Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Peter Brown]

Initially I identified the US and most recently recently China. Your reading comprehension needs improvement.

Not how I read it. My fault...

You’ll notice (quickly, assuming you haven’t already) that the board liberals prefer insults and personal information rather than discussing earnest policy. Your posts are perfectly informative and reasonable.

It’s relatively fruitless discussing anything with most liberals here. Even Brook, who is far more intelligent than his fellow liberals, has to call you an evangelist rather than debating your points.

Luckily for them, the folks who run Fanlax are similarly minded.

[Brooklyn]

If anything, you sound far more like a television evangelist than I can ever hope to be. I wonder if MDLax thinks so.

Not sure why you're attacking me. And I'm far from a television evangelist. Just sharing what was shared with me.

As for your post, like I said before, try convincing those True Torah Jews that the Bible is wrong. Good luck.

Though I could be wrong, I don't think so many of them are big lacrosse fans. let alone hang out at FanLax. Which is why I'm talking to you. And, Brooklyn, I have to say, they are not "true Torah Jews" nor is the bible wrong. Certainly not based on this discussion.

Attack? Nah, not at all so I take it back. But I'll let MDLax know that such a view can be interpreted as an attack.

As for True Torah, I accept their view because they use the Bible in a manner that no one can successfully refute. If anyone can prove them wrong, let them present their "proofs".






Note to MDLax --- do not accuse me of sounding like a television evangelist as such words can be interpreted as a personal attack. I doubt you meant it (I certainly didn't) that way but it would be better not to use the term.


Peace ~ Shalom to all ...

[Brooklyn]

Initially I identified the US and most recently recently China. Your reading comprehension needs improvement.

Not how I read it. My fault...

You’ll notice (quickly, assuming you haven’t already) that the board liberals prefer insults and personal information rather than discussing earnest policy. Your posts are perfectly informative and reasonable.

It’s relatively fruitless discussing anything with most liberals here. Even Brook, who is far more intelligent than his fellow liberals, has to call you an evangelist rather than debating your points.

Luckily for them, the folks who run Fanlax are similarly minded.

Well, well. Look who's back in town.

As for my words to Gretchen, I took it back. We'll wait to see if MDLax does the same. Will you now take back the terms you've used against others here?

[Gretchen]

Tangentially related to this thread...

Sacha Baron Cohen Slams Twitter and CEO Jack Dorsey for Enabling Antisemitism Online



British Jewish actor Sacha Baron Cohen criticized Twitter and CEO Jack Dorsey on Saturday for allegedly allowing antisemitism to flourish on the social media platform amid the ongoing violence in the Middle East.

“The surge in antisemitism on the streets is fueled by antisemitism on social media,” the “Borat” star tweeted. He then tagged the Twitter executive and the platform he co-founded, asking, “Why do you allow #HitlerWasRight ?! Those who celebrate the Holocaust aim to perpetuate another. #StopHateForProfit.”

The actor’s post shared a report by the Anti-Defamation League released on Thursday, which showed data about an uptick in online and offline incidents of antisemitism across the United States since the recent outbreak of violence between Israel and Hamas. The report revealed that more than 17,000 tweets used variations of the phrase “Hitler Was Right” between May 7 and May 14. The ADL said it has “also seen an increase in on-the-ground activity that demonizes Israel and that has crossed at times into antisemitism.”

Cohen spoke at the ADL summit in 2019, where he also slammed social media giants for enabling hate speech on their platforms and called on the companies to take action in reducing hate and antisemitic conspiracy theories on their sites.

[MDlaxfan76]

A privileged drunk? Okay, you do you.

No dog in the fight as, over and over, you go after the Jews. And, I'm still confused, you said "and second it places them in various dubious company — ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland." Who is this dubious company that you're comparing the Jewish Israelis to?...

I “go after” those whose actions warrant it. A more than cursory reading of my comments will show I “go after” the Palestinian leadership as well.

Pretty much all peoples have practiced these techniques, among them the United States.

Hi Gretchen,
Pretty sure that pizza is a fair thinker on a myriad of topics and is unlikely to be closed off to consideration of other's opinions, regardless of strong his own may be.

