All Things Russia & Ukraine

[njbill]

One side conspired with Russia in 2016. That is what I was referring to.

[old salt]

Nothing to see here, move along, focus on the bright shiny covid object over there.

Over 210,000 American citizens dead; and it is a joke to you...

It was not a joke, you know it, & it's dishonest of you to imply that it was.
It was in response to njbill saying this :
In any event, no one is going to pay any attention to this.
Trump being sick and in the hospital sucks all of the oxygen out of the room.

[old salt]

What must never happen again is that a candidate for president of the United States must not coordinate, conspire, collude, etc. with a foreign power in order to win the presidency.

You're making my point, bill. After 4 years of inferences, accusations, conspiracy theories, spying via national security letters & signal intercepts (profusely leaked), oppo purchased from Russian & Ukrainian sources, there's still nothing that sticks to Trump.

Meanwhile, we're finally getting the details on what the Clinton campaign, & her supporters within the Obama Admin & Fed bureaucracy, were willing to do to prevent, then scuttle a Trump Presidency.

Trump didn't have the people qualified to pull off what his opponents did. They're pros at fomenting regime change. Now we're getting a look at how they do it.

[MDlaxfan76]

Nothing to see here, move along, focus on the bright shiny covid object over there.

Over 210,000 American citizens dead; and it is a joke to you...

And if Biden wins all those folks that will die won't matter to all of you folks anymore. Your only purpose for beating the drums for these people that have died is because their deaths are useful to your cause. Please stop pretending that you really care. After January 21 they won't matter a hill of beans to all of you. If anything those deaths are now on your watch. Time to blame the Republicans then. I do admit I am anxious to see what Joe plan is. He has made big promises that I am certain he has no idea how he will deliver on. I do know if he effs it up the usual suspects here will have his 6 all day long. Any failures on Bidens part will simply be blamed on what trump did or did not do. Nobody in DC ever accepts responsibility. The name of the game is to find a scapegoat when you fail.

Cradle, do you seriously have such low regard for your fellow posters on here?

Please reconsider. You're not a troll.

Sadly I believe getting Biden elected POTUS involves using any means necessary. If you remember awhile back I brought up a little tidbit. The FLP New York State legislature stood up and applauded and laugh and joked and backslapped one another. What was the occasion? They approved the late term abortion bill in NYS. What should have been a dreadfully somber occasion was dealt with with much glee and celebration. When you tell me about the humanity from my fellow posters, it did not show on that occasion. Yes MD, I do not believe many of these posters on this forum are all that troubled by it as they appear to be. This virus was going to hit us and hit us hard. What I see here is a case of Monday morning quarterbacking from people predicting what we should have done out of an abundance of caution.

There is no doubt that trump and a whole lot of other politicians failed the American people. Folks here want to blame 200,000 thousand deaths squarely on trump. It is so easy to play the woulda, coulda, shoulda game. Here is what I will do MD. I am bookmarking our conversation today. I am pretty sure Biden will win. I will get back to you in February or March and see how concerned everybody here on the forum is about the death rate. My guess is the death rate will still be going up, Bidens plan will not have stopped it and our "concerned" forum members here will not be as bothered about it as they are today. I am making an observation MD, no trolling. Time will soon tell if my observation is correct. If I am wrong you know I will be glad to admit it. I hope I am wrong. I just think I understand how the game of politics is played. If the democrats can use the deaths of 200,000 people to their advantage they will do so. All is fair in love and war and politics.

A few things:

First, I think most on here who are critical of Trump do not blame him for 200k deaths, closer to 100k. Mismanaged very, very badly but certainly the virus was going to be hard to tame no matter who had been POTUS. But we were warning early on, and at each and every step, that his decisions and communications were disastrously wrong. Still are.

Second, I think those who are unabashedly Dems on here are not upset about the deaths because he happens to be POTUS. Nor those of us who are not Dems.

Third, I think you're correct that deaths will be rising in February and March. Biden doesn't take over until the end of January and there's at least 5 week delay between a downturn of cases and a downturn in deaths. And the downturn in cases likely won't happen instantaneously if the virus is raging. Let's hope we smarten up way before then, but that's on us, not Biden.

But by next summer, let's hope this thing is under control.

[old salt]

What must never happen again is that a candidate for president of the United States must not coordinate, conspire, collude, etc. with a foreign power in order to win the presidency.

You're making my point, bill. After 4 years of inferences, accusations, conspiracy theories, spying via national security letters & signal intercepts (profusely leaked), oppo purchased from Russian & Ukrainian sources, there's still nothing that sticks to Trump.

