Syracuse 2021

[calourie]

No idea what the salary difference would be and if large enough perhaps that trumps all else but that aside Shay would have to be crazy to leave Yale for Cuse.

I don't think Shay would leave Yale for Cuse but I also don't think it's that crazy. He went to nearby Le Moyne for college and Cortland for high school. Provided he would get a nontrivial pay bump—that might be enough to avoid any further headaches stemming from the Ivy administration. There's a reason a bunch of good coaches have left the Ivy League recently. Tierney, Milliman, Tambroni, Tillman, Tiffany (man, lots of "T" names here). If the money is good these Ivy coaches can be had. Now whether or not Syracuse is the right fit for him given all that's transpired there recently is another question.

I guess I phrased that poorly. It isn't crazy to think that he might go, I personally just feel that would be a crazy decision. Again, assuming there isn't a huge financial discrepancy, he is beloved at Yale, has basically lifetime job security, has seemingly found a recruiting sweet spot where he gets some diamonds in the rough that he coaches up but also now several top flight blue chippers annually (really hard to say that headaches with recruiting at Ivys are an issue for him looking at his last few classes), plays in a league that will get multiple bids virtually every year but isn't the complete cage fight of the ACC and while New Haven isn't Boston, is has a lot of great cultural offerings, major cities that are much closer than at Syracuse and he gets to live near the beach. He goes to Cuse and half a season in he could be looking at the feelings towards Milliman for much of this year on the Hopkins board.

Huge Yale and Shay fan here and I've expressed my quite uninformed sense of the probability of Shay moving on to Syracuse above. There are two issues at play here. The first is is Desko going to be given the option to continue on at Syracuse? If the answer is yes, from what I've seen and heard from the man I would assume he would be more than happy to be back at Syracuse. If the answer is no then the search for a suitable replacement will begin if it hasn't already. Andy Shay is going to be at the top of any search for such a replacement, especially given what he has accomplished at Yale added to the fact that his upstate New York roots run deep.

Pcowlax gives some fairly compelling arguments above for why Shay might want to stay at Yale. On the hand there are some compelling reasons for him to make the shift. As CanOpener laid them out nicely on the coaching carousel board :

Here are a few reasons why an Ivy coach would consider the Syracuse job:
* Much more flexible admissions standards and ability to provide 100% admissions commitment on September 1 of junior year
* Full quiver of scholarships vs. no scholarships
* Direct access to one of the best talent bases in the world
* Membership in the best lacrosse conference in the U.S.
* Better TV exposure
* Easier to command a premium salary without raising the hackles of faculty members who earn much less
* Better camp revenue
* Deep history of national success and tradition
* Iconic venue
* More committed fan base
* Better support of the program from the athletic department and university administration (as evidenced by the 2021 Ivy debacle)
* Start spring practices weeks before the Ivy league
* More options for undergraduate majors and professional training vs. liberal arts curriculum
* Better place to raise a family than New Haven (Shay specific)

I obviously have no idea how these issues would weigh out in Andy's mind and I'm sure if offered the opportunity to coach at Syracuse he would consider them all and fairly deeply, and make a decision based on what he judges to be best for himself and his family ( I assume his wife will have plenty of input). If it turns out Andy gets and takes the opportunity to coach at Syracuse in my mind it won't diminish in the least what he has done for the Yale program. If he would rather coach somewhere else rather than Yale he has certainly fulfilled any obligation of loyalty he should feel towards Yale, and I would personally rather have him coaching there than turning down the job and kicking himself for having done so. If the opportunity to coach at Syracuse is given to him and he turns it down because he would rather continue coaching at Yale, having already nixed the idea of coaching at Hopkins it would signify to me that Yale can count on Shay roaming their sidelines for a number of years to come. All I could say to that would be AMEN and thank you baby Jesus.

[molo]

I have no idea whether or not there will be an opening at SU, but it is one of the short list of jobs that any head coach would consider. Just Tillman left Harvard for Maryland and Tiffany left Brown for Virginia, I expect that an Ivy coach would take seriously an overtures from Syracuse.
,

[MDlaxfan76]

No idea what the salary difference would be and if large enough perhaps that trumps all else but that aside Shay would have to be crazy to leave Yale for Cuse.

