"The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

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dislaxxic
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by dislaxxic »

JOHN DURHAM AND THE FIRST FIGHT OVER A DOCTORED MEMCON OF TRUMP’S MEETINGS WITH RUSSIA

(Posting the whole thing for Salty's benefit...)
A year ago, John Durham was investigating who leaked the fact that Mike Flynn had secretly worked with Russia to undermine sanctions that served, in part, to punish Russia for helping Trump get elected. Mike Flynn and KT McFarland had been claiming that David Ignatius forced them to lie about conversations that they made active efforts to cover-up even when they were secret, an obviously nonsense claim, but one that DOJ adopted as credible nevertheless.

The problem with that prong of the investigation (even beyond the fact that Flynn and McFarland were already covering Flynn’s calls before they had been made public) — as I pointed out when it was reported — that the most likely sources of the news that Flynn had been having secret conversations with the Ambassador were several groups that could leak this information legally: Original Classification Authorities, outgoing or not, or members of Congress. For the record, Peter Strzok and Lisa Page appear to have assumed the leak came from Congress. But if James Clapper or Jim Comey or another OCA leaked it as part of a counterintelligence inquiry into why Flynn did that, it would be entirely legal. All the more so given that Trump was not yet in office.

Given the new details we have on the Durham investigation — including yet more proof he and his investigators grossly misunderstand counterintelligence — I’d like to return to another leak: that Trump shared highly classified Israeli intelligence with Sergey Lavrov in their meeting on May 10, 2017. Given recent events, I think there is a decent chance that Durham investigated and may still be investigating this one, too.

As I noted, among the last Mueller 302s released to BuzzFeed were three or four that dealt with this leak, a coincidence in timing that is among the reasons I suspect Durham may have reviewed these 302s. They first described how after a meeting around the time Jim Comey was fired, an FBI counterintelligence detailee to the White House got called into Acting Homeland Security Advisor John Daly’s office after a meeting and grilled in a way that the detailee seemed to find inappropriate. Among other things, Daly asked the detailee what he thought of Trump’s decision to fire Comey.

A second interview with the detailee conducted on the same day appears to describe the aftermath of the meeting on May 10, 2017, at which Trump shared this intelligence. It appears the detailee read the MemCom of the meeting and realized what Trump had done. He appears to have first alerted his boss of what happened (it’s unclear whether that boss was at the White House or FBI), and then escalated it. He tried to tell Tom Bossert, but instead told Daly, which led to the grilling by Daly laid out in the first interview. After that meeting, the detailee told Bossert what happened. The detailee’s notice to Bossert led him to take measures to minimize the damage, as described by the original report on the meeting.

Senior White House officials appeared to recognize quickly that Trump had overstepped and moved to contain the potential fallout. Thomas P. Bossert, assistant to the president for homeland security and counterterrorism, placed calls to the directors of the CIA and the NSA, the services most directly involved in the intelligence-sharing arrangement with the partner.

One of Bossert’s subordinates also called for the problematic portion of Trump’s discussion to be stricken from internal memos and for the full transcript to be limited to a small circle of recipients, efforts to prevent sensitive details from being disseminated further or leaked.

Over two years before similar events would lead to impeachment, Trump’s aides were trying to doctor the record of his calls with Russia to hide how he had damaged our allies.

According to the 302, Bossert applauded the detailee for alerting him of the problem. “Thank god you came to us.”

But then after the story leaked to the WaPo and NYT, the detailee was summoned to Bossert’s office, only to be grilled by both Bossert and Daly. After the detailee was grilled for 20-30 minutes, someone else was, as well. Almost immediately after his grilling, the detailee saw HR McMaster give a press conference at which, per the detailee, McMaster “gave a misleading account of what happened during TRUMP’s meeting with LAVROV.” Like Flynn had earlier that year, McMaster was lying publicly about something the Russians knew was a lie.

After he was grilled, the detailee appears to have informed FBI chain of command, including Bill Priestap.

