Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Gretchen]

Jewish Torah practitioners who condemn Zionist evils...

the Neturei Karta are a fringe group. obviously they exist so there are some Jews who think like them. But this is a very small group. Less than 1% of 1% of religious Jews. the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.

[PizzaSnake]

Jewish Torah practitioners who condemn Zionist evils...

the Neturei Karta are a fringe group. obviously they exist so there are some Jews who think like them. But this is a very small group. Less than 1% of 1% of religious Jews. the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.

“why Israel exists.”

Why besides the whim of the Great Powers post WW1?

[MDlaxfan76]

Jewish Torah practitioners who condemn Zionist evils...

the Neturei Karta are a fringe group. obviously they exist so there are some Jews who think like them. But this is a very small group. Less than 1% of 1% of religious Jews. the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.

“why Israel exists.”

Why besides the whim of the Great Powers post WW1?

hmmm..the Shoah?

[Gretchen]

“why Israel exists.”
Why besides the whim of the Great Powers post WW1?

hmmm..the Shoah?

And the literal history of the Jews for thousands of year before the Shoah. The "Jewish Problem" (the problem being, What do we do with the Jews?) has been an issue for the Jews ever since there've been Jews. For thousands of years, at least every 100 hundred years, the Jews are asked to convert, leave from wherever they're currently living, or die. Over and over and over and over and... over. After the most recent solution to the Jewish Problem, a Final Solution, the Jews said, Enough. And, this "enough" served as the impetus for the State of Israel. A much better solution than what the Jews have been facing. What's happening in Israel is not new by any stretch of the imagination. What's new (at least relatively new) is that the Jews are in their homeland, organized, and armed. And, for some, this may be a problem. But, for most Jews, this problem is better than the thousands of years old "Jewish Problem".

[PizzaSnake]

“why Israel exists.”
Why besides the whim of the Great Powers post WW1?

hmmm..the Shoah?

And the literal history of the Jews for thousands of year before the Shoah. The "Jewish Problem" (the problem being, What do we do with the Jews?) has been an issue for the Jews ever since there've been Jews. For thousands of years, at least every 100 hundred years, the Jews are asked to convert, leave from wherever they're currently living, or die. Over and over and over and over and... over. After the most recent solution to the Jewish Problem, a Final Solution, the Jews said, Enough. And, this "enough" served as the impetus for the State of Israel. A much better solution than what the Jews have been facing. What's happening in Israel is not new by any stretch of the imagination. What's new (at least relatively new) is that the Jews are in their homeland, organized, and armed. And, for some, this may be a problem. But, for most Jews, this problem is better than the thousands of years old "Jewish Problem".

So it, “Israel” always existed as an idea and was made manifest in the current location by some sort of transubstantiation?

[MDlaxfan76]

“why Israel exists.”
Why besides the whim of the Great Powers post WW1?

hmmm..the Shoah?

And the literal history of the Jews for thousands of year before the Shoah. The "Jewish Problem" (the problem being, What do we do with the Jews?) has been an issue for the Jews ever since there've been Jews. For thousands of years, at least every 100 hundred years, the Jews are asked to convert, leave from wherever they're currently living, or die. Over and over and over and over and... over. After the most recent solution to the Jewish Problem, a Final Solution, the Jews said, Enough. And, this "enough" served as the impetus for the State of Israel. A much better solution than what the Jews have been facing. What's happening in Israel is not new by any stretch of the imagination. What's new (at least relatively new) is that the Jews are in their homeland, organized, and armed. And, for some, this may be a problem. But, for most Jews, this problem is better than the thousands of years old "Jewish Problem".

So it, “Israel” always existed as an idea and was made manifest in the current location by some sort of transubstantiation?

I'm not sure I'm following you on this one, pizza. "transubstantiation"? That seems almost a perverse reference, given the fraught history Catholicism has had with both Jews and Arabs over many centuries.

Gretchen is certainly correct about the long history, as I was about the Shoah, and thus impetus, for the creation of the current State of Israel. Nor is it any accident as to its location, specific borders aside.

What are you actually questioning?
For instance, IMO, It's certainly legitimate to assert that the Palestinian Arabs also have a claim to much the same territory, which has changed control from one group to another for thousands of years of back and forth. Prior to the creation of the State of Israel, the British had control, not the Palestinians nor the Jews.

It's also reasonable, IMO, to challenge the tactics and policies of the right wingers currently in control of the Israeli government. But that's very different from questioning the fundamental legitimacy, or "why" of there being one Jewish state in this world, within a sea of Muslim states.

