2020 Elections - Trump FIRED

[Farfromgeneva]

Jaime Harrison on Lindsey Graham to CNN: "There is no reason, no reason whatsoever, that he should be calling the Secretary of State in Georgia asking about an election and recount that they're in the midst of."

Lindsey Graham is a walking, breathing joke of a person. He makes the state of South Carolina look bad on a daily basis.

[PizzaSnake]

Jaime Harrison on Lindsey Graham to CNN: "There is no reason, no reason whatsoever, that he should be calling the Secretary of State in Georgia asking about an election and recount that they're in the midst of."

Lindsey Graham is a walking, breathing joke of a person. He makes the state of South Carolina look bad on a daily basis.

Why limit it to SC? He makes the entire U.S. look like a bunch of fools...which, of course, 72+million have amply demonstrated recently.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/17/politics ... index.html

Coup attempt!

[njbill]

The Inqy on The Rudy Show today.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/trump-pen ... 01117.html

[MDlaxfan76]

Even here, with the election called by every credible and creditable source available at this point, General Kelly has to throw in the softening cushion of "be it Biden or Trump." True to form: General Kelly's association with Trump will be the soil that highlights his obituary someday. Just remarkably sad. ETTD.

He included that to encourage die hard Trump supporters to throw in the towel. He'll be remembered as someone who answered the call to serve (again) & did the best he could for the country, for as long as he could.

Sorry, I missed this response. I'm not sure how you know or if you know that General Kelly included that phrase for that purpose.

I don't doubt Kelly's motivation for taking the DHS job or the COS job -- I can agree that he answered the call of duty for honorable purposes. I just know that both effectively diminished him in the eyes of a lot of Americans, which is the near uniform way of things with anyone who gets near Trump. For as long as he could? Not so sure I agree. I disagree with what I gather you consider an honorable silence after his departure from the White House. General Kelly knew to a moral certainty that the President was a clear and present danger to the country, to the national welfare, and I think had an obligation to indicate to the public that this was the case. We can agree to disagree about that.

Perhaps Gen Kelly judged it would be less damaging to quietly let Trump pass from the scene. He remains true to the military ethos of not being openly critical of those in the chain of command of which you are part.

And when does this purportedly 'honorable' ethos fail to be more important than other obligations?

Where's that line, Salty? Is there no line?

What a pile of BS.

Kelly is not in the military nor was he when he was in the White House. He had and has no obligation to 'not criticize' if he knows that Trump is a danger to our democracy and to our national security and all the more so if he was to be elected a second time.

"pass quietly from the scene"...anyone expecting Trump to do that has to be stupid, and I don't think that's true of Kelly. And of course, even losing the election was surely not to be assumed, regardless of polls.

There are times MD when your ignorance of how military leaders hold certain values near and dear to their hearts is just stunning. Then again how could you ever understand that in the protected little world you grew up in. Gen. Kelly sacrificed his son for this country... What the f**k have you sacrificed, outside of letting your brother in law live in your basement.

You're out of bounds again with the personal attack, cradle.
Remember, you have no idea what sacrifices others have made.

We are discussing the choices Kelly as CoS and thereafter has made and why. He was not a military leader as such nor is he today. He was not in a military chain of command then nor is he today.

The military "leaders" I have known, including multiple generals and one admiral, are not the sorts who shirk responsibility for their choices. They hold others accountable, and would have themselves be held so as well.

They are not, however, perfect people. They too have made mistakes in their lives. As have we all.

There are indeed aspects of being in the military, in a chain of command, that are different from the civilian world, and generally with good reason, though there are, nevertheless, limitations of such. I asked Salty specifically about where, in his opinion, such line is drawn, if there is a line. If you have an opinion on that, by all means share.

But when a person with a military background leaves the military and enters the civilian world, the obligations of such change, markedly, and all the more so when one enters the political sphere and becomes a public figure with special obligations to our country which are quite different than those in the military.

That's not an opinion. It's reality.

Kelly chose to enter that political sphere as a civilian. And indeed into a position enabling the actions and decisions of the most divisive of political actors we have seen occupy that position in our lifetimes.

That was a choice, as were Kelly's various statements and actions during his tenure. As are the choices he's made thereafter.

And for all of which he is accountable.

It will be interesting to someday learn from Kelly his own version of the choices he made as CoS and thereafter. For now, his silence has been deafening.

“For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.”



When you insult and denigrate a decorated Marine Corp 4 star general i will personally insult you and attack you all day long. The really sad part is... you don't even understand what you said and who you said it about. Maybe every single secret service agent once they leave the service should be free and clear to spill all of the dirt on all of the presidents they served and protected? Gen Kelly did what any man of integrity that served in his position should have done, he didn't chit all over his former boss even when he deserved it. If he had chosen to do so, we both probably would have understood why. That is not what a 4 star highly decorated marine general does. Maybe someday he will write a book. He probably feels a terrible urge to share what he knows. If he writes it, i will buy it and read it. You of course are entitled to your opinion as to what you think Gen Kelly should have done. How many people of his stature will ever be brought in by any POTUS for their advice and consult if their discretion can't be counted on or they can't be trusted to keep their personal opinions to themselves? I would expect any 4 star general advising POTUS elect Biden to do the same thing, even if he thought his boss was running off the rails. Trump was certainly the exception to what is normal. The bottom line is trump was Kelly's boss. He could have quit at any time. IMO his nature as a marine made him want to try and steer trump in the right direction. trump was the titanic that already hit the iceberg. He was beyond help. I take it personal and it ticks me off when you denigrate the man for spending 16 months trying to stop the ship from sinking. Gen Kelly IMO did exactly what he should have done, kept his mouth shut for as long as he could. I do hope he puts his experience working for trump on paper and publishes it. God only knows what he stopped trump from doing?

Sorry, cradle, ANYONE, including former 4 star generals, who take a political appointment is open to scrutiny and critique.

I'm not 'denigrating' him, I'm criticizing his judgment at various stages. He's accountable for his choices.

[holmes435]

The POTUS would never insult and denigrate a 4 star general.

[old salt]

And of course by OS argument it was yet another terrible choice to select Kelly by Trump if it’s so well known that senior level military folks don’t make good political appointees (which is different than being an elected politician, a technocratic role which should fit in quite well with senior level service)

it was the quiet loyalty of " his Generals " (Mattis, Kelly, Dunford & McMasater) which made them so attractive to Trump initially.
He failed to understand that they quietly had a higher loyalty.

