D1 Men Rankings

[Matnum PI]

"Best team in the nation..." Seriously? They just lost to Notre Dame 22-8. 22-8. Two wins against the same team makes a season? Syracuse also lost to Notre Dame...twice, so that should cancel out the Virginia wins, a wash.

The point is that an eye test can justify even the most ridiculous of perspectives.

[wgdsr]

An "eye test" is a go-to phrase that one can use to justify literally any ranking. "Yes, SU lost a bunch of games but, based on what they did against UVA twice, I see them as the best team in the nation. They pass my eye test." And there's a place for this. It's not, so to speak, wrong. But I do think it's prone to be wrought with subjective prejudices. Subjective prejudices that, from where I'm sitting, should be removed from rankings. I prefer attempts at an objective truth. An objective truth based on games, wins and losses, and whom those wins and losses are against. With this in mind, Anyone who has UMD at #1 should have RU similarly well-ranked. If they have UMD at #2 or lower, then RU could be lower. But we can't have RU ranked in a relatively low position and then have UMD at #1. It just doesn't make sense...

it doesn't make sense to you because you look at it different than others.

every team has shown an ability to lose other than maryland. yes, sos matters, but losing to that sos also matters and shouldn't in a good way.

You and I both know that for 20+ years, the NCAA Committee has been rewarding teams that lose to top teams. They think playing UVa and losing to them is better than not playing them at all.

This makes zero sense, but that's what you get when you value SOS as an independent value.

Teams have been losing their way to seeds and bids for 20 years. I see no reason why this won't happen again in 2021.

sos stopped being an independent value around 2016. though it's still baked into rpi. which is worse. yes, i have had a problem with selection process for a long time.

at a minimum, mid-majors had a formula they could replicate. but it takes a lot of work to get there. even loyola had it figured out with the largest conference in the land. but more work, fo sho. and not built in a day.

[tech37]

An "eye test" is a go-to phrase that one can use to justify literally any ranking. "Yes, SU lost a bunch of games but, based on what they did against UVA twice, I see them as the best team in the nation. They pass my eye test." And there's a place for this. It's not, so to speak, wrong. But I do think it's prone to be wrought with subjective prejudices. Subjective prejudices that, from where I'm sitting, should be removed from rankings. I prefer attempts at an objective truth. An objective truth based on games, wins and losses, and whom those wins and losses are against. With this in mind, Anyone who has UMD at #1 should have RU similarly well-ranked. If they have UMD at #2 or lower, then RU could be lower. But we can't have RU ranked in a relatively low position and then have UMD at #1. It just doesn't make sense...

it doesn't make sense to you because you look at it different than others.

every team has shown an ability to lose other than maryland. yes, sos matters, but losing to that sos also matters and shouldn't in a good way.

You and I both know that for 20+ years, the NCAA Committee has been rewarding teams that lose to top teams. They think playing UVa and losing to them is better than not playing them at all.

This makes zero sense, but that's what you get when you value SOS as an independent value.

Teams have been losing their way to seeds and bids for 20 years. I see no reason why this won't happen again in 2021.

They also have historically highly valued "big" wins (top 5 RPI), so I would not be surprised if Maryland does not get the #1 seed.

I like UNC's resume for that #1 seed.

[a fan]

sos stopped being an independent value around 2016.

Did I miss a memo? Thank you for the clarification.

I have no idea whether I never heard that detail....or simply forgot.

[Matnum PI]

Historically, the committee (and so many rankings) love undefeated...

[wgdsr]

sos stopped being an independent value around 2016.

Did I miss a memo? Thank you for the clarification.

I have no idea whether I never heard that detail....or simply forgot.

'17 (i think), '18 and '19 they went straight rpi. no other explanation makes sense.

and then the committee chair confirmed it in '19 with his press interview. lined up straight rpi, ordered pizza, see if they see any outlier... press a button.

of course, straight rpi of teams is nowhere near the primary or secondary criteria to be measured. only w's and losses vs opponents' rpi's.

we need a system. at least teams would know what they have to do.

[RURICK]

Everyone should take into consideration that at the end of the 2020 season, several so called knowledgeable people were saying syracuse was the best team in the country. Since that time, those same people have had to justify Syracuse even being allowed in this year's tourney. despite blowout losses, Syracuse has remained in the top ten. So, what happens if Syracuse plays and loses to robert morris? Will syracuse still get in the tourney? If cuse gets in the tourney regardless of a ROMO matchup, that would be an indication that the knowledgeable people are completely biased towards Syracuse and the ACC. Finally, someone please offer me an explanation as to why virginia leapfrogged RU from 7th to 5th and RU dropped from 5th to 6th in the coaches poll when neither team even played in the previous week.

[wgdsr]

Everyone should take into consideration that at the end of the 2020 season, several so called knowledgeable people were saying syracuse was the best team in the country. Since that time, those same people have had to justify Syracuse even being allowed in this year's tourney. despite blowout losses, Syracuse has remained in the top ten. So, what happens if Syracuse plays and loses to robert morris? Will syracuse still get in the tourney? If cuse gets in the tourney regardless of a ROMO matchup, that would be an indication that the knowledgeable people are completely biased towards Syracuse and the ACC. Finally, someone please offer me an explanation as to why virginia leapfrogged RU from 7th to 5th and RU dropped from 5th to 6th in the coaches poll when neither team even played in the previous week.

weren't you the guy that said the coach's poll had the most knowledgeable people and the one we should watch?

so we're weighing the 2020 season? that'd be the one where the b1g was a pedestrian (for them) 23-16 out of conference? that's what we have to go by, right?

