US Lacrosse Top 20

[ergit]

I watched both teams play in 2020 and tufts was much better than Salisbury top to bottom.

I have no stake with either team, this statement is absolutely ridiculous.
Obviously a homer...

[DeepPocket]

[laxrules]

Ridiculous or not in your pinion. I would say in my honest opinion, tufts beats Salisbury 18-11 last year. We will never know, but tufts was rolling good teams in 2020. Put up 25 on everyone. They wouldn’t put 25 on Sal but would win handily

[Pinchnpop]

Maybe, but Tufts hadn't really played a ranked team, Amherst?. And Salisbury never gave up more than 10 goals against three ranked opponents. Scoring 25 but giving up 15 to a unranked team? Offense wins games, defense wins championships. What happens when you can't gain possession but you also cannot stop opponents offense, looks like that could be a huge possibility seeing fogo and both wings are All Americans. Would have been interesting game no doubt, my opinion 16-8 Salisbury, defense shuts it down.

[Unknown Participant]

Maybe, but Tufts hadn't really played a ranked team, Amherst?. And Salisbury never gave up more than 10 goals against three ranked opponents. Scoring 25 but giving up 15 to a unranked team? Offense wins games, defense wins championships. What happens when you can't gain possession but you also cannot stop opponents offense, looks like that could be a huge possibility seeing fogo and both wings are All Americans. Would have been interesting game no doubt, my opinion 16-8 Salisbury, defense shuts it down.

Nice bit of misinformation/propaganda there ... "giving up 15 to a [sic] unranked team." Amherst was ranked 3 or 4 when Tufts DEMOLISHED the Mammoths. I think they were ranked 6-7 at season's end in any event.

In addition, Ithaca was ranked when Tufts ran away with that game 26-11 (and falling out of the poll the next week) and Springfield was either ranked at 20 or also considered in the poll before the same result. I even think Colby had been also considered. Lastly, you need to understand that Tufts cleared its bench in games 1 and 2, starters played most of game against the Mammoths and the seniors played against Ithaca. Many/most of those goals against were garbage time.

I believe Salisbury was losing at the half to Stevens (Hell, Stevens is a tough out, the Bo's were losing at the half there in 2019) and had some other games that were competitive.

In any event, last year I thought Tufts/Salisbury would be the championship game with Tufts on top. This year, the same game, but not so sanguine about the Bo's since I read that Salisbury returns 9-10 starters who are using the extra year. We'll see I guess.

[overandback]

Take Wuhan off their schedules and they both run the table.

[Tactful Lax]

I just don't understand taking this much time to argue about a game that will never happen.

[ergit]

Boring...

[ah23]

Salisbury is not as good at Tufts last year. If last year is not being considered then Cabrini should be #1.
US lacrosse always rank some schools that dont belong in places.

Rules-
I can't definitively tell you whether Salisbury or Tufts was the better team in '20 anymore than you can. The Gulls were 7-0 w/ convincing wins over Lynchburg and Gettysburg. If there's one thing I do know, it's that Salisbury teams improve greatly between the beginning and end of their seasons. Considering the fact that the Gulls were ranked #1 and rolling through their first seven games, I'm confident they would have given Tufts all they could handle.

Now if you're talking about the 2021 season, I'd be careful of what you're hoping for - Make no mistake about it- This year's SU team is rock solid from top to bottom and will welcome any & all comers...

Here's to good health, some friendly banter on the forum, and everyone getting a chance to play some lacrosse in '21 !!

GO GULLS!!

There was no right/wrong answer last year, but I would have absolutely gone with Tufts. Their smallest margin of victory was beating national runner-up Amherst by 10 goals. Beat Ithaca (who - transitive property alert - beat Cabrini) by 15, beat Springfield by 19. I don't know how anyone would have been able to play with them for four quarters.

They bring back most of last year's team for 2021. I really hope NESCAC leadership figures itself out and lets the season happen, because a potential Tufts-Salisbury matchup would be D3 lacrosse nirvana.

