Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Farfromgeneva]

You could be right, this is unique I like any other situations we currently deal with IMO. Just wonder if we can undo what we did now without having wasted 50yrs for nothing at all but bloodshed and misery. Please don’t make me support the hawks there, I agree with you on this part fully.

[jhu72]

Israel's current but unspoken solution being driven by the Likud is genocide. Israel has no viable solution, since rejecting the two state solution. Israel's problem is not external - it is internal, and they are making it worse.

The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians (which is really between Israel, the Palestinians, and Hamas) does include some fault on the part of the Palestinians and particularly Hamas, no? Hamas aren't exactly angels...

... of course Hamas makes it much worse. But the Israeli game plan, because they can't (or don't want to) really solve the Hamas problem (nor can the Palestinians solve the problem), is to punish the Palestinians en masse. I see a big distinction between the mass of Palestinians and Hamas. They have different goals. Israel (Likud) will never see a difference, because they don't want to. They (Likud and other extreme right wing Israelis) use Hamas as an excuse to oppress the Palestinians. If Hamas didn't exist, the Israeli right wing would invent it. No one's hands are clean, but some are much dirtier than others.

Agreed but Israel doesn’t equal Likud anymore than Trumpaga the party didn’t equal everyone here when he was in office.

True (and true) Israel doesn't equal Likud. But they have been driving the past 20 years. There are a lot of Israelis who see the problem and are bothered deeply by it, but they are a minority. Even what passes for liberal in Israel seems to have settled into an "I don't want to think about it" coma.

[Farfromgeneva]

That sounds familiar...why I don’t watch tv news at all unless you count Bloomberg and CNBC

[Matnum PI]

True (and true) Israel doesn't equal Likud. But they have been driving the past 20 years. There are a lot of Israelis who see the problem and are bothered deeply by it, but they are a minority. Even what passes for liberal in Israel seems to have settled into an "I don't want to think about it" coma.

What can't be ignored are the countries and organizations and people in the region who want to wipe Israel off the map. It's easy to say "too hawkish" when Mexico and Canada aren't shooting rockets into our most populous cities. (Yes, the majority of the rockets are being shot down but we still wouldn't react well to this.) When Mexico and canada aren't randomly blowing up buses, restaurants, calling for the complete destruction of the US of A. (When Iranians say this from Iran, it's very different.) Israel not only has the right to defend it self, it also has the right to security. And, I'd argue, that is why Israel is more hawkish. For self-preservation. If America was the size of New Jersey and we were surrounded by countries that wanted to completely wipe us off the map, I think we'd be pretty hawkish.

[Farfromgeneva]

True (and true) Israel doesn't equal Likud. But they have been driving the past 20 years. There are a lot of Israelis who see the problem and are bothered deeply by it, but they are a minority. Even what passes for liberal in Israel seems to have settled into an "I don't want to think about it" coma.

What can't be ignored are the countries and organizations and people in the region who want to wipe Israel off the map. It's easy to say "too hawkish" when Mexico and Canada aren't shooting rockets into our most populous cities. (Yes, the majority of the rockets are being shot down but we still wouldn't react well to this.) When Mexico and canada aren't randomly blowing up buses, restaurants, calling for the complete destruction of the US of A. (When Iranians say this from Iran, it's very different.) Israel not only has the right to defend it self, it also has the right to security. And, I'd argue, that is why Israel is more hawkish. For self-preservation. If America was the size of New Jersey and we were surrounded by countries that wanted to completely wipe us off the map, I think we'd be pretty hawkish.

That’s what I was trying to suggest originally but you articulated it better than this knucklehead (pointing to myself) tried to previously.

Oh and by the way there’s a near consensus that NJ and Staten Island can go (along with Mississippi).

[Gretchen]

Satmar Chasidim aren't extremists. Satmar Chasidim are extremists with relation to this issue. They don't want there to be a State of Israel. If this comes to fruition, millions of Jews will die. for a Chasidic Jew, that's a pretty extreme perspective. Every religious Jew prays every morning. Prays for Peace. Including the satmars. but the satmars are unique, extreme within the jewish world with relation to their stance about israel and what that stance entails.

~ Satmar Chasidim aren't extremists. Satmar Chasidim are extremists with relation to this issue ~


OK. Good of you to clarify.



~ {Satmars} don't want there to be a State of Israel ~

This is because they adhere to the Bible's teaching which is perfectly clear on the issue ~ only the Messiah can reestablish Israel with one example being Deut 30:1-3. There are about another dozen other verses which teach the same and that the Messiah would reestablish without shedding a drop of blood. They are simply obeying the Law as it is taught in their Holy Book.

