Progressive Ideology

[laxman3221]

There is no $3b to spend. It doesn't exist. It's not sitting in a bank to hire teachers. It's in fantasy land with AOC.

You're right. So why are we giving money that we don't have to Amazon? Get it? Government services cost money.

We had this same inane conversation during the Carrier handouts in Indiana. I had to break down the entire State into two businesses before the board understood how math works for government services. So here we go again.

NYC has one business (Business A), and the government set the rate to cover the cost of all government services (roads, schools, cops, health dept., courts, fire dept.etc) at $100 per year.

Business B comes in and wants a special deal. They don't want to pay taxes. So the pols make it so. So now the city has to provide roads, schools, cops, health dept., courts, fire, etc. for Business A and Business B. That costs, you guessed it, $200.

So where do you (and anyone who thinks Amazon's giveaway was a swell idea) think the city is going to come up with the $100 to pay for the added roads, schools, cops, health dept., courts, fire dept.etc ?

Take your time.


Now while you're thinking about this, what Cortez is saying is that, staying with this example, if pols think it's a swell idea to give Business B $100 in government services for free, we might as well instead, take out a $100 loan and fix up the city and wind up with assets as a result of that spending.

She's right. The math is right.


The ONLY way my math is wrong is if you assume the government doesn't need the money from business B to pay for roads, schools, cops, health dept., courts, fire dept.etc. And if this is the case, what the hell are you doing taxing Business A?

with the $900 they collect on other taxes collected that the business generates for the city. NYC and state predicted a 9 to 1 return on their incentive. Probably overstated so lets say 3 to 1...with the #300 they collected.

[cradleandshoot]

In addition to your analogy a Fan... a chitload of business have abandoned NYS in droves because of unsustainable tax rates for their companies. As you well know Gov. Cuomo has established certain "tax free zones" in an attempt to coerce new business into this state. It becomes quite the conundrum. You need business to pay taxes to support your state but the only way you can bring in new companies is to give them tax breaks. You find yourself chasing your tail and the same underlying problem is never addressed... the state is spending too much damn money on stuff they can't afford. Not to forget to mention those "unfunded mandates" handed down to counties to pay for all the goodies the state wants the counties to provide. Where does that money come from? All you have to do is look at your property tax bill to find the answer.

Where the flip is the applause emoji !!! Yes!!!

And if you haven't guessed yet, my brother and I are the guys "where all that money comes from". We pay full freight. No deals. No breaks. No incentives. Just shut up and pay your taxes. We pay extra for spirits taxes, and then really get hammered for personal property tax for the privilege of owning manufacturing equipment. Meanwhile, everyone else gets some sort of deal....but happily, it's isn't too bad in Denver and Colorado in terms of corporate handouts. Yet, anyway!

I'd never open a biz in NY, cradle.

I would think you would have lost your mind if you ever did. I honestly don't understand how you do it. I understand the biz a little bit. I have seen bar owners on the verge of a nervous breakdown when it comes to their liquor license and the hoops they have to jump through. I have mad respect for you and your brother. I whine and complain all the time about people that pay too much in taxes but you do it every damn day and you don't expect anything in return. In reality, I have no problem paying my own fair share. My expectations are that my fair share will be spent in a responsible manner. You have pointed this out on many occasions. Trump ran as a hero of the average joe. He is no hero... he is spending even more money than any POTUS before him. His supporters love him, but they are not paying attention to what he is doing. The nation is 22 trillion in debt... what is the plan from both parties to deal with that. No need to even think about it... there is no plan...

[a fan]

with the $900 they collect on other taxes collected that the business generates for the city. NYC and state predicted a 9 to 1 return on their incentive. Probably overstated so lets say 3 to 1...with the #300 they collected.

Right. But you're forgetting that Business A has that same 9 to 1 ripple effect through the economy.

But now as I told you above, if you really think this is true, why tax either Business A or Business B?

In other words, the government already took that 9 to 1 ripple effect into account when setting the tax level for Business A. Business A, believe it or not, has the same rippling effects that Business B does.

