The Nation's Financial Condition

[Farfromgeneva]

I’m still stubbornly a Republican, and a philosophical libertarian (you know I’d bounce deposit insurance, mortgage tax deductions, Fannie & Freddie, ag subsidies and a host of other things in my mind if I could), so consider this my effort at finding successful common ground.

Yes.

But you're also a realist, and understand that there is a heavy price to pay for libertarianism. In other words, if you remove the US Gov. from the the housing market (Fannie, Freddie, other .gov program that backs housing purchases), you actually understand that the housing market would collapse.

Freedom isn't free.

Somebody has to pay it at some point...

[a fan]

I’m still stubbornly a Republican, and a philosophical libertarian (you know I’d bounce deposit insurance, mortgage tax deductions, Fannie & Freddie, ag subsidies and a host of other things in my mind if I could), so consider this my effort at finding successful common ground.

Yes.

But you're also a realist, and understand that there is a heavy price to pay for libertarianism. In other words, if you remove the US Gov. from the the housing market (Fannie, Freddie, other .gov program that backs housing purchases), you actually understand that the housing market would collapse.

Freedom isn't free.

Somebody has to pay it at some point...

Oh, I agree. My point is, 99.9% of libertarians I meet don't want to hear about the downside to freedom from government help/interference.

One consequence, for example, is that rural America would dry up and blow away permanently without Federal .gov help/market interference.

[Farfromgeneva]

Get that rural broadband and improvement to the highway system East-west since we made the decision to go balls deep and cars and planes 50-100yrs ago and it’s a ton of cheap land with potential. Take a generation but could be a healthy reset. And we safety net they w legit skill training and UBI type setup.

[Brooklyn]

Unemployment rate down. Job hiring up.

Covid deaths down. Vaccinations up.


Life in the USA under Biden. So much better than under tRUMP_Stupid.

[njbill]

I think the infrastructure piece, if handled in a manner something like the Civilian Conservation Corps, would appeal to the Progressive base...

Civilian Infrastructure Corps? A jobs bill that would make a significant impact...AND potentially be highly visible. If they’re smart, they’d work it in with some GND language as well...

..

They could start by taking down the T**** Vanity Wall. Lotta jobs there.

[dislaxxic]

Do i remember correctly that the LAST time we attempted an infrastructure bill was that the Republicons wanted the money spent on tax breaks and concessions to the private sector contractors..."Big Construction" if you will...as opposed to a more direct program that would have benefitted the working-level employment situation at a more grass-roots level...? I probably mangled that, but does anyone remember WHY we couldn't seem to get an Infrastructure Bill done the last time around...?

..

[RedFromMI]

Do i remember correctly that the LAST time we attempted an infrastructure bill was that the Republicons wanted the money spent on tax breaks and concessions to the private sector contractors..."Big Construction" if you will...as opposed to a more direct program that would have benefitted the working-level employment situation at a more grass-roots level...? I probably mangled that, but does anyone remember WHY we couldn't seem to get an Infrastructure Bill done the last time around...?

..

Because the Trump administration was more or less incompetent at passing legislation (what did get passed was something that needed no help with R control over both houses). That is at least part of the reason.

Another is that while the R push is always to push money directly to private contractors, they could not get the 60 votes necessary to pass something like this due to a combination of not bending any to get D votes, and the actual lack of urgency among most of the Rs in Congress to do something. Plus they burned the reconciliation route in the 2017-2019 Congress for the tax cuts and did not have that again when they were in full control.

[foreverlax]

Do i remember correctly that the LAST time we attempted an infrastructure bill was that the Republicons wanted the money spent on tax breaks and concessions to the private sector contractors..."Big Construction" if you will...as opposed to a more direct program that would have benefitted the working-level employment situation at a more grass-roots level...? I probably mangled that, but does anyone remember WHY we couldn't seem to get an Infrastructure Bill done the last time around...?

..