I was also a bit puzzled by the initial statement about the Great Powers post World War1...did you mean WWII ?

[PizzaSnake]

“why Israel exists.”
Why besides the whim of the Great Powers post WW1?

hmmm..the Shoah?

And the literal history of the Jews for thousands of year before the Shoah. The "Jewish Problem" (the problem being, What do we do with the Jews?) has been an issue for the Jews ever since there've been Jews. For thousands of years, at least every 100 hundred years, the Jews are asked to convert, leave from wherever they're currently living, or die. Over and over and over and over and... over. After the most recent solution to the Jewish Problem, a Final Solution, the Jews said, Enough. And, this "enough" served as the impetus for the State of Israel. A much better solution than what the Jews have been facing. What's happening in Israel is not new by any stretch of the imagination. What's new (at least relatively new) is that the Jews are in their homeland, organized, and armed. And, for some, this may be a problem. But, for most Jews, this problem is better than the thousands of years old "Jewish Problem".

So it, “Israel” always existed as an idea and was made manifest in the current location by some sort of transubstantiation?

I'm not sure I'm following you on this one, pizza. "transubstantiation"? That seems almost a perverse reference, given the fraught history Catholicism has had with both Jews and Arabs over many centuries.

Gretchen is certainly correct about the long history, as I was about the Shoah, and thus impetus, for the creation of the current State of Israel. Nor is it any accident as to its location, specific borders aside.

What are you actually questioning?
For instance, IMO, It's certainly legitimate to assert that the Palestinian Arabs also have a claim to much the same territory, which has changed control from one group to another for thousands of years of back and forth. Prior to the creation of the State of Israel, the British had control, not the Palestinians nor the Jews.

It's also reasonable, IMO, to challenge the tactics and policies of the right wingers currently in control of the Israeli government. But that's very different from questioning the fundamental legitimacy, or "why" of there being one Jewish state in this world, within a sea of Muslim states.

I was also a bit puzzled by the initial statement about the Great Powers post World War1...did you mean WWII ?

My lexicon is not limited to only the “primary” definition of a word. Transubstantiate can also mean conversion to another substance. I considered transmogrify, but that has definite negative connotations. As for the issue of “blood libel” you are obliquely referencing, perhaps I should have used the word consubstantiation, or spiritual presence manifested physically. Please excuse my imprecise diction.

As for the post WW1 reference I am speaking of the partitioning of the Ottoman- Turk empire among the “Great Powers”:

“At the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire following World War I, the victorious European states divided many of its component regions into newly created states under League of Nations mandates according to deals that had been struck with other interested parties.[1] In the Middle East, Syria (including the Ottoman autonomous Christian Lebanon and the surrounding areas that became the Republic of Lebanon) came under French control, while Mesopotamia and Palestine were allotted to the British.”

“In 1917 the British Government issued the Balfour Declaration which declared British support for the creation in Palestine of a "national home for the Jewish people". The declaration was enthusiastically received by many Jews worldwide, but was opposed by Palestinian and Arab leaders, who later claimed that the objective was a breach of promises made to the Sharif of Mecca in 1915, in exchange for Arab help fighting the Ottoman Empire during World War I.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History ... _Palestine

Apart from that bit of history, I was responding to Gretchen’s comment, “the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.” So this understanding is a shared understanding held by all religious Jews, and by logical extension, not shared by irreligious Jews? In any case, there is this shared understanding among observant Jews is why Israel exists? The problem with present day religious adherents claiming dominion based on historical claims is obvious, unless the specific location is immaterial. What of the Palestinians claims to exactly the same territory based on historical (and much more immediate residence and domicile)? Which groups claim is more valid?

None of which is to say that I particularly care where this “home” is; what I take exception to (or is that too Kissingerian?) is the actions that the Jewish Israelis are carrying out. First it is likely to exacerbate and continue the problem, and second it places them in various dubious company — ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland.

[Gretchen]

I was responding to Gretchen’s comment, “the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists"... The problem with present day religious adherents claiming dominion based on historical claims is obvious..."

My speaking to religious Jews had nothing to do with claiming dominion.

...what I take exception to (or is that too Kissingerian?) is the actions that the Jewish Israelis are carrying out. First it is likely to exacerbate and continue the problem, and second it places them in various dubious company — ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland.

"ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland"... hmm. i wonder what that veiled reference is referring to? comparing Israeli Jews to...?

[MDlaxfan76]

“why Israel exists.”
Why besides the whim of the Great Powers post WW1?

hmmm..the Shoah?

