Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Brooklyn]

not putting them down. just saying they aren't a good example to use.

Ok. But please don't call them "extremists".

I have known Satmars who begin each and every single day with prayers for world peace and universal tolerance. To call these prayerful people "extremist" is utterly shocking and without justification.

[Farfromgeneva]

FarFromGeneva,

I don’t know the answer

I do and it's the same solution I've mentioned several times before, especially in the old LP forum: the one state solution. Had this been employed Israel and much of the Middle East would have been at peace for over half a century. There would not have been a 9/11 or an imperialistic war on Iraq or Afghanistan and the military budget wastage would have been reduced by trillions.

Sounds nice but I personally think you would be insane if you believed that would end well. And I wonder in the context of 1968 how that would’ve worked.

[Farfromgeneva]

FarFromGeneva,

I don’t know the answer

I do and it's the same solution I've mentioned several times before, especially in the old LP forum: the one state solution. Had this been employed Israel and much of the Middle East would have been at peace for over half a century. There would not have been a 9/11 or an imperialistic war on Iraq or Afghanistan and the military budget wastage would have been reduced by trillions.

Ok. I think it’s insane to believe either in 1968 or today if implemented so easily a you portray that it would end any better. Maybe worth a shot but no where as clean as you present it.

[Brooklyn]

FarFromGeneva,

I don’t know the answer

I do and it's the same solution I've mentioned several times before, especially in the old LP forum: the one state solution. Had this been employed Israel and much of the Middle East would have been at peace for over half a century. There would not have been a 9/11 or an imperialistic war on Iraq or Afghanistan and the military budget wastage would have been reduced by trillions.

Sounds nice but I think you are instance of you believe that would end well.

Translate, please.

[Farfromgeneva]

JEWISH MAN ASHAMED OF ISRAEL ACTIONS







"We are with you!"

This is like a hardcore republican trotting out Milo Yiannopolous. Evidentiary value slim to none. Or checking the female box by dropping unprincipled Stefanik in the speaker seat.

[Brooklyn]

FarFromGeneva,

I don’t know the answer

I do and it's the same solution I've mentioned several times before, especially in the old LP forum: the one state solution. Had this been employed Israel and much of the Middle East would have been at peace for over half a century. There would not have been a 9/11 or an imperialistic war on Iraq or Afghanistan and the military budget wastage would have been reduced by trillions.

Ok. I think it’s insane to believe either in 1968 or today if implemented so easily a you portray that it would end any better. Maybe worth a shot but no where as clean as you present it.

A lot of "good" it did to ignore that solution.

[Farfromgeneva]

FarFromGeneva,

I don’t know the answer

I do and it's the same solution I've mentioned several times before, especially in the old LP forum: the one state solution. Had this been employed Israel and much of the Middle East would have been at peace for over half a century. There would not have been a 9/11 or an imperialistic war on Iraq or Afghanistan and the military budget wastage would have been reduced by trillions.

Ok. I think it’s insane to believe either in 1968 or today if implemented so easily a you portray that it would end any better. Maybe worth a shot but no where as clean as you present it.

A lot of "good" it did to ignore that solution.

But you are still pounding the table with confidence while presenting a counter factual.

[Farfromgeneva]

FarFromGeneva,

I don’t know the answer

I do and it's the same solution I've mentioned several times before, especially in the old LP forum: the one state solution. Had this been employed Israel and much of the Middle East would have been at peace for over half a century. There would not have been a 9/11 or an imperialistic war on Iraq or Afghanistan and the military budget wastage would have been reduced by trillions.

Sounds nice but I think you are instance of you believe that would end well.

Translate, please.

Phone sometimes things get posted before I’m done accidentally and for some reason I can’t delete some incomplete posts or even have to double post. It’s a latency issue with the tech here I think but sorry

[Typical Lax Dad]

[EDITED]

Glad i am not a jew depending on some of you dumbass mother effing liberals to defend my nation. This cradle and shoot signing off, the brain damaged stupid left has taken over this forum. Have a wonderful time. I'm sticking to the HS lax forum from now on. This forum use to be fun and educational. Like so much else in America you dumb ass liberals have destroyed it.