Essentially, we are going to get ripped off because of the way government spends - Trump wanted his friends to get rich and us eat the risk/debt, the Ds just wanted us to eat the debt.

[RedFromMI]

Do i remember correctly that the LAST time we attempted an infrastructure bill was that the Republicons wanted the money spent on tax breaks and concessions to the private sector contractors..."Big Construction" if you will...as opposed to a more direct program that would have benefitted the working-level employment situation at a more grass-roots level...? I probably mangled that, but does anyone remember WHY we couldn't seem to get an Infrastructure Bill done the last time around...?

..

Essentially, we are going to get ripped off because of the way government spends - Trump wanted his friends to get rich and us eat the risk/debt, the Ds just wanted us to eat the debt.

Except the Ds have no problem raising taxes on the wealthy to start paying back some of this debt...

[youthathletics]

Do i remember correctly that the LAST time we attempted an infrastructure bill was that the Republicons wanted the money spent on tax breaks and concessions to the private sector contractors..."Big Construction" if you will...as opposed to a more direct program that would have benefitted the working-level employment situation at a more grass-roots level...? I probably mangled that, but does anyone remember WHY we couldn't seem to get an Infrastructure Bill done the last time around...?

..

Essentially, we are going to get ripped off because of the way government spends - Trump wanted his friends to get rich and us eat the risk/debt, the Ds just wanted us to eat the debt.

Except the Ds have no problem raising taxes on the wealthy to start paying back some of this debt...

If you keep the partisan bantering out of it, Trump actually wanted the 1 Trillion Infrastructure to be allocated for infrastructure, than trickle that into the states using Public-Private Partnerships PPP (not the covide PPP) Remember, he also wanted US manufacturing to grow which is why he was also fighting to build that back up. Partisan bickering will again call BS, but to do infrastructure you need manufacturing, to include construction equipment and materials. Additionally to major construction, you need to cut red tape....remember BHO (Shovel ready was not so shovel ready...b/c of red tape).

Trump was treating this like any other major construction project, again, also like BHO (You did not build that, comment. If the feds jump start projects by injecting the cash in to the states and a PPP joins in, the burden of cash is spread out further and does not hit so hard up front. It also helps to assign accountability appropriately, allowing the Feds to be co-General Contractors.



There just isn’t an easy way to solve the infrastructure problem we’ve allowed to grow and fester for a generation. To get the money it needs, government is going to have to attract substantial private investment. That, in turn, means figuring out new incentives to lure investors. It also means that state and local governments must develop new ways of managing such complex partnerships -- and of figuring out how to share the proceeds with private partners.

It means, in one sense, reaching back to the Pennsylvania Turnpike and HoJo’s to find clues about the future of federalism.

[Farfromgeneva]

Do i remember correctly that the LAST time we attempted an infrastructure bill was that the Republicons wanted the money spent on tax breaks and concessions to the private sector contractors..."Big Construction" if you will...as opposed to a more direct program that would have benefitted the working-level employment situation at a more grass-roots level...? I probably mangled that, but does anyone remember WHY we couldn't seem to get an Infrastructure Bill done the last time around...?

..

Essentially, we are going to get ripped off because of the way government spends - Trump wanted his friends to get rich and us eat the risk/debt, the Ds just wanted us to eat the debt.

Been saying this for a while,everything is OPM for real estate people-other peoples money. Transferring this concept of risk transference to other areas, hes going to risk everyone else lives for the optionality in the upside which he would take.

[Farfromgeneva]

Do i remember correctly that the LAST time we attempted an infrastructure bill was that the Republicons wanted the money spent on tax breaks and concessions to the private sector contractors..."Big Construction" if you will...as opposed to a more direct program that would have benefitted the working-level employment situation at a more grass-roots level...? I probably mangled that, but does anyone remember WHY we couldn't seem to get an Infrastructure Bill done the last time around...?

..