Study up on the success of USMC Generals Jim Jones & "Hoss" Cartwright trying to serve (& please) Obama.
...sabotaged by Davis Rhodes & his band of Obama NSC whiz kid propeller head leakers who fed "the blob".

[cradleandshoot]

Even here, with the election called by every credible and creditable source available at this point, General Kelly has to throw in the softening cushion of "be it Biden or Trump." True to form: General Kelly's association with Trump will be the soil that highlights his obituary someday. Just remarkably sad. ETTD.

He included that to encourage die hard Trump supporters to throw in the towel. He'll be remembered as someone who answered the call to serve (again) & did the best he could for the country, for as long as he could.

Sorry, I missed this response. I'm not sure how you know or if you know that General Kelly included that phrase for that purpose.

I don't doubt Kelly's motivation for taking the DHS job or the COS job -- I can agree that he answered the call of duty for honorable purposes. I just know that both effectively diminished him in the eyes of a lot of Americans, which is the near uniform way of things with anyone who gets near Trump. For as long as he could? Not so sure I agree. I disagree with what I gather you consider an honorable silence after his departure from the White House. General Kelly knew to a moral certainty that the President was a clear and present danger to the country, to the national welfare, and I think had an obligation to indicate to the public that this was the case. We can agree to disagree about that.

Perhaps Gen Kelly judged it would be less damaging to quietly let Trump pass from the scene. He remains true to the military ethos of not being openly critical of those in the chain of command of which you are part.

And when does this purportedly 'honorable' ethos fail to be more important than other obligations?

Where's that line, Salty? Is there no line?

What a pile of BS.

Kelly is not in the military nor was he when he was in the White House. He had and has no obligation to 'not criticize' if he knows that Trump is a danger to our democracy and to our national security and all the more so if he was to be elected a second time.

"pass quietly from the scene"...anyone expecting Trump to do that has to be stupid, and I don't think that's true of Kelly. And of course, even losing the election was surely not to be assumed, regardless of polls.

There are times MD when your ignorance of how military leaders hold certain values near and dear to their hearts is just stunning. Then again how could you ever understand that in the protected little world you grew up in. Gen. Kelly sacrificed his son for this country... What the f**k have you sacrificed, outside of letting your brother in law live in your basement.

You're out of bounds again with the personal attack, cradle.
Remember, you have no idea what sacrifices others have made.

We are discussing the choices Kelly as CoS and thereafter has made and why. He was not a military leader as such nor is he today. He was not in a military chain of command then nor is he today.

The military "leaders" I have known, including multiple generals and one admiral, are not the sorts who shirk responsibility for their choices. They hold others accountable, and would have themselves be held so as well.

They are not, however, perfect people. They too have made mistakes in their lives. As have we all.

There are indeed aspects of being in the military, in a chain of command, that are different from the civilian world, and generally with good reason, though there are, nevertheless, limitations of such. I asked Salty specifically about where, in his opinion, such line is drawn, if there is a line. If you have an opinion on that, by all means share.

But when a person with a military background leaves the military and enters the civilian world, the obligations of such change, markedly, and all the more so when one enters the political sphere and becomes a public figure with special obligations to our country which are quite different than those in the military.

That's not an opinion. It's reality.

Kelly chose to enter that political sphere as a civilian. And indeed into a position enabling the actions and decisions of the most divisive of political actors we have seen occupy that position in our lifetimes.

That was a choice, as were Kelly's various statements and actions during his tenure. As are the choices he's made thereafter.

And for all of which he is accountable.

It will be interesting to someday learn from Kelly his own version of the choices he made as CoS and thereafter. For now, his silence has been deafening.

“For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.”



When you insult and denigrate a decorated Marine Corp 4 star general i will personally insult you and attack you all day long. The really sad part is... you don't even understand what you said and who you said it about. Maybe every single secret service agent once they leave the service should be free and clear to spill all of the dirt on all of the presidents they served and protected? Gen Kelly did what any man of integrity that served in his position should have done, he didn't chit all over his former boss even when he deserved it. If he had chosen to do so, we both probably would have understood why. That is not what a 4 star highly decorated marine general does. Maybe someday he will write a book. He probably feels a terrible urge to share what he knows. If he writes it, i will buy it and read it. You of course are entitled to your opinion as to what you think Gen Kelly should have done. How many people of his stature will ever be brought in by any POTUS for their advice and consult if their discretion can't be counted on or they can't be trusted to keep their personal opinions to themselves? I would expect any 4 star general advising POTUS elect Biden to do the same thing, even if he thought his boss was running off the rails. Trump was certainly the exception to what is normal. The bottom line is trump was Kelly's boss. He could have quit at any time. IMO his nature as a marine made him want to try and steer trump in the right direction. trump was the titanic that already hit the iceberg. He was beyond help. I take it personal and it ticks me off when you denigrate the man for spending 16 months trying to stop the ship from sinking. Gen Kelly IMO did exactly what he should have done, kept his mouth shut for as long as he could. I do hope he puts his experience working for trump on paper and publishes it. God only knows what he stopped trump from doing?

Sorry, cradle, ANYONE, including former 4 star generals, who take a political appointment is open to scrutiny and critique.

I'm not 'denigrating' him, I'm criticizing his judgment at various stages. He's accountable for his choices.

I understand we disagree about Gen Kelly vehemently. In retrospect Kelly should have told the trump people to pound sand. trump and his minions could have then found the appropriate "boot licker" that would tell trump only the things he wanted to hear. I was very happy when Kelly became his CoS. In my mind he was a person with the stones to tell trump what he needed to know and not what trump wanted to hear. That did not work out very well for Gen Kelly. he stepped up to the plate to take a job he never probably wanted in the first place. The bright side is that for the 16 or so odd months that Kelly was his CoS that pathetic little dipweed trump was getting advice from an adult. It frustrates me to no end how some people here are so highly critical of Gen. Kelly because he didn't throw trump under the bus like you all wanted him to do.

The only thing I have pointed out is that a career general of Kelly's stature would never do that. The folks on this forum, most of whom never served in our military are 100% clueless and unable to understand that simple fact. I'm certain every person here would expect the same integrity of a high ranking military officer serving a POTUS that they supported. I'm am so grateful that for a brief period of time this nation had a man of Gen. Kelly's serving his country again. It is too bad he had to work for a rat faced, pathetic little weasel as his boss. As every day passes i have more and more contempt for trump. When he had some of the best people working for him he chose to fire them. Why can't you just leave trump and live the rest of your life in shame like Napoleon Bonaparte banished to Elba. You can wonder around reminiscing about how great you once were.

