2021 Tournament

[Matnum PI]

It would mirror HS State Championships. If you wanna be state champ, you need to be district champ. If you wanna be national champ, you need to be Conference champ.

[DeepPocket]

In the HS state championships (public) are there many situations where there are two or more nationally ranked top 20 teams in the same “section” (NY term, but whatever the equivalent groupings are for each state)?

If not, it might not be the best format to emulate.

[MrLax2U]

I agree with everything you write and this year's format with 3 Pool C seems ideal. That way there is room for an extra NESCAC, ODAC, C2C etc. upset in any year. Also independents if Salisbury/CNU, for example, go independent or Hobart drops down.

[ergit]

The problem in doing away with at-large bids is that the top 20 teams in the country are found for the most part in four conferences. There are a couple more that might add a team in a given year.
Conference AQ’s are fine but I’d still like to see a Tournament that to some extent rewards coaches who have built up programs over many years, seniors who have helped build a winning culture, and teams that have busted their asses against top flight competition over the full season and found success.
Maybe it’s just me...

[Matnum PI]

In the HS state championships (public) are there many situations where there are two or more nationally ranked top 20 teams in the same “section” (NY term, but whatever the equivalent groupings are for each state)?

If not, it might not be the best format to emulate.

There aren't two nationally ranked teams in all of Georgia or North Carolina or whatever (though sometimes there are). But there most certainly are two state ranked teams in the same section. Happens all the time. The state championship brackets come out and the #3, #7, and #12 teams aren't included (because they lost in the sectional play-offs).

[pcowlax]

I think all this talk is nuts but that’s just me, never going to happen. Watch this year’s tournament, where the top 3-4 teams are just going to steamroll all of these AQs and see if that is the type of tournament you want.

[Laxdds]

I think all this talk is nuts but that’s just me, never going to happen. Watch this year’s tournament, where the top 3-4 teams are just going to steamroll all of these AQs and see if that is the type of tournament you want.

You are correct sir!

[DeepPocket]

There aren't two nationally ranked teams in all of Georgia or North Carolina or whatever (though sometimes there are). But there most certainly are two state ranked teams in the same section. Happens all the time. The state championship brackets come out and the #3, #7, and #12 teams aren't included (because they lost in the sectional play-offs).

Yea. I’m just talking about national rankings. Obviously there are multiple state top 20 teams in the state strong holds.

Of the 31 teams who will be participating, we will be close to 10 of the national top 20 DIII programs are not making a tournament which is supposed to determine the National Champion.

Hypothetically (because I know college conferences don’t revolve around DIII lacrosse), what would prevent a CNU from going independent just to secure a bid every year, rather than try to slay the dragon that is Salisbury?

Prospects of success and making the tournament do play a role in recruiting. Could such a selection format counter some of the leveling of the playing field we’ve seen, by driving the top talent solely to the few powerhouses that we flat out know won’t be affected by these changes?

[ah23]

The NCAA tournament is about finding a national champion. That means finding the best teams...not simply a list of the winners of arbitrary groups of schools organized by geographical proximity and institutional similarity. Punishing teams for playing in good conferences and rewarding teams that gorge themselves on garbage competition all year is the opposite of how sports should work.

Additionally, doing away with at-large bids would be devastating for the D-III game. I cannot understand actively wanting that to happen.

Others have already alluded to this: why play in a competitive conference with multiple contenders and risk never making the tournament when you can just go independent or join/create some walkover conference to guarantee yourself an autobid every year? That's what programs like Cabrini and St. John Fisher already have set up, and that's absolutely what a lot of programs would do if suddenly their only shot at the postseason ran through a perennial juggernaut. Why would CNU stay in the C2C with Salisbury when they could just join the USA South? Why wouldn't York join the Landmark? Why wouldn't Union or St. Lawrence jump to the NEAC or Skyline? Why wouldn't any NESCAC team other than a handful at the top join the Little East or CCC? There are a million examples of this.

I know (hope?) this will never happen, so I'm just blathering on about nothing. But I genuinely cannot believe there would be any appetite for a watered down, predetermined NCAA tournament that objectively does not have the best teams facing each other. I obviously think that conferences (though not all of them) should have AQs. However, there absolutely has to be numerous at-large spots for quality teams that merit inclusion despite playing in the same conference as another top team. A tournament without both York and Stevenson, or RIT and whoever, or Tufts and whoever fails in its task, full stop.

[Dr. Pretorious]

The NCAA tournament is about finding a national champion. That means finding the best teams...not simply a list of the winners of arbitrary groups of schools organized by geographical proximity and institutional similarity. Punishing teams for playing in good conferences and rewarding teams that gorge themselves on garbage competition all year is the opposite of how sports should work.

Additionally, doing away with at-large bids would be devastating for the D-III game. I cannot understand actively wanting that to happen.

Others have already alluded to this: why play in a competitive conference with multiple contenders and risk never making the tournament when you can just go independent or join/create some walkover conference to guarantee yourself an autobid every year? That's what programs like Cabrini and St. John Fisher already have set up, and that's absolutely what a lot of programs would do if suddenly their only shot at the postseason ran through a perennial juggernaut. Why would CNU stay in the C2C with Salisbury when they could just join the USA South? Why wouldn't York join the Landmark? Why wouldn't Union or St. Lawrence jump to the NEAC or Skyline? Why wouldn't any NESCAC team other than a handful at the top join the Little East or CCC? There are a million examples of this.