How they interpret their book. Many, most Jews believe that through their actions, they can bring the Messiah. And those actions sometimes involve battles, involve war. The Jews from day one have fought in many, many wars. and those wars involved israel. the satmars are unique in their perspective (as religious jews). the vast majority of religious jews stand by israel.

[Farfromgeneva]

I will add that in running around N NJ last two weeks (along w Eastern PA) I forgot what good italian food is like having moved from NY to Atlanta 11yrs ago now (damn it is weird to think over a decade in the south..). Had a terrific meal at a place with some bank guys in woodbridge NJ, even a good meal in Hamilton NJ which is practically Pennsy west. Another good one in a restaurant near the water in Res Bank.

Once back in the day dealt with a CEO of a bank in a super Hasidic Jersey town called Jackson, NJ. Rural area tucked in middle of state, had met him at some of my firms investor conferences but first time I went to his bank by cornfields either on my way to or from Cranbury en route to Tom river. Bank sold maybe 2015 or so but I recall the Jewish CEO pulling a seinfeld dentist routine and talking about how “relationship banking doesn’t exist here it’s all transactional” or “I may as well use brokered CDs given how much the customers bust me for pennies on their deposits” (these are relevant to running a bank because they model deposits as long term average life liabilities even though they may be demand over night legally due to historical “stickiness” And because banking is a mark to model business) etc and this guys last name was Schutzer to bring it back to Jewish/Israel topic.

[jhu72]

True (and true) Israel doesn't equal Likud. But they have been driving the past 20 years. There are a lot of Israelis who see the problem and are bothered deeply by it, but they are a minority. Even what passes for liberal in Israel seems to have settled into an "I don't want to think about it" coma.

What can't be ignored are the countries and organizations and people in the region who want to wipe Israel off the map. It's easy to say "too hawkish" when Mexico and Canada aren't shooting rockets into our most populous cities. (Yes, the majority of the rockets are being shot down but we still wouldn't react well to this.) When Mexico and canada aren't randomly blowing up buses, restaurants, calling for the complete destruction of the US of A. (When Iranians say this from Iran, it's very different.) Israel not only has the right to defend it self, it also has the right to security. And, I'd argue, that is why Israel is more hawkish. For self-preservation. If America was the size of New Jersey and we were surrounded by countries that wanted to completely wipe us off the map, I think we'd be pretty hawkish.

... in my opinion, it is just cheap talk on the part of those nations. Playing to their own nut job constituents (minorities). I am sure this concern is what drives at least in part the "liberal coma". What nations have the will and ability to take on Israel in the region? I only count one (Iran), and even them, I question their will to trade blows. In any case, constantly hammering the Palestinians gains them nothing in terms of security. What it gains them, the real motive, is land!

[Matnum PI]

What nations have the will and ability to take on Israel in the region? I only count one (Iran), and even them, I question their will to trade blows. In any case, constantly hammering the Palestinians gains them nothing in terms of security. What it gains them, the real motive, is land!

And win, few to none. But numerous countries, including Palestine, and numerous organizations, including Hamas, are willing to lose as long as Jews die in the process. Israel does want land. But not land for land. Land for security. Hamas/Palestine is firing rockets from residential areas. As a result, what can teh Israelis do? Nothing? they need to fire back to stop these rockets (as we would do the same) and... They're forced to fire into residential areas. And, for obvious reasons, civilians, including children, die. it's awful. but what are the Israelis supposed to do? This has been a tactic ofr Hamas/Palestine for decades. And, in terms of PR, it works. "The Israelis are killing Palestinian children!" But... What is Israel supposed to do? And... Where is the outrage that Hamas/Palestine is firing rockets from residential areas knowing full well that how this will end?

[Brooklyn]

How they interpret their book. Many, most Jews believe that through their actions, they can bring the Messiah. And those actions sometimes involve battles, involve war. The Jews from day one have fought in many, many wars. and those wars involved israel. the satmars are unique in their perspective (as religious jews). the vast majority of religious jews stand by israel.

There are denominational conflicts over biblical usage and this includes all manner of Abrahamic adherents. However, this branch of Charedim can at least point to references in the book to justify their interpretation. Nobody that I know of has ever successfully refuted them.

[Gretchen]

There are denominational conflicts over biblical usage and this includes all manner of Abrahamic adherents. However, this branch of Charedim can at least point to references in the book to justify their interpretation. Nobody that I know of has ever successfully refuted them.