Essentially, we are going to get ripped off because of the way government spends - Trump wanted his friends to get rich and us eat the risk/debt, the Ds just wanted us to eat the debt.

Except the Ds have no problem raising taxes on the wealthy to start paying back some of this debt...

If you keep the partisan bantering out of it, Trump actually wanted the 1 Trillion Infrastructure to be allocated for infrastructure, than trickle that into the states using Public-Private Partnerships PPP (not the covide PPP) Remember, he also wanted US manufacturing to grow which is why he was also fighting to build that back up. Partisan bickering will again call BS, but to do infrastructure you need manufacturing, to include construction equipment and materials. Additionally to major construction, you need to cut red tape....remember BHO (Shovel ready was not so shovel ready...b/c of red tape).

Trump was treating this like any other major construction project, again, also like BHO (You did not build that, comment. If the feds jump start projects by injecting the cash in to the states and a PPP joins in, the burden of cash is spread out further and does not hit so hard up front. It also helps to assign accountability appropriately, allowing the Feds to be co-General Contractors.



There just isn’t an easy way to solve the infrastructure problem we’ve allowed to grow and fester for a generation. To get the money it needs, government is going to have to attract substantial private investment. That, in turn, means figuring out new incentives to lure investors. It also means that state and local governments must develop new ways of managing such complex partnerships -- and of figuring out how to share the proceeds with private partners.

It means, in one sense, reaching back to the Pennsylvania Turnpike and HoJo’s to find clues about the future of federalism.

Having done a bit of work around the Macquarie (skyway sold now) ownership of the Chicago Skyway and Dulles Greenway Toll Roads I’ve come to the conclusion public-private has very limited incremental value here,not a trillion dollars worth. And I was a huge P-P guy back in the day. It’s just not worth it though for most public goods.

But I will say Obama’s shovel ready was a joke too. Atlanta spent a billion dollars,mostly fed money,on an above ground trolley that goes like 15 blocks and has generated like maybe 1-2mm in revenue since opening years ago. It was a complete joke and waste of dough -thanks Kasim Reed.

[Farfromgeneva]

If we make broadband available eventually we could bounce the usps...

[RedFromMI]

If we make broadband available eventually we could bounce the usps...

Nah - USPS could survive in rural areas by being the delivery point for the last miles like it is in my small town. Most Amazon deliveries come through them to me.

USPS could also be allowed to be a basic bank for those customers who cannot afford to use a big bank, and there would be a safer and more convenient way for them to deal with paychecks, etc.

[Farfromgeneva]

I loathe the postal banking idea. Worked for a few years for Commerzbank which is the #2 German bank and learned about their post bank system which ultimately was a disaster for their country.

The last mile part I’m ok with but clearly it’s overall relevance is diminishing and largely exists to support rural poor and subsidize business. The latter I would like to get away from and that’s no shot at Amazon, I just don’t think w should subsidize product delivery on top of the additional stress on federally funded roads, Rail and air.

[youthathletics]

Do i remember correctly that the LAST time we attempted an infrastructure bill was that the Republicons wanted the money spent on tax breaks and concessions to the private sector contractors..."Big Construction" if you will...as opposed to a more direct program that would have benefitted the working-level employment situation at a more grass-roots level...? I probably mangled that, but does anyone remember WHY we couldn't seem to get an Infrastructure Bill done the last time around...?

..

Essentially, we are going to get ripped off because of the way government spends - Trump wanted his friends to get rich and us eat the risk/debt, the Ds just wanted us to eat the debt.

Except the Ds have no problem raising taxes on the wealthy to start paying back some of this debt...

If you keep the partisan bantering out of it, Trump actually wanted the 1 Trillion Infrastructure to be allocated for infrastructure, than trickle that into the states using Public-Private Partnerships PPP (not the covide PPP) Remember, he also wanted US manufacturing to grow which is why he was also fighting to build that back up. Partisan bickering will again call BS, but to do infrastructure you need manufacturing, to include construction equipment and materials. Additionally to major construction, you need to cut red tape....remember BHO (Shovel ready was not so shovel ready...b/c of red tape).