It was fun while it lasted. It ain't fun or educational anymore.

Good night Mrs Calabash... where ever you are.

Bye Felicia.

Hitting a guy on the way out, c'mon now TLD that's a sad move. You are one of the biggest reasons he's leaving the politics thread. Nobody likes banging their head against the wall a million times only to have you stubbornly repeat the same subtle attempts at deflection with dry humor. You have more to offer than that and you know it. It's a shame, somewhere along the line you lost it, don't know what caused it.

JoeMauer89!

I usually hit ‘em with this:



Cradleandshoot turned “candy *ss” on us! After years of chest pounding and huffing and puffing that “jackwagon” of a grown man “turns tail”...

[Gretchen]

not putting them down. just saying they aren't a good example to use.

Ok. But please don't call them "extremists".

I have known Satmars who begin each and every single day with prayers for world peace and universal tolerance. To call these prayerful people "extremist" is utterly shocking and without justification.

Satmar Chasidim aren't extremists. Satmar Chasidim are extremists with relation to this issue. They don't want there to be a State of Israel. If this comes to fruition, millions of Jews will die. for a Chasidic Jew, that's a pretty extreme perspective. Every religious Jew prays every morning. Prays for Peace. Including the satmars. but the satmars are unique, extreme within the jewish world with relation to their stance about israel and what that stance entails.

[Farfromgeneva]

JEWISH MAN ASHAMED OF ISRAEL ACTIONS

This is small group of chasidim who have been opposed to the establishment of the State of Israel since Day One. vehemently. it's a video of an extremist Jew, not "a jewish man".

Yes. And a pretty good example of our proclivity to use extremists to make a point. All it does is divide us more, without a sliver of discussion of the complicated underlying issues.

If that's the case then forum right wingers should never defend the extremist Republicans and their hero Trump. Satmars are among the most peaceful and charitable people I have ever known. By contrast, the Republicans today among the most hate filled, warmongering, and intolerant.

Putting down Satmars and other peace loving people is without any justification. Putting down hate filled Republicans is justified for the reasons you see on your nightly tv news.

Well if we are being honest you act here as an advocate. The world needs those but rarely is consensus 100% on the side of the advocate. It would be hypocritical to complain about the other side as you and dislaxxic use incendiary extreme examples in posts frequently. I used to not like it but eventually figured out that was your role here and adapted my framework to that. World needs advocates. They also need moderate people who can manage the fallout from advocacy.

And it’s still a what about. We all do some of this but I’d expect the more thoughtful folks to lash out less and engage in discourse more (outside of WTA, NBA, women’s stretching all of which are excellent topics to discuss and I welcome extreme, but legal photo support for two of those three topics).

[Brooklyn]

JEWISH MAN ASHAMED OF ISRAEL ACTIONS







"We are with you!"

This is like a hardcore republican trotting out Milo Yiannopolous. Evidentiary value slim to none. Or checking the female box by dropping unprincipled Stefanik in the speaker seat.

Not sure what you mean since Milo Yiannopoulos is a far right radical who supposedly renounced the gay lifestyle because it did not suit his wealthy elitist patrons from the radical far right and who remains steadfast in his hate and ultra right radicalism.

[Farfromgeneva]

You believe he renounced it? Ever hear of Lady G?

[Brooklyn]

Satmar Chasidim aren't extremists. Satmar Chasidim are extremists with relation to this issue. They don't want there to be a State of Israel. If this comes to fruition, millions of Jews will die. for a Chasidic Jew, that's a pretty extreme perspective. Every religious Jew prays every morning. Prays for Peace. Including the satmars. but the satmars are unique, extreme within the jewish world with relation to their stance about israel and what that stance entails.