[Dr. Pretorious]

[/quote]

Their smallest margin of victory was beating national runner-up Amherst by 10 goals. Beat Ithaca (who - transitive property alert - beat Cabrini) by 15, beat Springfield by 19.
[/quote]

Although perhaps statistically accurate, just highlights how meaningless such comparisons are - The two teams in question played completely different schedules without a single common opponent; thus comparisons to cherry picked statistics are meaningless. The lacrosse played in the northern half is notoriously known for generally not playing much defense; typical scores in the NESCAC are 25-17, whereas typical scores in games played south of DC are like 11-8 - The margins of victory in those games are skewed. If someone had the time and the interest, a more accurate statistic would be to detail the proportional margins of victory - an 8-2 win is more impressive than a 25-18 even though the latter is a “bigger margin”. I think one of the key differences is that Salisbury was putting up 20+ goals against teams who actually commit to playing defense ... while at the same time holding their opponents on average to less than 10.
It’s the Loyola Marymount phenomenon seen in college hoops - The team looks otherworldly scoring near or more than 100 points per game, until they get into the tournament and play teams that actually try to play some defense instead of just engaging in a run & gun game ...

[Unknown Participant]

Their smallest margin of victory was beating national runner-up Amherst by 10 goals. Beat Ithaca (who - transitive property alert - beat Cabrini) by 15, beat Springfield by 19.
[/quote]

Although perhaps statistically accurate, just highlights how meaningless such comparisons are - The two teams in question played completely different schedules without a single common opponent; thus comparisons to cherry picked statistics are meaningless. The lacrosse played in the northern half is notoriously known for generally not playing much defense; typical scores in the NESCAC are 25-17, whereas typical scores in games played south of DC are like 11-8 - The margins of victory in those games are skewed. If someone had the time and the interest, a more accurate statistic would be to detail the proportional margins of victory - an 8-2 win is more impressive than a 25-18 even though the latter is a “bigger margin”. I think one of the key differences is that Salisbury was putting up 20+ goals against teams who actually commit to playing defense ... while at the same time holding their opponents on average to less than 10.
It’s the Loyola Marymount phenomenon seen in college hoops - The team looks otherworldly scoring near or more than 100 points per game, until they get into the tournament and play teams that actually try to play some defense instead of just engaging in a run & gun game ...
[/quote]

Meaningless? Is there any other way to compare two teams that did not play each other? Cherry picked? Those are all the actual stats/scores. And blah, blah, blah about defense in the North. I seem to recall Wesleyan doing pretty well in 2018 playing D. Maybe when comparing these two teams we should look at halftime scores before Tufts cleared its bench generally and Salisbury, in some cases, began its comebacks?

And, for you readers, just for the sake of honesty in the news, Salisbury scored 16, 11 and 14 against ranked opponents in 2020 so this quote " ... that Salisbury was putting up 20+ goals against teams who actually commit to playing defense" is more disinformation/propaganda by a (presumably) flying rat fan.

[pcowlax]

Why is an 8-2 win more impressive than 25-18? And the Marymount comparison is obviously meaningless because they were putting up those points in a scrub conference, Tufts was playing in the best D3 conference in the country.

[Dr. Pretorious]

Meaningless? Is there any other way to compare two teams that did not play each other?

That was my point, I guess it didn’t come through. There is no meaningful way to compare two teams that didn’t play each other, have no common opponents etc. A waste of energy. Like the old days people arguing between the AFL/NFL or American League/National League before there was interleague play. Just bar room debate; no statistical way to realistically compare.

I seem to recall Wesleyan doing pretty well in 2018 playing D.

Agree on Wesleyan - But the fact that you have to go back three years to find an outlier team to support the notion that someone in the NESCAC committed to playing defense kind of makes the point, no?

more disinformation/propaganda by a (presumably) flying rat fan.

Geez, sorry if I touched a nerve. Not a Salisbury fan per se but just a fan of good collegiate lax and therefore somewhat objective on these threats. Always get a chuckle how the NESCAC guys immediately go from 0 to 100 at any post not in complete lockstep with your opinion and who dare not kneel down to the altar of the mighty conference, and immediately result to insulting the other person with pejorative and insulting commentary. Always good for a laugh with you guys.