[Farfromgeneva]

And of course by OS argument it was yet another terrible choice to select Kelly by Trump if it’s so well known that senior level military folks don’t make good political appointees (which is different than being an elected politician, a technocratic role which should fit in quite well with senior level service)

it was the quiet loyalty of " his Generals " (Mattis, Kelly, Dunford & McMasater) which made them so attractive to Trump initially.
He failed to understand that they quietly had a higher loyalty.

Study up on the success of USMC Generals Jim Jones & "Hoss" Cartwright trying to serve (& please) Obama.
...sabotaged by Davis Rhodes & his band of Obama NSC whiz kid propeller head leakers who fed "the blob".

See bolded. You confirmed my point. It was a bad decision.

[ardilla secreta]

Jaime Harrison on Lindsey Graham to CNN: "There is no reason, no reason whatsoever, that he should be calling the Secretary of State in Georgia asking about an election and recount that they're in the midst of."

When the Con-Man president has some nasty trash on your gay lifestyle in a conservative state you tend to do things like this. That’s a good reason.

[Farfromgeneva]

Unless you know something you’re not saying, I think it’s just that effete, Southern genteel weakness and not actually gay. Have seen plenty of it over the years now.

[MDlaxfan76]

Even here, with the election called by every credible and creditable source available at this point, General Kelly has to throw in the softening cushion of "be it Biden or Trump." True to form: General Kelly's association with Trump will be the soil that highlights his obituary someday. Just remarkably sad. ETTD.

He included that to encourage die hard Trump supporters to throw in the towel. He'll be remembered as someone who answered the call to serve (again) & did the best he could for the country, for as long as he could.

Sorry, I missed this response. I'm not sure how you know or if you know that General Kelly included that phrase for that purpose.

I don't doubt Kelly's motivation for taking the DHS job or the COS job -- I can agree that he answered the call of duty for honorable purposes. I just know that both effectively diminished him in the eyes of a lot of Americans, which is the near uniform way of things with anyone who gets near Trump. For as long as he could? Not so sure I agree. I disagree with what I gather you consider an honorable silence after his departure from the White House. General Kelly knew to a moral certainty that the President was a clear and present danger to the country, to the national welfare, and I think had an obligation to indicate to the public that this was the case. We can agree to disagree about that.

Perhaps Gen Kelly judged it would be less damaging to quietly let Trump pass from the scene. He remains true to the military ethos of not being openly critical of those in the chain of command of which you are part.

And when does this purportedly 'honorable' ethos fail to be more important than other obligations?

Where's that line, Salty? Is there no line?

What a pile of BS.

Kelly is not in the military nor was he when he was in the White House. He had and has no obligation to 'not criticize' if he knows that Trump is a danger to our democracy and to our national security and all the more so if he was to be elected a second time.

"pass quietly from the scene"...anyone expecting Trump to do that has to be stupid, and I don't think that's true of Kelly. And of course, even losing the election was surely not to be assumed, regardless of polls.

There are times MD when your ignorance of how military leaders hold certain values near and dear to their hearts is just stunning. Then again how could you ever understand that in the protected little world you grew up in. Gen. Kelly sacrificed his son for this country... What the f**k have you sacrificed, outside of letting your brother in law live in your basement.

You're out of bounds again with the personal attack, cradle.
Remember, you have no idea what sacrifices others have made.

We are discussing the choices Kelly as CoS and thereafter has made and why. He was not a military leader as such nor is he today. He was not in a military chain of command then nor is he today.

The military "leaders" I have known, including multiple generals and one admiral, are not the sorts who shirk responsibility for their choices. They hold others accountable, and would have themselves be held so as well.

They are not, however, perfect people. They too have made mistakes in their lives. As have we all.

There are indeed aspects of being in the military, in a chain of command, that are different from the civilian world, and generally with good reason, though there are, nevertheless, limitations of such. I asked Salty specifically about where, in his opinion, such line is drawn, if there is a line. If you have an opinion on that, by all means share.

But when a person with a military background leaves the military and enters the civilian world, the obligations of such change, markedly, and all the more so when one enters the political sphere and becomes a public figure with special obligations to our country which are quite different than those in the military.

That's not an opinion. It's reality.

Kelly chose to enter that political sphere as a civilian. And indeed into a position enabling the actions and decisions of the most divisive of political actors we have seen occupy that position in our lifetimes.

That was a choice, as were Kelly's various statements and actions during his tenure. As are the choices he's made thereafter.

And for all of which he is accountable.

It will be interesting to someday learn from Kelly his own version of the choices he made as CoS and thereafter. For now, his silence has been deafening.

“For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.”



When you insult and denigrate a decorated Marine Corp 4 star general i will personally insult you and attack you all day long. The really sad part is... you don't even understand what you said and who you said it about. Maybe every single secret service agent once they leave the service should be free and clear to spill all of the dirt on all of the presidents they served and protected? Gen Kelly did what any man of integrity that served in his position should have done, he didn't chit all over his former boss even when he deserved it. If he had chosen to do so, we both probably would have understood why. That is not what a 4 star highly decorated marine general does. Maybe someday he will write a book. He probably feels a terrible urge to share what he knows. If he writes it, i will buy it and read it. You of course are entitled to your opinion as to what you think Gen Kelly should have done. How many people of his stature will ever be brought in by any POTUS for their advice and consult if their discretion can't be counted on or they can't be trusted to keep their personal opinions to themselves? I would expect any 4 star general advising POTUS elect Biden to do the same thing, even if he thought his boss was running off the rails. Trump was certainly the exception to what is normal. The bottom line is trump was Kelly's boss. He could have quit at any time. IMO his nature as a marine made him want to try and steer trump in the right direction. trump was the titanic that already hit the iceberg. He was beyond help. I take it personal and it ticks me off when you denigrate the man for spending 16 months trying to stop the ship from sinking. Gen Kelly IMO did exactly what he should have done, kept his mouth shut for as long as he could. I do hope he puts his experience working for trump on paper and publishes it. God only knows what he stopped trump from doing?

Sorry, cradle, ANYONE, including former 4 star generals, who take a political appointment is open to scrutiny and critique.

I'm not 'denigrating' him, I'm criticizing his judgment at various stages. He's accountable for his choices.