~ Satmar Chasidim aren't extremists. Satmar Chasidim are extremists with relation to this issue ~


OK. Good of you to clarify.



~ {Satmars} don't want there to be a State of Israel ~

This is because they adhere to the Bible's teaching which is perfectly clear on the issue ~ only the Messiah can reestablish Israel with one example being Deut 30:1-3. There are about another dozen other verses which teach the same and that the Messiah would reestablish without shedding a drop of blood. They are simply obeying the Law as it is taught in their Holy Book.

[Farfromgeneva]

So now we are in on literal use of the Bible?

[Brooklyn]

Well if we are being honest you act here as an advocate. The world needs those but rarely is consensus 100% on the side of the advocate. It would be hypocritical to complain about the other side as you and dislaxxic use incendiary extreme examples in posts frequently. I used to not like it but eventually figured out that was your role here and adapted my framework to that. World needs advocates. They also need moderate people who can manage the fallout from advocacy.

And it’s still a what about. We all do some of this but I’d expect the more thoughtful folks to lash out less and engage in discourse more (outside of WTA, NBA, women’s stretching all of which are excellent topics to discuss and I welcome extreme, but legal photo support for two of those three topics).

~ incendiary extreme examples ~


Name them.

[Brooklyn]

So now we are in on literal use of the Bible?

using the Bible in vain:



https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/f ... ect/458702



his thugs kicked peaceful protesters out the church grounds in order to make this phony pose

[Farfromgeneva]

Well if we are being honest you act here as an advocate. The world needs those but rarely is consensus 100% on the side of the advocate. It would be hypocritical to complain about the other side as you and dislaxxic use incendiary extreme examples in posts frequently. I used to not like it but eventually figured out that was your role here and adapted my framework to that. World needs advocates. They also need moderate people who can manage the fallout from advocacy.

And it’s still a what about. We all do some of this but I’d expect the more thoughtful folks to lash out less and engage in discourse more (outside of WTA, NBA, women’s stretching all of which are excellent topics to discuss and I welcome extreme, but legal photo support for two of those three topics).

~ incendiary extreme examples ~


Name them.

Don’t feel like it so feel free to claim I’m lying and parade around thinking you won. Run as many victory laps as your heart desires. You were called out on your posts or Santars and immediately reacted to the use of the term extremist by someone who as as or more familiar with their sub category of their religion after dropping a post to imply many Jews don’t want Israel to be a state which is duplicitous a bit and yet to address his point that they’ve been a. Consistent small minority of Jews since the formation not evolving over time.

Not that important to me. How about you inquire with a few of the middle types here, MD, TLD and a few others to see if I’m crazy. The use of right winger incessantly is itself, as I would be hard pressed to believe even if you told me that you don’t mean it in a pejorative sense as you toss it like a bomb all the time.

But go ahead and act like you won because I won’t waste time making you happy.

[Farfromgeneva]

So now we are in on literal use of the Bible?

using the Bible in vain:



https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/f ... ect/458702



his thugs kicked peaceful protesters out the church grounds in order to make this phony pose

So you’re doing the whattabout now?

[jhu72]

I was with you previously about time being up so to speak on us protecting them but I still think it’s important to keep in mind this is a group that’s been hated by almost everyone else at one point or another and driven from their homes repeatedly. Doesn’t excuse the Netenyahus of the world being overly aggressive but I still think it needs to be considered in the context of however much we’ve protected them that their entire existence their has been under constant existential threat for each and every day of those 50 odd years. Just like some good nature folks have lost it with constant poor behavior here and backslid into said persons gutter, it’s understandable that there’s a aggressiveness to Israelis conditioned over their life at risk.

... even given the so called existential threats from some problematic Arabs, I really question how real that is. I look at it, they seem more than capable of protecting themselves. Fewer and fewer Arab states have any interest in tangling with them. They are certainly not making themselves safer by constantly beating up the Palestinians. The more we allow them to play the game "poor Israel, everybody hates us" the more emboldened they become. They have become more aggressive in the past 4 years thanks to Trump's pandering.

