Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Matnum PI]

If you're really asking me to address it, though, I'd say that I don't 'hate socialism'... I'm still distinguishing between that "label" and the delusional state so many of that party are now in.

The idea that the US is capitalist while Israel is socialist is a misnomer. That Sweden is socialist is a misnomer. The spectrum between capitalism and socialism is a spectrum, not binary. Much the same for left and right, liberal and conservative. The attacks hurled at you of 'You're not a conservative!" seem to ignore this. As do the attacks about supporting Israel which is a socialist country etc. Little in life is binary. When you look deeper, if you look deeper, life is substantially more nuanced.

[old salt]

Logically, what is the more likely impetus to the reported increase in antisemitic attacks in the US ?

(a) Marjorie Taylor Greene's remarks comparing Pelosi's mask mandate to the Holocaust.

(b) Israel's bombing of Gaza.

If you get your news from MSNBC, it's due solely to (a) & unrelated to (b)

Agreed, he obviously doesn't watch MSNBC...

But your logic is that it must solely be because of what Israel is doing in Gaza...yup, blame the Jews.

when someone who represents a large following on social media, someone actually elected to a position of influence, says something bigoted and hateful, that does contribute to antisemitic violence as well. Of course it does.

As I said above, "the rhetoric of politicians emboldens the haters."
Absolutely no contribution from right wing politicians whipping up hate.

I then provided you the MSNBC clip to which I was referring.

Not soley -- I asked which is the more likely impetus.

My logic is that there is a great deal of anti-Israel/pro-Palestine sentiment in the US progressive left, in media & in celebrities.

When Israelis kill Palestinians, even in retaliation to attacks on Israel, it incites violence against Jews in the US.
To not acknowledge that is to ignore the obvious. Is that violence coming from the nonspecific right wing boogeymen you constantly refer to ?
The thugs attacking Jewish restaurant patrons in LA weren't wearing MAGA hats or flying Confederate flags on their pickups.
Did you notice their headwear & flag ?

What right wing politicians are whipping up hate that leads to attacks on Jews ? Specifics plz.
Compare & contrast to lefty politicians like Tlaib, Omar & AOC.

https://indianexpress.com/article/enter ... l-7330159/
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 52336.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congre ... sm-n978521
https://www.businessinsider.com/rashida ... bds-2019-8
https://www.foxnews.com/media/ocasio-co ... mes-jewish
https://www.newsweek.com/how-many-jews- ... on-1593673

[PizzaSnake]

Logically, what is the more likely impetus to the reported increase in antisemitic attacks in the US ?

(a) Marjorie Taylor Greene's remarks comparing Pelosi's mask mandate to the Holocaust.

(b) Israel's bombing of Gaza.

If you get your news from MSNBC, it's due solely to (a) & unrelated to (b)

Agreed, he obviously doesn't watch MSNBC...

But your logic is that it must solely be because of what Israel is doing in Gaza...yup, blame the Jews.

when someone who represents a large following on social media, someone actually elected to a position of influence, says something bigoted and hateful, that does contribute to antisemitic violence as well. Of course it does.

As I said above, "the rhetoric of politicians emboldens the haters."
Absolutely no contribution from right wing politicians whipping up hate.

I then provided you the MSNBC clip to which I was referring.

Not soley -- I asked which is the more likely impetus.

My logic is that there is a great deal of anti-Israel/pro-Palestine sentiment in the US progressive left, in media & in celebrities.

When Israelis kill Palestinians, even in retaliation to attacks on Israel, it incites violence against Jews in the US.
To not acknowledge that is to ignore the obvious. Is that violence coming from the nonspecific right wing boogeymen you constantly refer to ?
The thugs attacking Jewish restaurant patrons in LA weren't wearing MAGA hats or flying Confederate flags on their pickups.
Did you notice their headwear & flag ?