Meanwhile, we're finally getting the details on what the Clinton campaign, & her supporters within the Obama Admin & Fed bureaucracy, were willing to do to prevent, then scuttle a Trump Presidency.

Trump didn't have the people qualified to pull off what his opponents did. They're pros at fomenting regime change. Now we're getting a look at how they do it.

Yesterday on CNN, Rick Gates gave his first interview on his book tour. Start listening @ 4:00 for the Russia conspiracy stuff.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 ... s-full.cnn

Keep in mind, if anyone had the opportunity & motivation to drop a dime on Trump (& Stone) it was Gates. He co-operated fully & got a sweetheart deal from Mueller. He did all the bad stuff as Manafort's wingman, yet skated. He stayed on the Trump campaign, transition & admin. Pay close attention to what he says about KK, the polling data & Stone.
obtw -- that was CNN, not RT.

[njbill]

This interview mentions Stone, but it does not get into his ties with Assange. It seems pretty clear that while Gates was an associate of Stone’s in some respects, he was not involved with Stone’s dealings with Assange.

Seems as though Stone dealt directly with Trump. The evidence of Trump’s coordination, collusion, conspiracy – choose your own word – with the Russians is overwhelming. That Trump and his supporters keep trying to deny it is of no moment.

As I have been saying for months, Stone is the key. He has simply refused to give up the information that would criminally link himself and Trump to the WikiLeaks dumps and the Russians. Whether he will do so down the line is still unknown. But there is way too much circumstantial information to suggest that Stone on behalf of Trump was not actively coordinating with Assange. Time in the barrell indeed.

[Brooklyn]

cradleandshoot,

Your only purpose for beating the drums for these people that have died is because their deaths are useful to your cause. Please stop pretending that you really care.

Yeah, like republicans give a flying shtttt about all those tens of thousands of innocents they killed through tRUMP's stupidity and incompetence.

And as for the notion that he isn't a troll, that's a laugh.

[old salt]

This interview mentions Stone, but it does not get into his ties with Assange. It seems pretty clear that while Gates was an associate of Stone’s in some respects, he was not involved with Stone’s dealings with Assange.

Seems as though Stone dealt directly with Trump. The evidence of Trump’s coordination, collusion, conspiracy – choose your own word – with the Russians is overwhelming. That Trump and his supporters keep trying to deny it is of no moment.

As I have been saying for months, Stone is the key. He has simply refused to give up the information that would criminally link himself and Trump to the WikiLeaks dumps and the Russians. Whether he will do so down the line is still unknown. But there is way too much circumstantial information to suggest that Stone on behalf of Trump was not actively coordinating with Assange. Time in the barrell indeed.

What is your theory re the details of the Trump-Stone-Assange-Russian coordination/collusion/conspiracy ?
Is it limited to consultation & collaboration on which emails to release & when ?
Give us your opening statement, ...including what you intend to prove.

[njbill]

No. This is old, old ground. I have gone over it many times as have you. You don’t agree with me. I don’t agree with you. If there is any new information, we can discuss it, but there is no point in repeating ourselves an nauseam.

[CU88]

Nothing to see here, move along, focus on the bright shiny covid object over there.

Over 210,000 American citizens dead; and it is a joke to you...

It was not a joke, you know it, & it's dishonest of you to imply that it was.
It was in response to njbill saying this :
In any event, no one is going to pay any attention to this.
Trump being sick and in the hospital sucks all of the oxygen out of the room.

Sorry, you are correct.

[cradleandshoot]

Nothing to see here, move along, focus on the bright shiny covid object over there.

Over 210,000 American citizens dead; and it is a joke to you...

And if Biden wins all those folks that will die won't matter to all of you folks anymore. Your only purpose for beating the drums for these people that have died is because their deaths are useful to your cause. Please stop pretending that you really care. After January 21 they won't matter a hill of beans to all of you. If anything those deaths are now on your watch. Time to blame the Republicans then. I do admit I am anxious to see what Joe plan is. He has made big promises that I am certain he has no idea how he will deliver on. I do know if he effs it up the usual suspects here will have his 6 all day long. Any failures on Bidens part will simply be blamed on what trump did or did not do. Nobody in DC ever accepts responsibility. The name of the game is to find a scapegoat when you fail.

Cradle, do you seriously have such low regard for your fellow posters on here?

Please reconsider. You're not a troll.

