Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[Typical Lax Dad]

I don’t think that’s a major part of the thought process when one is talking about lower income, inner city criminals. That behavior sounds more like what a white collar criminal would think or believe. Sounds like it’s a system problem.

To be a bit more clear. I know a couple dozen cops in the DMV area, some were top brass, 1 was a top DC Homicide detective, 1 was a top PG County Homicide detective, and a few others are on the DMV Drug Task force, another had the foot beat in Barry Farms, midnight shift...had to kill a kid who drew a dirty harry 44 on him, every single one of them has said this, as they are all required to go to court. The sit there, in the courtroom, watching it all unfold....time and again.

The criminals and the defense attorneys know how to game the system...the prosecutors and cops are just stuck watching it all unfold. These criminals know if they shut up, say nothing once arrested, they are most likely getting a slap on the wrist.

Partially response below that in DC specific we need to e internally fixing problems first. I know a guy who grew up near the anacostia in the 80s and he’s told me about how kids who walk up and shoot cops daytime in the street back then. Very different place these days as can be seen by the nice townhomes built on 18th & Capitol SE in the 2000s.

The other thing I’d consider is perspective. They may be right but it’s reasonable to think they’ve been conditioned, perhaps in that prior era of violence, to see all people as criminal or suspect and skew their bias of justice a little. Cradle has made this argument that the job changes people numerous time to I know he’d agree with this consideration.

I don’t know the answer other than gentrification, but that’s not right for obvious reasons. What I do know for certain is that the wort violence and conditions of apathy come when people think their lives have no value and theres no place for them. As long as those conditions continue to exist there is no solution to this issue any one of us can solve. But make no mistake that African style. tribal violence happens just as much these days in poor white rural towns as it does in major metro areas. This is social economic first and foremost.

Your last two sentences take us full circle...but the rub, is that many seem to want to give them a pass for their behavior b/c of those same circumstances. Couple that with an educational system that steers them to college...which means they mentally check out b/c of price and often its too late (so they think) for academic acceptance. It's far too easy to make cash hustlin'.

I've always thought that there should a mandatory 6-12 month pre-military (basic life instruction), either post HS Graduation or a semester/Summer while in HS, for everyone to attend. Essentially a level playing field for our young adults to get a foundational base in exercise, nutrition, myers-briggs/IQ type testing to help them identify their special gifts, etc. An added benefit is that it gets those young adults off the streets, just long enough to clear their minds, get away from trouble, and have people speak with them that believe in them. This is why school choice, vouchers, etc gets so much attention....the playing field is indeed not level.

I have been saying for 25 years, post HS civil or military service for 9 months would do wonders for this country. But the prison lobby is strong. It’s cheap labor.

[old salt]

I have been saying for 25 years, post HS civil or military service for 9 months would do wonders for this country.

Would there be special camps for lax recruits ?

[Typical Lax Dad]

I have been saying for 25 years, post HS civil or military service for 9 months would do wonders for this country.

Would there be special camps for lax recruits ?

Why don’t you ask Youth? Why are you asking me?

[old salt]

I have been saying for 25 years, post HS civil or military service for 9 months would do wonders for this country.

Would there be special camps for lax recruits ?

Why don’t you ask Youth? Why are you asking me?

...because his kid signed up for the 4 (or 5) year camp, ....& got to play lax, to boot.

[MDlaxfan76]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

True of the criminals, cradle, the criminals...but not the community. That's the problem with racist policing, it extends to how the non-criminals are treated too.

Including black folks with no weapons being shot, or knees to their neck, or just stopped on the street and frisked for no darn reason of their own doing. Or stopped 'driving when black'...

[Typical Lax Dad]

I have been saying for 25 years, post HS civil or military service for 9 months would do wonders for this country.

Would there be special camps for lax recruits ?

Why don’t you ask Youth? Why are you asking me?

...because his kid signed up for the 4 (or 5) year camp, ....& got to play lax, to boot.

Mine turned all of the service academies down and still played lacrosse to boot....but the issue is beyond YA’s son and mine....did yours play?

[old salt]

I have been saying for 25 years, post HS civil or military service for 9 months would do wonders for this country.

Would there be special camps for lax recruits ?

Why don’t you ask Youth? Why are you asking me?

...because his kid signed up for the 4 (or 5) year camp, ....& got to play lax, to boot.

Mine turned all of the service academies down and still played lacrosse to boot....but the issue is beyond YA’s son and mine....did yours play?

He could have attended Naps or Maps, received the 9 mos boot camp you advocate, then have gone anywhere.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I have been saying for 25 years, post HS civil or military service for 9 months would do wonders for this country.

Would there be special camps for lax recruits ?

Why don’t you ask Youth? Why are you asking me?

...because his kid signed up for the 4 (or 5) year camp, ....& got to play lax, to boot.