I know (hope?) this will never happen, so I'm just blathering on about nothing. But I genuinely cannot believe there would be any appetite for a watered down, predetermined NCAA tournament that objectively does not have the best teams facing each other. I obviously think that conferences (though not all of them) should have AQs. However, there absolutely has to be numerous at-large spots for quality teams that merit inclusion despite playing in the same conference as another top team. A tournament without both York and Stevenson, or RIT and whoever, or Tufts and whoever fails in its task, full stop.

Well said. +1

[Dr. Pretorious]

There aren't two nationally ranked teams in all of Georgia or North Carolina or whatever (though sometimes there are). But there most certainly are two state ranked teams in the same section. Happens all the time. The state championship brackets come out and the #3, #7, and #12 teams aren't included (because they lost in the sectional play-offs).

Yea. I’m just talking about national rankings. Obviously there are multiple state top 20 teams in the state strong holds.

Of the 31 teams who will be participating, we will be close to 10 of the national top 20 DIII programs are not making a tournament which is supposed to determine the National Champion.

Hypothetically (because I know college conferences don’t revolve around DIII lacrosse), what would prevent a CNU from going independent just to secure a bid every year, rather than try to slay the dragon that is Salisbury?

Prospects of success and making the tournament do play a role in recruiting. Could such a selection format counter some of the leveling of the playing field we’ve seen, by driving the top talent solely to the few powerhouses that we flat out know won’t be affected by these changes?

Agreed. +1

[Downhill Dodger]

First and Second Round site locations announced
7 sites with 4 teams, one site with 3 teams

Illinois Wesleyan
Stevenson
Lynchburg
Centre

Winner of Empire 8
Franklin and Marshall
Cabrini
Stockton

[DeepPocket]

First and Second Round site locations announced
7 sites with 4 teams, one site with 3 teams

Illinois Wesleyan
Stevenson
Lynchburg
Centre

Winner of Empire 8
Franklin and Marshall
Cabrini
Stockton

So glad some of these conferences, who’s fear for their lives restricted them to not a single OOC opponent visiting campus, can now, just days later, host 3-4 simultaneously.

I know, I know. “It’s a very fluid situation”. Shame there couldn’t be any fluidity as things dynamically changed throughout the regular season.

[SouthernLaxGenius]

We all know the AQ is here to stay, across the landscape of Division III, in a number of sports and without Pool B and especially Pool C (in lacrosse) the list of underrepresented teams that we would b*tch about on this forum would probably be as long as the Johns Hopkins thread year in and year out.

[SouthernLaxGenius]

Selections will be tomorrow.

Other than the AQ's, if Colorado College has a lock on the only Pool B slot then (IMO), the 3 Pool C bids would look like:

Pool C

1-Christopher Newport
2- Stevenson
(both should get in)

3-Hampden Sydney ---> Washington and Lee---> St. Lawrence/OWU ---> Williams

Thoughts?

[Unknown Participant]

Selections will be tomorrow.

Other than the AQ's, if Colorado College has a lock on the only Pool B slot then (IMO), the 3 Pool C bids would look like:

Pool C

1-Christopher Newport
2- Stevenson
(both should get in)

3-Hampden Sydney ---> Washington and Lee---> St. Lawrence/OWU ---> Williams

Thoughts?

Stevenson out after tonight's fiasco, and by the same measure, Williams in. I had Stevenson ranked pretty high, and tonight was so bad I'm wondering if there was a disciplinary event that sucked the life out of the team. Agree with CNU. St Lawrence a hard no. No opinion on the others except that I think Williams is better (and I really hate Williams).

[ergit]

Selections will be tomorrow.

Other than the AQ's, if Colorado College has a lock on the only Pool B slot then (IMO), the 3 Pool C bids would look like:

Pool C

1-Christopher Newport
2- Stevenson
(both should get in)

3-Hampden Sydney ---> Washington and Lee---> St. Lawrence/OWU ---> Williams

Thoughts?

CNU - yes
Stevenson - definite no
ODAC/ Centennial team - quite possibly/ likely
St. Lawrence - definite no (Union would be more deserving, but no to them too)
Williams - I doubt it. Definitely a good team but didn’t get enough games in compared to some other good teams that got in a much fuller and challenging schedule

[Unknown Participant]

Selections will be tomorrow.

Other than the AQ's, if Colorado College has a lock on the only Pool B slot then (IMO), the 3 Pool C bids would look like:

Pool C

1-Christopher Newport
2- Stevenson
(both should get in)

3-Hampden Sydney ---> Washington and Lee---> St. Lawrence/OWU ---> Williams

Thoughts?

CNU - yes
Stevenson - definite no
ODAC/ Centennial team - quite possibly/ likely
St. Lawrence - definite no (Union would be more deserving, but no to them too)
Williams - I doubt it. Definitely a good team but didn’t get enough games in compared to some other good teams that got in a much fuller and challenging schedule

Williams was beating Tufts in the 3rd with a great game plan, execution and goalie play. There aren't too many DIII teams out there with a more challenging schedule than 4 Nescac teams and Tufts for the championship imo.

[richard]

Based on the eye test. SLU and W&L should have no shot. Stevenson looked like
I thought they would look. How they beat Stevens and York earlier who knows?
Williams is a good team but their schedule gets in the way.
Hampden Sidney is as good as CNU and both have similar records but the head to head and the Lynchburg win puts CNU in.
I have no opinion on OWU.

Either which way the final four should be from Salisbury, York, Lynchburg, RIT and Tufts. No surprise there. They are head and shoulders above the rest

[SouthernLaxGenius]

Appreciate the feedback, but let us not forget the NCAA and the "eye test" doesn't really matter to them.

A win is a win (vs region or regionally ranked opponent) as you can win 15-14 or 25-0 the win (and loss) still count the same for their criteria in regards to picking teams. Margin of victory or eye test do not come into play (from years past)