The Nation's Financial Condition

[a fan]

Holy chit a Fan, i have spent many ,many ,many hours dreaming of the day that Upstate NY becomes its own state. I would be more than willing to give you NYC in exchange as a consolation prize. Us upstate folks will even pay the moving expense to ship it out to Colorado. How much room you have in your back yard? There is a drawback... King Andy is a part of the deal, he needs to be your problem now.

We have uber-moderate Governors out here......so I'm gonna have to go ahead and pass on your offer of a Andy trade. Sorry, my friend!

[cradleandshoot]

Implement these tax changes, reduce Federal Taxes and not do something about them at the state level (which many of these states can't) and inside two years you would have 25 red states that would be singing the Internationale. They would be red-er than the old Kremlin. Hell, Petey would be singing it!



These people need socialist policies to survive.

More than willing to give you NYC. How much room do you have in your back yard? i know you took down all those trees.

[cradleandshoot]

Holy chit a Fan, i have spent many ,many ,many hours dreaming of the day that Upstate NY becomes its own state. I would be more than willing to give you NYC in exchange as a consolation prize. Us upstate folks will even pay the moving expense to ship it out to Colorado. How much room you have in your back yard? There is a drawback... King Andy is a part of the deal, he needs to be your problem now.

We have uber-moderate Governors out here......so I'm gonna have to go ahead and pass on your offer of a Andy trade. Sorry, my friend!

Damn it I tried...

[jhu72]

Implement these tax changes, reduce Federal Taxes and not do something about them at the state level (which many of these states can't) and inside two years you would have 25 red states that would be singing the Internationale. They would be red-er than the old Kremlin. Hell, Petey would be singing it!



These people need socialist policies to survive.

More than willing to give you NYC. How much room do you have in your back yard? i know you took down all those trees.

... need to clear some more trees

[Typical Lax Dad]

I have no real understanding of economics and what not but it would seem that there is GDP and then a portion of GDP that individuals can not do with out? Food seems like such a portion does it not?

This analysis seems to indicate that we are heading straight toward PanAm. District South Dakota produces beef? District Iowa produces corn?

Any help in clarifying this would be greatly appreciated.

Sure. Do you HAVE to get your food from America? Well----there you go.

Did you know, for example, that more than half of the fruit we consume in America is imported? More than half.

Remember----this is the free market that the Republicans have been touting. They don't want to protect America's food supply. They want free, open borders that allow what they think is a free market to operate. And the Dems followed suit starting in the Clinton era, with the passing of NAFTA.

Veggies, by the way, are now at 30% imported. And imports as a percentage of total US consumption for both fruits and vegetables have been climbing for decades.

Just so that nobody is left with the impression that Clinton “created NAFTA”....

Didn't mean to imply that he created it. But he did sign it, and support it.

You are right. It wasn’t meant for you....just for broader consumption. Clinton had to out Republican the Republicans.

[CU88]

The national debt is $27,190,176,826,089, which is up $7.25 trillion under Trump who said he’d eliminate the debt and it would be easy.

[DocBarrister]

While Trump pursued his moronic trade war against China that predominantly harmed Americans, China led the way to the formation of a new 15-member trade block in East and Southeast Asia called the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP). With over 2.2 billion people in the member nations, it is the largest trade block in the world.

The United States is now on the outside looking in.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/15/asia-fo ... hterm=rcep

This is what happens when idiots and morons vote to put an idiot and moron into the Oval Office.

DocBarrister

[foreverlax]

Current Rs and those who support them have zero standing....they held their nose and another 4 years of nothing changing goes by.

[a fan]

While Trump pursued his moronic trade war against China that predominantly harmed Americans, China led the way to the formation of a new 15-member trade block in East and Southeast Asia called the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP). With over 2.2 billion people in the member nations, it is the largest trade block in the world.

The United States is now on the outside looking in.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/15/asia-fo ... hterm=rcep

This is what happens when idiots and morons vote to put an idiot and moron into the Oval Office.

DocBarrister

I tried to tell TrumpFans that this fake trade war wouldn't work. They didn't listen. I was mocked, and told to "be patient". I told them that America has free elections, and China doesn't. And that China would simply wait Trump out.

Gee, that was a REALLY tough call on my part, right?

[Farfromgeneva]

Strangely enough Newsweek does a similar article.

I read the Brookings paper. It was interesting. What nothing said was what is that 30% of the economy that was not blue? Serious question: Is it a majority of farming enterprises that the metropolitan areas would struggle with out?

I have no real understanding of economics and what not but it would seem that there is GDP and then a portion of GDP that individuals can not do with out? Food seems like such a portion does it not?