Mine turned all of the service academies down and still played lacrosse to boot....but the issue is beyond YA’s son and mine....did yours play?

He could have attended Naps or Maps, received the 9 mos boot camp you advocate, then have gone anywhere.

Could have done a lot of things. That may have been good for him as he was only 17 when he went to college. Did yours play?

[Brooklyn]

True of the criminals, cradle, the criminals...but not the community. That's the problem with racist policing, it extends to how the non-criminals are treated too.

Including black folks with no weapons being shot, or knees to their neck, or just stopped on the street and frisked for no darn reason of their own doing. Or stopped 'driving when black'...

I mentioned the book My Midnight Years: Surviving John Burge's Police Torture Ring ... on the book thread. It should be mandatory reading for all those who still succumb to the delusion that all cops are angels and that it is only 1 or 2 flukes at most that cause trouble. The narrator ends the book with an especially sad tale about how he lost his mom - an innocent lady who did absolutely no wrong whatsoever. The years she prayed and prayed that her innocent son would be spared the death penalty. How her mom died of grief as her innocent grandson lingered on death row. Then when the innocent man was released from prison, his mom (a long time high energy community activist) who had been so sick and so emotionally tortured, could not recognize her son. She was utterly dumbfounded and repeatedly asked, "do I know you?" Just imagine your mom doing that to you.

Today the man survives but he reports how there are still hundreds of innocents his age who have not been released from prison and who made similar reports to those he made about police corruption and torture. Read the other books I've mentioned or go to the many links I have posted over the years. Put yourself in the shoes of those innocents ~ what the hell would you be thinking today?

[cradleandshoot]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

True of the criminals, cradle, the criminals...but not the community. That's the problem with racist policing, it extends to how the non-criminals are treated too.

Including black folks with no weapons being shot, or knees to their neck, or just stopped on the street and frisked for no darn reason of their own doing. Or stopped 'driving when black'...

Or stopped 'driving when black'...

My nephew the former RPD officer would get a kick out of this comment. When you pull a car over the vast majority of the time where is the police car? The police car is behind the vehicle. When the police car is BEHIND the vehicle being pulled over you can't tell the skin color of the individual WHEN YOU CAN"T SEE THE PERSON. Are you practicing "institutional racism by assuming because the car pulled over in a predominately black/hispanic neighborhood means the officer assumes automatically the person driving is black? Good job there MD you demonstrate to perfection the art of stereotyping why police pull people over. Maybe the officer pulled the car over because the car just blew through a red light, the car was speeding, the car was driving with no lights on. Your response never even realizes the absurd possibility that the officer pulled the car over because the officer witnessed a traffic infraction. No the officer clearly pulled the car over because since the car was driving in a predominately black neighborhood, the driver was probably black. It had nothing to do with the car driving 30 mph over the posted speed limit.

[MDlaxfan76]

Yeah, all those black folks are lying about the treatment they receive and what that phrase means.

[RedFromMI]

Yeah, all those black folks are lying about the treatment they receive and what that phrase means.

There is also at least one credible study looking at the difference between who gets stopped in the day (when it is more likely the race of the driver is known) and at night which shows a differential effect in who gets pulled over.

There are jurisdictions where some cops pull over Black people disproportionately - they do exist.

Here is the source: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/polic ... index.html

[MDlaxfan76]

Yeah, all those black folks are lying about the treatment they receive and what that phrase means.

There is also at least one credible study looking at the difference between who gets stopped in the day (when it is more likely the race of the driver is known) and at night which shows a differential effect in who gets pulled over.

There are jurisdictions where some cops pull over Black people disproportionately - they do exist.

Here is the source: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/polic ... index.html

yeah, but cradle has a nephew who says it doesn't happen...

[Brooklyn]

When the police car is BEHIND the vehicle being pulled over you can't tell the skin color of the individual WHEN YOU CAN"T SEE THE PERSON.

Yes you CAN see the person. That's why the cops stop motorists on such a selective basis.

Thanks for the laugh.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

True of the criminals, cradle, the criminals...but not the community. That's the problem with racist policing, it extends to how the non-criminals are treated too.

Including black folks with no weapons being shot, or knees to their neck, or just stopped on the street and frisked for no darn reason of their own doing. Or stopped 'driving when black'...

Or stopped 'driving when black'...