I don't think Shay would leave Yale for Cuse but I also don't think it's that crazy. He went to nearby Le Moyne for college and Cortland for high school. Provided he would get a nontrivial pay bump—that might be enough to avoid any further headaches stemming from the Ivy administration. There's a reason a bunch of good coaches have left the Ivy League recently. Tierney, Milliman, Tambroni, Tillman, Tiffany (man, lots of "T" names here). If the money is good these Ivy coaches can be had. Now whether or not Syracuse is the right fit for him given all that's transpired there recently is another question.

I guess I phrased that poorly. It isn't crazy to think that he might go, I personally just feel that would be a crazy decision. Again, assuming there isn't a huge financial discrepancy, he is beloved at Yale, has basically lifetime job security, has seemingly found a recruiting sweet spot where he gets some diamonds in the rough that he coaches up but also now several top flight blue chippers annually (really hard to say that headaches with recruiting at Ivys are an issue for him looking at his last few classes), plays in a league that will get multiple bids virtually every year but isn't the complete cage fight of the ACC and while New Haven isn't Boston, is has a lot of great cultural offerings, major cities that are much closer than at Syracuse and he gets to live near the beach. He goes to Cuse and half a season in he could be looking at the feelings towards Milliman for much of this year on the Hopkins board.

Huge Yale and Shay fan here and I've expressed my quite uninformed sense of the probability of Shay moving on to Syracuse above. There are two issues at play here. The first is is Desko going to be given the option to continue on at Syracuse? If the answer is yes, from what I've seen and heard from the man I would assume he would be more than happy to be back at Syracuse. If the answer is no then the search for a suitable replacement will begin if it hasn't already. Andy Shay is going to be at the top of any search for such a replacement, especially given what he has accomplished at Yale added to the fact that his upstate New York roots run deep.

Pcowlax gives some fairly compelling arguments above for why Shay might want to stay at Yale. On the hand there are some compelling reasons for him to make the shift. As CanOpener laid them out nicely on the coaching carousel board :

Here are a few reasons why an Ivy coach would consider the Syracuse job:
* Much more flexible admissions standards and ability to provide 100% admissions commitment on September 1 of junior year
* Full quiver of scholarships vs. no scholarships
* Direct access to one of the best talent bases in the world
* Membership in the best lacrosse conference in the U.S.
* Better TV exposure
* Easier to command a premium salary without raising the hackles of faculty members who earn much less
* Better camp revenue
* Deep history of national success and tradition
* Iconic venue
* More committed fan base
* Better support of the program from the athletic department and university administration (as evidenced by the 2021 Ivy debacle)
* Start spring practices weeks before the Ivy league
* More options for undergraduate majors and professional training vs. liberal arts curriculum
* Better place to raise a family than New Haven (Shay specific)

I obviously have no idea how these issues would weigh out in Andy's mind and I'm sure if offered the opportunity to coach at Syracuse he would consider them all and fairly deeply, and make a decision based on what he judges to be best for himself and his family ( I assume his wife will have plenty of input). If it turns out Andy gets and takes the opportunity to coach at Syracuse in my mind it won't diminish in the least what he has done for the Yale program. If he would rather coach somewhere else rather than Yale he has certainly fulfilled any obligation of loyalty he should feel towards Yale, and I would personally rather have him coaching there than turning down the job and kicking himself for having done so. If the opportunity to coach at Syracuse is given to him and he turns it down because he would rather continue coaching at Yale, having already nixed the idea of coaching at Hopkins it would signify to me that Yale can count on Shay roaming their sidelines for a number of years to come. All I could say to that would be AMEN and thank you baby Jesus.

and UVA if I'm not mistaken.

[FannOLax]

Yes, word is that he got a very nice raise when the UVa position was open.

[MDlaxfan76]

Yes, word is that he got a very nice raise when the UVa position was open.

With a ripple effect to other coaches in the Ivies...everyone got a bump, though probably not the same as Shay.