Shortly thereafter, it appears that the detailee learned from Bossert that he was not getting a job he expected. The detailee asked when that decision was made, Bossert appears to have lied either about the job offer or about the decision to alter the MemCon in real time.

Not long after, the detailee left the NSC. Before he did, he put copies of emails recording all this as well as the partially redacted MemCon he had seen in a safe. The 302 suggests that the White House fired all the other people who had seen the MemCon.

Among the other 302s released last week include a record of FBI obtaining copies of Bill Priestap’s discussions with Ezra Cohen-Watnick and what appears to be the detailee at the time, which almost certainly includes notes relaying the events surrounding the MemCon. There’s also an almost entirely redacted 302 from Ted Gistaro, which was at least his second interview. Gistaro was Trump’s briefer both at Mar-a-Lago during the Transition period when Flynn was secretly calling Sergey Kislyak and probably still during the May 2017 period. Another 302 might be the FBI picking up the documents that the detailee had left behind.

All that is to say that among the very last documents that Bill Barr’s DOJ cleared for public release deal with a very complex set of problems central to questions of Trump’s relationship with Russia during the days that FBI would expand its counterintelligence investigation to incorporate Trump, as well. There’s the matter of the leak, which has never been charged. The original WaPo, which appears to have relied on more sources, cites both current and former officials, including at least one who remained close to Trump officials.

President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

[snip]

“It is all kind of shocking,” said a former senior U.S. official who is close to current administration officials. “Trump seems to be very reckless and doesn’t grasp the gravity of the things he’s dealing with, especially when it comes to intelligence and national security. And it’s all clouded because of this problem he has with Russia.”

[snip]

“Russia could identify our sources or techniques,” the senior U.S. official said.

A former intelligence official who handled high-level intelligence on Russia said that given the clues Trump provided, “I don’t think that it would be that hard [for Russian spy services] to figure this out.”

Given that Bossert called NSA and CIA to alert them, there would be many candidates for this, including the OCAs for the intelligence and the partnership with our ally. Indeed, the journalists on the original story cover CIA and the Pentagon, not FBI. But the grilling of the detailee suggests that the White House suspected him.

Then there’s the matter of what the FBI should do with this information — and it seems fairly clear that the detailee was one if not the primary source of the information for the people overseeing the Crossfire Hurricane investigation. It is absolutely within Trump’s right to give our enemies classified information. It also undoubtedly damages the US (as the Trump-friendly source[s] for the story seem to agree).

If Andrew McCabe included this exchange among the things he considered before opening a counterintelligence investigation into Trump, I can see how Durham — who has exhibited over and over that he doesn’t understand counterintelligence — would deem it inappropriate, particularly if egged on by Bill Barr. If an FBI counterintelligence detailee at the White House had a role in its dissemination, all the more so.

But I can also see how, from a counterintelligence investigation, McMaster’s lies about this (on behalf of Trump) would raise concerns about Trump’s compromise. As with Flynn before him, the Russians would know that Trump was lying about his coziness with Russia.

Barr has set Durham up such that he can issue a report that the Attorney General — whoever it is — will be expected to make public (though if the report violates the rules that got Jim Comey fired, there would be a good excuse not to). If this is part of Durham’s investigation, Barr may be trying to suggest that the counterintelligence investigation into Trump was wholly inappropriate.

There’s a problem with that, of course. Trump had already probably committed a crime in working on a pardon for Julian Assange, well before he was even elected. That is, neither the leak to Ignatius (by whomever) nor the leak about the Russian meeting (by whomever) can be said to have inappropriately kicked off the counterintelligence investigation into Trump. His actions in October 2016 had already done that.

But, even if Durham showed any inkling of understanding of the counterintelligence matters he is investigating, there’s no reason to believe he would know that there are seemingly ongoing matters that implicate Trump even before he was elected.

And if this is Barr’s play, of course, it may be undercut once Trump leaves office. Already, HR McMaster has, years later, criticized Trump’s efforts to coddle Russia. If asked to do so under oath in the next Congress, he may have far more to say about the damage Trump did to the country because he was so insecure about Russia’s help in the election.