What right wing politicians are whipping up hate that leads to attacks on Jews ? Specifics plz.
Compare & contrast to lefty politicians like Tlaib, Omar & AOC.

https://indianexpress.com/article/enter ... l-7330159/
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 52336.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congre ... sm-n978521
https://www.businessinsider.com/rashida ... bds-2019-8
https://www.foxnews.com/media/ocasio-co ... mes-jewish
https://www.newsweek.com/how-many-jews- ... on-1593673

"great deal of anti-Israel/pro-Palestine sentiment"

Are those things equivalent in juxtaposition?

As Matnum points out above, little in life is simple diametric opposition. It is quite likely the overwhelming majority of sentiment is neutral in terms of politics, but concerned with the welfare of the citizens of the the two entities. They are paying the price for this seemingly intractable problem.

Using simplistic labels and ignoring the nuance is "easy" and intellectually dishonest.

[jhu72]

+1

Traditionally antisemitism is a disease that lives on the right. In the US you have seen a great deal of it in the Trump years. If you don't think these people are MAGA, you aren't paying attention. Trump set them loose, not by any specific antisemitic action, but just by calling to other positions he shares with them, his call to "white Christian grievance".

The recent Arab-Israel conflict brought out significant criticism of Israel's behavior both current and historical. Most of this was just that, valid straight forward criticism of the state and its leaders, current and former. Including by some liberal Jews on both sides of the pond. There was also some antisemitism that originated on the left (some overstated criticism, some real). It seems likely that this antisemitism (and perceived antisemitism) resonated with the rights' antisemitism effectively amplifying the antisemitic reaction in the US.

[Brooklyn]

I have no issue with your challenging those you describe.

However, I was puzzled as to whether you were applying that "label", or that description above, to me.

Doesn't fit, right?

So, it wouldn't be for me to address your ripping of "right wingers" and their "hypocrisy"...that's on them.

If you're really asking me to address it, though, I'd say that I don't 'hate socialism' (I do abhor authoritarianism in various forms), nor do I critique much less hate Biden for his "socialism" (I think he's entirely within the American version of progressive social compact...doesn't mean I agree with every policy, though), I'm pro-Choice, though would prefer fewer abortions (so no hypocrisy on that one), and I don't think Israel is a "socialist" country either (at least the way far right types conflate authoritarian socialism with "socialism"), though I agree that it has strong roots in socialism, and experimented in various ways with degrees of communism, with kibbutz etc. (I don't find that abhorrent, by and large those experiments were the closest to actually trying it out in the real world...but most Israelis are quite definitely not "communist" at this point, strong capitalistic streak.) That said, my support of Israel has nothing to do with how capitalist or socialist a system they choose for themselves.

But hey, yes, I'm still a Republican.
I'm still distinguishing between that "label" and the delusional state so many of that party are now in.

Nothing inherently wrong with being left leaning or right leaning. Don't know if either label is proper so I won't attempt to impose any such label on you. The fact that you acknowledge the delusionalism of some of your party's membership tends to suggest you are more governed by principle and I give you a thumb's up for that.

The problem with so many Republicans on this forum (as on other forums as well) is the hypocrisy and double standards so many have.

Why Republicans (whether in Congress or anywhere else) refuse to finance domestic programs on the grounds they are "socialist" when they happily finance Israel's openly admitted socialist programs is hypocrisy of the worse kind. It is just so stupid to have poor Americans die because they cannot afford health care while these political idiots finance Israel's health care! Same with abortion - these right wing delusionals call it genocide that should be criminally punishable but they applaud it when it takes place in Israel and is financed by American dollars. But God help anyone who dares to challenge them on this.


As for Biden, the record is clear that he is largely in compliance with FDR ideals. For some right wing radicals to call him "socialist" is absurd beyond all manner of reason.



Thanks for your reply. Not let's have the other forum Republicans answer my queries, if they dare.




Erratum: substitute the word "now" for 'not' in that last sentence

[Brooklyn]

salty,


Compare & contrast to lefty politicians like Tlaib, Omar & AOC.