[a fan]

Everyone should take into consideration that at the end of the 2020 season, several so called knowledgeable people were saying syracuse was the best team in the country.

Why? Who cares what "some guy said" last year?

Finally, someone please offer me an explanation as to why virginia leapfrogged RU from 7th to 5th and RU dropped from 5th to 6th in the coaches poll when neither team even played in the previous week.

That's easy. Coaches changed their minds as to how good UVa and RU are based on what happened this past week.

So some of the coaches, for example, could have devalued Rutgers previous wins over Ohio State and Penn State. At the start of the season, O State and PennSt. were both in the top ten.....so those Rutgers wins looked great.

Now? Both Penn St. and Ohio St. aren't even in the top 20.

[Matnum PI]

At the start of the season, O State and Penn St. were both in the top ten.....so those Rutgers wins looked great. Now? Both Penn St. and Ohio St. aren't even in the top 20.

Yes. When Hofstra beats Towson or whomever, this should effect every other team in D1 Men's Lacrosse. You need a computer to monitor these seismic shifts but, with D1 Men only having 74 teams (less in 2021), every game effects every team.

Separately, but similarly, based on their quality wins (and losses) in 2021, RU should not be ranked #6...

[kramerica.inc]

Historically, the committee (and so many rankings) love undefeated...

Unless that team is Bucknell on the men’s side or Stony Brook on the women’s.

[jrn19]

At the start of the season, O State and Penn St. were both in the top ten.....so those Rutgers wins looked great. Now? Both Penn St. and Ohio St. aren't even in the top 20.

Yes. When Hofstra beats Towson or whomever, this should effect every other team in D1 Men's Lacrosse. You need a computer to monitor these seismic shifts but, with D1 Men only having 74 teams (less in 2021), every game effects every team.

Separately, but similarly, based on their quality wins (and losses) in 2021, RU should not be ranked #6...

Quality wins and losses are not the only way to rank a team. They may be your way, and they may be the way of the NCAA selection committee for tournament seeding; but they are not the only ways you can rank teams for a top 20 poll

[Matnum PI]

Quality wins and losses are not the only way to rank a team. They may be your way, and they may be the way of the NCAA selection committee for tournament seeding; but they are not the only ways you can rank teams for a top 20 poll

agreed. There's literally an infinite number of ways to rank a team. But... Doesn't ranking based on Wins and Losses and who those wins and losses were against make the most sense? Ws and Ls is a true meritocracy, a manner that all but erases each team's lacrosse brand and hones in on nothing but who did you beat and who did you lose to and... That should be everything when evaluating a season. A season should be evaluated based on each team's current season, period. But... we know that this isn't what we do. Instead we mix in some, "Yeah, but SU just looks better..."

[HopFan16]

Instead we mix in some, "Yeah, but SU just looks better..."

Yeah that's the point of in-season rankings? You take into account the full season but you weigh toward recent play. There's nothing wrong with that. It's supposed to be a snapshot of who the best teams are at the moment that the rankings are assembled, isn't it? "I think X team is better than Y team right now and would probably win head-to-head" is a perfectly acceptable way to rank in-season even if Y team's tournament resume might be stronger than X's, provided you can make a decent argument to support it. Otherwise the rankings have absolutely no reason to exist and we should just wait for the committee to evaluate overall resumes. Rather than play a guessing game about how the committee may or may not value a team you should just pick your own criteria, as long as you're consistent with it.

[RURICK]

There are not only a variety of ways to evaluate teams but there are also a variety of ways to slant the criteria to get your favorite team and/or conferemce represented in the tourney. The only way to satisfy everyone and not question the process is to double the bids and play another round. Then the perceived better leagues can get more teams in the tourney and the schools can settle it on the field. I think that would attract more viewership. Face it, the larger schools, especially in the Big Ten, have little interest in lacrosse. It is football and basketball and every other sport is considered a minor/secondary sport. i think my suggestion is simple and allow lacrosse to grow in the country.

[pcowlax]

Something I said on D3 board also applies here I think. There are indeed numerous ways to rank teams and really there isn’t one “right” way. “Best” (who would win if they played heads up) vs “Most deserving” (who has the best resume, even if you think they might not actually beat another team under consideration head to head, is the eternal debate that will never be settled. Above all else however I think the committee should always have one primary directive and that is not to leave out a team they think has a legitimate shot of winning the tournament. There aren’t really many of those and they should always find a way to include them.

[Comeonman]

[quote="Matnum PI" post_id=255633 time=<a href="tel:1620147195">1620147195</a> user_id=54]
Historically, the committee (and so many rankings) love undefeated...

Unless that team is Bucknell on the men’s side or Stony Brook on the women’s.
[/quote]Well played

[Matnum PI]

Otherwise the rankings have absolutely no reason to exist and we should just wait for the committee to evaluate overall resumes.

The rankings reason to exist is to provide a real time assessment of which teams have earned what rankings throughout the season...

[a fan]

There are not only a variety of ways to evaluate teams but there are also a variety of ways to slant the criteria to get your favorite team and/or conferemce represented in the tourney. The only way to satisfy everyone and not question the process is to double the bids and play another round. y.

You think that that would stop sports fans from complaining?

They already expanded the NCAA tournament. There are more than enough bites at the apple these days..especially now that everyone is in a conference.

If you want a bid, you can blow the entire season, win the conference, and get in. (Hello Hopkins)

[molo]

Think they can pull it off? I like their chances against Rutgers but still would give the Knights the edge. If they get past Rutgers, then I really like their chances in their next game.