[The Orfling]

Anybody can leave at any time, and prior posters have documented past Ivy League coaches making the leap to the ACC or other opportunities. However, even assuming John Desko were not to return (which I would still see as a big assumption -- I think Desko will be back), I really do not see Andy Shay going to Syracuse this year. He had a whole team take off spring semester to preserve their ability to play for Yale, for each other, and for him. Like calourie, I am grateful for all Coach Shay has done and would wish him only the best were he to move to another job. But I just don't see him doing that this year, under these circumstances.

[FMUBart]

Anybody can leave at any time, and prior posters have documented past Ivy League coaches making the leap to the ACC or other opportunities. However, even assuming John Desko were not to return (which I would still see as a big assumption -- I think Desko will be back), I really do not see Andy Shay going to Syracuse this year. He had a whole team take off spring semester to preserve their ability to play for Yale, for each other, and for him. Like calourie, I am grateful for all Coach Shay has done and would wish him only the best were he to move to another job. But I just don't see him doing that this year, under these circumstances.

I think Shay is the next SU lax coach for the 2022 season...

[pcowlax]

No idea what the salary difference would be and if large enough perhaps that trumps all else but that aside Shay would have to be crazy to leave Yale for Cuse.

Whole response got deleted. Damn. Anyway, not a Yale undergrad alum (grad school) but I live in the parts and have some thoughts on these. They are of course opinions and welcome arguments. Bring on the oprobrium:


"Here are a few reasons why an Ivy coach would consider the Syracuse job:

* Much more flexible admissions standards and ability to provide 100% admissions commitment on September 1 of junior year- While this is obviously true in that it is vastly easier to get into Cuse than Yale, looking at the past 3-4 classes, it is hard to say Shay is limited by admissions board. Multiple 5 star recruits, top 10 classes...are there really a lot of guys he wants who aren't getting in?

* Full quiver of scholarships vs. no scholarships- True but not. Ivys finagle academic and need scholarships to cover all they want, see above: with these recruit rankings he is getting virtually everyone he wants in.

* Direct access to one of the best talent bases in the world- This one is completely false in 2021. It's not 1979. Fairfield County with easily as many D1 All-americans/stars are section 3 or 5 and LI is just 30 miles away, plus good lord, WEST-1 and the Ivy league...Yale has a much better recruiting "local" base that Syracuse when CT/LI and WEST-1 are included.

* Membership in the best lacrosse conference in the U.S.- That is true, but isn't an obvious positive given Ivy is #2 or 3 with much less pressure

* Better TV exposure- That is true

* Easier to command a premium salary without raising the hackles of faculty members who earn much less- True

* Better camp revenue- No idea on this

* Deep history of national success and tradition- Yes, but as said above, this is as much a negative as positive. Like Hopkins, kids who were born 30 years after the Gaits are not drawn to the name. It helps, but is also confers unrealistic expectations and pressure.

* Iconic venue- No, not at all in 2021. Of course the Dome is iconic. What f'ing kid though wants to go to upstate New York and play lacrosse inside in a degrading, tile peeling dome? They want outside, in the sun, with the girls, warmth and buzz. Not that that is Yale. And still in the NE. But on the coast, much warmer than Cuse, an actual spring and a great outdoor venue. There is literally no bigger trap to building Cuse back up than thinking that "The Dome" is going to help you at all. No one is coming from any distance to Syracuse because they get/"have" to play inside in a dome

* More committed fan base- Obviously yes

* Better support of the program from the athletic department and university administration (as evidenced by the 2021 Ivy debacle)- Oh yes! The Ivy handling of spring sports was pathetic, innumerate, pusillanimous, kowtowing to safetyism as religion, scientifically illiterate PC garbage only for the sake of virtue signaling and a stain on 200 years of intellectual pursuits, pathetical lunacy that hurt the health of their students and their communities

* Start spring practices weeks before the Ivy league- Yup

* More options for undergraduate majors and professional training vs. liberal arts curriculum- Uh, not sure about this, it is the veeeeeery rare student who is going to Syracuse over Yale because of academics


* Better place to raise a family than New Haven (Shay specific)- This is the worst one of all of these and must be someone who have never seen the area around New Haven. I assume Shay is not living downtown in either city (though he would be very happy in Westville or Wooster Square). More realistically, he would live on the shoreline, with some of the nicest towns in what has often been the most expensive state in the country. There is nothing like Madison, Guilford, Clinton, Westbrook, Old Saybrook, etc in upstate NY, these are great family living, lux, beach towns right next to mountains, hiking, vineyards, etc. I know Onongoda and you are no Shoreline!