And the literal history of the Jews for thousands of year before the Shoah. The "Jewish Problem" (the problem being, What do we do with the Jews?) has been an issue for the Jews ever since there've been Jews. For thousands of years, at least every 100 hundred years, the Jews are asked to convert, leave from wherever they're currently living, or die. Over and over and over and over and... over. After the most recent solution to the Jewish Problem, a Final Solution, the Jews said, Enough. And, this "enough" served as the impetus for the State of Israel. A much better solution than what the Jews have been facing. What's happening in Israel is not new by any stretch of the imagination. What's new (at least relatively new) is that the Jews are in their homeland, organized, and armed. And, for some, this may be a problem. But, for most Jews, this problem is better than the thousands of years old "Jewish Problem".

So it, “Israel” always existed as an idea and was made manifest in the current location by some sort of transubstantiation?

I'm not sure I'm following you on this one, pizza. "transubstantiation"? That seems almost a perverse reference, given the fraught history Catholicism has had with both Jews and Arabs over many centuries.

Gretchen is certainly correct about the long history, as I was about the Shoah, and thus impetus, for the creation of the current State of Israel. Nor is it any accident as to its location, specific borders aside.

What are you actually questioning?
For instance, IMO, It's certainly legitimate to assert that the Palestinian Arabs also have a claim to much the same territory, which has changed control from one group to another for thousands of years of back and forth. Prior to the creation of the State of Israel, the British had control, not the Palestinians nor the Jews.

It's also reasonable, IMO, to challenge the tactics and policies of the right wingers currently in control of the Israeli government. But that's very different from questioning the fundamental legitimacy, or "why" of there being one Jewish state in this world, within a sea of Muslim states.

I was also a bit puzzled by the initial statement about the Great Powers post World War1...did you mean WWII ?

My lexicon is not limited to only the “primary” definition of a word. Transubstantiate can also mean conversion to another substance. I considered transmogrify, but that has definite negative connotations. As for the issue of “blood libel” you are obliquely referencing, perhaps I should have used the word consubstantiation, or spiritual presence manifested physically. Please excuse my imprecise diction.

As for the post WW1 reference I am speaking of the partitioning of the Ottoman- Turk empire among the “Great Powers”:

“At the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire following World War I, the victorious European states divided many of its component regions into newly created states under League of Nations mandates according to deals that had been struck with other interested parties.[1] In the Middle East, Syria (including the Ottoman autonomous Christian Lebanon and the surrounding areas that became the Republic of Lebanon) came under French control, while Mesopotamia and Palestine were allotted to the British.”

“In 1917 the British Government issued the Balfour Declaration which declared British support for the creation in Palestine of a "national home for the Jewish people". The declaration was enthusiastically received by many Jews worldwide, but was opposed by Palestinian and Arab leaders, who later claimed that the objective was a breach of promises made to the Sharif of Mecca in 1915, in exchange for Arab help fighting the Ottoman Empire during World War I.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History ... _Palestine

Apart from that bit of history, I was responding to Gretchen’s comment, “the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.” So this understanding is a shared understanding held by all religious Jews, and by logical extension, not shared by irreligious Jews? In any case, there is this shared understanding among observant Jews is why Israel exists? The problem with present day religious adherents claiming dominion based on historical claims is obvious, unless the specific location is immaterial. What of the Palestinians claims to exactly the same territory based on historical (and much more immediate residence and domicile)? Which groups claim is more valid?

None of which is to say that I particularly care where this “home” is; what I take exception to (or is that too Kissingerian?) is the actions that the Jewish Israelis are carrying out. First it is likely to exacerbate and continue the problem, and second it places them in various dubious company — ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland.

Thanks for the explanation, aside from the "lexicon" and it's unfortunate overlap. Nah, I think any reference to Catholicism in this context is problematic. Yes, the blood libel has been used over and over again to justify some of the very worst of examples of human behavior. And it continues today.

Yes, the most recent conquerors of the land rather arbitrarily divided up the turf. No doubt, and sure the Balfour Declaration was passed, but it resulted in blowback internally in Britain as well abroad and was not going to happen until the horrors of the Holocaust were revealed (and faith in the British Empire had further weakened at home).. The US, which then became the leading 'great power' as well was not in favor until then.

Do any of the tribes that have traversed these lands for hundreds and thousands of years have a superior claim? Not sure we can say that, and I'm certainly not going to make a religious argument of one over another...and if your pushback is directed to those who do, ok with me. All three Abrahamic faiths have faithful claims on these lands and sites as holy, in some cases their most holy sites and shrines.

