Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[PizzaSnake]

Walter Scott

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/a-closer- ... 4905283706

[Typical Lax Dad]

Walter Scott

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/a-closer- ... 4905283706

That is a good shoot

[Typical Lax Dad]

[Typical Lax Dad]

Larry, Curly, Moe, and Schemp

[cradleandshoot]

well, you're consistent, cradle.

However, this thread isn't about violent crime, the drug trade, and its victims. Interesting topic certainly but just not this one, right? I've expressed myself plenty on that topic too.

The topic, here, though, is about the causes of, and appropriate responses to, protests-riots against police bigotry and systemic racism.

Sorry, you lost me when a political organization proclaimed their cause to be SBLM. That is the genesis of all of the protests. You know me, I'm a very simple minded individual who believes that WORDS MEAN THINGS. What should the response be for all those other thousands of young black men murdered in the streets of our cities? I am 100 percent for holding any police officer that uses excessive force accountable. Those thousands of other murdered young black men will never see their killers brought to justice. Why, because black folks are intimidated to never snitch. I don't understand the selective outrage. I have never forgotten the cold blooded murder of Latasha Shaw, a young black mother trying to protect her own daughter. Maybe I will believe that BLM when some of the people that witnessed the murder of Ms Shaw also come to the realization that BLM. Excuse me, that should be SBLM..

keep grinding on Ms. Shaw, makes you consistent. There are many thousands of such victims.

You want to discuss violent crime and its victims, start a thread. You want to discuss 'don't snitch' and say it only applies to black folks and you'll find some pushback, I think...but those aren't the topics of this thread, though you're free to discuss what you want...

As to BLM, the issue they are addressing is specific to police violence against blacks, not all violence in which blacks are the victims, nor even non-police violence, racially motivated violence against blacks.

Bothers you that that's their meaning in the phrase BLM? Ahh well...

What bothers me is a name being used that does not represent what the group stands for. My suggestion for the organization is really very simple and strait forward. Some Black Lives Matter, other black lives they don't care about that much.

I hate to call you dense or a jerk about this, cradle, but that's actually what I think on this insistence that BLM be about more than police abuse of black folks, particularly the killing of unarmed black men and women.

I get it, you care about any life lost needlessly...right? Me too. But stop trying to fit all such needlessly lost lives into the purpose of any particular group or organization.

Otherwise, it does just come across as being critical of folks who are demonstrating and organizing against a particular type of loss, a particular type of abuse. And yeah, feels like it's got a racist tinge to be so exercised about it. Not so sure you'd be all bent out of shape about the American Cancer Society...heck, why don't they care about heart attacks?

So if the SBLM folks are not about standing up for the rights of all black Americans who else will? They have a platform to change all peoples minds and attitudes. That includes police brutality and the brutality of way too many black people against their own friends and neighbors. Are you telling me that the horrendous nature of black on black crime is an issue to be dealt with on another day and in another time? If you are that is pure bullchit and you know it. How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ne ... &FORM=VIRE

[MDlaxfan76]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

[cradleandshoot]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

[Farfromgeneva]

Well I’ll spare the liberal wing from citing a tiny and weak form comparison myself but pointing out that perhaps the nature of jail is the issue given the low rate (per capita) of violent crime in Denmark (which is a country of 6mm people so I won’t defend an argument that it’s too small to be comparable) which correlated to their type of incarceration which includes weekend leave, tv, bikes, etc.

Perhaps the police and prison need to be reformed simultaneously. I’d also point to a court system that has performed as ours has historically and prosecutorial systems built on the wrong incentives. Also the revolving door to white collar should have the same constraints as the iron triangle has (in theory). Prosecutors only care about W/L record and I truly believe more than half would convict an innocent person in an easy to win and deal a more destructive criminal with a complex case. Just because defense attorneys have to advocate for their clients I think many misunderstand the point of a DA which isn’t to “advocate” so much as represent the community and it’s interests and in this area we have an agency problem far larger than in corporate America.