My nephew the former RPD officer would get a kick out of this comment. When you pull a car over the vast majority of the time where is the police car? The police car is behind the vehicle. When the police car is BEHIND the vehicle being pulled over you can't tell the skin color of the individual WHEN YOU CAN"T SEE THE PERSON. Are you practicing "institutional racism by assuming because the car pulled over in a predominately black/hispanic neighborhood means the officer assumes automatically the person driving is black? Good job there MD you demonstrate to perfection the art of stereotyping why police pull people over. Maybe the officer pulled the car over because the car just blew through a red light, the car was speeding, the car was driving with no lights on. Your response never even realizes the absurd possibility that the officer pulled the car over because the officer witnessed a traffic infraction. No the officer clearly pulled the car over because since the car was driving in a predominately black neighborhood, the driver was probably black. It had nothing to do with the car driving 30 mph over the posted speed limit.

https://www.nj.com/politics/2014/01/tim ... ation.html

[youthathletics]

It balances out in the mid-late 20's age demo? Something in that age demo creates higher risk.

FROM: https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/167 ... gures-data

[cradleandshoot]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

True of the criminals, cradle, the criminals...but not the community. That's the problem with racist policing, it extends to how the non-criminals are treated too.

Including black folks with no weapons being shot, or knees to their neck, or just stopped on the street and frisked for no darn reason of their own doing. Or stopped 'driving when black'...

Or stopped 'driving when black'...

My nephew the former RPD officer would get a kick out of this comment. When you pull a car over the vast majority of the time where is the police car? The police car is behind the vehicle. When the police car is BEHIND the vehicle being pulled over you can't tell the skin color of the individual WHEN YOU CAN"T SEE THE PERSON. Are you practicing "institutional racism by assuming because the car pulled over in a predominately black/hispanic neighborhood means the officer assumes automatically the person driving is black? Good job there MD you demonstrate to perfection the art of stereotyping why police pull people over. Maybe the officer pulled the car over because the car just blew through a red light, the car was speeding, the car was driving with no lights on. Your response never even realizes the absurd possibility that the officer pulled the car over because the officer witnessed a traffic infraction. No the officer clearly pulled the car over because since the car was driving in a predominately black neighborhood, the driver was probably black. It had nothing to do with the car driving 30 mph over the posted speed limit.

https://www.nj.com/politics/2014/01/tim ... ation.html

It all becomes anecdotal when your a patrol officer pulling over a vehicle for a traffic stop. When the first words out of the drivers mouth are " you pulled me over because I'm black". No I pulled you over because you were speeding and just blew through that red light. The first words out of the mouth of a cop pulling anyone over today usually are... " Do you know why I pulled you over" I have not been pulled over by a cop in a long time. That is what the first words out of the officers mouth were when I was pulled over. In my case it was always for speeding. When you are pulled over that is another story. I have watched enough episodes of COPs to understand the police can turn into real dickheads. Usually their attitudes corralate directly in proportion to the people they are dealing with. I always get a chuckle out of the folks that have been smoking weed in the car. The cop says I smell weed, you been smoking weed? No officer. How come you have a joint still burning in your ashtray? That ain't my joint officer. Then whose joint is it? I don't know officer but it's not mine. How did it get there? I don't know officer, I never saw that joint before in my life.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

True of the criminals, cradle, the criminals...but not the community. That's the problem with racist policing, it extends to how the non-criminals are treated too.

Including black folks with no weapons being shot, or knees to their neck, or just stopped on the street and frisked for no darn reason of their own doing. Or stopped 'driving when black'...

Or stopped 'driving when black'...

My nephew the former RPD officer would get a kick out of this comment. When you pull a car over the vast majority of the time where is the police car? The police car is behind the vehicle. When the police car is BEHIND the vehicle being pulled over you can't tell the skin color of the individual WHEN YOU CAN"T SEE THE PERSON. Are you practicing "institutional racism by assuming because the car pulled over in a predominately black/hispanic neighborhood means the officer assumes automatically the person driving is black? Good job there MD you demonstrate to perfection the art of stereotyping why police pull people over. Maybe the officer pulled the car over because the car just blew through a red light, the car was speeding, the car was driving with no lights on. Your response never even realizes the absurd possibility that the officer pulled the car over because the officer witnessed a traffic infraction. No the officer clearly pulled the car over because since the car was driving in a predominately black neighborhood, the driver was probably black. It had nothing to do with the car driving 30 mph over the posted speed limit.

https://www.nj.com/politics/2014/01/tim ... ation.html

It all becomes anecdotal when your a patrol officer pulling over a vehicle for a traffic stop. When the first words out of the drivers mouth are " you pulled me over because I'm black". No I pulled you over because you were speeding and just blew through that red light. The first words out of the mouth of a cop pulling anyone over today usually are... " Do you know why I pulled you over" I have not been pulled over by a cop in a long time. That is what the first words out of the officers mouth were when I was pulled over. In my case it was always for speeding. When you are pulled over that is another story. I have watched enough episodes of COPs to understand the police can turn into real dickheads. Usually their attitudes corralate directly in proportion to the people they are dealing with. I always get a chuckle out of the folks that have been smoking weed in the car. The cop says I smell weed, you been smoking weed? No officer. How come you have a joint still burning in your ashtray? That ain't my joint officer. Then whose joint is it? I don't know officer but it's not mine. How did it get there? I don't know officer, I never saw that joint before in my life.