Can a Jewish Israel be a good steward for these and upcoming generations, providing safe access to the religious of each faith? Sure hope so. And can the Palestinians achieve their own, thriving state, in peace with Jewish Israel? Sure hope so.

Do I think the current Israeli government is taking the right actions, particularly with settlements? Nope, I think it's counterproductive to a lasting peace being achieved in our lifetimes. Do I think the Palestinians should have responded differently to prior offers to create a Palestinian state with the promise of full recognition of Israel? Yes.

Tragic.

[PizzaSnake]

I was responding to Gretchen’s comment, “the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists"... The problem with present day religious adherents claiming dominion based on historical claims is obvious..."

My speaking to religious Jews had nothing to do with claiming dominion.

...what I take exception to (or is that too Kissingerian?) is the actions that the Jewish Israelis are carrying out. First it is likely to exacerbate and continue the problem, and second it places them in various dubious company — ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland.

"ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland"... hmm. i wonder what that veiled reference is referring to? comparing Israeli Jews to...?

Being neither an Israeli Jew or Palestinian, I really don’t have a dog in this territorial dispute. However, as an American citizen, I’m tired of the impasse and its cost to my nation in blood and treasure.

I will continue to call them like I see them. The Israelis, specifically Likud, are showing little restraint and have been negotiating in bad faith while diminishing the likelihood of a peaceful, mutually equitable solution by expropriating more territory via settlement. Hamas has, to put it mildly, not served the Palestinian people well by its obduracy and use of violence. No amount of whataboutism will change those facts.

A pox on both of their houses.

[Brooklyn]

Jewish Torah practitioners who condemn Zionist evils...

the Neturei Karta are a fringe group. obviously they exist so there are some Jews who think like them. But this is a very small group. Less than 1% of 1% of religious Jews. the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.

Over the years I have seen considerable amounts of criticism levelled at the Neturei Karta and other true Torah Jews. Lots of criticism, but not a shred of refutation. Not one doctrinal point they make has ever been successfully refuted by the haters.

[MDlaxfan76]

Jewish Torah practitioners who condemn Zionist evils...

the Neturei Karta are a fringe group. obviously they exist so there are some Jews who think like them. But this is a very small group. Less than 1% of 1% of religious Jews. the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.

Over the years I have seen considerable amounts of criticism levelled at the Neturei Karta and other true Torah Jews. Lots of criticism, but not a shred of refutation. Not one doctrinal point they make has ever been successfully refuted by the haters.

Brooklyn,

"true Torah"???

I'm perplexed about where you're coming on this topic.
Do you subscribe to this version of Jewish faith and practice yourself?

Not for nuthin' but you are sounding a bit like the evangelical sorts in my faith who believe there is only one true, literal reading acceptable to God. Any variation and one is condemned to eternal damnation. But perhaps I'm mistaking your point.

[njbill]

While it is too late to undo the past, with the benefit of hindsight, it is pretty clear now that it was a bad decision, at least from a geopolitical world peace and safety perspective, to create a Jewish state in 1948, given all the wars and violence that have ensued.

We today in this country (or most of us) believe in self-determination. But that wasn’t the thinking at the end of WWI when colonialism still ruled the day. It is mindboggling in 2021 to think that a country like Britain would be given control over a region (and peoples) thousands of miles away.

The Balfour Declaration led to the creation of Israel (I’m skipping over a huge amount of history). Understandably, the world (or much of it) was more or less guilted into supporting the creation of a Jewish state after WWII.

But that flew in the face of self-determination since at the time Palestine had a large Arab majority population.

Yet another example of the world creating future problems in trying to resolve current ones.

It is probably overly simplistic, but had a Jewish state not been created after WWII, there probably would have been no 9/11, no (US) Iraq wars, no US war in Afghanistan, no ISIS, no Iranian nuclear problems, and of course no wars and violence in the Middle East between the players in that region.

OK, I said that was overly simplistic. That region has found things to fight about, even apart from the Jews, for centuries, but you get my point.

[Gretchen]

While it is too late to undo the past, with the benefit of hindsight, it is pretty clear now that it was a bad decision, at least from a geopolitical world peace and safety perspective, to create a Jewish state in 1948, given all the wars and violence that have ensued.