Doesn't mean that challenge of language isn't appropriate, as often we all incorporate various words and phrases into our communication with meanings we may be unaware of as to how others would read.

Unless someone really goes off the deep end (which does happen) best to give the benefit of the doubt...

On the other hand, pizza, I'm confident you can imagine how some things can be read as insensitive...given that sensitivities can be very high.

[MDlaxfan76]

Tangentially related to this thread...

Sacha Baron Cohen Slams Twitter and CEO Jack Dorsey for Enabling Antisemitism Online



British Jewish actor Sacha Baron Cohen criticized Twitter and CEO Jack Dorsey on Saturday for allegedly allowing antisemitism to flourish on the social media platform amid the ongoing violence in the Middle East.

“The surge in antisemitism on the streets is fueled by antisemitism on social media,” the “Borat” star tweeted. He then tagged the Twitter executive and the platform he co-founded, asking, “Why do you allow #HitlerWasRight ?! Those who celebrate the Holocaust aim to perpetuate another. #StopHateForProfit.”

The actor’s post shared a report by the Anti-Defamation League released on Thursday, which showed data about an uptick in online and offline incidents of antisemitism across the United States since the recent outbreak of violence between Israel and Hamas. The report revealed that more than 17,000 tweets used variations of the phrase “Hitler Was Right” between May 7 and May 14. The ADL said it has “also seen an increase in on-the-ground activity that demonizes Israel and that has crossed at times into antisemitism.”

Cohen spoke at the ADL summit in 2019, where he also slammed social media giants for enabling hate speech on their platforms and called on the companies to take action in reducing hate and antisemitic conspiracy theories on their sites.

Actually, more than "tangentially".

Good for Cohen for challenging.

[MDlaxfan76]

If anything, you sound far more like a television evangelist than I can ever hope to be. I wonder if MDLax thinks so.

Not sure why you're attacking me. And I'm far from a television evangelist. Just sharing what was shared with me.

As for your post, like I said before, try convincing those True Torah Jews that the Bible is wrong. Good luck.

Though I could be wrong, I don't think so many of them are big lacrosse fans. let alone hang out at FanLax. Which is why I'm talking to you. And, Brooklyn, I have to say, they are not "true Torah Jews" nor is the bible wrong. Certainly not based on this discussion.

Attack? Nah, not at all so I take it back. But I'll let MDLax know that such a view can be interpreted as an attack.

As for True Torah, I accept their view because they use the Bible in a manner that no one can successfully refute. If anyone can prove them wrong, let them present their "proofs".






Note to MDLax --- do not accuse me of sounding like a television evangelist as such words can be interpreted as a personal attack. I doubt you meant it (I certainly didn't) that way but it would be better not to use the term.


Peace ~ Shalom to all ...

yikes, did I call you a "television evangelist"???
Some of the most scummy folks around, exploiting people hungry, often desperately so, for meaning and faith...and certainty...for a buck? A lot of bucks?

No, I merely asked whether you meant to come across the way you were sounding, as someone who, in common with many evangelicals and other fundamentalists, believe there is a provably singularly correct interpretation of sacred text.

If so, I disagree.
But definitely doesn't make you a scummy TV evangelist!

On the merits, I already said that I don't think any orthodox or fundamentalist believer in a singularly correct interpretation would ever find an alternative interpretation to have "refuted" their interpretation...and vice versa.

So, your assertion "never been refuted" is rather meaningless IMO.

But that doesn't make you a scummy person!

[Gretchen]

... I already said that I don't think any orthodox or fundamentalist believer in a singularly correct interpretation would ever find an alternative interpretation to have "refuted" their interpretation...and vice versa. So, your assertion "never been refuted" is rather meaningless IMO.