This analysis seems to indicate that we are heading straight toward PanAm. District South Dakota produces beef? District Iowa produces corn?

Any help in clarifying this would be greatly appreciated.

Should’ve taken classes w Prof McGuire, Drennan, Frishman and Gilbert (and Waller) while one Geneva!

[Farfromgeneva]

It is the tax code. Federal taxes are reduced to only cover (grossly) the national defense. We will look more like Switzerland. State taxes go up to cover the other expenditures now covered by the feds. The biggest bite going to the tax man goes to the state government. We stop sharing anything at the Federal level outside (grossly) national defense. States are responsible for everything else. You want education in your state, you pay for it. You want research universities in your state, you pay for it. You want agricultural subsidies for corn, you pay for it. You want a wilderness area to draw out of state visitors, you pay for it. You want a river dredged, you pay for it. You want agricultural insurance, you pay for it. NOTHING IS SHARED! NOTHING IS SUBIDISED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. A hurricane blows through your state, no federal assistance. The state pays for it. It is pure capitalism 24/7. No more subsidizing internet access. No more subsidizing infrastructure. Nothing is shared at the federal level but the military. You want it, you pay for it. You can't afford it, you don't get it.

The red states will love this. They don't want to pay taxes - they don't have to! Inside of 20 years they will all look like an unkempt trailer park.

They want to produce food, great. They don't want to produce food, great. There are people all over the world willing to supply what the red states supply,

Lot of LDCs (third world) countries rely on food and commodities to drive their economies to where they are.

While you are correct 72, I think more reasonable and moderate republicans have valued points on some of those transfers being superfluous and wasteful. Maybe as much as 30-35% (in terms of types of transfers not by notional dollar amount).

[Farfromgeneva]

I have no real understanding of economics and what not but it would seem that there is GDP and then a portion of GDP that individuals can not do with out? Food seems like such a portion does it not?

This analysis seems to indicate that we are heading straight toward PanAm. District South Dakota produces beef? District Iowa produces corn?

Any help in clarifying this would be greatly appreciated.

Sure. Do you HAVE to get your food from America? Well----there you go.

Did you know, for example, that more than half of the fruit we consume in America is imported? More than half.

Remember----this is the free market that the Republicans have been touting. They don't want to protect America's food supply. They want free, open borders that allow what they think is a free market to operate. And the Dems followed suit starting in the Clinton era, with the passing of NAFTA.

Veggies, by the way, are now at 30% imported. And imports as a percentage of total US consumption for both fruits and vegetables have been climbing for decades.

Just so that nobody is left with the impression that Clinton “created NAFTA”....

https://www.thestreet.com/politics/naft ... t-14651970

You are right though.....In those days, the Dems had to out Republican the Republicans...see crime bill.

Well from Nixon to Obama the Dems threw out:

McGovern
Carter
Carter
Mondale
Dukakis
Clinton
Clinton
Gore
Kerry

Got 3 W’s, so at least in baseball that’s an all star level .333, but not an impressive near 40yr run so it’s easy to see why Dems lined up behind Clinton to win something, anything.

[a fan]

It is the tax code. Federal taxes are reduced to only cover (grossly) the national defense. We will look more like Switzerland. State taxes go up to cover the other expenditures now covered by the feds. The biggest bite going to the tax man goes to the state government. We stop sharing anything at the Federal level outside (grossly) national defense. States are responsible for everything else. You want education in your state, you pay for it. You want research universities in your state, you pay for it. You want agricultural subsidies for corn, you pay for it. You want a wilderness area to draw out of state visitors, you pay for it. You want a river dredged, you pay for it. You want agricultural insurance, you pay for it. NOTHING IS SHARED! NOTHING IS SUBIDISED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. A hurricane blows through your state, no federal assistance. The state pays for it. It is pure capitalism 24/7. No more subsidizing internet access. No more subsidizing infrastructure. Nothing is shared at the federal level but the military. You want it, you pay for it. You can't afford it, you don't get it.

The red states will love this. They don't want to pay taxes - they don't have to! Inside of 20 years they will all look like an unkempt trailer park.

They want to produce food, great. They don't want to produce food, great. There are people all over the world willing to supply what the red states supply,

Lot of LDCs (third world) countries rely on food and commodities to drive their economies to where they are.

Yes. You think Americans want the same wages 3rd world countries get?

This is the part that libertarians and small government doorknobs don't want to hear. Yep, you can have less government. Yep, you have have free trade between countries. Yep, you can get rid of unions.

What are the consequences of these choices? Grover Norquist, and a bunch of economists that get their big checks from the Federal government aren't bright enough to understand that this means that US wages will move towards the global average.