My employees buy goods and services. Homes. They pay taxes. So given this "predicted return", and given your argument here, why is my business taxed?

Now you're stuck, and you're back to my point, and to Cortez's point, for that matter.....either tax Business A and B the same, or don't tax them at all.

And if you choose to not tax them at all, guess who's paying for all those government services? That's right. Now all the people get stuck paying for their services, and Bezos, owner of Business B skates, paying nothing.

If you believe in that, that's cool. But Taxing Business A, while giving Business B a pass makes zero economic, moral, or ethical sense.

[laxman3221]

laxman3221 wrote
The point is she thought they have the $3b in cash that can be spent on other things. She must have thought a plane would land with pallets of cash like Obama did for Iran. Was there congressional approval for that?

I find it a little hard to believe she doesn't know the difference between a boatload of cash and three bil in tax brakes. If she did say something like what you say she did, I'd bet it had a whole lot different meaning than what you're interpreting as. Meaning if and when a new business moves in we will collect the three billion in taxes which can be used for whatever. She's not that stupid, you're selling her mighty short but you'll tear her apart for her every less than perfect thing she does. Besides, knowing what you're talking about and/or being smart isn't a requirement for being a politician, congressperson or Prez. Plenty of proof of that.

Let's go to the video tape
“We were subsidizing those jobs,” Ocasio-Cortez said Thursday. “The city was paying for those jobs. Frankly, if we were willing to give away $3 billion dollars for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district, ourselves, if we wanted to. We could hire out more teachers. We can fix our subways. We can put a lot of people to work for that amount of money if we wanted to.”
https://news.yahoo.com/ocasio-cortez-ta ... 03774.html


She's a F'ing idiot. She also thought she had an inauguration.

I'm betting she also doesn't know the difference between a tax brake and tax break.

Amazing, one man's twitter interpretation, sarcasm and all, becomes fact. Andy's the F'ing idiot here.
a fan lays it out a whole lot better than I could, which is exactly what she meant, but you're hearing none of that.

I would give her the benefit of the doubt if it wasn't for all of the other completely idiotic things she has said and proposed.

Remember:
Unemployment is low because people are working 80 hours a week
A 17-year-old can walk into a shop" and purchase an assault weapon
Abolish ICE
Capitalism won't always exist in the world

[laxman3221]

with the $900 they collect on other taxes collected that the business generates for the city. NYC and state predicted a 9 to 1 return on their incentive. Probably overstated so lets say 3 to 1...with the #300 they collected.

Right. But you're forgetting that Business A has that same 9 to 1 ripple effect through the economy.
Or they don't have the same ripple because their revenue to be taxed isn't anything compared to the new company.
But now as I told you above, if you really think this is true, why tax either Business A or Business B?
see above
In other words, the government already took that 9 to 1 ripple effect into account when setting the taxlevel for Business A. Business A, believe it or not, has the same rippling effects that Business B does.
so business A and B both have the same size building and same staff, both pay $100 a year taxes on staff and property. Company A pays $100 on their revenue company B pays $10000 on their revenue. Same ripple? Nope.

Company C wants to move in, exactly like A&B in staff and property. Will pay $20000 in taxes on revenue but wants the $100 a year tax cut for 10 years. so that $19900 net gain per year not worth it?


My employees buy goods and services. Homes. They pay taxes. So given this "predicted return", and given your argument here, why is my business taxed?because you sell sin and are taxed on it! and you're bad at making deals with the tax man

Now you're stuck, and you're back to my point, and to Cortez's point, for that matter.....either tax Business A and B the same, or don't tax them at all.
why do business offer incentives, coupons Etc?
And if you choose to not tax them at all, guess who's paying for all those government services? That's right. Now all the people get stuck paying for their services, and Bezos, owner of Business B skates, paying nothing.


If you believe in that, that's cool. But Taxing Business A, while giving Business B a pass makes zero economic, moral, or ethical sense.