[youthathletics]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

Well said cradle. Ask any prosecutor in a criminal case what is the toughest thing to get and it'll be ' the truth'. Criminals, for the most part do not rat, it is their death sentence if they do. This starts the escalation of tension on the streets. The criminals hate the police because they got caught and are rats, they know an attorney will give them an expensive get our of jail card, and now they are even more emboldened once back on the street.

[Farfromgeneva]

I don’t think that’s a major part of the thought process when one is talking about lower income, inner city criminals. That behavior sounds more like what a white collar criminal would think or believe. Sounds like it’s a system problem.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

Well said cradle. Ask any prosecutor in a criminal case what is the toughest thing to get and it'll be ' the truth'. Criminals, for the most part do not rat, it is their death sentence if they do. This starts the escalation of tension on the streets. The criminals hate the police because they got caught and are rats, they know an attorney will give them an expensive get our of jail card, and now they are even more emboldened once back on the street.

And you are an expert on this how? Watching The Wire?

[youthathletics]

I don’t think that’s a major part of the thought process when one is talking about lower income, inner city criminals. That behavior sounds more like what a white collar criminal would think or believe. Sounds like it’s a system problem.

To be a bit more clear. I know a couple dozen cops in the DMV area, some were top brass, 1 was a top DC Homicide detective, 1 was a top PG County Homicide detective, and a few others are on the DMV Drug Task force, another had the foot beat in Barry Farms, midnight shift...had to kill a kid who drew a dirty harry 44 on him, every single one of them has said this, as they are all required to go to court. The sit there, in the courtroom, watching it all unfold....time and again.

The criminals and the defense attorneys know how to game the system...the prosecutors and cops are just stuck watching it all unfold. These criminals know if they shut up, say nothing once arrested, they are most likely getting a slap on the wrist.

[youthathletics]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

Well said cradle. Ask any prosecutor in a criminal case what is the toughest thing to get and it'll be ' the truth'. Criminals, for the most part do not rat, it is their death sentence if they do. This starts the escalation of tension on the streets. The criminals hate the police because they got caught and are rats, they know an attorney will give them an expensive get our of jail card, and now they are even more emboldened once back on the street.

And you are an expert on this how? Watching The Wire?

What's a matter, couldn't find a google link to throw shade?

[Typical Lax Dad]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

That's indeed the question, cradle.

The short answer is for the police to be trustworthy...worthy of the trust.
And that starts with admitting that they have not been.

The "how" to build trust has many parts, and will take time, but right away holding police who kill unarmed people fully accountable, no more shielding bad cops from the same disciplines as would occur with anyone else, removing from service those who persist in racist attitudes and behaviors, hiring and training people of color from within the communities served, and focusing on community policing...out of the car, walking the streets, knowing the community.

Other police reforms include building a social worker/psychologist element into responses rather than the heavily armed response to every call, better training of all police in deescalation techniques, the recognition of mental issues, etc.

BTW, this costs MORE money not less, but the payoff will be worth it. As a society, we need to recognize that cities, typically don't have the financial resources to do this without state and federal support.

Personally, I also think that the only way to remove the scourge of massive violence from communities is to decriminalize drug use and to regulate what we now consider to be illegal drugs. Treat drug use as a medical issue, not a criminal one, and take the profit out of the illicit trade. Stop incarcerating young men trying to support their families. Do that and I think all the other measures are paid for multiple times over.

But your question also has a broader context which is systemic racism, much of which has left a legacy of poverty. That's an even longer post...enough for this one.