Neturei Karta aside, Yiddishkeit (Judaism) is unique in it's emphasis on differing perspectives. Not only are Jews encouraged to question but their learning of the holiest of texts is actually studying other Jews from previous generations... Questioning. For example, a typical page in a Gemara/Talmud (see below) is a relatively small piece in the center of the page which is discussing whatever. Let's say it's discussing whether a homeowner has an obligation to put a fence around their roof because someone might climb up there and fall off the roof. (The vast majority of Jewish law is a *lot* like American law. Built on logic, wrought with what-ifs, etc.) So the central text will discuss the scenario and the perspectives of the rabbis from 1,000s of years ago. Especially the dissenting opinions. (We don't always judge or rule according to the dissenting opinions but we most certainly air them out so we understand why we rule this way and not that.) Then, like the rings of a tree, there's text around this central text that has rabbis from later generations discussing this same issue, expressing deeper insights, etc. Then text around *that* text. Then... eventually the page gets too full so you need to go to separate books but the spirit of the page of the Gemara is never lost. Generation after generation after generation discussing and questioning all in the name of getting to the truth. MDlaxfan76, the reason I write this is to make the point that... these are the most religious of the religious Jews, they are the most "orthodox" (not a name Orthodox Jews gave themselves, a name that non-"orthodox" Jews gave orthodox Jews... It's a ridiculous name.) Judaism is very different than Christianity, than Islam in their fundamentalism. This is not to say that there aren't fundamentalist, myopic Jews. There are. Much as there are Jews with diabetes or MS or whatever. Jews are humans. But this fundamentalism isn't inherit to Judaism. If anything, it's antithetical. If you say to Shlermie, Murder is bad! Shlermie might say, What do you mean by murder? There's a reason there are so many Jewish lawyers...

[Brooklyn]

yikes, did I call you a "television evangelist"???
Some of the most scummy folks around, exploiting people hungry, often desperately so, for meaning and faith...and certainty...for a buck? A lot of bucks?

No, I merely asked whether you meant to come across the way you were sounding, as someone who, in common with many evangelicals and other fundamentalists, believe there is a provably singularly correct interpretation of sacred text.

If so, I disagree.
But definitely doesn't make you a scummy TV evangelist!

On the merits, I already said that I don't think any orthodox or fundamentalist believer in a singularly correct interpretation would ever find an alternative interpretation to have "refuted" their interpretation...and vice versa.

So, your assertion "never been refuted" is rather meaningless IMO.

But that doesn't make you a scummy person!

~ definitely doesn't make you a scummy TV evangelist! ~

One would at least hope not.




~ your assertion "never been refuted" is rather meaningless IMO. ~

I stand by that truthful assertion just like they do. Best part of all is that it proves that opposing Zionist ideology does not constitute anti Semitism. They are the first ones to uphold that truth.



Shalom ...

[MDlaxfan76]

Hi Gretchen,
I'm actually quite familiar with midrash, though would certainly not claim expertise or scholarship myself.
I'm also quite aware of the diversity within Judaism, including various "Orthodox" sects. Again, not a scholar though.

And yes, the label 'fundamentalist' can have connotations not deserved in certain senses. If I've been sloppy in my language, my apologies. I do take your point that 'questioning' is far more the practice of the 'most religious' 'Orthodox Jews" than not, but I'd slightly disagree about whether one's adherence to the rules, laws, of thousands of years past makes one 'more religious', or "faithful"...though certainly that's the belief of those Jews who do adhere...and I respect that belief, even if I disagree with that conclusion.

As I'd written earlier, I found this "questioning" process to be quite eye opening in terms of my own sense of faith, having been raised in the hierarchical traditions of much of Christianity, in which a preacher tells the congregation what texts mean, what to think. Had I not found this path to considering sacred texts and God's influence in our lives, I do not think I'd be as open to faith as I continue to be. Having had what I'd describe as a recognition, a 'witness'' of the power of faith to truly change people's lives, I wanted to find a path forward, having found so much of the texts and dogma of the church to be quite problematic. The notion that there's value simply in the exploration, the questioning, of what God wishes for us, how to live, etc enables one to enter into a personal journey to do so.

Works for me.

[MDlaxfan76]

yikes, did I call you a "television evangelist"???
Some of the most scummy folks around, exploiting people hungry, often desperately so, for meaning and faith...and certainty...for a buck? A lot of bucks?

No, I merely asked whether you meant to come across the way you were sounding, as someone who, in common with many evangelicals and other fundamentalists, believe there is a provably singularly correct interpretation of sacred text.

If so, I disagree.
But definitely doesn't make you a scummy TV evangelist!

On the merits, I already said that I don't think any orthodox or fundamentalist believer in a singularly correct interpretation would ever find an alternative interpretation to have "refuted" their interpretation...and vice versa.