So how many times do you hear flyover Americans claiming "I just want a good paying job for an honest day's work"? They don't want to hear----and will deny it 'til their dying days------that they cannot have a good paying job for an honest days work without massive Federal government interference.

Because the global market values that low-skill job of theirs at about $1480 per month. If that's what you want? Great.

If not? Say hello to a big Federal government.

While you are correct 72, I think more reasonable and moderate republicans have valued points on some of those transfers being superfluous and wasteful.

Which ones? So long as the money stays in the country? That money circulates. The best dollars are obviously spent in infrastructure, R&D, and human capital (education and training)....where you can point to an ROI.

The most wasteful thing we can do as a country? Blow Federal dollars on companies that send their profits outside of the country.

Read: multinational corporations with shareholders who don't live in the U. Or rich people with tax havens outside of the US.

[Farfromgeneva]

Haven’t we done this dance before? You argue as if any pain to anyone can never happen and I believe the pain is coming one day to everyone no matter what. When a business or real estate deal goes sideways it goes into receivership because you don’t want to drag the process out as the loss severity is greater by doing so. We have to take our medicine and we have needed to since at least the financial crisis. We aren’t going to default on our debts so things have to change. You keep arguing as if nothing can ever change because it will hurt people but that’s just a specious argument proven out over and over again.

I think in a global world the guys at the top have to take a haircut and the ones at the bottom will come up. That doesn’t mean we drop to the lowest level of all, that doesn’t make any sense, it’s a blend where we drift down (on an inflation adjusted basis anyways) and they drift up.

Raising taxes have to happen and they need to be targeted but just raising taxes won’t do anything, it has to come with broad restructuring of expenditures on many to ole levels.

What you are arguing for is an enclosed, arguably xenophobic position in the world. That’s just fraught with more problems than you like to point out every time anyone suggests any expense cut should ever happen as if it’s impossible.

[a fan]

We have to take our medicine and we have needed to since at least the financial crisis.

Yes. And by "take our medicine", what you mean is that corporations and the working class need to take their medicine, and pay higher taxes (assuming our current system). Move our effective tax rates to where they were under Reagan.....especially for corporations at the State and Federal level? We'll have more money than we know what to do with.

You keep arguing as if nothing can ever change because it will hurt people but that’s just a specious argument proven out over and over again.

No. I'm arguing WHY the Republicans don't cut spending, and don't raise taxes to balance the budget. I have zero problem with change. What I have a problem with are millions of Republicans hold the rest of us hostage because they want to pretend to be libertarians. Every other 1st world nation has worked to address their health care, education, and immigration issues. We're the only one that is holding out...because we have delusional citizens who don't understand how economies work.

Raising taxes have to happen and they need to be targeted but just raising taxes won’t do anything, it has to come with broad restructuring of expenditures on many to ole levels.

Which expenditures? You have never told me...

What you are arguing for is an enclosed, arguably xenophobic position in the world.

No. I'm arguing that we move to where every other 1st world nation is if we want to protect the working class. Unions. Free education. Better infrastructure. Actual access to health care.

That’s just fraught with more problems than you like to point out every time anyone suggests any expense cut should ever happen as if it’s impossible.

What I'm telling you is what will happen if we cut the size of the Federal Government by a meaningful amount. I have no problem pulling the trigger. All I ask is that flyover America doesn't whine to mommy because the Federal subsidies for their way of life is removed. All they'll do is move to cities, and become liberals.

You and I both know that the borrowing is what has made flyover economy go for the last 20 years. Balance the US Budget for five years via cutting spending, and watch what happens.....

[Farfromgeneva]

I have listed expenditures before and don’t feel like line itemizing it here again.

I still think it’s important to define what your stating is republican politicians, not trumpsuckers (not republicans at all) and not all republicans. I still know many who understand the right path.

I also, as someone who loves traveling and been lucky enough to spend a lot of time in various countries throughout the world, dispute this idea that somehow European countries are doing better than the US. By some measurements, I’ve read a bit on the happiness index and other related forms of measuring outcomes not tied to quantitative measurements or less rigorous in doing so and some explicitly avoiding wealth/gdp/income in analysis, I’m sure we aren’t #1 though likely still top 10 even by those that would treat us worst. I’m sure there are different methodologies that could show us underperforming but they are yet (if ever) to become a standard benchmark of the US or globally. And some of those methodologies appear to have been almost engineered to reject our standard here in the US (which is still the global measurement as well, not whatever measurement you are putting forth). Otherwise, I still reject this “we should be doing what Europe is doing dogma” you espouse daily and have yet to see the evidence of why these approaches are better. That would include both citizen outcomes and public economic results. It’s just this abstract argument that we “have to do what europe is doing” without any substance behind it.