Trump was treating this like any other major construction project, again, also like BHO (You did not build that, comment. If the feds jump start projects by injecting the cash in to the states and a PPP joins in, the burden of cash is spread out further and does not hit so hard up front. It also helps to assign accountability appropriately, allowing the Feds to be co-General Contractors.



There just isn’t an easy way to solve the infrastructure problem we’ve allowed to grow and fester for a generation. To get the money it needs, government is going to have to attract substantial private investment. That, in turn, means figuring out new incentives to lure investors. It also means that state and local governments must develop new ways of managing such complex partnerships -- and of figuring out how to share the proceeds with private partners.

It means, in one sense, reaching back to the Pennsylvania Turnpike and HoJo’s to find clues about the future of federalism.

Having done a bit of work around the Macquarie (skyway sold now) ownership of the Chicago Skyway and Dulles Greenway Toll Roads I’ve come to the conclusion public-private has very limited incremental value here,not a trillion dollars worth. And I was a huge P-P guy back in the day. It’s just not worth it though for most public goods.

But I will say Obama’s shovel ready was a joke too. Atlanta spent a billion dollars,mostly fed money,on an above ground trolley that goes like 15 blocks and has generated like maybe 1-2mm in revenue since opening years ago. It was a complete joke and waste of dough -thanks Kasim Reed.

The bottom line is that P-3 gets things done at a faster pace...which is long overdue. The rub, at least with roads, is that they then charge you for it once completed...to run the Dulles Greenway daily can break your bank.

However, here in MD, PG County schools is going with p3, first in the country, for a modicum of reasons. As you may or may not know, public gov't sector employee maintenance and skilled trades are horrible and buildings fall apart the moment they are built, with P-3, the burden of longevity/maintanace is on the p3, so there is incentive.

Hope it goes well.

[Farfromgeneva]

It’s a Big risk, unfamiliar w Maryland’s plans. I like it in concept but in practice it’s like pulling an Enron (selling off hard assets to improve cash flow in the current period but selling out the future). I’ll give them credit for trying something different just hope the politicians are honest about the costs and risks of going down this path.

[youthathletics]

It’s a Big risk, unfamiliar w Maryland’s plans. I like it in concept but in practice it’s like pulling an Enron (selling off hard assets to improve cash flow in the current period but selling out the future). I’ll give them credit for trying something different just hope the politicians are honest about the costs and risks of going down this path.

Seems to be a win-win, especially for the students and families. The negotiating and contract portion was quite extensive. The selected GC is also not some fly by night contractor...more here.

https://dcist.com/story/20/10/13/prince ... rtnership/
The project could create 3,000 jobs with prevailing wages and increase the county’s GDP by 2 percent. Without the P3, the cost to the county would be 15 to 20 percent more and construction would take until 2036.

[Farfromgeneva]

Hope it works out. Have to really evaluate the model that comes up with the “could generate” 2% GDP and 3,000 (net) new jobs statement. I suspect that’s based on certain assumptions that you may not agree with.

[3rdPersonPlural]

....... no one can really define what that has actually been in like 30-40yrs. It seems like a myth to many and the period "post middle class" appears as long as the period of the glory of the middle class temporally.

I can tell you what the Middle Class WAS (I graduated from HS the year you were born).

When I was in middle school, dads used to march their kids straight from HS graduation to the Union Hall and sign junior up for a lifetime job making Keds or whatever. The factories were HERE. The jobs were HERE. The unions were influential.

Starting salary was (best as I can figure) about 65 or 75 k in todays dollars. 8 weeks salary equaled a premium Oldsmobile. 3 years salary bought you a perfectly reasonable home in a good neighborhood near work. Enough to be solvent, but not enough to make any 'moves'.