You can't refute how someone interprets a book. If I read the bible and think "I'm the messiah!", who can refute it. I'm 100% wrong. But no one can convince me otherwise. (For the record, I don't think that i am the messiah.)

[Brooklyn]

Don’t feel like it so feel free to claim I’m lying and parade around thinking you won. Run as many victory laps as your heart desires. You were called out on your posts or Santars and immediately reacted to the use of the term extremist by someone who as as or more familiar with their sub category of their religion after dropping a post to imply many Jews don’t want Israel to be a state which is duplicitous a bit and yet to address his point that they’ve been a. Consistent small minority of Jews since the formation not evolving over time.

Not that important to me. How about you inquire with a few of the middle types here, MD, TLD and a few others to see if I’m crazy. The use of right winger incessantly is itself, as I would be hard pressed to believe even if you told me that you don’t mean it in a pejorative sense as you toss it like a bomb all the time.

But go ahead and act like you won because I won’t waste time making you happy.

We'll wait for you to name those extremists.

One thing's for sure - they aren't Santars as those are space aliens, not biblically adhering Jews.


Santar:





"The Santars are an alien race that inhabit the planet Santar. Likan Conquerors of the Future"

https://superfriends.fandom.com/wiki/Santars

[Brooklyn]

There are denominational conflicts over biblical usage and this includes all manner of Abrahamic adherents. However, this branch of Charedim can at least point to references in the book to justify their interpretation. Nobody that I know of has ever successfully refuted them.

You can't refute how someone interprets a book. If I read the bible and think "I'm the messiah!", who can refute it. I'm 100% wrong. But no one can convince me otherwise. (For the record, I don't think that i am the messiah.)

Same here ~ am not Messiah or "Santar".

[Farfromgeneva]

Don’t feel like it so feel free to claim I’m lying and parade around thinking you won. Run as many victory laps as your heart desires. You were called out on your posts or Santars and immediately reacted to the use of the term extremist by someone who as as or more familiar with their sub category of their religion after dropping a post to imply many Jews don’t want Israel to be a state which is duplicitous a bit and yet to address his point that they’ve been a. Consistent small minority of Jews since the formation not evolving over time.

Not that important to me. How about you inquire with a few of the middle types here, MD, TLD and a few others to see if I’m crazy. The use of right winger incessantly is itself, as I would be hard pressed to believe even if you told me that you don’t mean it in a pejorative sense as you toss it like a bomb all the time.

But go ahead and act like you won because I won’t waste time making you happy.

We'll wait for you to name those extremists.

One thing's for sure - they aren't Santars as those are space aliens, not biblically adhering Jews.


Santar:





"The Santars are an alien race that inhabit the planet Santar. Likan Conquerors of the Future"

https://superfriends.fandom.com/wiki/Santars

At This point everyone should know I’m posting form phone I don’t keep this trash on my pc and my fat thumbs are all over the pace combined with a limited spellcheck function.

Except the focus on ladies. I love and respect them but rarely get the misspelling when being a degenerate about all the beautiful women in the world. And like ODB states, all the ugly ones too!

[Farfromgeneva]

There are denominational conflicts over biblical usage and this includes all manner of Abrahamic adherents. However, this branch of Charedim can at least point to references in the book to justify their interpretation. Nobody that I know of has ever successfully refuted them.

You can't refute how someone interprets a book. If I read the bible and think "I'm the messiah!", who can refute it. I'm 100% wrong. But no one can convince me otherwise. (For the record, I don't think that i am the messiah.)

Right this presented as evidence that the State of Israel is wrong is specious at best. And just thrown up with no context as to their background which took someone else to explain, isn’t far off what a Pete Brown does just perhaps with somehow a better intent.

Then add in this poster would never allow someone to use the Bible for interpretation of something he rejected without jumping all over it as being a “book of fiction” to some other argument is a bit questionable.

[PizzaSnake]

Satmar Chasidim aren't extremists. Satmar Chasidim are extremists with relation to this issue. They don't want there to be a State of Israel. If this comes to fruition, millions of Jews will die. for a Chasidic Jew, that's a pretty extreme perspective. Every religious Jew prays every morning. Prays for Peace. Including the satmars. but the satmars are unique, extreme within the jewish world with relation to their stance about israel and what that stance entails.

~ Satmar Chasidim aren't extremists. Satmar Chasidim are extremists with relation to this issue ~


OK. Good of you to clarify.