I understand we disagree about Gen Kelly vehemently. In retrospect Kelly should have told the trump people to pound sand. trump and his minions could have then found the appropriate "boot licker" that would tell trump only the things he wanted to hear. I was very happy when Kelly became his CoS. In my mind he was a person with the stones to tell trump what he needed to know and not what trump wanted to hear. That did not work out very well for Gen Kelly. he stepped up to the plate to take a job he never probably wanted in the first place. The bright side is that for the 16 or so odd months that Kelly was his CoS that pathetic little dipweed trump was getting advice from an adult. It frustrates me to no end how some people here are so highly critical of Gen. Kelly because he didn't throw trump under the bus like you all wanted him to do.

The only thing I have pointed out is that a career general of Kelly's stature would never do that. The folks on this forum, most of whom never served in our military are 100% clueless and unable to understand that simple fact. I'm certain every person here would expect the same integrity of a high ranking military officer serving a POTUS that they supported. I'm am so grateful that for a brief period of time this nation had a man of Gen. Kelly's serving his country again. It is too bad he had to work for a rat faced, pathetic little weasel as his boss. As every day passes i have more and more contempt for trump. When he had some of the best people working for him he chose to fire them. Why can't you just leave trump and live the rest of your life in shame like Napoleon Bonaparte banished to Elba. You can wonder around reminiscing about how great you once were.

We disagree about the meaning of "integrity".
I don't see silence in the face of danger to others and to our country as an act of "integrity".

Nor do I see silence, simply because one was a staffer to a dishonest, dishonorable person, as a required act of "integrity".

We do agree that the nation was better off for the handful of people who may have attempted to restrain Trump being in those positions and doing so. Better than full-on sycophants and parasites.

We don't actually know how much effort at restraint there was, but we do know that when someone dares to speak up in conflict with Trump, even if not overtly so, you are slated to be fired. So, this leads to people not airing any disagreements or dancing on the head of a pin to not be seen as disagreeing.

Or, there really isn't conflict. I think that was the case with Kelly in the instance of the policy to separate parents and children at the border. If I recall correctly, he made statements at the time denying there was such a policy, statements which were later proven to be flat untrue.

But we don't actually know enough about what went down when Kelly was CoS to really have the full story, so I'm willing to make some positive assumptions about that period. But after he left, knowing what he knew, and watching the further actions of Trump, an act of "integrity", in service of his country, not the man, would have been to have spoken up. It would have mattered. It would now as well.

[CU88]

Such a team of liars propping up IMPOTUS o d and his followers continue to drink the Kool-Aid

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... d-womens-/


Kayleigh McEnany @kayleighmcenany
The TRUMP movement!

AMAZING turnout for President
@realDonaldTrump
Double exclamation mark
4:18 PM · Nov 14, 2020·

[cradleandshoot]

Even here, with the election called by every credible and creditable source available at this point, General Kelly has to throw in the softening cushion of "be it Biden or Trump." True to form: General Kelly's association with Trump will be the soil that highlights his obituary someday. Just remarkably sad. ETTD.

He included that to encourage die hard Trump supporters to throw in the towel. He'll be remembered as someone who answered the call to serve (again) & did the best he could for the country, for as long as he could.

Sorry, I missed this response. I'm not sure how you know or if you know that General Kelly included that phrase for that purpose.

I don't doubt Kelly's motivation for taking the DHS job or the COS job -- I can agree that he answered the call of duty for honorable purposes. I just know that both effectively diminished him in the eyes of a lot of Americans, which is the near uniform way of things with anyone who gets near Trump. For as long as he could? Not so sure I agree. I disagree with what I gather you consider an honorable silence after his departure from the White House. General Kelly knew to a moral certainty that the President was a clear and present danger to the country, to the national welfare, and I think had an obligation to indicate to the public that this was the case. We can agree to disagree about that.

Perhaps Gen Kelly judged it would be less damaging to quietly let Trump pass from the scene. He remains true to the military ethos of not being openly critical of those in the chain of command of which you are part.

And when does this purportedly 'honorable' ethos fail to be more important than other obligations?

Where's that line, Salty? Is there no line?

What a pile of BS.

Kelly is not in the military nor was he when he was in the White House. He had and has no obligation to 'not criticize' if he knows that Trump is a danger to our democracy and to our national security and all the more so if he was to be elected a second time.

"pass quietly from the scene"...anyone expecting Trump to do that has to be stupid, and I don't think that's true of Kelly. And of course, even losing the election was surely not to be assumed, regardless of polls.

There are times MD when your ignorance of how military leaders hold certain values near and dear to their hearts is just stunning. Then again how could you ever understand that in the protected little world you grew up in. Gen. Kelly sacrificed his son for this country... What the f**k have you sacrificed, outside of letting your brother in law live in your basement.

You're out of bounds again with the personal attack, cradle.
Remember, you have no idea what sacrifices others have made.

We are discussing the choices Kelly as CoS and thereafter has made and why. He was not a military leader as such nor is he today. He was not in a military chain of command then nor is he today.

The military "leaders" I have known, including multiple generals and one admiral, are not the sorts who shirk responsibility for their choices. They hold others accountable, and would have themselves be held so as well.

They are not, however, perfect people. They too have made mistakes in their lives. As have we all.

There are indeed aspects of being in the military, in a chain of command, that are different from the civilian world, and generally with good reason, though there are, nevertheless, limitations of such. I asked Salty specifically about where, in his opinion, such line is drawn, if there is a line. If you have an opinion on that, by all means share.

But when a person with a military background leaves the military and enters the civilian world, the obligations of such change, markedly, and all the more so when one enters the political sphere and becomes a public figure with special obligations to our country which are quite different than those in the military.

That's not an opinion. It's reality.

Kelly chose to enter that political sphere as a civilian. And indeed into a position enabling the actions and decisions of the most divisive of political actors we have seen occupy that position in our lifetimes.

That was a choice, as were Kelly's various statements and actions during his tenure. As are the choices he's made thereafter.

And for all of which he is accountable.

It will be interesting to someday learn from Kelly his own version of the choices he made as CoS and thereafter. For now, his silence has been deafening.

“For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.”