Governments are now competing with each other for business, as other businesses compete for my business by offering incentives, discounts etc.


I leave you with this:
Caller: Hi, I’d like to order 25 large pizzas. I have a coupon for $10 off.

AOC: I don’t believe in coupons. You must pay the full menu price.

Caller: In that case, I’m taking my business elsewhere.

AOC: Hey boss I just saved us $10! Where’s my raise?

[laxman3221]

Better news for Cuomo? Nope.

Amazon’s pullout Thursday wasn’t even the worst economic development news for Gov. Andrew Cuomo this week: Just two days earlier, his economic development czar basically admitted that the gov’s signature Buffalo Billion is a .?.?. Buffalo Bust.

In testimony Tuesday, Empire State Development boss Howard Zemsky tried to put a positive spin on it, but he acknowledged that Cuomo’s gamble of $750 million in taxpayer funds on a Buffalo solar panel plant has bombed: On its current course, there’s zero sign it can host anything like the promised number of jobs.

The project “has got a better future than it has a past,” Zemsky lamely claimed, while admitting the state’s now looking at a Plan B: “I think we have to work with Panasonic and Tesla,” the firms running the plant, to diversify their product base. Maybe they should start making fairy dust?

Zemsky’s testimony was a sad comment not just on solar as a replacement for fossil fuel but also Cuomo’s failed and costly approach to economic development.

The $750 million has led to just 700 jobs at the plant, far below promises, let alone any remotely reasonable return on the public’s investment. Meanwhile, the feds convicted multiple close Cuomo associates of corruption tied to the Buffalo Billion projects.

Nor would Tesla’s $42 million penalty (if it fails to create 1,460 jobs by next year) make much of a dent in the state’s outlays. Heck, Cuomo’s lucky that Tesla’s on the line: The original contract was with Solar City, which was going bankrupt when Tesla absorbed it.

And this waste is just a fraction of what’s gone on with the gov’s Andy Land projects. Last year, The Post cited $10 billion in such Cuomo handouts, such as $600 million for a computer chip firm that never opened.

The gov pretends that his deals can make up for New York’s high taxes and burdensome regulations — but the repeated failures of his projects show the opposite.
https://nypost.com/2019/02/15/worse-tha ... went-bust/

AOC Green Deal snapshot...

[DMac]

laxman3221 wrote
The point is she thought they have the $3b in cash that can be spent on other things. She must have thought a plane would land with pallets of cash like Obama did for Iran. Was there congressional approval for that?

I find it a little hard to believe she doesn't know the difference between a boatload of cash and three bil in tax brakes. If she did say something like what you say she did, I'd bet it had a whole lot different meaning than what you're interpreting as. Meaning if and when a new business moves in we will collect the three billion in taxes which can be used for whatever. She's not that stupid, you're selling her mighty short but you'll tear her apart for her every less than perfect thing she does. Besides, knowing what you're talking about and/or being smart isn't a requirement for being a politician, congressperson or Prez. Plenty of proof of that.

Let's go to the video tape
“We were subsidizing those jobs,” Ocasio-Cortez said Thursday. “The city was paying for those jobs. Frankly, if we were willing to give away $3 billion dollars for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district, ourselves, if we wanted to. We could hire out more teachers. We can fix our subways. We can put a lot of people to work for that amount of money if we wanted to.”
https://news.yahoo.com/ocasio-cortez-ta ... 03774.html


She's a F'ing idiot. She also thought she had an inauguration.

I'm betting she also doesn't know the difference between a tax brake and tax break.

Amazing, one man's twitter interpretation, sarcasm and all, becomes fact. Andy's the F'ing idiot here.
a fan lays it out a whole lot better than I could, which is exactly what she meant, but you're hearing none of that.

I would give her the benefit of the doubt if it wasn't for all of the other completely idiotic things she has said and proposed.

Remember:
Unemployment is low because people are working 80 hours a week
A 17-year-old can walk into a shop" and purchase an assault weapon
Abolish ICE
Capitalism won't always exist in the world

Good news is she's got plenty of years to gain wisdom, unlike Sessions, for example.
That's a real short list of stupid things said in comparison to the experienced lot hangin'
around the WH these days.

