004 Navy team. What a battle of goalies in that game, not to mention Matt Russell having to come out and have his separated shoulder put back in place, with a broken clavicle. https://twitter.com/mmrussell16/status/ ... 87430?s=20

The 1973 Maryland team was a great team, but only 4 of its members are National Lacrosse Hall of Fame player inductees: Doug Radebaugh, Doug Schreiber, Mike Thearle & Frank Urso. Cornell's 1976 team boasts 6 player inductees: Mike French, Eamon McEneaney, Dan Mackesey, Chris Kane, Bob Henrickson & Bill Marino. Cornell's 1976 team was undefeated (16-0); every starter named an All America including 4 on the 1st Team, won the first 16 games of the 42 game winning streak that is still the record, including 5 victories over Johns Hopkins, pitched the only shutout in NCAA tournament history (14-0 against W&L), as stated above, 6 members of the team are inducted into the National Lacrosse Hall of Fame, plus two coaches (Moran & Waldvogel), and it was named a Team Of Distinction by US Lacrosse.

[wgdsr]

Notre Dames defenseman of the year was defenseless

bernhardt has scored tons of goals in practice.

[wgdsr]

Pretty sure the greatest Men’s lacrosse team was the Maryland 1973 squad that went 10-0 and beat Hopkins in the championship in three overtime’s. All ten starters plus one sub were named All Americans. At least the were probably the best in that era.

Next.....I'd go with the 2004 Navy team. What a battle of goalies in that game, not to mention Matt Russell having to come out and have his separated shoulder put back in place, with a broken clavicle. https://twitter.com/mmrussell16/status/ ... 87430?s=20

The 1973 Maryland team was a great team, but only 4 of its members are National Lacrosse Hall of Fame player inductees: Doug Radebaugh, Doug Schreiber, Mike Thearle & Frank Urso. Cornell's 1976 team boasts 6 player inductees: Mike French, Eamon McEneaney, Dan Mackesey, Chris Kane, Bob Henrickson & Bill Marino. Cornell's 1976 team was undefeated (16-0); every starter named an All America including 4 on the 1st Team, won the first 16 games of the 42 game winning streak that is still the record, including 5 victories over Johns Hopkins, pitched the only shutout in NCAA tournament history (14-0 against W&L), as stated above, 6 members of the team are inducted into the National Lacrosse Hall of Fame, plus two coaches (Moran & Waldvogel), and it was named a Team Of Distinction by US Lacrosse.

and all-american and hof often are as political as they come. next to world team noms. that doesn't win you best team ever. it's often in the eye of the beholder.
you have yours, and you should be happy with that. great memories, i'm sure.

[laxfan1313]

Pretty sure the greatest Men’s lacrosse team was the Maryland 1973 squad that went 10-0 and beat Hopkins in the championship in three overtime’s. All ten starters plus one sub were named All Americans. At least the were probably the best in that era.

Next.....I'd go with the 2004 Navy team. What a battle of goalies in that game, not to mention Matt Russell having to come out and have his separated shoulder put back in place, with a broken clavicle. https://twitter.com/mmrussell16/status/ ... 87430?s=20

The 1973 Maryland team was a great team, but only 4 of its members are National Lacrosse Hall of Fame player inductees: Doug Radebaugh, Doug Schreiber, Mike Thearle & Frank Urso. Cornell's 1976 team boasts 6 player inductees: Mike French, Eamon McEneaney, Dan Mackesey, Chris Kane, Bob Henrickson & Bill Marino. Cornell's 1976 team was undefeated (16-0); every starter named an All America including 4 on the 1st Team, won the first 16 games of the 42 game winning streak that is still the record, including 5 victories over Johns Hopkins, pitched the only shutout in NCAA tournament history (14-0 against W&L), as stated above, 6 members of the team are inducted into the National Lacrosse Hall of Fame, plus two coaches (Moran & Waldvogel), and it was named a Team Of Distinction by US Lacrosse.

and all-american and hof often are as political as they come. next to world team noms. that doesn't win you best team ever. it's often in the eye of the beholder.
you have yours, and you should be happy with that. great memories, i'm sure.