None of which is to say he won't do it. But there is clearly no "obvious" reason why anyone would make that move.

[wgdsr]

Anybody can leave at any time, and prior posters have documented past Ivy League coaches making the leap to the ACC or other opportunities. However, even assuming John Desko were not to return (which I would still see as a big assumption -- I think Desko will be back), I really do not see Andy Shay going to Syracuse this year. He had a whole team take off spring semester to preserve their ability to play for Yale, for each other, and for him. Like calourie, I am grateful for all Coach Shay has done and would wish him only the best were he to move to another job. But I just don't see him doing that this year, under these circumstances.

but it's been posted on fanlax that it's in motion, is about to accept an offer and have staff locked in by end of memorial day weekend.

[The Orfling]

Anybody can leave at any time, and prior posters have documented past Ivy League coaches making the leap to the ACC or other opportunities. However, even assuming John Desko were not to return (which I would still see as a big assumption -- I think Desko will be back), I really do not see Andy Shay going to Syracuse this year. He had a whole team take off spring semester to preserve their ability to play for Yale, for each other, and for him. Like calourie, I am grateful for all Coach Shay has done and would wish him only the best were he to move to another job. But I just don't see him doing that this year, under these circumstances.

but it's been posted on fanlax that it's in motion, is about to accept an offer and have staff locked in by end of memorial day weekend.

I stand corrected, good sir!

[a fan]

Anybody can leave at any time, and prior posters have documented past Ivy League coaches making the leap to the ACC or other opportunities. However, even assuming John Desko were not to return (which I would still see as a big assumption -- I think Desko will be back), I really do not see Andy Shay going to Syracuse this year. He had a whole team take off spring semester to preserve their ability to play for Yale, for each other, and for him. Like calourie, I am grateful for all Coach Shay has done and would wish him only the best were he to move to another job. But I just don't see him doing that this year, under these circumstances.

but it's been posted on fanlax that it's in motion, is about to accept an offer and have staff locked in by end of memorial day weekend.

I stand corrected, good sir!

I'm wondering how this plays out, seeing as how the SU AD "forgot" to fire Desko first. Will Shay and Desko bump into each other at the office door, ready for work....both with identical keys in hand, like some 2nd rate Laurel and Hardy short?

[wgdsr]

Anybody can leave at any time, and prior posters have documented past Ivy League coaches making the leap to the ACC or other opportunities. However, even assuming John Desko were not to return (which I would still see as a big assumption -- I think Desko will be back), I really do not see Andy Shay going to Syracuse this year. He had a whole team take off spring semester to preserve their ability to play for Yale, for each other, and for him. Like calourie, I am grateful for all Coach Shay has done and would wish him only the best were he to move to another job. But I just don't see him doing that this year, under these circumstances.

but it's been posted on fanlax that it's in motion, is about to accept an offer and have staff locked in by end of memorial day weekend.

I stand corrected, good sir!

I'm wondering how this plays out, seeing as how the SU AD "forgot" to fire Desko first. Will Shay and Desko bump into each other at the office door, ready for work....both with identical keys in hand, like some 2nd rate Laurel and Hardy short?

yeah, that happens all the time, though.

[Kinduv]

tierney!