When I was a teenager we didn't trust the cops, the generation before me never trusted the cops and the generation before that didn't trust the cops and so on and so forth. The people doing bad things and committing crimes are never going to trust the cops. That is the nature of the beast my friend. You are glibly here asking for the impossible, that with a kinder and gentler police force you will create a kinder and gentler kind of criminal. All of the police reforms on the planet are never going to change the nature of the people that break the law. You can create the most ethical police force the world has ever known, they will still have to deal with the same criminal element that will lie, cheat and do everything in their power to stay out of jail. The kindest and most gentle police officer in the world still has to deal with the corner drug dealer who enjoys playing the same cat and mouse game with law enforcement everyday. When that kinder and gentler officer arrests that drug dealer on Monday and Tuesday the same drug dealer is back out on the street corner doing business.

Well said cradle. Ask any prosecutor in a criminal case what is the toughest thing to get and it'll be ' the truth'. Criminals, for the most part do not rat, it is their death sentence if they do. This starts the escalation of tension on the streets. The criminals hate the police because they got caught and are rats, they know an attorney will give them an expensive get our of jail card, and now they are even more emboldened once back on the street.

And you are an expert on this how? Watching The Wire?

What's a matter, couldn't find a google link to throw shade?

Just wondering how you developed your insight?

[Farfromgeneva]

Well part of that is the Federal management of the DC jail no? It was taken over in the 90s (I believe maybe 2000s) by the Feds as it was so bad in the 80s there. But now it holds tons of federal prisoners awaiting sentence or pickup/delivery to longer term home. Super overcrowded. I know for a fact that there was a plumbing issue in spring of 2005 in the DC jail where inmates didn’t have access to clean water (1x a day ice) for more than half a week which never became public. The judges are clowns in DC too and have been since at least I was living there. Still better than when Sugar Ray Leonard’s wife was running with a kingpin around eastern market in the 80s at all.

But for DC proper the problem is the system including ten judges and das office not just the other sidE. My position is we clean up what wE can control and See how the rest responds

[Brooklyn]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

This should be the easiest thing in the world to do ~ very simply, earn that trust. Trust is not a birth right nor an entitlement. It must be earned. Police have failed to do so. Selective enforcement of the law, corruption, drug dealing, shooting/killing/torturing innocents, coverups, omerta, bribery, extortion ~ all examples of why police cannot and will not be trusted.

Don't try to get blacks to trust cops. Make the cops earn that trust. Problem solved.

[Farfromgeneva]

I don’t think that’s a major part of the thought process when one is talking about lower income, inner city criminals. That behavior sounds more like what a white collar criminal would think or believe. Sounds like it’s a system problem.

To be a bit more clear. I know a couple dozen cops in the DMV area, some were top brass, 1 was a top DC Homicide detective, 1 was a top PG County Homicide detective, and a few others are on the DMV Drug Task force, another had the foot beat in Barry Farms, midnight shift...had to kill a kid who drew a dirty harry 44 on him, every single one of them has said this, as they are all required to go to court. The sit there, in the courtroom, watching it all unfold....time and again.

The criminals and the defense attorneys know how to game the system...the prosecutors and cops are just stuck watching it all unfold. These criminals know if they shut up, say nothing once arrested, they are most likely getting a slap on the wrist.

Partially response below that in DC specific we need to e internally fixing problems first. I know a guy who grew up near the anacostia in the 80s and he’s told me about how kids who walk up and shoot cops daytime in the street back then. Very different place these days as can be seen by the nice townhomes built on 18th & Capitol SE in the 2000s.

The other thing I’d consider is perspective. They may be right but it’s reasonable to think they’ve been conditioned, perhaps in that prior era of violence, to see all people as criminal or suspect and skew their bias of justice a little. Cradle has made this argument that the job changes people numerous time to I know he’d agree with this consideration.

I don’t know the answer other than gentrification, but that’s not right for obvious reasons. What I do know for certain is that the wort violence and conditions of apathy come when people think their lives have no value and theres no place for them. As long as those conditions continue to exist there is no solution to this issue any one of us can solve. But make no mistake that African style. tribal violence happens just as much these days in poor white rural towns as it does in major metro areas. This is social economic first and foremost.

