+1Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:41 pmYour last sentence sums it up perfectly. His travails should be explored, perpetuated and discussed but despite those significant shortcomings he remains an integral part of the most significant series of events in human history. His personal behavior was not unlike many of his contemporaries -HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:30 pm I think TJ's tastes far exceeded his income....
But to ggait's post - I never understood the faction of devotee's that insisted in denying Jefferson's connection to Hemmings. It was the worst kept secret in the state of Virginia, and pretty much treated as a fact by most people I knew. But once it was incontrovertible - it was like a fog was lifted and it was that much easier to move on to real discussions about the man, rather than the idol. And his accomplishments are far more impressive for the fact that a flawed man accomplished them.
Without him, Washington and many of the others who all had imperfections of character and means, there would be no United States of America...nobody can erase that
Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
OK wiseguy. Now tell me what their mascot is.tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:18 pmold salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:14 pmWise choice. Who'd attend a school named &.kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:51 amW&L Faculty voted to express support to remove Lee from school name.
Faculty later voted to remove Washington, but the measure failed.
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
The fighting : They are a sh*tty team!njbill wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:48 pmOK wiseguy. Now tell me what their mascot is.tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:18 pmold salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:14 pmWise choice. Who'd attend a school named &.kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:51 amW&L Faculty voted to express support to remove Lee from school name.
Faculty later voted to remove Washington, but the measure failed.
Ampersand U
“I wish you would!”
Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
Maybe they could rename it Washington & King? Because, womanizing (and possible abuse) aside, the historical past only matters when it's a white guy.
https://theconversation.com/im-an-mlk-s ... ght-118015
https://theconversation.com/im-an-mlk-s ... ght-118015
If we need that extra push over the cliff, ya know what we do...eleven, exactly.
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
Nigel wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:53 pm Maybe they could rename it Washington & King? Because, womanizing (and possible abuse) aside, the historical past only matters when it's a white guy.
https://theconversation.com/im-an-mlk-s ... ght-118015
They can start by removing his name from all those bad neighborhood streets.
“I wish you would!”
Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
As is always the case, Peter Brown doesn't know shirt about fork. He's certainly ignorant of history.W&L must change its name because Lee was a Confederate 160 years ago, Washington was a slave owner 240 years ago; but the same state where W&L resides has a governor who wore blackface and a KKK hood only 30 years ago. The most recent racist is safe though....almost like this isn't about racism.
Lee took over the presidency of W&L later on in 1865. He served that institution very well and honorably. He also worked to stitch his country back together. Upon accepting the W&L job, he told the Trustees:
"it is the duty of every citizen, in the present condition of the Country, to do all in his power to aid in the restoration of peace and harmony."
He wasn't a Lost Cause-er. He didn't waste his time flying the Confederate Battle Flag like an ignorant redneck. He spent his time on more important things.
Far be it for me (as a Wahoo) to tell W&L what to do. But there's a fine argument to leave the W&L name as it is.
But not for any of the reasons that a gross brainless loser like Peter Brown thinks.
https://www.virginiahistory.org/collect ... -after-war
Last edited by ggait on Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
The Ligatures of coursenjbill wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:48 pmOK wiseguy. Now tell me what their mascot is.tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:18 pmold salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:14 pmWise choice. Who'd attend a school named &.kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:51 amW&L Faculty voted to express support to remove Lee from school name.
Faculty later voted to remove Washington, but the measure failed.
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
the writer lost me here:Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:44 pm I guess someone else is crazy for equating Trump with 1984. Didn’t know that issue just came up with this “reckoning”...
https://www.thenation.com/article/archi ... 984/tnamp/
what a bunch of drivelAs global warming intensifies, our world is becoming bleaker than one of the darkest dystopias ever imagined.
STILL somewhere back in the day....
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...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
ggait wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:01 pmAs is always the case, Peter Brown doesn't know shirt about fork. He's certainly ignorant of history.W&L must change its name because Lee was a Confederate 160 years ago, Washington was a slave owner 240 years ago; but the same state where W&L resides has a governor who wore blackface and a KKK hood only 30 years ago. The most recent racist is safe though....almost like this isn't about racism.
Lee took over the presidency of W&L later on in 1865. He served that institution very well and honorably. He also worked to stitch his country back together. Upon accepting the W&L job, he told the Trustees:
"it is the duty of every citizen, in the present condition of the Country, to do all in his power to aid in the restoration of peace and harmony."
He wasn't a Lost Cause-er. He didn't waste his time flying the Confederate Battle Flag like an ignorant redneck. He spent his time on more important things.