Rashida Tlaib says Palestinians created 'safe haven' for Jews after Holocaust. She did not applaud that tragedy like some right wing delusionals claimed.* Previously, I have mentioned that Ilhan Omar presides over Minnesota's largest Jewish district where she got over 70% of the Jewish vote. Her best pal being Mayor Frey who is Jewish. As for AOC, again, I have previously mentioned that she has Jewish ancestry.




*It is a matter of historical fact that Muslims protected Sefardic Jews from the holocaust created by the Inquisition. Further, Muslim Albania was the only European country to protect its Jews from the Nazis.

[jhu72]

salty,


Compare & contrast to lefty politicians like Tlaib, Omar & AOC.

Rashida Tlaib says Palestinians created 'safe haven' for Jews after Holocaust. She did not applaud that tragedy like some right wing delusionals claimed.* Previously, I have mentioned that Ilhan Omar presides over Minnesota's largest Jewish district where she got over 70% of the Jewish vote. Her best pal being Mayor Frey who is Jewish. As for AOC, again, I have previously mentioned that she has Jewish ancestry.




*It is a matter of historical fact that Muslims protected Sefardic Jews from the holocaust created by the Inquisition. Further, Muslim Albania was the only European country to protect its Jews from the Nazis.

... I don't think Albania was the "only"... Bulgaria is claimed to have saved 55K, it is claimed not a single Bulgarian Jew was handed over to the Nazis. Denmark saved about 8000 by proactively exporting them to Sweden, there were loses, and Albania protected theirs and in fact grew the Jewish population during the war years from about 500 to 2000, which is pretty amazing.

[Brooklyn]

I believe Bulgaria was not so protective of Moldavian Jews, only of its own Jews. Said to have been needed for railroad construction or something like that.

Denmark was selective in its protection as well because it refused to protect Jewish socialists and other dissidents. At least that's what I've read in the past.

In Albania, the Jewish population actually increased during the war.

Again, it's what I've read in the past. Don't know European history as well as I do American history so my apologies in there is any error in my posts.

[jhu72]

I believe Bulgaria was not so protective of Moldavian Jews, only of its own Jews. Said to have been needed for railroad construction or something like that.

Denmark was selective in its protection as well because it refused to protect Jewish socialists and other dissidents. At least that's what I've read in the past.

In Albania, the Jewish population actually increased during the war.

Again, it's what I've read in the past. Don't know European history as well as I do American history so my apologies in there is any error in my posts.

My knowledge just came from Quora, for what it is worth.

[PizzaSnake]

I recommend we all take a look at this. A refresher for some, but may be new to others. It would help to undergird our positions with a common use of terms.

'Debates in epistemology are generally clustered around four core areas:[2][3][4]

The philosophical analysis of the nature of knowledge and the conditions required for a belief to constitute knowledge, such as truth and justification
Potential sources of knowledge and justified belief, such as perception, reason, memory, and testimony
The structure of a body of knowledge or justified belief, including whether all justified beliefs must be derived from justified foundational beliefs or whether justification requires only a coherent set of beliefs
Philosophical skepticism, which questions the possibility of knowledge, and related problems, such as whether skepticism poses a threat to our ordinary knowledge claims and whether it is possible to refute skeptical arguments"

"In these debates and others, epistemology aims to answer questions such as "What do we know?", "What does it mean to say that we know something?", "What makes justified beliefs justified?", and "How do we know that we know?".[1][2][5][6][7]'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

[Gretchen]

[MDlaxfan76]

I have no issue with your challenging those you describe.

However, I was puzzled as to whether you were applying that "label", or that description above, to me.

Doesn't fit, right?

So, it wouldn't be for me to address your ripping of "right wingers" and their "hypocrisy"...that's on them.