[laxman3221]

laxman3221 wrote
The point is she thought they have the $3b in cash that can be spent on other things. She must have thought a plane would land with pallets of cash like Obama did for Iran. Was there congressional approval for that?

I find it a little hard to believe she doesn't know the difference between a boatload of cash and three bil in tax brakes. If she did say something like what you say she did, I'd bet it had a whole lot different meaning than what you're interpreting as. Meaning if and when a new business moves in we will collect the three billion in taxes which can be used for whatever. She's not that stupid, you're selling her mighty short but you'll tear her apart for her every less than perfect thing she does. Besides, knowing what you're talking about and/or being smart isn't a requirement for being a politician, congressperson or Prez. Plenty of proof of that.

Let's go to the video tape
“We were subsidizing those jobs,” Ocasio-Cortez said Thursday. “The city was paying for those jobs. Frankly, if we were willing to give away $3 billion dollars for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district, ourselves, if we wanted to. We could hire out more teachers. We can fix our subways. We can put a lot of people to work for that amount of money if we wanted to.”
https://news.yahoo.com/ocasio-cortez-ta ... 03774.html


She's a F'ing idiot. She also thought she had an inauguration.

I'm betting she also doesn't know the difference between a tax brake and tax break.

Amazing, one man's twitter interpretation, sarcasm and all, becomes fact. Andy's the F'ing idiot here.
a fan lays it out a whole lot better than I could, which is exactly what she meant, but you're hearing none of that.

I would give her the benefit of the doubt if it wasn't for all of the other completely idiotic things she has said and proposed.

Remember:
Unemployment is low because people are working 80 hours a week
A 17-year-old can walk into a shop" and purchase an assault weapon
Abolish ICE
Capitalism won't always exist in the world

Good news is she's got plenty of years to gain wisdom, unlike Sessions, for example.
That's a real short list of stupid things said in comparison to the experienced lot hangin'
around the WH these days.

The list is quite extensive for a short timer. Those are just a few of the many.

[holmes435]

Tax collection went up with higher taxes and with now with lower taxes. afan chooses to pay higher taxes...don't be like afan

How much in taxes would we have collected if the tax cuts weren't in place?

What about all those working and middle class people who are finding out they are paying more in taxes this year due to Trump's plan?

[a fan]

so business A and B both have the same size building and same staff, both pay $100 a year taxes on staff and property. Company A pays $100 on their revenue company B pays $10000 on their revenue. Same ripple? Nope.

Company C wants to move in, exactly like A&B in staff and property. Will pay $20000 in taxes on revenue but wants the $100 a year tax cut for 10 years. so that $19900 net gain per year not worth it?

It's not a net gain. The government is still short $100. Again, your entire building is placed on the foundation that government doesn't need money to operate. If they don't need that $100, the OBVIOUS thing to do is-----lower all business taxes to the point where that $100 is matched.


But your have unwittingly hit on a larger point here. You're describing precisely how our politicians have handled our economy for the last 30 years. Let's look at what you're suggesting make sense has done:

1. You're giving massive tax breaks to large corporations. Corporations that are increasingly owned by foreign entities. So they aren't paying their share to keep the lights on in America. When you were insisting with me that revenues are up, were you aware that corporate income tax is waaaay down after the Trump cuts?

Know how much Corporate Tax Receipts dropped in one single freaking year? 31%

Oh yeah, that's brilliant. So everyone here is anti-tax, right? Well guess what? Pucker up, and get ready for tax hikes, because someone has to pay. And you just told me that you'd rather pay Exxon's taxes because you think that Exxon has "ripple effects" in the economy that you don't, so you should pay their taxes. This makes no sense to me, but it ain't just you. Everyone here save the libs and cradleandshoot thinks the Trump tax cuts are sweet, and we 'just need to be patient' to see how they work out. Yeah, ok.