Update: Bill Leonard, the former head of ISOO (and as such the guy who was in charge of the entire US classification system during the W administration), has corrected me on my assertion that Trump could legally share this information. He could under US law, but doing so violated international law. He explains:

Based upon reporting, the information Trump compromised was provided to the U.S. by an intelligence partner pursuant to a bilateral agreement. Under international law, this bilateral executive agreement obligated the U.S. to protect the information. Within the U.S., we have elected to utilize the classification system to protect such shared information.
While as President, Trump is free to abrogate the bilateral agreement, there is no indication that this was his intent. Thus, pursuant to International law, he was obligated to protect it which he clearly failed to do.
Reverse the situation. Foreign leaders do not have the right to unilaterally disclose U.S. classified information that has been shared with their country pursuant to a bilateral agreement. The same restrictions pertain to a U.S. president.
Classification is but one of the many authorities this president has abused. It needs to be called out as such.
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old salt
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by old salt »

dislaxxic wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:44 pm JOHN DURHAM AND THE FIRST FIGHT OVER A DOCTORED MEMCON OF TRUMP’S MEETINGS WITH RUSSIA

(Posting the whole thing for Salty's benefit...)
Yawn. Save the bandwidth dis. My browser works.
Sure the leak could have been legal if the OCA or above authorized it.
The issue is how widely was it disseminated within the govt.
Such intercepts or wiretaps would be extremely limited distribution or access.
Maybe Obama ok'd the leak, so that it was done "by the book."
Last edited by old salt on Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:58 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:44 pm JOHN DURHAM AND THE FIRST FIGHT OVER A DOCTORED MEMCON OF TRUMP’S MEETINGS WITH RUSSIA

(Posting the whole thing for Salty's benefit...)
Yawn. Save the bandwidth dis. My browser works.
Sure the leak could have been legal if the OCA or above authorized it.
Maybe Obama ok'd it so that it was by the book.
:(
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by dislaxxic »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:00 pm
old salt wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:58 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:44 pm JOHN DURHAM AND THE FIRST FIGHT OVER A DOCTORED MEMCON OF TRUMP’S MEETINGS WITH RUSSIA

(Posting the whole thing for Salty's benefit...)
Yawn. Save the bandwidth dis. My browser works.
Sure the leak could have been legal if the OCA or above authorized it.
Maybe Obama ok'd it so that it was by the book.
:(
Right, TLD...it's about the leak, not the traitorous behavior by our "projected winner drump" and some of his henchmen...sad...

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by old salt »

dislaxxic wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:04 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:00 pm
old salt wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:58 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:44 pm JOHN DURHAM AND THE FIRST FIGHT OVER A DOCTORED MEMCON OF TRUMP’S MEETINGS WITH RUSSIA

(Posting the whole thing for Salty's benefit...)
Yawn. Save the bandwidth dis. My browser works.
Sure the leak could have been legal if the OCA or above authorized it.
The issue is how widely was it disseminated within the govt.
Such intercepts or wiretaps would be extremely limited distribution or access.
Maybe Obama ok'd the leak, so that it was done "by the book."
:(
Right, TLD...it's about the leak, not the traitorous behavior by our "projected winner drump" and some of his henchmen...sad.....
Right. Encouraging Russia not to overreact & de-escalating the situation with Russia, at the start of his Presidency, was an act of treason by Trump.

How does that idiotic Russopobic perspective look 4 years later ?
How has Russia advanced the past 4 years at the expense of the US, under traitor Trump ?
Who has taken the lead in containing Russia, militarily & economically ? Certainly not our EU/NATO allies.
They lobby us to back off on sanctions, press ahead with Nordstream & complain about US Army tank carriers clogging their roads as we shuttle our armored brigades back & forth to their E front every 9 mos. How are things going for Russia in their conquest of Ukraine ? How much election interference from Russia was there in 2020, compared to 2016 ? How effective was it ?