If you're really asking me to address it, though, I'd say that I don't 'hate socialism' (I do abhor authoritarianism in various forms), nor do I critique much less hate Biden for his "socialism" (I think he's entirely within the American version of progressive social compact...doesn't mean I agree with every policy, though), I'm pro-Choice, though would prefer fewer abortions (so no hypocrisy on that one), and I don't think Israel is a "socialist" country either (at least the way far right types conflate authoritarian socialism with "socialism"), though I agree that it has strong roots in socialism, and experimented in various ways with degrees of communism, with kibbutz etc. (I don't find that abhorrent, by and large those experiments were the closest to actually trying it out in the real world...but most Israelis are quite definitely not "communist" at this point, strong capitalistic streak.) That said, my support of Israel has nothing to do with how capitalist or socialist a system they choose for themselves.

But hey, yes, I'm still a Republican.
I'm still distinguishing between that "label" and the delusional state so many of that party are now in.

Nothing inherently wrong with being left leaning or right leaning. Don't know if either label is proper so I won't attempt to impose any such label on you. The fact that you acknowledge the delusionalism of some of your party's membership tends to suggest you are more governed by principle and I give you a thumb's up for that.

The problem with so many Republicans on this forum (as on other forums as well) is the hypocrisy and double standards so many have.

Why Republicans (whether in Congress or anywhere else) refuse to finance domestic programs on the grounds they are "socialist" when they happily finance Israel's openly admitted socialist programs is hypocrisy of the worse kind. It is just so stupid to have poor Americans die because they cannot afford health care while these political idiots finance Israel's health care! Same with abortion - these right wing delusionals call it genocide that should be criminally punishable but they applaud it when it takes place in Israel and is financed by American dollars. But God help anyone who dares to challenge them on this.


As for Biden, the record is clear that he is largely in compliance with FDR ideals. For some right wing radicals to call him "socialist" is absurd beyond all manner of reason.



Thanks for your reply. Not let's have the other forum Republicans answer my queries, if they dare.

Brooklyn,

I post a lot, and that's an understatement...so, hopefully you have more than one or two posts by which to assess whether that label remotely fits me.

We've had this discussion before. While a large majority of the GOP has gone off its rocker IMO, not all Republicans have done so. Nor are all Republicans "right-wingers"; "leaning" is not equivalent to "right-winger"...and "leaning" (right) conservative on some issues doesn't mean that one can't have other views that "lean" (left) more progressive.

It would be fair to say, however, that the 'off their rocker' folks want the rest of us out of the party. Bottomline, gotta support Trump no matter what...and anyone who doesn't needs to be drummed out under whatever pretense or attack necessary. But it started pre-Trump with the whole RINO attack on moderate Republicans. Gotta be pure right-wing bomb thrower to be acceptable. Gotta hate the libs, no compromises. Libs like government, hate government, distrust government. It's all about the anger. Off their rocker.

[MDlaxfan76]

Logically, what is the more likely impetus to the reported increase in antisemitic attacks in the US ?

(a) Marjorie Taylor Greene's remarks comparing Pelosi's mask mandate to the Holocaust.

(b) Israel's bombing of Gaza.

If you get your news from MSNBC, it's due solely to (a) & unrelated to (b)

Agreed, he obviously doesn't watch MSNBC...

But your logic is that it must solely be because of what Israel is doing in Gaza...yup, blame the Jews.

when someone who represents a large following on social media, someone actually elected to a position of influence, says something bigoted and hateful, that does contribute to antisemitic violence as well. Of course it does.

As I said above, "the rhetoric of politicians emboldens the haters."
Absolutely no contribution from right wing politicians whipping up hate.

I then provided you the MSNBC clip to which I was referring.

Not soley -- I asked which is the more likely impetus.

My logic is that there is a great deal of anti-Israel/pro-Palestine sentiment in the US progressive left, in media & in celebrities.

When Israelis kill Palestinians, even in retaliation to attacks on Israel, it incites violence against Jews in the US.
To not acknowledge that is to ignore the obvious. Is that violence coming from the nonspecific right wing boogeymen you constantly refer to ?
The thugs attacking Jewish restaurant patrons in LA weren't wearing MAGA hats or flying Confederate flags on their pickups.
Did you notice their headwear & flag ?