Yes, it sure is political, and historically with provable bias against Cornell. Jon Levine should have been First Team AA in 1976 but the powers that be wouldn't make one team's entire attack 1st team so Levine was chosen 2nd team. Craig Jaeger was 1st Team AA 5 times, once in high school, twice at Nassau CC where he was twice MVP of their Championship game and twice at Cornell where he took face offs & played both ways. He is inducted into the Junior College HOF but the door has been closed in the National Hall. Same for Bob Shaw, 1st, 2nd & 3rd team AA, 3 times 1st Team All Ivy, MVP of Cornell's 1971 NC team, took faceoffs and played both ways. Played professionally, for the US team and was instrumental in growing lacrosse in California - can't get in. Mark Webster, twice 1st team AA, star of Cornell's undefeated 1970 team that was denied NC status by the anti Cornell bias when Virginia, Navy & JHU were named NC. We had to lobby hard to gain induction of Dan Mackesey who was only undefeated as a goalie (29-0) and still holds the only shutout in NCAA playoff history - also twice recipient of the Ensign Kelly award. We had to lobby hard for induction of Paul Schimoler who still holds the record for saves in an NCAA tourney (85). He should have gotten in long before he tragically died from cancer. The Cornell team was named a Team of Distinction in 2020, the third to hold that distinction. Just stating the facts.

[wgdsr]

that's fine. makes them your and others' best team. not everyone's. so you understand all-american and hof subsequently is political. great! there are and were great players everywhere.

enjoy memories, not facts!

[DMac]

youth, how can you say the '04 Navy team when they didn't win the NC (one of the best NC games ever and I love that Navy team)? You've got to win it all to be the best ever, no?
All of these teams are from a different era when there simply were not as many good players and the competition wasn't what it is now. All great teams but best ever is highly debatable (and will never be settled).

[youthathletics]

youth, how can you say the '04 Navy team when they didn't win the NC (one of the best NC games ever and I love that Navy team)? You've got to win it all to be the best ever, no?
All of these teams are from a different era when there simply were not as many good players and the competition wasn't what it is now. All great teams but best ever is highly debatable (and will never be settled).

DMac, one goal should not define the 'better' team, IMHO. Yes, it certainly defines the winner....I believe there is a difference; any given day. My rationale....the mere fact that a Service Academy, handcuffed with recruiting and future military commitments, will always have to play better 'team' lacrosse, than a team that can dang near just drive the bus with the ability to recruit from the US & Canada & Native American talent pools.

BTW - I was at that '04 game, one of my most memorable moments in the sport.

[MDlaxfan76]

Pretty sure the greatest Men’s lacrosse team was the Maryland 1973 squad that went 10-0 and beat Hopkins in the championship in three overtime’s. All ten starters plus one sub were named All Americans. At least the were probably the best in that era.

Next.....I'd go with the 2004 Navy team. What a battle of goalies in that game, not to mention Matt Russell having to come out and have his separated shoulder put back in place, with a broken clavicle. https://twitter.com/mmrussell16/status/ ... 87430?s=20

The 1973 Maryland team was a great team, but only 4 of its members are National Lacrosse Hall of Fame player inductees: Doug Radebaugh, Doug Schreiber, Mike Thearle & Frank Urso. Cornell's 1976 team boasts 6 player inductees: Mike French, Eamon McEneaney, Dan Mackesey, Chris Kane, Bob Henrickson & Bill Marino. Cornell's 1976 team was undefeated (16-0); every starter named an All America including 4 on the 1st Team, won the first 16 games of the 42 game winning streak that is still the record, including 5 victories over Johns Hopkins, pitched the only shutout in NCAA tournament history (14-0 against W&L), as stated above, 6 members of the team are inducted into the National Lacrosse Hall of Fame, plus two coaches (Moran & Waldvogel), and it was named a Team Of Distinction by US Lacrosse.

I agree with this assessment, in the NCAA era...
Yes, just an opinion, quite unprovable, but based on the 'facts' available.