Far be it for me (as a Wahoo) to tell W&L what to do. But there's a fine argument to leave the W&L name as it is.
But not for any of the reasons that a gross brainless loser like Peter Brown thinks.
https://www.virginiahistory.org/collect ... -after-war
Not saying Virginia began its rapid descent into mindless Democratic mob idiocy when you chose to attend UVA, but the timing is interesting nonetheless.
That state held such promise before the Democratic bureaucrats invaded NoVa. A shame. Now no better than a two-bit failed Yankee commonwealth run by an actual racist (not the theoretical ones the Left likes to cackle about). Virginia should be forced to swallow DC; just desserts.
Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
This is a much better argument from your side.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:13 pmSo are you saying Trump did not use his platform to stifle dissent? That’s what you are signing up for?HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:06 pmYou put me in the uncomfortable position of defending Trump. Before I do, I need to say that I think Trump's spat with Kaep was stupid showmanship, that in the end only benefited the two of them by giving each a podium. I believe in Kaep's right to kneel, just like I believe in people's rights to burn the flag and conduct any kind of peaceful protest.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:55 pm I read it. Are you suggestion Trump wasn’t stiffly dissent or it was a different type of stifling?
With that out of the way, Trump did not silence Kaep, Trump vehemently (and boorishly) disagreed with his actions and spouted off a lot of very insensitive (at best) and more likely bigoted nonsense in a way that (as usual) was beneath the office of POTUS. While I wish that IF Trump had to say anything it should have been nothing more than "I disagree with his position, but will defend his right to say it", -- disagreeing with someone is very different than stifling them.
https://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-own ... 2018-5?amp
But you have to ask yourself - what exactly did the NFL owner fear with regard to Trump? Did he think brownshirts would come for him in the night? - no. Did he think his franchise was going to be taken away from him? - no.
My guess is he feared bad publicity and pissing off his fan base.
But to the extent that tweets from the idiot-in-chief caused Kaep his job, perhaps he was stifled. In counter to that, I would say his spat with Trump is the best thing that happened to Kaep since he was adopted by his parents. He landed that Nike sponsorship and now is a rep for the NFL or something? Making huge money to put his face on things and more importantly not having his brain scrambled or his knees destroyed.
STILL somewhere back in the day....
...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
My only point is they people have been talking about these 1984 parallels with Trump since he has been in office. I wasn’t saying I disagree that thought policing can be dangerous.....HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:21 pmthe writer lost me here:Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:44 pm I guess someone else is crazy for equating Trump with 1984. Didn’t know that issue just came up with this “reckoning”...
https://www.thenation.com/article/archi ... 984/tnamp/what a bunch of drivelAs global warming intensifies, our world is becoming bleaker than one of the darkest dystopias ever imagined.
“I wish you would!”
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
The letter is compelling and IMO quite important.HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:06 pmYou put me in the uncomfortable position of defending Trump. Before I do, I need to say that I think Trump's spat with Kaep was stupid showmanship, that in the end only benefited the two of them by giving each a podium. I believe in Kaep's right to kneel, just like I believe in people's rights to burn the flag and conduct any kind of peaceful protest.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:55 pm I read it. Are you suggestion Trump wasn’t stiffly dissent or it was a different type of stifling?
With that out of the way, Trump did not silence Kaep, Trump vehemently (and boorishly) disagreed with his actions and spouted off a lot of very insensitive (at best) and more likely bigoted nonsense in a way that (as usual) was beneath the office of POTUS. While I wish that IF Trump had to say anything it should have been nothing more than "I disagree with his position, but will defend his right to say it", -- disagreeing with someone is very different than stifling them.
Glad to see it, albeit Petey's purpose in touting it is hugely hypocritical.
I think you're correct about what Trump could/should have done differently, but he didn't.
But it's not merely disagreeing, rather he used his 80 million follower megaphone to rile up those who could actually physically and well as economically "stifle dissent", which I believe was TLD's point.
Trump certainly attempted to 'silence' Kaep, though as you point out, he was only somewhat effective, thanks to others who rose in defense of him ala Nike. But no football contract. No further 'stage' at football games, and by doing so, the NFL effectively intimidated others, stifling dissent.
Of course, that was temporary, so we ask ourselves the question, how might one be further 'silenced'? How about making it punishable to burn the American flag for 10 years (as Trump just advocated)? Short hop from there to jailing those who don't stand to allegiance, right?