[calourie]

Anybody can leave at any time, and prior posters have documented past Ivy League coaches making the leap to the ACC or other opportunities. However, even assuming John Desko were not to return (which I would still see as a big assumption -- I think Desko will be back), I really do not see Andy Shay going to Syracuse this year. He had a whole team take off spring semester to preserve their ability to play for Yale, for each other, and for him. Like calourie, I am grateful for all Coach Shay has done and would wish him only the best were he to move to another job. But I just don't see him doing that this year, under these circumstances.

but it's been posted on fanlax that it's in motion, is about to accept an offer and have staff locked in by end of memorial day weekend.

I stand corrected, good sir!

I'm wondering how this plays out, seeing as how the SU AD "forgot" to fire Desko first. Will Shay and Desko bump into each other at the office door, ready for work....both with identical keys in hand, like some 2nd rate Laurel and Hardy short?

yeah, that happens all the time, though.

Unlikely to happen with Desko. I realize Syracuse has it's own forums which I haven't made an effort to "spy" on but I have a feeling Cuse is far more appreciative of Desko's accomplishments than Hopkins was of Petro"s. Starsia was canned somewhat unceremoniously at UVA but his program had a number of issues beyond a slow degradation of the product. As far as his ability to coach Desko was undefeated in the ACC, the nations premier conference in both 2017 and 2018, and got off to an impressive start in 2020 before the season was cut short by Covid. Granted the performance of Syracuse in the NCAAs has left something to be desired since 2013 but we should remember that since Desko became coach of the Orange they have won 5 championships, been runner up 3 times, made the final four twice, the quarterinals 4 times and been to the dance in 22 of the 23 years the championship has been held during his tenure. If that isn't worthy of another bite at the apple I don't know what is. Everyone really needs to take a step back and realize this year is also a Covid aberration, with the rest of the ACC, Georgetown, Rutgers, Ohio State and Denver having taken far more advantage of the NCAA's extra year, and grad student shifting ruling than Sracuse for whatever reason was able or willing to do. I propose the school owes it to JD to see what happens when things get back to a more complete normal.

[jrn19]

Anybody can leave at any time, and prior posters have documented past Ivy League coaches making the leap to the ACC or other opportunities. However, even assuming John Desko were not to return (which I would still see as a big assumption -- I think Desko will be back), I really do not see Andy Shay going to Syracuse this year. He had a whole team take off spring semester to preserve their ability to play for Yale, for each other, and for him. Like calourie, I am grateful for all Coach Shay has done and would wish him only the best were he to move to another job. But I just don't see him doing that this year, under these circumstances.

but it's been posted on fanlax that it's in motion, is about to accept an offer and have staff locked in by end of memorial day weekend.

I stand corrected, good sir!

I'm wondering how this plays out, seeing as how the SU AD "forgot" to fire Desko first. Will Shay and Desko bump into each other at the office door, ready for work....both with identical keys in hand, like some 2nd rate Laurel and Hardy short?

yeah, that happens all the time, though.

Unlikely to happen with Desko. I realize Syracuse has it's own forums which I haven't made an effort to "spy" on but I have a feeling Cuse is far more appreciative of Desko's accomplishments than Hopkins was of Petro"s. Starsia was canned somewhat unceremoniously at UVA but his program had a number of issues beyond a slow degradation of the product. As far as his ability to coach Desko was undefeated in the ACC, the nations premier conference in both 2017 and 2018, and got off to an impressive start in 2020 before the season was cut short by Covid. Granted the performance of Syracuse in the NCAAs has left something to be desired since 2013 but we should remember that since Desko became coach of the Orange they have won 5 championships, been runner up 3 times, made the final four twice, the quarterinals 4 times and been to the dance in 22 of the 23 years the championship has been held during his tenure. If that isn't worthy of another bite at the apple I don't know what is. Everyone really needs to take a step back and realize this year is also a Covid aberration, with the rest of the ACC, Georgetown, Rutgers, Ohio State and Denver having taken far more advantage of the NCAA's extra year, and grad student shifting ruling than Sracuse for whatever reason was able or willing to do. I propose the school owes it to JD to see what happens when things get back to a more complete normal.

I mean the last two years of a complete normal they lost in the First Round of the tournament. Just like this year.