Takes absolutely nothing away from '73 Maryland team.
Don't see Navy 04 as close, though again, taking nothing away from them.

Some even older old timers could make an argument about earlier era teams.

[DMac]

youth, how can you say the '04 Navy team when they didn't win the NC (one of the best NC games ever and I love that Navy team)? You've got to win it all to be the best ever, no?
All of these teams are from a different era when there simply were not as many good players and the competition wasn't what it is now. All great teams but best ever is highly debatable (and will never be settled).

DMac, one goal should not define the 'better' team, IMHO. Yes, it certainly defines the winner....I believe there is a difference; any given day. My rationale....the mere fact that a Service Academy, handcuffed with recruiting and future military commitments, will always have to play better 'team' lacrosse, than a team that can dang near just drive the bus with the ability to recruit from the US & Canada & Native American talent pools.

BTW - I was at that '04 game, one of my most memorable moments in the sport.

Got no real disagreement there, youth, but I was seeing the discussion as being more about the best team ever (which we all know will never be settled) and if you're going to be the best team ever you just have to win it all. You picked a good one to go to that was one helluva a good game and even as a Cuse fan I found myself pulling for that Navy team as the game went on. What a gutsy and tremendous performance! Can't say I was upset about Cuse winning it but my heart bled for those Navy boys at the same time. Crazy good and hard fought game.

[youthathletics]

youth, how can you say the '04 Navy team when they didn't win the NC (one of the best NC games ever and I love that Navy team)? You've got to win it all to be the best ever, no?
All of these teams are from a different era when there simply were not as many good players and the competition wasn't what it is now. All great teams but best ever is highly debatable (and will never be settled).

DMac, one goal should not define the 'better' team, IMHO. Yes, it certainly defines the winner....I believe there is a difference; any given day. My rationale....the mere fact that a Service Academy, handcuffed with recruiting and future military commitments, will always have to play better 'team' lacrosse, than a team that can dang near just drive the bus with the ability to recruit from the US & Canada & Native American talent pools.

BTW - I was at that '04 game, one of my most memorable moments in the sport.

Got no real disagreement there, youth, but I was seeing the discussion as being more about the best team ever (which we all know will never be settled) and if you're going to be the best team ever you just have to win it all. You picked a good one to go to that was one helluva a good game and even as a Cuse fan I found myself pulling for that Navy team as the game went on. What a gutsy and tremendous performance! Can't say I was upset about Cuse winning it but my heart bled for those Navy boys at the same time. Crazy good and hard fought game.

Enjoy the day DMac....and Thank you, for your Service!

[GSP]

youth, how can you say the '04 Navy team when they didn't win the NC (one of the best NC games ever and I love that Navy team)? You've got to win it all to be the best ever, no?
All of these teams are from a different era when there simply were not as many good players and the competition wasn't what it is now. All great teams but best ever is highly debatable (and will never be settled).

DMac, one goal should not define the 'better' team, IMHO. Yes, it certainly defines the winner....I believe there is a difference; any given day. My rationale....the mere fact that a Service Academy, handcuffed with recruiting and future military commitments, will always have to play better 'team' lacrosse, than a team that can dang near just drive the bus with the ability to recruit from the US & Canada & Native American talent pools.

BTW - I was at that '04 game, one of my most memorable moments in the sport.

The greatest lacrosse team of all time is unquestionable the 2006 Virginia team. Undefeated and no team came close to beating them. Beat 10 of the top 15 teams. Average margin of victory was 6.8 goals! Scored 20 goals in 5 games.

Got no real disagreement there, youth, but I was seeing the discussion as being more about the best team ever (which we all know will never be settled) and if you're going to be the best team ever you just have to win it all. You picked a good one to go to that was one helluva a good game and even as a Cuse fan I found myself pulling for that Navy team as the game went on. What a gutsy and tremendous performance! Can't say I was upset about Cuse winning it but my heart bled for those Navy boys at the same time. Crazy good and hard fought game.

Enjoy the day DMac....and Thank you, for your Service!