Maybe it's time to put aside the phony Russian boogeyman political narrative, & move along. Mission Accomplished. It served it's purpose.
We're still full in for NATO. Russia remains contained. Even our token drawdown (actually a reshuffle) of US troops in Germany won't happen.
We're still doing more, while our EU/NATO allies do little. They can now breath easy & resume free riding. They waited out Trump.

It's time to focus our attention on the threat from China. Fortunately, Trump acted upon Obama's pivot to Asia. Under Obama, it was just talk. Under Trump, it was force re-deployments, operations with old & new Indio-Pacific allies, military intimidation of N Korea & trade sanctions on China. Let's see how Biden follows through on Obama's pivot to Asia & stands up to his family business associates in China.

C'mon man -- they're not bad folks.

Check out the presentation by the Chinese economist in the first embedded video :
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker- ... -dongsheng
Last edited by old salt on Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by youthathletics »

seacoaster wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:43 pm Flynn case dismissed as moot:

https://twitter.com/tracybeanz/status/1 ... 97/photo/1
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A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by njbill »

Dismissed, but not without some parting shots by Sullivan in his 43 page decision.

Among other things, he suggests he would have denied Barr's motion to dismiss.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/08/politics ... index.html
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

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PMM breaks down Judge Sullivan's opinion...

IN HIS MIKE FLYNN OPINION, EMMET SULLIVAN MADE A FINDING OF FACT AGAINST BILLY BARR’S NEW REALITY
In these passages, District Court Judge Emmet Sullivan finds as fact that:

- The government’s assertion that there was confusion surrounding Mike Flynn’s interview does not change that his lies were material.
- DOJ’s [draft] conclusion that Flynn was not an agent of Russia does not change that his lies were material.
- The evidence impeaching Peter Strzok and others does not change that Flynn’s lies were material (and, as Sullivan notes, even the government agreed before Flynn pled guilty).
- Nothing in the public record substantiates that the 302 of Janaury 24, 2017 Flynn’s interview does not accurately reflect what happened in the interview.
- Flynn’s claims to be forgetful are not consistent with the fact that, as the incoming National Security Advisor, he personally asked Sergey Kislyak to undermine President Obama’s policy before Trump took office.
- Nothing in Bill Priestap’s notes call into question the legitimacy of the Mike Flynn interview.
- The government could have relied on Mike Flynn’s admissions at trial.

One way to think about this language is that Billy Barr attempted to create a new set of facts by submitting documents from the Jeffrey Jensen investigation to Sullivan’s docket and making false claims about them, thereby attempting to annul the set of facts that led DOJ (even DOJ under Bill Barr, repeatedly) to argue that Mike Flynn’s lies were serious. Judge Sullivan is having none of Billy Barr’s new reality, in significant part because DOJ has not explained what changed from its prior assertions of fact and partly because none of the claims it has made about the so-called new evidence refutes DOJ’s prior representations.

These findings of fact may have a more specific effect, though. Billy Barr has served up his different set of facts and based off those, John Durham is attempting to criminalize the decisions of the people that prosecuted Mike Flynn for telling the FBI material lies. DOJ generally has no basis to appeal Sullivan’s findings, because its position in the docket is (as Sullivan notes repeatedly) moot. But Durham has even less ability to contest Sullivan’s findings of fact; he has no standing.

So unless DOJ finds a way around the fact that they themselves have mooted any further involvement before Judge Sullivan, then, any further investigation into the circumstances of Flynn’s prosecution will have to contend with the fact that a judge has already found a number of key premises entertained by those pushing the investigation into the investigation to be false.

At least as of right now, it is not relevant to Trump’s pardon of Mike Flynn. But one thing Sullivan did in his opinion was to reject Billy Barr’s new reality in a way that may be invoked for any related matters before DC District courts.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by youthathletics »

A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

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"final gratuitous act." Dude. He lied to a Federal Freaking judge. In open court. And then was bailed out by his buddy, the President, for lying to a Federal Judge.