When you insult and denigrate a decorated Marine Corp 4 star general i will personally insult you and attack you all day long. The really sad part is... you don't even understand what you said and who you said it about. Maybe every single secret service agent once they leave the service should be free and clear to spill all of the dirt on all of the presidents they served and protected? Gen Kelly did what any man of integrity that served in his position should have done, he didn't chit all over his former boss even when he deserved it. If he had chosen to do so, we both probably would have understood why. That is not what a 4 star highly decorated marine general does. Maybe someday he will write a book. He probably feels a terrible urge to share what he knows. If he writes it, i will buy it and read it. You of course are entitled to your opinion as to what you think Gen Kelly should have done. How many people of his stature will ever be brought in by any POTUS for their advice and consult if their discretion can't be counted on or they can't be trusted to keep their personal opinions to themselves? I would expect any 4 star general advising POTUS elect Biden to do the same thing, even if he thought his boss was running off the rails. Trump was certainly the exception to what is normal. The bottom line is trump was Kelly's boss. He could have quit at any time. IMO his nature as a marine made him want to try and steer trump in the right direction. trump was the titanic that already hit the iceberg. He was beyond help. I take it personal and it ticks me off when you denigrate the man for spending 16 months trying to stop the ship from sinking. Gen Kelly IMO did exactly what he should have done, kept his mouth shut for as long as he could. I do hope he puts his experience working for trump on paper and publishes it. God only knows what he stopped trump from doing?

Sorry, cradle, ANYONE, including former 4 star generals, who take a political appointment is open to scrutiny and critique.

I'm not 'denigrating' him, I'm criticizing his judgment at various stages. He's accountable for his choices.

I understand we disagree about Gen Kelly vehemently. In retrospect Kelly should have told the trump people to pound sand. trump and his minions could have then found the appropriate "boot licker" that would tell trump only the things he wanted to hear. I was very happy when Kelly became his CoS. In my mind he was a person with the stones to tell trump what he needed to know and not what trump wanted to hear. That did not work out very well for Gen Kelly. he stepped up to the plate to take a job he never probably wanted in the first place. The bright side is that for the 16 or so odd months that Kelly was his CoS that pathetic little dipweed trump was getting advice from an adult. It frustrates me to no end how some people here are so highly critical of Gen. Kelly because he didn't throw trump under the bus like you all wanted him to do.

The only thing I have pointed out is that a career general of Kelly's stature would never do that. The folks on this forum, most of whom never served in our military are 100% clueless and unable to understand that simple fact. I'm certain every person here would expect the same integrity of a high ranking military officer serving a POTUS that they supported. I'm am so grateful that for a brief period of time this nation had a man of Gen. Kelly's serving his country again. It is too bad he had to work for a rat faced, pathetic little weasel as his boss. As every day passes i have more and more contempt for trump. When he had some of the best people working for him he chose to fire them. Why can't you just leave trump and live the rest of your life in shame like Napoleon Bonaparte banished to Elba. You can wonder around reminiscing about how great you once were.

We disagree about the meaning of "integrity".
I don't see silence in the face of danger to others and to our country as an act of "integrity".

Nor do I see silence, simply because one was a staffer to a dishonest, dishonorable person, as a required act of "integrity".

We do agree that the nation was better off for the handful of people who may have attempted to restrain Trump being in those positions and doing so. Better than full-on sycophants and parasites.

We don't actually know how much effort at restraint there was, but we do know that when someone dares to speak up in conflict with Trump, even if not overtly so, you are slated to be fired. So, this leads to people not airing any disagreements or dancing on the head of a pin to not be seen as disagreeing.

Or, there really isn't conflict. I think that was the case with Kelly in the instance of the policy to separate parents and children at the border. If I recall correctly, he made statements at the time denying there was such a policy, statements which were later proven to be flat untrue.

But we don't actually know enough about what went down when Kelly was CoS to really have the full story, so I'm willing to make some positive assumptions about that period. But after he left, knowing what he knew, and watching the further actions of Trump, an act of "integrity", in service of his country, not the man, would have been to have spoken up. It would have mattered. It would now as well.

"We disagree about the meaning of "integrity".
I don't see silence in the face of danger to others and to our country as an act of "integrity"."

I'm not sure how you define a danger to others and our country? Are you trying to differentiate what Kelly's opinion was on any number of policies he disagreed with trump on? If you were to define for me something Kelly knew about trump that was a clear and present danger to the country, please share, I'm all ears. IMO Kelly was dealing with a very stupid person, volatile and unpredictable, absolutely I don't know if he was dangerous. The biggest problem Kelly could never overcome was making trump realize the complexities of the issues at hand. trump's massive ego made him incapable of taking advice from Kelly or hell anybody for that matter. You ask a valid question. If Kelly knew all along that trump was a danger to the country, and he could be specific about it, I'm certain he would have said something. If your going to throw your boss and the POTUS under the bus, you damn well better be 100% sure of what your doing. I honestly hope that soon after trump is put out to pasture than Gen Kelly feels comfortable enough to write the book I believe we both think should be written. My definition of integrity for a man such as Gen Kelly tells me this, as long as trump is still POTUS he wont say anything publicly. I'm certain he has a very interesting story to tell. trump will surely blow a gasket when he tells it.

[MDlaxfan76]

Even here, with the election called by every credible and creditable source available at this point, General Kelly has to throw in the softening cushion of "be it Biden or Trump." True to form: General Kelly's association with Trump will be the soil that highlights his obituary someday. Just remarkably sad. ETTD.

He included that to encourage die hard Trump supporters to throw in the towel. He'll be remembered as someone who answered the call to serve (again) & did the best he could for the country, for as long as he could.

Sorry, I missed this response. I'm not sure how you know or if you know that General Kelly included that phrase for that purpose.

I don't doubt Kelly's motivation for taking the DHS job or the COS job -- I can agree that he answered the call of duty for honorable purposes. I just know that both effectively diminished him in the eyes of a lot of Americans, which is the near uniform way of things with anyone who gets near Trump. For as long as he could? Not so sure I agree. I disagree with what I gather you consider an honorable silence after his departure from the White House. General Kelly knew to a moral certainty that the President was a clear and present danger to the country, to the national welfare, and I think had an obligation to indicate to the public that this was the case. We can agree to disagree about that.

Perhaps Gen Kelly judged it would be less damaging to quietly let Trump pass from the scene. He remains true to the military ethos of not being openly critical of those in the chain of command of which you are part.

And when does this purportedly 'honorable' ethos fail to be more important than other obligations?

Where's that line, Salty? Is there no line?

What a pile of BS.

Kelly is not in the military nor was he when he was in the White House. He had and has no obligation to 'not criticize' if he knows that Trump is a danger to our democracy and to our national security and all the more so if he was to be elected a second time.

"pass quietly from the scene"...anyone expecting Trump to do that has to be stupid, and I don't think that's true of Kelly. And of course, even losing the election was surely not to be assumed, regardless of polls.

There are times MD when your ignorance of how military leaders hold certain values near and dear to their hearts is just stunning. Then again how could you ever understand that in the protected little world you grew up in. Gen. Kelly sacrificed his son for this country... What the f**k have you sacrificed, outside of letting your brother in law live in your basement.