If they feel they need us so much, then we should be able to drive them to a compromise with the Palestinians. They are less inclined to compromise today than anytime since the early 70s. We have never pressed them, to my mind. In the end we always give in to them and their paranoia, to our detriment.

Israel has a problem of demographics. Slightly less than 7 million Jews live in Israel. Gaza and the West Bank contain 4.5 - 5.0 million Arabs -- 2 to 2.5 million in each area. The Arab population is growing faster. Beating up on the Palestinians constantly solves no problem. Israel's current but unspoken solution being driven by the Likud is genocide. Israel has no viable solution, since rejecting the two state solution. Israel's problem is not external - it is internal, and they are making it worse.

This may be true. But if they once lived with then umbrella of us don’t we have some responsibility to them and rest of the world which might be force a two state solution but at a min if we walk it has to be clearly communicated. And at this point if fear they’d be worked out super fast if the implicit support went away especially not well communicated. Population argument is less compelling bc over time that ebbs and flows for all nations, China will be slowing down, Malthusian principle demands it.

But also bigger picture in geopolitics: would you apply the same logic universally which is that is we take a side and support someone with our resources does that give us a universal right to tell them how to behave as a sovereign entity? Or do you think this would be a unique situation where it would be consistent to help another country but eh hands off on the sovereign decisions that they make?

I don’t like the way leadership has behaved and something has to change but I don’t know that saying “f it you guys have been too much of a holes for too long you’re on your own now” is a great path.

My sister converted 20yrs ago and if you know about concerts you know they are some of the most hardcore Jews. Brother in law born Jewish but nominal until he got serious when his wife knew 100x more about the religion than he did but they are hippies, go to a synagogue In Berkeley where they have a scent free section and if you’re feeling good could stand up and twinkle your hands (my BILs brother ran Ropes Gray and Harvard/Yale degrees and was horrified by the scene it was fun to watch at my nephews barmitsvah), brother in law works at Berkeley and my sister was a stage director first ten or so years of adult life (mostly at ART in Boston and Berkeley Rep in Cali if any theater folks are floating around, she did a few summers of his cool thing called the San Francisco Mine Troop that was popular there doing free parking shows for years, met Linda perry as a kid at one my sister did). Seriously, they may actually side with the Palestinian as based on their mindset but I know my brother in law was terrorized as a kid growing up in Lexington MA and while he’s fine I know he’s impacted by that today so imagine what it’s like over in the West Bank for Jews.

I don’t know the answer and don’t like being a protector of some country, any country. Certainly not for our own geopolitical purposes, but I don’t see how we can walk and claim we ever cared.

The family I married into is Jewish. The grandparents on both sides were the first generation to be born in this country. Family history is filled with aunt and uncle and cousin so and so who where "final solution-ed" by the Nazi's. Lots of graves in Holland and Poland. To the extent that I spend time with family, I spend far more time with my wife's than my own family. Inside this family we have only one really hardcore "Israel can do no wrong" individual. She is a nice enough person, but pretty much everyone's least favorite relative. The rest of the family including her children are pretty questioning of Israel's behavior. They understand the disgusting level of hypocrisy of Israel's current position.

I believe in being fair to the Israelis, they have suffered, they have a right to security, but not at the cost of the security of the masses of Palestinian's. The Israeli right wing has knifed the US and the West in the back by walking away from the 2 state solution, with the blessing and help of Trump. The only one state solution is one in which ultimately the Palestinians come to dominate, unless we allow Israel's right wing one state solution. We all know the Israelis aren't going to settle on the first case one state solution. The world will get the right wing's alternative one state solution.

Give the Israelis notice, if they don't change, we will dissolve the special relationship. We have already spilled more than enough American blood because they won't negotiate. They are more than capable of taking care of themselves. They have made all the choices.

I really don't expect this to happen, because Biden is too old school, but the day is coming.