Good for you.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/11/nys-n11.html

[cradleandshoot]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

True of the criminals, cradle, the criminals...but not the community. That's the problem with racist policing, it extends to how the non-criminals are treated too.

Including black folks with no weapons being shot, or knees to their neck, or just stopped on the street and frisked for no darn reason of their own doing. Or stopped 'driving when black'...

Or stopped 'driving when black'...

My nephew the former RPD officer would get a kick out of this comment. When you pull a car over the vast majority of the time where is the police car? The police car is behind the vehicle. When the police car is BEHIND the vehicle being pulled over you can't tell the skin color of the individual WHEN YOU CAN"T SEE THE PERSON. Are you practicing "institutional racism by assuming because the car pulled over in a predominately black/hispanic neighborhood means the officer assumes automatically the person driving is black? Good job there MD you demonstrate to perfection the art of stereotyping why police pull people over. Maybe the officer pulled the car over because the car just blew through a red light, the car was speeding, the car was driving with no lights on. Your response never even realizes the absurd possibility that the officer pulled the car over because the officer witnessed a traffic infraction. No the officer clearly pulled the car over because since the car was driving in a predominately black neighborhood, the driver was probably black. It had nothing to do with the car driving 30 mph over the posted speed limit.

https://www.nj.com/politics/2014/01/tim ... ation.html

It all becomes anecdotal when your a patrol officer pulling over a vehicle for a traffic stop. When the first words out of the drivers mouth are " you pulled me over because I'm black". No I pulled you over because you were speeding and just blew through that red light. The first words out of the mouth of a cop pulling anyone over today usually are... " Do you know why I pulled you over" I have not been pulled over by a cop in a long time. That is what the first words out of the officers mouth were when I was pulled over. In my case it was always for speeding. When you are pulled over that is another story. I have watched enough episodes of COPs to understand the police can turn into real dickheads. Usually their attitudes corralate directly in proportion to the people they are dealing with. I always get a chuckle out of the folks that have been smoking weed in the car. The cop says I smell weed, you been smoking weed? No officer. How come you have a joint still burning in your ashtray? That ain't my joint officer. Then whose joint is it? I don't know officer but it's not mine. How did it get there? I don't know officer, I never saw that joint before in my life.

Good for you.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/11/nys-n11.html

Happy New Year to you and your family TLD. I always appreciate debating the issues of the day with you.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

True of the criminals, cradle, the criminals...but not the community. That's the problem with racist policing, it extends to how the non-criminals are treated too.

Including black folks with no weapons being shot, or knees to their neck, or just stopped on the street and frisked for no darn reason of their own doing. Or stopped 'driving when black'...

Or stopped 'driving when black'...

My nephew the former RPD officer would get a kick out of this comment. When you pull a car over the vast majority of the time where is the police car? The police car is behind the vehicle. When the police car is BEHIND the vehicle being pulled over you can't tell the skin color of the individual WHEN YOU CAN"T SEE THE PERSON. Are you practicing "institutional racism by assuming because the car pulled over in a predominately black/hispanic neighborhood means the officer assumes automatically the person driving is black? Good job there MD you demonstrate to perfection the art of stereotyping why police pull people over. Maybe the officer pulled the car over because the car just blew through a red light, the car was speeding, the car was driving with no lights on. Your response never even realizes the absurd possibility that the officer pulled the car over because the officer witnessed a traffic infraction. No the officer clearly pulled the car over because since the car was driving in a predominately black neighborhood, the driver was probably black. It had nothing to do with the car driving 30 mph over the posted speed limit.

https://www.nj.com/politics/2014/01/tim ... ation.html

It all becomes anecdotal when your a patrol officer pulling over a vehicle for a traffic stop. When the first words out of the drivers mouth are " you pulled me over because I'm black". No I pulled you over because you were speeding and just blew through that red light. The first words out of the mouth of a cop pulling anyone over today usually are... " Do you know why I pulled you over" I have not been pulled over by a cop in a long time. That is what the first words out of the officers mouth were when I was pulled over. In my case it was always for speeding. When you are pulled over that is another story. I have watched enough episodes of COPs to understand the police can turn into real dickheads. Usually their attitudes corralate directly in proportion to the people they are dealing with. I always get a chuckle out of the folks that have been smoking weed in the car. The cop says I smell weed, you been smoking weed? No officer. How come you have a joint still burning in your ashtray? That ain't my joint officer. Then whose joint is it? I don't know officer but it's not mine. How did it get there? I don't know officer, I never saw that joint before in my life.

Good for you.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/11/nys-n11.html

Happy New Year to you and your family TLD. I always appreciate debating the issues of the day with you.

Happy New Year