2. You're giving large corporations a massive financial advantage over small businesses that are stuck paying far more in taxes. So not only are these small businesses less competitive, hobbled by taxes....you've just made it harder for small business to grow, add employees, or pay their employees well. And you think this makes sense? I know I don't.

3. You've started a race to the bottom in terms of your notion of States "competing for corporations". Ever wonder why your taxes keep going up, but services are still getting cut, roads suck, schools are always short of cash?

4. You're totally ignoring my point in my example. You want 1 company with 25,000 employees no taxes, while at the same time, you want 1,000 businesses with 25 employees to pay full taxes. That is what I'm trying to communicate with my Company A and Company B example. And you simply don't understand that any time you give out tax cuts, you're shorting the Treasury of money. You think that the money appears out of nowhere "somewhere else", not understanding that the same exact "ripple effects" happen with the 1,000 businesses with 25 employees.

But your message to that group is: shut up and pay your taxes. You know what you are suggesting is both ethically and economically wrong. BTW, did you know my company pays better, on average, than Amazon. But you want Amazon to pay no taxes, but I'm on the hook for full freight?

5. Entrepreneurship is down. Would you risk starting up a new business in the tax environment you're describing?

6. Now you're getting a handle on why the 1% is sucking up all the wealth. You're encouraging that with your tax scheme. Bezos pays nothing. Meanwhile, "a fan" and his brother sends hundreds of thousands of dollars to various taxing agencies all over the country.

7. As I cited before, citizens are picking up the slack for the massive tax handouts given to corporations.

In New York State in 1996, personal income tax was 51% of tax revenue, and business contributed about 17%

In 2018, personal income taxes made up 67% of tax revenue, and businesses paid 8%.


Take a good look at these number, laxman. This is what your tax scheme has done. So NYState citizens are the one's paying for your little game. Corporations are taking the bulk of that extra money and passing it to the 1%. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens like cradleandshoot are paying their tab.

I don't understand why you think this is a smart system. The 1% is walking with all the money, and the bottom half of earners and small businesses struggle to keep their heads above water.

You'd think the smart thing to do is reverse it, and saddle the corporations with higher taxes..but I'd settle for every to simply pay the same rate!



The good news for you is: your idea is the one that's in action all over the country. You win!

[DMac]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/amaz ... 37770.html

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/amaz ... 37770.html

That’s fantastic. And we have people in this country making 5 figures and paying takes that are supportive of this. Brainwashed

[holmes435]

Amazon paying $0 in taxes just makes them smart.

Or that's what I've heard.

[kramerica.inc]

Buzzfeed, Covington, now Smollett.

Left-wing is really grasping these days.

And suddenly Booker and Harris are oddly silent.

[a fan]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/amaz ... 37770.html

That’s fantastic. And we have people in this country making 5 figures and paying takes that are supportive of this. Brainwashed

Oh, they just have to "be patient", TLD. You see, it's a complete "accident" that Corporate Income Tax revenue dropped by 31% in a single year in a positive GDP year.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/amaz ... 37770.html

That’s fantastic. And we have people in this country making 5 figures and paying takes that are supportive of this. Brainwashed

Oh, they just have to "be patient", TLD. You see, it's a complete "accident" that Corporate Income Tax revenue dropped by 31% in a single year in a positive GDP year.

I actually had a friend tell me that $10MM a year is “not that much money” and he wouldn’t want to see marginal tax rates increase until a Guy makes $100MM in a year. Completely serious and with a straight face. Duped.

[kramerica.inc]

Harris deletes her tweet about Smollet calling it a “modern- day lynching.”

Hmm...

But Smollet still referring to himself as “the gay Tupac” who survived an attempt on his life.

[youthathletics]

An American swindles Nigerians for he first time, usually happens the other way around.

Maybe BHO gave him some ideas as his mentor. https://twitter.com/dineshdsouza/status ... 44161?s=21

[thatsmell]

[Typical Lax Dad]

That’s when you know you made it! Dude is shaping up to be a loser.