So, your assertion "never been refuted" is rather meaningless IMO.

But that doesn't make you a scummy person!

~ definitely doesn't make you a scummy TV evangelist! ~

One would at least hope not.




~ your assertion "never been refuted" is rather meaningless IMO. ~

I stand by that truthful assertion just like they do. Best part of all is that it proves that opposing Zionist ideology does not constitute anti Semitism. They are the first ones to uphold that truth.



Shalom ...

So, Brooklyn, would you agree that saying I'd called you a "television evangelist" was off-base, a gross exaggeration? It's ok, to say "my bad".

You're certainly welcome to believe as you believe. But you can be confident that few would agree with you that it "proves" anything at all more than a chosen belief set, a singular textual interpretation not held by most Jews.

As to opposition of Zionism is not necessarily antisemitic, sure. No "proof" actually needed to make that assertion.

Nor would the statement that most anti-semites oppose Zionism, and the State of Israel, be untrue. Indeed, most do oppose.

The easiest statement with which most can agree is that disagreement with a specific political party or set of policies does not make one-anti semitic, indeed many such critics simply believe that such are not in the long term interest of the State of Israel or Judaism.

[Matnum PI]

...Best part of all is that it proves that opposing Zionist ideology does not constitute anti Semitism...

How is that? Because Jews can't be anti-Semitic? In large numbers, some of the biggest anti-Semites in world history were Jews. Even religious Jews.

[Gretchen]

I'm actually quite familiar with midrash, though would certainly not claim expertise or scholarship myself.

FWIW, Gemaras, the Talmud, are primarily discussions about Jewish Law. Primarily. And Jewish Law, much like american law in america, is the heart beat of Jewish life. it's important. Midrash is more the stories around the stories. For example, there's a midrash that says that Moses was 10 feet tall. Some take this literally, some do not. That's a midrash. 9 out of 10 ten times, when someone says something in Judaism is ridiculous, usually it involves a midrash and Midrashes are far from central to Judaism and Jewish life. Interesting. but not central.

I found this "questioning" process to be quite eye opening in terms of my own sense of faith. [more] The notion that there's value simply in the exploration, the questioning, of what God wishes for us, how to live, etc enables one to enter into a personal journey to do so. Works for me.

Works for me, too. If Judaism didn't mesh with what I've experienced and continue to experience in life, I'd keep on walking. i.e. I don't care if my education and understanding is derived from a thousand year old book or an Anne Tyler novel, it just needs to ring true and, preferably, ring deep. And Israel is the Jewish State. Jews are good people. As you said previously, PosterA is a good guy or PosterB didn't mean it that way or Much as you think some posters should be given the benefit of the doubt, I feel the same about Israel. but, instead, many talk about Israel and Hamas like they're just two sides of the same coin. which simply is not true. Israel genuinely wants Peace. I do not believe the same for Hamas.

[Kinduv]

i have t0ns 0f jew friends in 10ng is1and, t0ns,,,

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm actually quite familiar with midrash, though would certainly not claim expertise or scholarship myself.

FWIW, Gemaras, the Talmud, are primarily discussions about Jewish Law. Primarily. And Jewish Law, much like american law in america, is the heart beat of Jewish life. it's important. Midrash is more the stories around the stories. For example, there's a midrash that says that Moses was 10 feet tall. Some take this literally, some do not. That's a midrash. 9 out of 10 ten times, when someone says something in Judaism is ridiculous, usually it involves a midrash and Midrashes are far from central to Judaism and Jewish life. Interesting. but not central.

I found this "questioning" process to be quite eye opening in terms of my own sense of faith. [more] The notion that there's value simply in the exploration, the questioning, of what God wishes for us, how to live, etc enables one to enter into a personal journey to do so. Works for me.

Works for me, too. If Judaism didn't mesh with what I've experienced and continue to experience in life, I'd keep on walking. i.e. I don't care if my education and understanding is derived from a thousand year old book or an Anne Tyler novel, it just needs to ring true and, preferably, ring deep. And Israel is the Jewish State. Jews are good people. As you said previously, PosterA is a good guy or PosterB didn't mean it that way or Much as you think some posters should be given the benefit of the doubt, I feel the same about Israel. but, instead, many talk about Israel and Hamas like they're just two sides of the same coin. which simply is not true. Israel genuinely wants Peace. I do not believe the same for Hamas.