Medical was paid by the company. There was a pension for everyone. Stick around, do your job, raise your kids, enjoy your time off, have your best life, retire, grow old, and die with dignity.

Once you signed on, you could buy a nice 3 bedroom on Swede Hill. A lot of HS grads marched straight from the Union Hall to their girlfriends house and proposed. Life became 'adulting' at 18 for the middle class.

The middle class had reliable extra money every month. Some people invested it well and retired on a golf course in Fla. and left their kids a little something. Some had a hobby --- a dune buggy or civil war re-enacting or a little lake house or a fishing hobby with a boat or a travel trailer that had been towed everywhere. Or a dragster. Or a kayak club. People could stay interested and sane, right?

The middle class did not have to worry about college money. If your kid was smart enough to go to college, he/she'd get a scholarship. A summer job earned enough to pay a years tuition at even Yale. Helping your child get through college was not a mortgage-scale commitment. There were apprenticeships for kids who were gifted but didn't want to become a lawyer or doctor or business analyst or something. Welders and electricians made a little more than line people and a little less than lawyers/doctors, and if that appealed to you it was worth putting off 'adulting' for a year or two to learn that trade.

The middle class never gave a second thought to retirement. If that was your hobby, sure, even just buying CDs got you 10% a year return and there were these utility plans that paid off like crazy! If you want to retire early and live good instead of raising kids or having a hobby, that was an option. But if you ignored this whole savings thing and sunk every dime you had into your model railroad project you were still OK.

THAT'S a middle class, as us boomers remember it. It broke in the mid 70's and died when Reagan declared that American workers could compete with SouthEast Asian workers dollar for dollar item for item.

This has been the central issue at the Forum since the start of the Laxpower Water Cooler.

The Republicans answer to fixing this problem was----and is----to give as many tax breaks and subsidies to multinational corporations, and this money will (snicker) trickle down to the Middle Class. That's it. That's the plan.

The Dems followed this suit starting with Bill C., and following through Obama.

Now Biden is in the batter's box. If he doesn't do something big to fix this obvious problem? Dems will lose the voter engagement that won them the White House and Congress.

He has two years. Well....one, really. One big bill that helps middle class in the long term.

Ah! The trickle down argument.

Well, that wealth infusion DID trickle down. As some Russian oligarch who owned a women’s basketball team once noted, “You can only eat one breakfast”.

That wealth went where it was already going. Efficiency. Optimization. Cost-reduction. These are goals of the owner class. It just went faster. Let’s look closer.

Labor intensive jobs went to where the labor was much cheaper and not unionized and factories were supported as part of a national (communism!!) economic plan. So our manufacturing base went to China. FREE MARKET!! FREE TRADE!!

Environmentally dangerous factories were set up where the potential loss of whole communities was considered a necessary risk. Not many communities like that in the first world. Try to but plastics by the barrel from anywhere but Alibaba. Those shops are not here anymore.
Lots of capital was invested in initiatives that replaced labor. Switches that replaced telephone operators. The Internet. Robot manufacturing. Barcodes. A.I. accountants. Those machines that direct your call. All the infrastructure jobs in the financial markets are now handled by secure platforms that perform millions of actions per eyeblink. Self check-out at the grocery store. Most people employed by the Ag businesses are either machine operators or desk jockeys. Now self driving trucks. Soon automated Chefs.

Unless you code or fix tech problems, where is your job in 2030?
Does anyone see more and better jobs for people who weren’t the smartest kid in class in that list?

Sure, this evolution would have happened anyway but reducing taxes for the rich and well financed only accelerated. I don’t see a benefit, here.

I suggest:

Tax the (very) rich. Adopt UBI. Eliminate the minimum wage. Allow the inevitable gig economy to adopt universal medical by legislating Medicare-for all and enabling private insurers to offer premium packages for the elites and well-employed.

The alternative is pitchforks. I do not want to expire skewered on a pitchfork, but this Game-Stop uppity-ness is just the tip of the pitchfork iceberg.