All those accomplishments Desko had are significant and worth an incredible amount to his legacy but virtually all of them have come....over 10 years ago. The 5 national titles ended in 2009. The Final Fours essentially ended in 2009, they haven’t made one since 2013 and only 1 since 2009. Even the quarterfinals they haven’t made since 2017.

No one denies Desko’s amazing accomplishments but they are at this point very far in the rear view mirror and thus it’s more than fair to ask how much they mean for whether he can get Syracuse back to that level again

[DocBarrister]

I got Coach Desko on the line. He’s asking whether we could all stop jerking around and let him know if he’s fired. Also, he would like our advice on whether he should leave behind for Coach Shay the Dave Pietramala bobble head doll he received for Christmas back in 2008 (apparently, a gift from Steve “the helicopter” Panarelli).

DocBarrister

[a fan]

I mean the last two years of a complete normal they lost in the First Round of the tournament. Just like this year.

Same thing has been happening to Bill Tierney, if you hadn't noticed.

Maybe the coach isn't the problem.

[ohmilax34]

I mean the last two years of a complete normal they lost in the First Round of the tournament. Just like this year.

Same thing has been happening to Bill Tierney, if you hadn't noticed.

Maybe the coach isn't the problem.

I know you've been over this time and again regarding Petro and now with Desko. Will you admit that the following things can all be true?

*Desko has been a great coach at Syracuse
*It's possible that if Syracuse hired a new coach they could have more success than they're having now with Desko

[HopFan16]

I mean the last two years of a complete normal they lost in the First Round of the tournament. Just like this year.

Same thing has been happening to Bill Tierney, if you hadn't noticed.

Maybe the coach isn't the problem.

I know you've been over this time and again regarding Petro and now with Desko. Will you admit that the following things can all be true?

*Desko has been a great coach at Syracuse
*It's possible that if Syracuse hired a new coach they could have more success than they're having now with Desko

+1

Lars Tiffany won a championship with a bunch of Starsia's players.

Sean McVay took over the Rams for Jeff Fisher and went from 4 to 11 wins in his first year with largely the same group of players. Went to the Super Bowl the following year. The players on Fisher's team were good but he had absolutely no idea what to do with them.

Sometimes the coach/culture is the problem. Not always. But sometimes.

[a fan]

I mean the last two years of a complete normal they lost in the First Round of the tournament. Just like this year.

Same thing has been happening to Bill Tierney, if you hadn't noticed.

Maybe the coach isn't the problem.

I know you've been over this time and again regarding Petro and now with Desko. Will you admit that the following things can all be true?

*Desko has been a great coach at Syracuse
*It's possible that if Syracuse hired a new coach they could have more success than they're having now with Desko

Of course! My opinion is that it is UNLIKELY. The one success story of replacing a coach of late was a complete anomaly, in that UVa had some real off the field issues that needed fixing. Navy is a bust. UMich is a bust. My "going over this time and again" is simply my reaction to people who have convinced themselves that the School itself and its "non-lacrosse attributes" are irrelevant to trips to the Final Four.

But I have to say----my dad is a Syracuse alum. He choked when I told him about where tuition has moved in just 20 years. Why would you go there as a blue chip if you can go to Maryland, and graduate nearly debt free. Or go to Yale and have far better job prospects? Or Duke? Or UVa?

Syracuse's tuition made sense 20 years ago. It doesn't anymore, to my eye. IMHO, this is a real problem. Personally, I don't think Maryland's consistency on the field ....and low tuition...is a coincidence. And UMd's academics are far, far better than they were 20 years ago imho because of the influx of Federal money.

Have you hear the ESPNU crew quote Breschi about the "one more elite player" in having Gray arrive?

What you are telling me is that a new coach will catch that "one more guy" than Desko has, and do it somewhat consistently. Color me skeptical, is all I'm saying.

Because as we've learned, X's and O's is all but irrelevant in D1 Final Four success. You either have the talent on the field, or you don't. Ask Tambroni what happens when the pivot of his entire offense graduates. Did he forget how to coach? Or did the departure of that one elite player kill his chances at Final Fours? I know where my money goes.

That said? As with Petro....if it's time to move on, it's time to move on.