Sadly I believe getting Biden elected POTUS involves using any means necessary. If you remember awhile back I brought up a little tidbit. The FLP New York State legislature stood up and applauded and laugh and joked and backslapped one another. What was the occasion? They approved the late term abortion bill in NYS. What should have been a dreadfully somber occasion was dealt with with much glee and celebration. When you tell me about the humanity from my fellow posters, it did not show on that occasion. Yes MD, I do not believe many of these posters on this forum are all that troubled by it as they appear to be. This virus was going to hit us and hit us hard. What I see here is a case of Monday morning quarterbacking from people predicting what we should have done out of an abundance of caution.

There is no doubt that trump and a whole lot of other politicians failed the American people. Folks here want to blame 200,000 thousand deaths squarely on trump. It is so easy to play the woulda, coulda, shoulda game. Here is what I will do MD. I am bookmarking our conversation today. I am pretty sure Biden will win. I will get back to you in February or March and see how concerned everybody here on the forum is about the death rate. My guess is the death rate will still be going up, Bidens plan will not have stopped it and our "concerned" forum members here will not be as bothered about it as they are today. I am making an observation MD, no trolling. Time will soon tell if my observation is correct. If I am wrong you know I will be glad to admit it. I hope I am wrong. I just think I understand how the game of politics is played. If the democrats can use the deaths of 200,000 people to their advantage they will do so. All is fair in love and war and politics.

A few things:

First, I think most on here who are critical of Trump do not blame him for 200k deaths, closer to 100k. Mismanaged very, very badly but certainly the virus was going to be hard to tame no matter who had been POTUS. But we were warning early on, and at each and every step, that his decisions and communications were disastrously wrong. Still are.

Second, I think those who are unabashedly Dems on here are not upset about the deaths because he happens to be POTUS. Nor those of us who are not Dems.

Third, I think you're correct that deaths will be rising in February and March. Biden doesn't take over until the end of January and there's at least 5 week delay between a downturn of cases and a downturn in deaths. And the downturn in cases likely won't happen instantaneously if the virus is raging. Let's hope we smarten up way before then, but that's on us, not Biden.

But by next summer, let's hope this thing is under control.

I know I have been a part of hijacking this thread for too long. here is my final reply to you MD on this thread. There is a democrat women in my upstate NY district running for congress. Her TV commercials have the theme that trump lied and 200,000 people died because of it. I understand the democrat tactic. If you can put the blame for the death of 200,000 people on one person, that will work to your political advantage. I don't blame the Ds for using that as a tactic. When you want to win elections you tell the people what you want them to hear. On this forum I have read ad nauseum that some posters blame trump exclusively for 200,000 deaths. He screwed up and those death are all his fault. I only hope that if Joe Biden wins that he gets it all perfect 100%. If he does not and this virus still can't be contained, I hope the same folks on this forum will blame Biden if he fails. I hope that is not the case. After all this nation has learned in the past 9 months it still seems like a game of 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

On a personal level, I am tired of living in a nation that is crippled by fear. You take the necessary precautions that you can. When you live every single day scared out of your mind that this thing is going to get you, you are already allowing yourself to be a victim. If I so much as cough my wife wants to take my temperature. In West Seneca here in upstate some guy was killed because he got in to an argument with some one about wearing a mask into a store. Why can't we be cautious and not be irrational about how we go about our everyday lives?

[MDlaxfan76]

Well, we are indeed way off topic, cradle, but in a sense not so much.

The divisiveness of our politics, the loudest, most extreme voices being given the most attention, is music to the ears of Russia...and any other enemy or adversary of western democracy.

We know that the Russians have been very active in amplifying our divisiveness, particularly supporting the candidate for whom divisiveness is his primary appeal.

"Trump lied and 200,000 died' is a catchy phrase and is technically accurate. It is not accurate, however, to say that no one was going to die from this virus without the lies. Just one heck of a lot more deaths due to the lies.

And more are going to die because they are listening to this a-hole even now and will continue to do so for months to come.

At a minimum, we can predict that Biden will follow the scientists' and public health experts counsel and will model same for the country.

But that doesn't mean that it's gonna be easy to crush the virus at this point of 40k new cases a day and growing again. It's gonna be hard.

And there are no magic bullets.

But America does well with 'hard' when we pull together and face challenges head on, together.

And be patient with your wife, she loves you.

[MDlaxfan76]

Nothing to see here, move along, focus on the bright shiny covid object over there.

Over 210,000 American citizens dead; and it is a joke to you...

It was not a joke, you know it, & it's dishonest of you to imply that it was.
It was in response to njbill saying this :
In any event, no one is going to pay any attention to this.
Trump being sick and in the hospital sucks all of the oxygen out of the room.