The NESCAC Is clearly a superior conference, most likely the best in the country any given year. That being the case, it’s dumbfounding why the fans are so insecure and have such a razor thin skin. Could it be some deep rooted Ivy envy?
[/quote]

[Dr. Pretorious]

Why is an 8-2 win more impressive than 25-18?

Well geez if I have to explain it ...

[pcowlax]

You are obvious the one with issues with the above ranting email completely out of the blue (not the first for you). The Marymount comparison was a terrible example. They played in a garbage conference, scored tons of points, then ran into a wall in the NCAA when they played good teams and couldn't score like that any more. NESCAC teams spend the whole year playing in an extremely strong (yes, the strongest) conference. Their high scoring offenses were already going against top teams, thus the transition to the tournament is not a jump up in competition (a step down often in the first round). The is born out in how well they do. And yes, please do try to explain why an 8-2 win is more impressive (not just different but more impressive) than a 25-18 win. I am sure a lot of people on here would love to hear this

[Unknown Participant]

Meaningless? Is there any other way to compare two teams that did not play each other?

That was my point, I guess it didn’t come through. There is no meaningful way to compare two teams that didn’t play each other, have no common opponents etc. A waste of energy. Like the old days people arguing between the AFL/NFL or American League/National League before there was interleague play. Just bar room debate; no statistical way to realistically compare.

I seem to recall Wesleyan doing pretty well in 2018 playing D.

Agree on Wesleyan - But the fact that you have to go back three years to find an outlier team to support the notion that someone in the NESCAC committed to playing defense kind of makes the point, no?

more disinformation/propaganda by a (presumably) flying rat fan.

Geez, sorry if I touched a nerve. Not a Salisbury fan per se but just a fan of good collegiate lax and therefore somewhat objective on these threats. Always get a chuckle how the NESCAC guys immediately go from 0 to 100 at any post not in complete lockstep with your opinion and who dare not kneel down to the altar of the mighty conference, and immediately result to insulting the other person with pejorative and insulting commentary. Always good for a laugh with you guys.

The NESCAC Is clearly a superior conference, most likely the best in the country any given year. That being the case, it’s dumbfounding why the fans are so insecure and have such a razor thin skin. Could it be some deep rooted Ivy envy?

[/quote]

Whatever dude. I referred to the 2018 national champion because it jumped to mind (national champion you know and defense was how it got there). Wesleyan's defense was equally tenacious in 2019, it just lost to the 2019 runner up in the semis I believe who played slightly better defense. I didn't use 2020 as Nescac teams barely even played in conference. Most have good to really great D. Your continued belief (and proclamations) that Nescac doesn't play good D because you may have seen Tufts play a few times (Tufts does not play a defense-oriented style) and you are too lazy to look at past results is telling.

[wgdsr]

Why is an 8-2 win more impressive than 25-18?

Well geez if I have to explain it ...

yes?

[FXLax]

Isn’t 25-18 a 7 goal win and 8-2 only a 6 goal win? Not sure - I was a history major

[Tactful Lax]

Let it go, guys. Geeze!

[LarumVictoia]

Hold on now!! Ya'll need to take it easy on Pretorious !! There's a lot of truth to you Tufts fans being thin-skinned - Unknown-Participant, I can almost hear your voice crack when I read your posts "sniff-sniff"- been up all night scouring the stats...

'16 - "Frankly, none of us have quite recovered from them damn flying rats"
'17 - damn flying rats again! NESCAC???
'18 - "The brackets AREN'T FAIR!! - We need to take a good long look at the rules here... cause my Bo's shoulda been in before them damn flying rats"
'19 - Props to Cabrini - ya'll know in your Jumbo hearts them flying rats would of beat your best NESCAC - your best being Amherst
'20 - Bo's on suicide watch cause they knew "THIS WAS O-U-R Y-E-A-R!!" I mean common damn-it!!! You see the score of them "four" games !?!?! I know them damn flying rats were somehow responsible for this pandemic!!

Now quit your whining and instead of blaming some winged varmint, why don't you go spit some of that vitriol at your elitist administration- Man it feels like old times on Laxpower!