Tony Blinken could not have been much more blunt today about the view of Hamas, at least from this Administration...which is not to say that the current Israeli gov't should be exempt from tough critique. But I'm with you that the attempts to suggest equivalency are simply wrong.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that midrash encompasses all questioning and debate within Judaism, whether specific to Law or other aspects of the sacred texts. I was speaking more metaphorically...which may be the whole point for me.

That said, you may wish to remember that Jewish Law is not the heartbeat of "Jewish life" for all Jews, including some who certainly consider themselves religiously faithful. More "observant", yes, but others are culturally "Jewish" or "Israeli" and only some aspects are deemed important to observe, if any. But certainly it is an important aspect for lots. Sounds like it's important to you, which I totally respect. But then I also respect others paths.

[Gretchen]

That said, you may wish to remember that Jewish Law is not the heartbeat of "Jewish life" for all Jews, including some who certainly consider themselves religiously faithful. More "observant", yes, but others are culturally "Jewish" or "Israeli" and only some aspects are deemed important to observe, if any. But certainly it is an important aspect for lots. Sounds like it's important to you, which I totally respect. But then I also respect others paths.

i also respect other paths (though I'm unsure why I'm even saying this but, I am) and Jewish law is the heartbeat of Jewish life. Not of every Jews life but of Jewish life. If a Jew doesn't live according to Jewish Law, this is well and good, they're still a Jew, etc. but it is critical that Jewish Law and what is uniquely jewish in a jewish life is defined by the Torah, by the uniqueness of judaism, and not by the behaviors of Jews. otherwise, jews would be a thing of the past quicker than you can say, epispasm. along with the anti-semitism that jews have faced for thousands of years, jews have also faced assimilation. always. and giving legitimacy to what assimilating Jews insist is "jewish" has never been a formula for success.

[Brooklyn]

You're certainly welcome to believe as you believe. But you can be confident that few would agree with you that it "proves" anything at all more than a chosen belief set, a singular textual interpretation not held by most Jews.

Bottom line is, just try to prove them wrong. I'd love to watch such a debate.

[Brooklyn]

...Best part of all is that it proves that opposing Zionist ideology does not constitute anti Semitism...

How is that? Because Jews can't be anti-Semitic? In large numbers, some of the biggest anti-Semites in world history were Jews. Even religious Jews.

Examples?

[old salt]

I am proud that the USA has the largest Jewish diaspora in the world. It has made us a far better country (imho)... I would have welcomed all Jews into the US with open arms, after also having done so in the 1930's, for those who wished to emigrate. It would have made us an even greater, stronger, nation & saved the world a great deal of suffering.

The numbers towards the bottom of the wiki page are more accurate. Israel is just over 6 million Jews, US is just under.

Where would these 6 million Israeli Jews go? Or, I believe the better question, where would the millions of Jews have gone in the US in the 1940s? They won't all fit in Brooklyn, Manhattan, Philly, etc. In a post-Digital age, Living in Iowa makes substantially more sense. But in the 1940s, this option wasn't so obvious. And, though a pleasant thought, the level of antisemitism in the world at this time, including the US, was pretty darn high. Just so we don't lose sight of reality. The kind of antisemitism that leads a person to say, Freakin' Jews! They're these passive victims! and then when the Jews take up guns and defend themselves the same person, the same antisemite says, Freakin' Jews! They're as bad as the Nazis!

They'd go all over the USA, just like the migrants pouring over our southern border or overstaying their visas. We have open borders.
Reality is not a prerequisite when rewriting history.

[old salt]

Logically, what is the more likely impetus to the reported increase in antisemitic attacks in the US ?

(a) Marjorie Taylor Greene's remarks comparing Pelosi's mask mandate to the Holocaust.

(b) Israel's bombing of Gaza.

If you get your news from MSNBC, it's due solely to (a) & unrelated to (b).

Greene's idiotic remarks are terribly insensitive. They trivialize the vilest event in human history. How do they incite antisemitic violence ?