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
It’s all a matter of degree. I have no pity for Kaepernick. He made a decision and was willing to suffer the consequences. Kaepernick is going to be fine. I don’t know a lot of people that will give up a multi-million dollar a year payday for something they believe in.HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:27 pmThis is a much better argument from your side.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:13 pmSo are you saying Trump did not use his platform to stifle dissent? That’s what you are signing up for?HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:06 pmYou put me in the uncomfortable position of defending Trump. Before I do, I need to say that I think Trump's spat with Kaep was stupid showmanship, that in the end only benefited the two of them by giving each a podium. I believe in Kaep's right to kneel, just like I believe in people's rights to burn the flag and conduct any kind of peaceful protest.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:55 pm I read it. Are you suggestion Trump wasn’t stiffly dissent or it was a different type of stifling?
With that out of the way, Trump did not silence Kaep, Trump vehemently (and boorishly) disagreed with his actions and spouted off a lot of very insensitive (at best) and more likely bigoted nonsense in a way that (as usual) was beneath the office of POTUS. While I wish that IF Trump had to say anything it should have been nothing more than "I disagree with his position, but will defend his right to say it", -- disagreeing with someone is very different than stifling them.
https://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-own ... 2018-5?amp
But you have to ask yourself - what exactly did the NFL owner fear with regard to Trump? Did he think brownshirts would come for him in the night? - no. Did he think his franchise was going to be taken away from him? - no.
My guess is he feared bad publicity and pissing off his fan base.
But to the extent that tweets from the idiot-in-chief caused Kaep his job, perhaps he was stifled. In counter to that, I would say his spat with Trump is the best thing that happened to Kaep since he was adopted by his parents. He landed that Nike sponsorship and now is a rep for the NFL or something? Making huge money to put his face on things and more importantly not having his brain scrambled or his knees destroyed.
“I wish you would!”
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
Exactly. Hoodat seems to suggest it was a private argument with Kaepernick and Trump.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:30 pmThe letter is compelling and IMO quite important.HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:06 pmYou put me in the uncomfortable position of defending Trump. Before I do, I need to say that I think Trump's spat with Kaep was stupid showmanship, that in the end only benefited the two of them by giving each a podium. I believe in Kaep's right to kneel, just like I believe in people's rights to burn the flag and conduct any kind of peaceful protest.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:55 pm I read it. Are you suggestion Trump wasn’t stiffly dissent or it was a different type of stifling?
With that out of the way, Trump did not silence Kaep, Trump vehemently (and boorishly) disagreed with his actions and spouted off a lot of very insensitive (at best) and more likely bigoted nonsense in a way that (as usual) was beneath the office of POTUS. While I wish that IF Trump had to say anything it should have been nothing more than "I disagree with his position, but will defend his right to say it", -- disagreeing with someone is very different than stifling them.
Glad to see it, albeit Petey's purpose in touting it is hugely hypocritical.
I think you're correct about what Trump could/should have done differently, but he didn't.
But it's not merely disagreeing, rather he used his 80 million follower megaphone to rile up those who could actually physically and well as economically "stifle dissent", which I believe was TLD's point.
Trump certainly attempted to 'silence' Kaep, though as you point out, he was only somewhat effective, thanks to others who rose in defense of him ala Nike. But no football contract. No further 'stage' at football games, and by doing so, the NFL effectively intimidated others, stifling dissent.
Of course, that was temporary, so we ask ourselves the question, how might one be further 'silenced'? How about making it punishable to burn the American flag for 10 years (as Trump just advocated)? Short hop from there to jailing those who don't stand to allegiance, right?
“I wish you would!”
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Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
The problem is revering people in the past by today's standards. It will never work.Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:41 pmYour last sentence sums it up perfectly. His travails should be explored, perpetuated and discussed but despite those significant shortcomings he remains an integral part of the most significant series of events in human history. His personal behavior was not unlike many of his contemporaries -HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:30 pm I think TJ's tastes far exceeded his income....
But to ggait's post - I never understood the faction of devotee's that insisted in denying Jefferson's connection to Hemmings. It was the worst kept secret in the state of Virginia, and pretty much treated as a fact by most people I knew. But once it was incontrovertible - it was like a fog was lifted and it was that much easier to move on to real discussions about the man, rather than the idol. And his accomplishments are far more impressive for the fact that a flawed man accomplished them.
Without him, Washington and many of the others who all had imperfections of character and means, there would be no United States of America...nobody can erase that
But by saying Jefferson was one of the most influential and progressive thinkers OF HIS TIME is in fact accurate AND doesnt set unachievable current-day expectations.
Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
No, not a private argument - a very, very public one. But the whole point of the 1st Amendment is public speech - right?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:33 pmExactly. Hoodat seems to suggest it was a private argument with Kaepernick and Trump.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:30 pmThe letter is compelling and IMO quite important.HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:06 pmYou put me in the uncomfortable position of defending Trump. Before I do, I need to say that I think Trump's spat with Kaep was stupid showmanship, that in the end only benefited the two of them by giving each a podium. I believe in Kaep's right to kneel, just like I believe in people's rights to burn the flag and conduct any kind of peaceful protest.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:55 pm I read it. Are you suggestion Trump wasn’t stiffly dissent or it was a different type of stifling?
With that out of the way, Trump did not silence Kaep, Trump vehemently (and boorishly) disagreed with his actions and spouted off a lot of very insensitive (at best) and more likely bigoted nonsense in a way that (as usual) was beneath the office of POTUS. While I wish that IF Trump had to say anything it should have been nothing more than "I disagree with his position, but will defend his right to say it", -- disagreeing with someone is very different than stifling them.
Glad to see it, albeit Petey's purpose in touting it is hugely hypocritical.
I think you're correct about what Trump could/should have done differently, but he didn't.
But it's not merely disagreeing, rather he used his 80 million follower megaphone to rile up those who could actually physically and well as economically "stifle dissent", which I believe was TLD's point.
Trump certainly attempted to 'silence' Kaep, though as you point out, he was only somewhat effective, thanks to others who rose in defense of him ala Nike. But no football contract. No further 'stage' at football games, and by doing so, the NFL effectively intimidated others, stifling dissent.
Of course, that was temporary, so we ask ourselves the question, how might one be further 'silenced'? How about making it punishable to burn the American flag for 10 years (as Trump just advocated)? Short hop from there to jailing those who don't stand to allegiance, right?
I would argue that Trump did not attempt to silence Kaep, he didn't do anything to stop Kaep from taking a knee. He just pissed and moaned about it. Trump never does anything. He just tweets... and brags about himself....
I don't think the 1st amendment has a limit on someone's influence and their right to speak. So Yes Trump is a douche. And yes he has 80 million followers (or whatever) does that mean he doesn't get to disagree?
Isn't the bully pulpit what POTUS is supposed to use? ~ albeit you would rather he chose more thoughtful positions for which to fight...
STILL somewhere back in the day....
...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
ggait wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:01 pmAs is always the case, Peter Brown doesn't know shirt about fork. He's certainly ignorant of history.W&L must change its name because Lee was a Confederate 160 years ago, Washington was a slave owner 240 years ago; but the same state where W&L resides has a governor who wore blackface and a KKK hood only 30 years ago. The most recent racist is safe though....almost like this isn't about racism.
Lee took over the presidency of W&L later on in 1865. He served that institution very well and honorably. He also worked to stitch his country back together. Upon accepting the W&L job, he told the Trustees:
"it is the duty of every citizen, in the present condition of the Country, to do all in his power to aid in the restoration of peace and harmony."
He wasn't a Lost Cause-er. He didn't waste his time flying the Confederate Battle Flag like an ignorant redneck. He spent his time on more important things.
Far be it for me (as a Wahoo) to tell W&L what to do. But there's a fine argument to leave the W&L name as it is.
But not for any of the reasons that a gross brainless loser like Peter Brown thinks.
https://www.virginiahistory.org/collect ... -after-war
Correct. Lee is not the only, but is certainly a rare and special case. He was a sane leader after his surrender and helped to guide citizens in the south in an honorable fashion. He remained very far above the basest southern passions of the post war era. He was a flawed individual, he did what he did, but very far from how he is sometimes portrayed. A very sad character in the American story. I won't be disposing of my Mort Kunstler Collection.
STAND AGAINST FASCISM
Re: Race in America - Riots Explode in Minneapolis
I know they have, and the problem is we should have been talking about 1984 long before Trump.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:29 pmMy only point is they people have been talking about these 1984 parallels with Trump since he has been in office. I wasn’t saying I disagree that thought policing can be dangerous.....HooDat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:21 pmthe writer lost me here:Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:44 pm I guess someone else is crazy for equating Trump with 1984. Didn’t know that issue just came up with this “reckoning”...
https://www.thenation.com/article/archi ... 984/tnamp/what a bunch of drivelAs global warming intensifies, our world is becoming bleaker than one of the darkest dystopias ever imagined.
Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton, W, Obama - all gaslighters ala "Wag the Dog". All feeding us a load of dung in order to get what they want and expect us to fall in line.
On this point, I actually think Trump is less guilty than his predecessors - his just such a bumbling idiot he is easier to catch.
STILL somewhere back in the day....
...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......