You're out of bounds again with the personal attack, cradle.
Remember, you have no idea what sacrifices others have made.

We are discussing the choices Kelly as CoS and thereafter has made and why. He was not a military leader as such nor is he today. He was not in a military chain of command then nor is he today.

The military "leaders" I have known, including multiple generals and one admiral, are not the sorts who shirk responsibility for their choices. They hold others accountable, and would have themselves be held so as well.

They are not, however, perfect people. They too have made mistakes in their lives. As have we all.

There are indeed aspects of being in the military, in a chain of command, that are different from the civilian world, and generally with good reason, though there are, nevertheless, limitations of such. I asked Salty specifically about where, in his opinion, such line is drawn, if there is a line. If you have an opinion on that, by all means share.

But when a person with a military background leaves the military and enters the civilian world, the obligations of such change, markedly, and all the more so when one enters the political sphere and becomes a public figure with special obligations to our country which are quite different than those in the military.

That's not an opinion. It's reality.

Kelly chose to enter that political sphere as a civilian. And indeed into a position enabling the actions and decisions of the most divisive of political actors we have seen occupy that position in our lifetimes.

That was a choice, as were Kelly's various statements and actions during his tenure. As are the choices he's made thereafter.

And for all of which he is accountable.

It will be interesting to someday learn from Kelly his own version of the choices he made as CoS and thereafter. For now, his silence has been deafening.

“For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.”



When you insult and denigrate a decorated Marine Corp 4 star general i will personally insult you and attack you all day long. The really sad part is... you don't even understand what you said and who you said it about. Maybe every single secret service agent once they leave the service should be free and clear to spill all of the dirt on all of the presidents they served and protected? Gen Kelly did what any man of integrity that served in his position should have done, he didn't chit all over his former boss even when he deserved it. If he had chosen to do so, we both probably would have understood why. That is not what a 4 star highly decorated marine general does. Maybe someday he will write a book. He probably feels a terrible urge to share what he knows. If he writes it, i will buy it and read it. You of course are entitled to your opinion as to what you think Gen Kelly should have done. How many people of his stature will ever be brought in by any POTUS for their advice and consult if their discretion can't be counted on or they can't be trusted to keep their personal opinions to themselves? I would expect any 4 star general advising POTUS elect Biden to do the same thing, even if he thought his boss was running off the rails. Trump was certainly the exception to what is normal. The bottom line is trump was Kelly's boss. He could have quit at any time. IMO his nature as a marine made him want to try and steer trump in the right direction. trump was the titanic that already hit the iceberg. He was beyond help. I take it personal and it ticks me off when you denigrate the man for spending 16 months trying to stop the ship from sinking. Gen Kelly IMO did exactly what he should have done, kept his mouth shut for as long as he could. I do hope he puts his experience working for trump on paper and publishes it. God only knows what he stopped trump from doing?

Sorry, cradle, ANYONE, including former 4 star generals, who take a political appointment is open to scrutiny and critique.

I'm not 'denigrating' him, I'm criticizing his judgment at various stages. He's accountable for his choices.

I understand we disagree about Gen Kelly vehemently. In retrospect Kelly should have told the trump people to pound sand. trump and his minions could have then found the appropriate "boot licker" that would tell trump only the things he wanted to hear. I was very happy when Kelly became his CoS. In my mind he was a person with the stones to tell trump what he needed to know and not what trump wanted to hear. That did not work out very well for Gen Kelly. he stepped up to the plate to take a job he never probably wanted in the first place. The bright side is that for the 16 or so odd months that Kelly was his CoS that pathetic little dipweed trump was getting advice from an adult. It frustrates me to no end how some people here are so highly critical of Gen. Kelly because he didn't throw trump under the bus like you all wanted him to do.

The only thing I have pointed out is that a career general of Kelly's stature would never do that. The folks on this forum, most of whom never served in our military are 100% clueless and unable to understand that simple fact. I'm certain every person here would expect the same integrity of a high ranking military officer serving a POTUS that they supported. I'm am so grateful that for a brief period of time this nation had a man of Gen. Kelly's serving his country again. It is too bad he had to work for a rat faced, pathetic little weasel as his boss. As every day passes i have more and more contempt for trump. When he had some of the best people working for him he chose to fire them. Why can't you just leave trump and live the rest of your life in shame like Napoleon Bonaparte banished to Elba. You can wonder around reminiscing about how great you once were.

We disagree about the meaning of "integrity".
I don't see silence in the face of danger to others and to our country as an act of "integrity".

Nor do I see silence, simply because one was a staffer to a dishonest, dishonorable person, as a required act of "integrity".

We do agree that the nation was better off for the handful of people who may have attempted to restrain Trump being in those positions and doing so. Better than full-on sycophants and parasites.

We don't actually know how much effort at restraint there was, but we do know that when someone dares to speak up in conflict with Trump, even if not overtly so, you are slated to be fired. So, this leads to people not airing any disagreements or dancing on the head of a pin to not be seen as disagreeing.

Or, there really isn't conflict. I think that was the case with Kelly in the instance of the policy to separate parents and children at the border. If I recall correctly, he made statements at the time denying there was such a policy, statements which were later proven to be flat untrue.

But we don't actually know enough about what went down when Kelly was CoS to really have the full story, so I'm willing to make some positive assumptions about that period. But after he left, knowing what he knew, and watching the further actions of Trump, an act of "integrity", in service of his country, not the man, would have been to have spoken up. It would have mattered. It would now as well.

"We disagree about the meaning of "integrity".
I don't see silence in the face of danger to others and to our country as an act of "integrity"."

I'm not sure how you define a danger to others and our country? Are you trying to differentiate what Kelly's opinion was on any number of policies he disagreed with trump on? If you were to define for me something Kelly knew about trump that was a clear and present danger to the country, please share, I'm all ears. IMO Kelly was dealing with a very stupid person, volatile and unpredictable, absolutely I don't know if he was dangerous. The biggest problem Kelly could never overcome was making trump realize the complexities of the issues at hand. trump's massive ego made him incapable of taking advice from Kelly or hell anybody for that matter. You ask a valid question. If Kelly knew all along that trump was a danger to the country, and he could be specific about it, I'm certain he would have said something. If your going to throw your boss and the POTUS under the bus, you damn well better be 100% sure of what your doing. I honestly hope that soon after trump is put out to pasture than Gen Kelly feels comfortable enough to write the book I believe we both think should be written. My definition of integrity for a man such as Gen Kelly tells me this, as long as trump is still POTUS he wont say anything publicly. I'm certain he has a very interesting story to tell. trump will surely blow a gasket when he tells it.