[old salt]

It is the tax code. Federal taxes are reduced to only cover (grossly) the national defense. We will look more like Switzerland. State taxes go up to cover the other expenditures now covered by the feds. The biggest bite going to the tax man goes to the state government. We stop sharing anything at the Federal level outside (grossly) national defense. States are responsible for everything else. You want education in your state, you pay for it. You want research universities in your state, you pay for it. You want agricultural subsidies for corn, you pay for it. You want a wilderness area to draw out of state visitors, you pay for it. You want a river dredged, you pay for it. You want agricultural insurance, you pay for it. NOTHING IS SHARED! NOTHING IS SUBIDISED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. A hurricane blows through your state, no federal assistance. The state pays for it. It is pure capitalism 24/7. No more subsidizing internet access. No more subsidizing infrastructure. Nothing is shared at the federal level but the military. You want it, you pay for it. You can't afford it, you don't get it.

The red states will love this. They don't want to pay taxes - they don't have to! Inside of 20 years they will all look like an unkempt trailer park.

They want to produce food, great. They don't want to produce food, great. There are people all over the world willing to supply what the red states supply,

The red states will continue to supply the human cannon fodder to fight the wars which ensure continued blue state global dominance.

[Typical Lax Dad]

It is the tax code. Federal taxes are reduced to only cover (grossly) the national defense. We will look more like Switzerland. State taxes go up to cover the other expenditures now covered by the feds. The biggest bite going to the tax man goes to the state government. We stop sharing anything at the Federal level outside (grossly) national defense. States are responsible for everything else. You want education in your state, you pay for it. You want research universities in your state, you pay for it. You want agricultural subsidies for corn, you pay for it. You want a wilderness area to draw out of state visitors, you pay for it. You want a river dredged, you pay for it. You want agricultural insurance, you pay for it. NOTHING IS SHARED! NOTHING IS SUBIDISED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. A hurricane blows through your state, no federal assistance. The state pays for it. It is pure capitalism 24/7. No more subsidizing internet access. No more subsidizing infrastructure. Nothing is shared at the federal level but the military. You want it, you pay for it. You can't afford it, you don't get it.

The red states will love this. They don't want to pay taxes - they don't have to! Inside of 20 years they will all look like an unkempt trailer park.

They want to produce food, great. They don't want to produce food, great. There are people all over the world willing to supply what the red states supply,

The red states will continue to supply the human cannon fodder to fight the wars which ensure continued blue state global dominance.

I know plenty of people that have joined from my small town. Definitely a town that supported Biden.

[jhu72]

It is the tax code. Federal taxes are reduced to only cover (grossly) the national defense. We will look more like Switzerland. State taxes go up to cover the other expenditures now covered by the feds. The biggest bite going to the tax man goes to the state government. We stop sharing anything at the Federal level outside (grossly) national defense. States are responsible for everything else. You want education in your state, you pay for it. You want research universities in your state, you pay for it. You want agricultural subsidies for corn, you pay for it. You want a wilderness area to draw out of state visitors, you pay for it. You want a river dredged, you pay for it. You want agricultural insurance, you pay for it. NOTHING IS SHARED! NOTHING IS SUBIDISED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. A hurricane blows through your state, no federal assistance. The state pays for it. It is pure capitalism 24/7. No more subsidizing internet access. No more subsidizing infrastructure. Nothing is shared at the federal level but the military. You want it, you pay for it. You can't afford it, you don't get it.

The red states will love this. They don't want to pay taxes - they don't have to! Inside of 20 years they will all look like an unkempt trailer park.

They want to produce food, great. They don't want to produce food, great. There are people all over the world willing to supply what the red states supply,

The red states will continue to supply the human cannon fodder to fight the wars which ensure continued blue state global dominance.

... they want to serve great, they don't want to serve great. Freedom without socialism, all the way round. I would not count on that global dominance thing.

[old salt]

All I ask is that flyover America doesn't whine to mommy because the Federal subsidies for their way of life is removed. All they'll do is move to cities, and become liberals.

You and I both know that the borrowing is what has made flyover economy go for the last 20 years. Balance the US Budget for five years via cutting spending, and watch what happens.....

20 years ? How about 80 years ? WW-II agri-production, then the Soil Bank, was necessary for the survival of the flyover economy ever since the Depression. It sustained us as the bread basket of the globe.

At a time when population growth & projected food shortages continue to be predicted, do we really want to plow under the most bountiful, cost efficient ag system in history. How many Soviet 5 year plans hit their targets ?