~ {Satmars} don't want there to be a State of Israel ~

This is because they adhere to the Bible's teaching which is perfectly clear on the issue ~ only the Messiah can reestablish Israel with one example being Deut 30:1-3. There are about another dozen other verses which teach the same and that the Messiah would reestablish without shedding a drop of blood. They are simply obeying the Law as it is taught in their Holy Book.

How they interpret their book. Many, most Jews believe that through their actions, they can bring the Messiah. And those actions sometimes involve battles, involve war. The Jews from day one have fought in many, many wars. and those wars involved israel. the satmars are unique in their perspective (as religious jews). the vast majority of religious jews stand by israel.

“How they interpret their book. Many, most Jews believe that through their actions, they can bring the Messiah.”

Religion and politics don’t mix well. Keep the zealots from positions of temporal power. From my “interpretation” that was precisely the point of the separation clause.

As a nation we need to stay away from religious conflicts —intractable and deadly.

[jhu72]

What nations have the will and ability to take on Israel in the region? I only count one (Iran), and even them, I question their will to trade blows. In any case, constantly hammering the Palestinians gains them nothing in terms of security. What it gains them, the real motive, is land!

And win, few to none. But numerous countries, including Palestine, and numerous organizations, including Hamas, are willing to lose as long as Jews die in the process. Israel does want land. But not land for land. Land for security. Hamas/Palestine is firing rockets from residential areas. As a result, what can teh Israelis do? Nothing? they need to fire back to stop these rockets (as we would do the same) and... They're forced to fire into residential areas. And, for obvious reasons, civilians, including children, die. it's awful. but what are the Israelis supposed to do? This has been a tactic ofr Hamas/Palestine for decades. And, in terms of PR, it works. "The Israelis are killing Palestinian children!" But... What is Israel supposed to do? And... Where is the outrage that Hamas/Palestine is firing rockets from residential areas knowing full well that how this will end?

The land they are currently taking has nothing to do with security. It's land for land's sake.

I really question that today, numerous countries are willing to lose just to kill a few Jews. Hamas and the Palestinians use it as a tactic, only because they have nothing else. As I said, Israel's real problem is internal, not an external state actor threat.

The problem is Hamas (and a few non-Hamas Palestinians). I really don't think trading rocket fire with them is a very effect means of engaging against Hamas. They need to separate Hamas from the Palestinians generally and kill Hamas. I understand that is always difficult, but it can't be done with rocket fire and bombs. It takes feet on the ground and intelligence. I suspect the intelligence already exists. A costly operation in terms of men and blood. What the Israeli government is doing today is basically an ineffective "show" for citizen consumption.

[Matnum PI]

As a nation we need to stay away from religious conflicts —intractable and deadly.

What's unique about Judaism is that it's a religion as well as a nation. As evidenced by the large number of non-religious Jews. Including in Israel.

[Matnum PI]

The problem is Hamas (and a few non-Hamas Palestinians). I really don't think trading rocket fire with them is a very effect means of engaging against Hamas. They need to separate Hamas from the Palestinians generally and kill Hamas. I understand that is always difficult, but it can't be done with rocket fire and bombs. It takes feet on the ground and intelligence. I suspect the intelligence already exists. A costly operation in terms of men and blood. What the Israeli government is doing today is basically an ineffective "show" for citizen consumption.

They need to stop the rocket fire. They have the dome and... they need to stop the rocket fire. In terms of feet on the ground and using intelligence, c'mon JHU. Israel does tons of work with spies and feet on the ground, intelligence work. Mossad is no joke. their work is legendary. they do tons of feet on the ground work and, right now... They need to stop the rockets.

[PizzaSnake]

The problem is Hamas (and a few non-Hamas Palestinians). I really don't think trading rocket fire with them is a very effect means of engaging against Hamas. They need to separate Hamas from the Palestinians generally and kill Hamas. I understand that is always difficult, but it can't be done with rocket fire and bombs. It takes feet on the ground and intelligence. I suspect the intelligence already exists. A costly operation in terms of men and blood. What the Israeli government is doing today is basically an ineffective "show" for citizen consumption.

They need to stop the rocket fire. They have the dome and... they need to stop the rocket fire. In terms of feet on the ground and using intelligence, c'mon JHU. Israel does tons of work with spies and feet on the ground, intelligence work. Mossad is no joke. their work is legendary. they do tons of feet on the ground work and, right now... They need to stop the rockets.

Israel is reaping the whirlwind the’ve sown.