The damage that your team has done over the last four years is going to echo for decades.

Now? If you lied to a Federal judge? Oh, well, "it's the judge's fault" that you did that.


Oh, that makes perfect sense.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

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Trumpist shill piece.
The guy had a decent rep going into this morass, IMO he'll never live it down.

A lot of others the same.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by njbill »

Had Barr not filed his unsupportable motion to dismiss, I think Sullivan would have simply dismissed the case against Flynn after the T**** pardon.

But Sullivan was correct to issue a lengthy opinion with a point by point rebuttal of Barr’s motion which never should have been filed. And to suggest he would’ve denied the motion.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

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MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:37 pm
Trumpist shill piece.
The guy had a decent rep going into this morass, IMO he'll never live it down.

A lot of others the same.
Yeah, to the extent he had a reasonably good reputation before the Trump years, he has dug a ditch out of which he will at least be years climbing out.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by old salt »

seacoaster wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:37 pm
Trumpist shill piece.
The guy had a decent rep going into this morass, IMO he'll never live it down.

A lot of others the same.
Yeah, to the extent he had a reasonably good reputation before the Trump years, he has dug a ditch out of which he will at least be years climbing out.
:lol: ...he was distinguished enough to be a regular on BBC. Now, he's suddenly stupid. The Cadaver Synod was perfect.

At least when Pope Stephen pulled out the dead body of Pope Formosus in the year 897, he gave his predecessor a trial — the “Cadaver Synod.” After being found guilty, three of Formosus’s fingers were severed before his corpse was thrown into the Tiber River.

Judge Sullivan’s modern version of the “Cadaver Synod" may leave Flynn’s fingers intact — but I cannot say the same for our judicial system.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by old salt »

How many Congress members have Russian interns on their staff ?
https://www.axios.com/china-spy-califor ... af589.html

Fang helped place at least one intern in Swalwell's office, according to those same two people, and interacted with Swalwell at multiple events over the course of several years.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:47 pm
seacoaster wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:37 pm
Trumpist shill piece.
The guy had a decent rep going into this morass, IMO he'll never live it down.

A lot of others the same.
Yeah, to the extent he had a reasonably good reputation before the Trump years, he has dug a ditch out of which he will at least be years climbing out.
:lol: ...he was distinguished enough to be a regular on BBC. Now, he's suddenly stupid. The Cadaver Synod was perfect.

At least when Pope Stephen pulled out the dead body of Pope Formosus in the year 897, he gave his predecessor a trial — the “Cadaver Synod.” After being found guilty, three of Formosus’s fingers were severed before his corpse was thrown into the Tiber River.

Judge Sullivan’s modern version of the “Cadaver Synod" may leave Flynn’s fingers intact — but I cannot say the same for our judicial system.
ohhh, he's not "stupid"...which makes it worse, not better.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:04 pm How many Congress members have Russian interns on their staff ?
https://www.axios.com/china-spy-califor ... af589.html

Fang helped place at least one intern in Swalwell's office, according to those same two people, and interacted with Swalwell at multiple events over the course of several years.
I dunno, do you?

Was the intern an American or from China?
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:04 pm How many Congress members have Russian interns on their staff ?
https://www.axios.com/china-spy-califor ... af589.html

Fang helped place at least one intern in Swalwell's office, according to those same two people, and interacted with Swalwell at multiple events over the course of several years.
It doesn’t matter anymore.
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Re: "The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

Post by calourie »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:26 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:04 pm How many Congress members have Russian interns on their staff ?
https://www.axios.com/china-spy-califor ... af589.html

Fang helped place at least one intern in Swalwell's office, according to those same two people, and interacted with Swalwell at multiple events over the course of several years.
It doesn’t matter anymore.


https://www.axios.com/china-spy-califor ... af589.html

Good article in Axios letting us know that Swalwell cut all ties with Fand and associates when given the heads up by the FBI that they smelled a rat. Just what honest Americans often do when informed of such matters by the FBI. Not so much in Trump world.
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