Post-World War II, there were millions of Jews in Europe with no home, nowhere to go. Countries around the world were accepting Jews but in relatively small numbers. Tens of thousands here, tens of thousands there, etc. And, while the world dragged their feet, Jews were dying. NJ, i don't disagree with you but the "Jewish Problem" I spoke to above (What to do with the Jews?) was screaming loudly and... What to do? England was turning ships from Europe back to where they came from and... The Jews took their futures into their own hands. You're not wrong about what you're saying but it can't be looked at in a vacuum.

[Gretchen]

Being neither an Israeli Jew or Palestinian, I really don’t have a dog in this territorial dispute...

[njbill]

While it is too late to undo the past, with the benefit of hindsight, it is pretty clear now that it was a bad decision, at least from a geopolitical world peace and safety perspective, to create a Jewish state in 1948, given all the wars and violence that have ensued.

Post-World War II, there were millions of Jews in Europe with no home, nowhere to go. Countries around the world were accepting Jews but in relatively small numbers. Tens of thousands here, tens of thousands there, etc. And, while the world dragged their feet, Jews were dying. NJ, i don't disagree with you but the "Jewish Problem" I spoke to above (What to do with the Jews?) was screaming loudly and... What to do? England was turning ships from Europe back to where they came from and... The Jews took their futures into their own hands. You're not wrong about what you're saying but it can't be looked at in a vacuum.

Granted I didn't go into the detail you did (and of course there is no way these issues can be adequately discussed on a lacrosse message board), but I would include the quite accurate points you mention in my "guilted into" comment. I was primarily referring to the Holocaust, but the post-war refugee problems certainly entered into the equation.

[PizzaSnake]

Being neither an Israeli Jew or Palestinian, I really don’t have a dog in this territorial dispute...

A privileged drunk? Okay, you do you.

[Brooklyn]

Jewish Torah practitioners who condemn Zionist evils...

the Neturei Karta are a fringe group. obviously they exist so there are some Jews who think like them. But this is a very small group. Less than 1% of 1% of religious Jews. the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.

Over the years I have seen considerable amounts of criticism levelled at the Neturei Karta and other true Torah Jews. Lots of criticism, but not a shred of refutation. Not one doctrinal point they make has ever been successfully refuted by the haters.

Brooklyn,

"true Torah"???

I'm perplexed about where you're coming on this topic.
Do you subscribe to this version of Jewish faith and practice yourself?

Not for nuthin' but you are sounding a bit like the evangelical sorts in my faith who believe there is only one true, literal reading acceptable to God. Any variation and one is condemned to eternal damnation. But perhaps I'm mistaking your point.

Do you really understand any of this?

True Torah (more commonly known as Orthodox) adherents go by a strict interpretation of the "Tanakh" or what Christians call Old Testament. Over the years they have challenged Zionists to refute what they teach. Zionists have failed to refute any of their teachings. If you think you know the Bible better than they do, then by all means go ahead and accept their open challenge. I guarantee they will make you look awfully dumb.

I recall having mentioned in LP that my own ancestry is Sefardic and that my ancestors succumbed to the brutalities of the Inquisition by becoming what are called "conversos". As for the Bible, just go ahead and believe what you want to believe. Since I do not know Hebrew I sure as heck cannot debate the Old Testament's actual meaning with anyone. But I can certainly debate the New Testament as it is fully translated as shown in Strong's Concordance. Over the years I have debated it with many delusional far right types who think they know the book but don't actually know squat.



Believe what you want. Just don't criticize. Especially remember the immortal words of Bob Dylan ~ never criticize what you don't understand.

[Gretchen]

Over the years I have seen considerable amounts of criticism levelled at the Neturei Karta and other true Torah Jews. Lots of criticism, but not a shred of refutation. Not one doctrinal point they make has ever been successfully refuted by the haters.

Brooklyn, religious Jews vote with their feet. i.e. 99+% of religious Jews adamantly refute what the Neturei Karta believe by living in Israel, visiting Israel, supporting Israel, etc. And the reason why is... Jews can live anywhere they want. They cannot rebuild the Bais HaMikdash (Temple) until Moshiach (the Messiah) comes. That's the big no-no, rebuilding the Bais HaMikdash. Having a Jewish State is not a no-no. And if you want to say, Yes! But you still haven't refuted what they say!, my response is, I can't refute lots of things. You can say that The World According to Garp is a book about the destruction of the American Steel Industry but 99.9999% of people do not read it that way and... Some things cannot be refuted. People see what they see. But that doesn't mean they're right.

[Gretchen]

...the post-war refugee problems certainly entered into the equation.

Agreed. Enormously. And the thousands of years of the Jewish Problem. the timing was right.