What right wing politicians are whipping up hate that leads to attacks on Jews ? Specifics plz.
Compare & contrast to lefty politicians like Tlaib, Omar & AOC.

https://indianexpress.com/article/enter ... l-7330159/
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 52336.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congre ... sm-n978521
https://www.businessinsider.com/rashida ... bds-2019-8
https://www.foxnews.com/media/ocasio-co ... mes-jewish
https://www.newsweek.com/how-many-jews- ... on-1593673

I understood your initial question, and would agree (as would most commentators on MSNBC and CNN for that matter) that the Israeli actions are the largest precipitating factor for the uptick in anti-semitic violence...they provide an excuse for hate attacks.

But then you claimed that "If you get your news from MSNBC"..."solely" Greene...nope, not remotely close to accurate, nor did this specific discussion say "solely" either. Not even close...but they did say that right wing political rhetoric matters.

Clearly that bothers you.

You are certainly correct that there is pro-palentinian, anti-semitic sentiment (and violence) from a part of the population more aligned with the left than the right, but this is very small in the US relative to the nativist "Christian" sort of anti-semitism and violence therefrom. It dwarfs the other.

Both are anti-semitic and dangerous.
So, too is anti-muslim bigotry in its various forms.
Yup, some jews are anti-muslim bigots...but far larger and more violent are the white, nativist, "Christian" sorts...

[jhu72]

Interesting article on the educational gaslighting of Jewish students in America and Israel.

[PizzaSnake]

Interesting article on the educational gaslighting of Jewish students in America and Israel.

"I contrast that with the way that we do US education. When I was growing up, my US history education was terrible because it was, “America is always perfect, and here’s some great men.” Right? That was the story. Then I remember getting to junior year of high school and having this phenomenal AP US history teacher who was the first person to inform us that the US is not always right and every history book has a bias and we should read for it.

I see how my kids are learning US history and — from second grade, even — they know about the genocide of Native Americans and they know about racism. They talk about police violence in school. Thank God. And it doesn’t make them hate America."

Someone be sure to tell the anti-1619 crowd about this.

[MDlaxfan76]

Interesting article on the educational gaslighting of Jewish students in America and Israel.

"I contrast that with the way that we do US education. When I was growing up, my US history education was terrible because it was, “America is always perfect, and here’s some great men.” Right? That was the story. Then I remember getting to junior year of high school and having this phenomenal AP US history teacher who was the first person to inform us that the US is not always right and every history book has a bias and we should read for it.

I see how my kids are learning US history and — from second grade, even — they know about the genocide of Native Americans and they know about racism. They talk about police violence in school. Thank God. And it doesn’t make them hate America."

Someone be sure to tell the anti-1619 crowd about this.

Very interesting article. Thanks 72.

[Brooklyn]

Interesting article on the educational gaslighting of Jewish students in America and Israel.

Jewish students (like all else) should be taught how Moriscos (Muslims) in Spain saved the lives of tens of thousands of Marranos (the term used for Judios or Jews) from Christian created genocide over the centuries. That because of their sacrifices descendants of Judios all over Latin America and other parts of the world are alive today.

Of course, those who know their history understand why so many Jews today sympathize with Palestinians. After all, Muslims saved their lives (or, more correctly, the lives of their ancestors) and it is now the time for the favor to be returned.

[jhu72]

Interesting article from Al Jazeera.

[Brooklyn]

Interesting article from Al Jazeera.

Kudos to Generation Z or whatever they are called. Also good to see Geraldo on the side of the truth and in favor of Palestinians. His mom is Jewish so nobody can accuse him of antiSemitism.

It's time for the USA to cease all financial support to the Israeli apartheid state. Those on the right who claim to be "pro life" should readily agree since much of that support goes to financing abortions.

[jhu72]

UN war crimes expert claims Israeli settlements amount to a war crime.