Sorry, you are correct.

hmmm, I sure took "bright shiny Covid object" as dismissive of its reality, the 210k deaths and climbing. A "joke"? Maybe not, but certainly dismissive ala "media hoax" or "Democrat hoax".

People are paying attention to what matters most in their lives, not the fever swamp imaginations of Ron Johnson and other nitwits listening to Russian propaganda.

And COVID is what matters most. By a long shot.

Not candidate Trump asking Russia for support in 2016 or Ukraine for support in 2019, or anything about Biden's son in 2015 or...

and why does it matter? Because it's real, not a "bright shiny object"...

[old salt]

Nothing to see here, move along, focus on the bright shiny covid object over there.

Over 210,000 American citizens dead; and it is a joke to you...

It was not a joke, you know it, & it's dishonest of you to imply that it was.
It was in response to njbill saying this :
In any event, no one is going to pay any attention to this.
Trump being sick and in the hospital sucks all of the oxygen out of the room.

Sorry, you are correct.

Thanks. Even though we often disagree, I appreciate your honesty.

....& for MDLF76, it was not dismissive. It was in direct reply to bill accurately pointing out that covid has become the primary campaign issue that blocks out everything else. The only people still paying attention to the investigations are those like me who have been following them from the outset.

[6ftstick]

Well bust my buttons

Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe on Tuesday declassified documents that revealed former CIA Director John Brennan briefed former President Obama on Hillary Clinton’s purported “plan” to tie then-candidate Donald Trump to Russia as “a means of distracting the public from her use of a private email server” ahead of the 2016 presidential election.

Ratcliffe declassified Brennan’s handwritten notes – which were taken after he briefed Obama on the intelligence the CIA received – and a CIA memo, which revealed that officials referred the matter to the FBI for potential investigative action.

A source familiar with the documents explained that Brennan’s handwritten notes were taken after briefing Obama on the matter.

[Catbird]

these buttery males are stale.

[njbill]

Just listened to John Brennan’s explanation on CNN.

First of all, this was intelligence the US got from Russian sources. That is, Russia was disseminating this story about Hillary and the US uncovered it. He said even if true, and they didn’t have proof that it was, there would be nothing wrong with Hillary doing that.

And, as events have proved out, Hillary was right. Trump was colluding with the Russians.

He made the point that I have been making repeatedly, which is that the Trump team is selectively leaking documents they think help them while continuing to conceal documents that hurt them.

My take on this is that Trump knows he is going to lose the election so he is trying to get into the public domain before he is out of office as much information as he can that he thinks disproves the notion that the Russians helped him win in 2016. The Durham report, if we ever see one, will be along these lines as well.

[cradleandshoot]

Nothing to see here, move along, focus on the bright shiny covid object over there.

Over 210,000 American citizens dead; and it is a joke to you...

It was not a joke, you know it, & it's dishonest of you to imply that it was.
It was in response to njbill saying this :
In any event, no one is going to pay any attention to this.
Trump being sick and in the hospital sucks all of the oxygen out of the room.

Sorry, you are correct.

Thanks. Even though we often disagree, I appreciate your honesty.

....& for MDLF76, it was not dismissive. It was in direct reply to bill accurately pointing out that covid has become the primary campaign issue that blocks out everything else. The only people still paying attention to the investigations are those like me who have been following them from the outset.

OS you are our resident gumshoe on this matter. You are the pitbull with the bone in your mouth that will never let go. Even when everyone around you is telling you to drop it.

[cradleandshoot]

Just listened to John Brennan’s explanation on CNN.

First of all, this was intelligence the US got from Russian sources. That is, Russia was disseminating this story about Hillary and the US uncovered it. He said even if true, and they didn’t have proof that it was, there would be nothing wrong with Hillary doing that.

And, as events have proved out, Hillary was right. Trump was colluding with the Russians.

He made the point that I have been making repeatedly, which is that the Trump team is selectively leaking documents they think help them while continuing to conceal documents that hurt them.

My take on this is that Trump knows he is going to lose the election so he is trying to get into the public domain before he is out of office as much information as he can that he thinks disproves the notion that the Russians helped him win in 2016. The Durham report, if we ever see one, will be along these lines as well.

"Just listened to John Brennan’s explanation on CNN."

And you believe him without a single reservation? It seems Mr Brennan has spent quite a bit of time over the last 4 years "explaining things" to all of us.

[njbill]

Obviously he is giving his own spin. As would anyone.

But nobody has suggested that there was anything wrong with what the report says Hillary was doing.

Trump was colluding with Russia. Why wouldn’t she put that out? In retrospect, she should have.

Remember, she did not approve the release of the Steele dossier. Bet she wishes she had.