Hang on, it's ok to throw the POTUS under the bus once he's out of office?
But when he's running for another 4 years, unfettered by men and women of good will and competence, unrestrained by any semblance of morality or norms, and he's a "very stupid person, volatile and unpredictable"...THAT"S WHEN it's not ok to speak up???

Yes, you darn well need to be confident that what you are doing will matter in the lives of your fellow Americans, that the stakes are sufficiently high to do so.

Yes, a person who has the power vested as POTUS who is a "very stupid person, volatile and unpredictable" is indeed "dangerous". On its face.

Now, I can see how someone didn't realize how stupid, volatile, unpredictable, and immoral a person Trump actually is (despite all the evidence pre 2016) and how someone may have felt they could make a difference on behalf of the country if they were in a position to restrain and guide that person, but once that no longer was possible (you're fired as are others you trust), and it was evident that the purge of all such persons had begun...you gotta speak up. With integrity.

[njbill]

More from His Rudiness at the hearing yesterday.

Rudy, the wordsmith:

“In the plaintiffs’ counties, they were denied the opportunity to have an unobstructed observation and ensure opacity,” Giuliani said. “I’m not quite sure I know what opacity means. It probably means you can see, right?”

“It means you can’t,” said U.S. District Judge Matthew Brann.

“Big words, your honor,” Giuliani said.

He should be on the Supreme Court.

[Farfromgeneva]

Maybe the judge should’ve described it as being able to see the person on the other side of a glory hole wall? It’s opaque-see.

[cradleandshoot]

Even here, with the election called by every credible and creditable source available at this point, General Kelly has to throw in the softening cushion of "be it Biden or Trump." True to form: General Kelly's association with Trump will be the soil that highlights his obituary someday. Just remarkably sad. ETTD.

He included that to encourage die hard Trump supporters to throw in the towel. He'll be remembered as someone who answered the call to serve (again) & did the best he could for the country, for as long as he could.

Sorry, I missed this response. I'm not sure how you know or if you know that General Kelly included that phrase for that purpose.

I don't doubt Kelly's motivation for taking the DHS job or the COS job -- I can agree that he answered the call of duty for honorable purposes. I just know that both effectively diminished him in the eyes of a lot of Americans, which is the near uniform way of things with anyone who gets near Trump. For as long as he could? Not so sure I agree. I disagree with what I gather you consider an honorable silence after his departure from the White House. General Kelly knew to a moral certainty that the President was a clear and present danger to the country, to the national welfare, and I think had an obligation to indicate to the public that this was the case. We can agree to disagree about that.

Perhaps Gen Kelly judged it would be less damaging to quietly let Trump pass from the scene. He remains true to the military ethos of not being openly critical of those in the chain of command of which you are part.

And when does this purportedly 'honorable' ethos fail to be more important than other obligations?

Where's that line, Salty? Is there no line?

What a pile of BS.

Kelly is not in the military nor was he when he was in the White House. He had and has no obligation to 'not criticize' if he knows that Trump is a danger to our democracy and to our national security and all the more so if he was to be elected a second time.

"pass quietly from the scene"...anyone expecting Trump to do that has to be stupid, and I don't think that's true of Kelly. And of course, even losing the election was surely not to be assumed, regardless of polls.

There are times MD when your ignorance of how military leaders hold certain values near and dear to their hearts is just stunning. Then again how could you ever understand that in the protected little world you grew up in. Gen. Kelly sacrificed his son for this country... What the f**k have you sacrificed, outside of letting your brother in law live in your basement.

You're out of bounds again with the personal attack, cradle.
Remember, you have no idea what sacrifices others have made.

We are discussing the choices Kelly as CoS and thereafter has made and why. He was not a military leader as such nor is he today. He was not in a military chain of command then nor is he today.

The military "leaders" I have known, including multiple generals and one admiral, are not the sorts who shirk responsibility for their choices. They hold others accountable, and would have themselves be held so as well.

They are not, however, perfect people. They too have made mistakes in their lives. As have we all.

There are indeed aspects of being in the military, in a chain of command, that are different from the civilian world, and generally with good reason, though there are, nevertheless, limitations of such. I asked Salty specifically about where, in his opinion, such line is drawn, if there is a line. If you have an opinion on that, by all means share.

But when a person with a military background leaves the military and enters the civilian world, the obligations of such change, markedly, and all the more so when one enters the political sphere and becomes a public figure with special obligations to our country which are quite different than those in the military.

That's not an opinion. It's reality.

Kelly chose to enter that political sphere as a civilian. And indeed into a position enabling the actions and decisions of the most divisive of political actors we have seen occupy that position in our lifetimes.

That was a choice, as were Kelly's various statements and actions during his tenure. As are the choices he's made thereafter.

And for all of which he is accountable.

It will be interesting to someday learn from Kelly his own version of the choices he made as CoS and thereafter. For now, his silence has been deafening.

“For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.”



When you insult and denigrate a decorated Marine Corp 4 star general i will personally insult you and attack you all day long. The really sad part is... you don't even understand what you said and who you said it about. Maybe every single secret service agent once they leave the service should be free and clear to spill all of the dirt on all of the presidents they served and protected? Gen Kelly did what any man of integrity that served in his position should have done, he didn't chit all over his former boss even when he deserved it. If he had chosen to do so, we both probably would have understood why. That is not what a 4 star highly decorated marine general does. Maybe someday he will write a book. He probably feels a terrible urge to share what he knows. If he writes it, i will buy it and read it. You of course are entitled to your opinion as to what you think Gen Kelly should have done. How many people of his stature will ever be brought in by any POTUS for their advice and consult if their discretion can't be counted on or they can't be trusted to keep their personal opinions to themselves? I would expect any 4 star general advising POTUS elect Biden to do the same thing, even if he thought his boss was running off the rails. Trump was certainly the exception to what is normal. The bottom line is trump was Kelly's boss. He could have quit at any time. IMO his nature as a marine made him want to try and steer trump in the right direction. trump was the titanic that already hit the iceberg. He was beyond help. I take it personal and it ticks me off when you denigrate the man for spending 16 months trying to stop the ship from sinking. Gen Kelly IMO did exactly what he should have done, kept his mouth shut for as long as he could. I do hope he puts his experience working for trump on paper and publishes it. God only knows what he stopped trump from doing?