[Farfromgeneva]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

This should be the easiest thing in the world to do ~ very simply, earn that trust. Trust is not a birth right nor an entitlement. It must be earned. Police have failed to do so. Selective enforcement of the law, corruption, drug dealing, shooting/killing/torturing innocents, coverups, omerta, bribery, extortion ~ all examples of why police cannot and will not be trusted.

Don't try to get blacks to trust cops. Make the cops earn that trust. Problem solved.

You steal that from Jon Oliver?

But yes citizens get the benefit of the doubt over their employees. As tax payers.

[Brooklyn]

How do we as a nation get black America to trust in and support the police, many of whom are white?

This should be the easiest thing in the world to do ~ very simply, earn that trust. Trust is not a birth right nor an entitlement. It must be earned. Police have failed to do so. Selective enforcement of the law, corruption, drug dealing, shooting/killing/torturing innocents, coverups, omerta, bribery, extortion ~ all examples of why police cannot and will not be trusted.

Don't try to get blacks to trust cops. Make the cops earn that trust. Problem solved.

You steal that from Jon Oliver?

But yes citizens get the benefit of the doubt over their employees. As tax payers.

Nope. Been saying it for years. Even mentioned it a couple of times on our old LP forum. Most likely you missed it because the forum had a certain character who would delete anything he didn't like, especially if I wrote it.

[youthathletics]

I don’t think that’s a major part of the thought process when one is talking about lower income, inner city criminals. That behavior sounds more like what a white collar criminal would think or believe. Sounds like it’s a system problem.

To be a bit more clear. I know a couple dozen cops in the DMV area, some were top brass, 1 was a top DC Homicide detective, 1 was a top PG County Homicide detective, and a few others are on the DMV Drug Task force, another had the foot beat in Barry Farms, midnight shift...had to kill a kid who drew a dirty harry 44 on him, every single one of them has said this, as they are all required to go to court. The sit there, in the courtroom, watching it all unfold....time and again.

The criminals and the defense attorneys know how to game the system...the prosecutors and cops are just stuck watching it all unfold. These criminals know if they shut up, say nothing once arrested, they are most likely getting a slap on the wrist.

Partially response below that in DC specific we need to e internally fixing problems first. I know a guy who grew up near the anacostia in the 80s and he’s told me about how kids who walk up and shoot cops daytime in the street back then. Very different place these days as can be seen by the nice townhomes built on 18th & Capitol SE in the 2000s.

The other thing I’d consider is perspective. They may be right but it’s reasonable to think they’ve been conditioned, perhaps in that prior era of violence, to see all people as criminal or suspect and skew their bias of justice a little. Cradle has made this argument that the job changes people numerous time to I know he’d agree with this consideration.

I don’t know the answer other than gentrification, but that’s not right for obvious reasons. What I do know for certain is that the wort violence and conditions of apathy come when people think their lives have no value and theres no place for them. As long as those conditions continue to exist there is no solution to this issue any one of us can solve. But make no mistake that African style. tribal violence happens just as much these days in poor white rural towns as it does in major metro areas. This is social economic first and foremost.

Your last two sentences take us full circle...but the rub, is that many seem to want to give them a pass for their behavior b/c of those same circumstances. Couple that with an educational system that steers them to college...which means they mentally check out b/c of price and often its too late (so they think) for academic acceptance. It's far too easy to make cash hustlin'.

I've always thought that there should a mandatory 6-12 month pre-military (basic life instruction), either post HS Graduation or a semester/Summer while in HS, for everyone to attend. Essentially a level playing field for our young adults to get a foundational base in exercise, nutrition, myers-briggs/IQ type testing to help them identify their special gifts, etc. An added benefit is that it gets those young adults off the streets, just long enough to clear their minds, get away from trouble, and have people speak with them that believe in them. This is why school choice, vouchers, etc gets so much attention....the playing field is indeed not level.