Sorry, cradle, ANYONE, including former 4 star generals, who take a political appointment is open to scrutiny and critique.

I'm not 'denigrating' him, I'm criticizing his judgment at various stages. He's accountable for his choices.

I understand we disagree about Gen Kelly vehemently. In retrospect Kelly should have told the trump people to pound sand. trump and his minions could have then found the appropriate "boot licker" that would tell trump only the things he wanted to hear. I was very happy when Kelly became his CoS. In my mind he was a person with the stones to tell trump what he needed to know and not what trump wanted to hear. That did not work out very well for Gen Kelly. he stepped up to the plate to take a job he never probably wanted in the first place. The bright side is that for the 16 or so odd months that Kelly was his CoS that pathetic little dipweed trump was getting advice from an adult. It frustrates me to no end how some people here are so highly critical of Gen. Kelly because he didn't throw trump under the bus like you all wanted him to do.

The only thing I have pointed out is that a career general of Kelly's stature would never do that. The folks on this forum, most of whom never served in our military are 100% clueless and unable to understand that simple fact. I'm certain every person here would expect the same integrity of a high ranking military officer serving a POTUS that they supported. I'm am so grateful that for a brief period of time this nation had a man of Gen. Kelly's serving his country again. It is too bad he had to work for a rat faced, pathetic little weasel as his boss. As every day passes i have more and more contempt for trump. When he had some of the best people working for him he chose to fire them. Why can't you just leave trump and live the rest of your life in shame like Napoleon Bonaparte banished to Elba. You can wonder around reminiscing about how great you once were.

We disagree about the meaning of "integrity".
I don't see silence in the face of danger to others and to our country as an act of "integrity".

Nor do I see silence, simply because one was a staffer to a dishonest, dishonorable person, as a required act of "integrity".

We do agree that the nation was better off for the handful of people who may have attempted to restrain Trump being in those positions and doing so. Better than full-on sycophants and parasites.

We don't actually know how much effort at restraint there was, but we do know that when someone dares to speak up in conflict with Trump, even if not overtly so, you are slated to be fired. So, this leads to people not airing any disagreements or dancing on the head of a pin to not be seen as disagreeing.

Or, there really isn't conflict. I think that was the case with Kelly in the instance of the policy to separate parents and children at the border. If I recall correctly, he made statements at the time denying there was such a policy, statements which were later proven to be flat untrue.

But we don't actually know enough about what went down when Kelly was CoS to really have the full story, so I'm willing to make some positive assumptions about that period. But after he left, knowing what he knew, and watching the further actions of Trump, an act of "integrity", in service of his country, not the man, would have been to have spoken up. It would have mattered. It would now as well.

"We disagree about the meaning of "integrity".
I don't see silence in the face of danger to others and to our country as an act of "integrity"."

I'm not sure how you define a danger to others and our country? Are you trying to differentiate what Kelly's opinion was on any number of policies he disagreed with trump on? If you were to define for me something Kelly knew about trump that was a clear and present danger to the country, please share, I'm all ears. IMO Kelly was dealing with a very stupid person, volatile and unpredictable, absolutely I don't know if he was dangerous. The biggest problem Kelly could never overcome was making trump realize the complexities of the issues at hand. trump's massive ego made him incapable of taking advice from Kelly or hell anybody for that matter. You ask a valid question. If Kelly knew all along that trump was a danger to the country, and he could be specific about it, I'm certain he would have said something. If your going to throw your boss and the POTUS under the bus, you damn well better be 100% sure of what your doing. I honestly hope that soon after trump is put out to pasture than Gen Kelly feels comfortable enough to write the book I believe we both think should be written. My definition of integrity for a man such as Gen Kelly tells me this, as long as trump is still POTUS he wont say anything publicly. I'm certain he has a very interesting story to tell. trump will surely blow a gasket when he tells it.

Hang on, it's ok to throw the POTUS under the bus once he's out of office?
But when he's running for another 4 years, unfettered by men and women of good will and competence, unrestrained by any semblance of morality or norms, and he's a "very stupid person, volatile and unpredictable"...THAT"S WHEN it's not ok to speak up???

Yes, you darn well need to be confident that what you are doing will matter in the lives of your fellow Americans, that the stakes are sufficiently high to do so.

Yes, a person who has the power vested as POTUS who is a "very stupid person, volatile and unpredictable" is indeed "dangerous". On its face.

Now, I can see how someone didn't realize how stupid, volatile, unpredictable, and immoral a person Trump actually is (despite all the evidence pre 2016) and how someone may have felt they could make a difference on behalf of the country if they were in a position to restrain and guide that person, but once that no longer was possible (you're fired as are others you trust), and it was evident that the purge of all such persons had begun...you gotta speak up. With integrity.

Hang on, it's ok to throw the POTUS under the bus once he's out of office?

I would not say it is okay, but at least your former boss is out of office. This goes beyond the fact that your boss was a slimy character. You can have all the gut instincts in the world, which i am sure Gen Kelly had. Then you have to have as Lanny Davis would say... the pooooooof. Is it enough to throw the POTUS under the bus because he is an industrial strength rectal orifice? It gets more complicated when the person your throwing under the bus is the POTUS. Who the hell was Kelly going to effing complain to MD? The New York Times, Chris Cuomo any other entity in mainstream media. Was he suppose to violate knowledge he had due to his super top secret high level security clearance. Your saying this stuff without thinking the conclusion through to its end game. To do what you want him to do would violate his security clearance. How much of what he and trump talked about was confidential information? He could could not legally blurb it out to just anyone. He was the freaking POTUS Chief of Staff for crying out loud, he was one of the most powerful people in the USA for a time. Whatever interactions he had with trump, even knowing and understanding what a moron trump was, have to be confidential to the highest possible level. It's easy for you to say... throw his rear end under the bus. Exactly what was he suppose to say without becoming a criminal himself who gave away top secret conversations with his boss? i understand you hate trump, I freaking despise trump. That does not give Kelly the freedom to do what you want. Exactly who has a high enough security clearance for Kelly to go to even if he wanted to? We will just have to wait for the book, even then every word and thought Gen Kelly has will have to be parsed and censored to make sure no classified information is put out to the public.

[seacoaster]

Losing Duce whining about Michigan, but forgetting to count:

https://twitter.com/RepDonBeyer/status/ ... 9373767682

[MDlaxfan76]

Cradle
I’m not asking for Kelly to violate classified information, not now, not ever. Makes no difference whether trump is in office or after.

But tell the American people what you think about him, based upon your experience. Before they vote.

Not to sell books.