Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[Farfromgeneva]

Nice to see that MSU forced out a professor of Physics, that also referenced the slave trading Harvard study., that shows no bias.

I wish you would stop getting false info from right-wing blogs.

That MSU professor (whom I've met a couple of times) is still a tenured professor of physics at MSU. The job he resigned from is Vice Chancellor of Research, a high-level administrative post that requires quite significant management and political skills. In the past couple of years, he had made a series of totally bone-headed moves, including being interviewed on a podcast of a known supporter of white supremicists without pushing back on that in any way. I think he's a good guy at heart, but he blunders into situations without thinking, and without understanding that with that administrative job he acted as a face and voice of the university, and not just himself. My advice to him would have been to resign from the administrative position, and I was glad when he did. I would not want him in that position at my university. His political skills are far far below what's needed for that job.

Great practitioners often make bad managers. I’ve seen in on Wall st. We know it in sports pretty evidently. Two different functions entirely. What’s funny is when management at a place like McKinsey is bad.... (I’m actually friends with a guy who was CFO of McKinsey NA until 1-2yrs ago, younger guy, sweetheart of a dude, smart as get out but wouldn’t survive a day in a business that’s not massive and plays matrix style org management).

[ABV 8.3%]

Nice to see that MSU forced out a professor of Physics, that also referenced the slave trading Harvard study., that shows no bias.

I wish you would stop getting false info from right-wing blogs.

That MSU professor (whom I've met a couple of times) is still a tenured professor of physics at MSU. The job he resigned from is Vice Chancellor of Research, a high-level administrative post that requires quite significant management and political skills. In the past couple of years, he had made a series of totally bone-headed moves, including being interviewed on a podcast of a known supporter of white supremicists without pushing back on that in any way. I think he's a good guy at heart, but he blunders into situations without thinking, and without understanding that with that administrative job he acted as a face and voice of the university, and not just himself. My advice to him would have been to resign from the administrative position, and I was glad when he did. I would not want him in that position at my university. His political skills are far far below what's needed for that job.

Great practitioners often make bad managers. I’ve seen in on Wall st. We know it in sports pretty evidently. Two different functions entirely. What’s funny is when management at a place like McKinsey is bad.... (I’m actually friends with a guy who was CFO of McKinsey NA until 1-2yrs ago, younger guy, sweetheart of a dude, smart as get out but wouldn’t survive a day in a business that’s not massive and plays matrix style org management).

What skin pigment is your friend who works at "we'll tell you what time your watch sayz" McKinsey? Similar to Goldman saks, Or Event 201?

When it comes to efficiency, these CONsultants are often miracle workers. Worth the coin. However, when The strategy "pillar" is tasked, it gets much less "efficient" when a company hires them. When it comes to military strategy, it is usually down right awful. Who else brought us the F-35? And our massive deficits ? Planned parenthood?

[MDlaxfan76]

No matter what I'm doing, hunting, sporting clays, skeet...

I do best and always come back to my Benelli. Love my SBE2!

Anyone with a competitive bone in their body should love trap shooting. It's such a kick in the pants.

Undoubtedly!
Actually eyeing a Browning BT99 right now, just for trap. A trap-specific gun really helps for that.
Those perfect runs are hard to come by without the right gun. Or at least that's what I tell my wife when she asks me why I need another shotgun...

Kramerica - help us understand what is so special about the Benelli?

I'ts simply built like a tank, and is incredibly durable, accurate and reliable.
It's easy swinging, and light-ER, but has a nice butt-end kick-eeze style system that gives you less felt recoil.
It's a 12GA. But it takes any size 12 GA shell. From 2.75 to 3.5. Even the low power stuff.
It shoots it all and cycles it all. Clean and smooth ejection. Never jams.
It's built to be a waterfowl gun so it can handle the elements, drops, bangs, bruises. The Cryo-coat finish is hard as heck to scratch or damage.
Havent lost mine, but definitely left it in the mud and goop by the blinds and it's fired flawlessly. I haven't lost mine off the boat yet, but others have told me they have dropped theirs out of the boat, submerged, and been able to fire, seamlessly with just a change of ammo.
It also fits me well, so I'm comfy shooting it and know where I'm aiming.
I can do pretty much any sporting games with it consistently with the exception of trap, (at least for me) Best shooting money ever spend, for me.

Well, the no jam aspect would be a relief from my old Browning!
Classic gun, but arghh, sometimes gets touchy, just when the birds are thick...
I don't spend enough time with it anymore, so it may well not be the gun's fault!

[MDlaxfan76]

here's an interesting story- from CU Boulder: https://www.legitgov.org/cu-boulder-adm ... s-accepted

Try reading the entire actual memo, instead of right-wing blogs that misleadingly excerpt bits of it:

https://www.colorado.edu/today/newslett ... y-behavior

sheesh, do you guys want Branch Davidian outcome or CHOP outcome?
Make up your minds...

Of course the deaths and rape and destruction are appalling. But they did it to themselves, undermining the whole notion of taking and controlling ground with no civil order.

So, yeah, I approve of how the Seattle police, courts, and mayor handled this problem, given much worse alternatives. No anarchist heroes, no martyrs.

what happened in the last week+, after the 1st shootings and killing (along with other reports), that made the chop patrol less able to guard their flank in the dawn hours?

did they all of a sudden become vulnerable to sleeping in?

it seems the mayor's over/under was 2. yours may have been higher, but whether it was polling or public sentiment, buying in finally to a plan from the local force got greenlit.

Yup, it certainly would appear that the break down of order, killing, rape etc took the moral steam out of the protest. My guess is that made it easier to make the move, both from a public perception that it was justified and inside there may well have been an acceptance of the inevitability. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those protestors were sickened by the breakdown in the internal order and simply left or stood aside.

We'll never know what would have happened with a police assault earlier in this process. Would it have been simple to execute, no sweat, or would it have been met with rage and more violence, spawning even more outbreaks?

sorry, mdlax. you don't get to play what if on this one. only in your mind if you can't come to terms. there are circumstances where that could apply, but not here.

there were several shootings and a killing before this one. same circumstances. same chop army patrolling.

the mayor obviously didn't have a plan at the outset.
tried to negotiate and plea her way out of it, and all that did was drop another body. or 2.

you projecting "2 is enough" by the chop crowd is just that. 2 (or 3) was only enough for the mayor. we know how it turned out, bc it happened.

I'm just not as sure about all this as you seem to be.

We do know what happened. (or at least we mostly know)
No argument, except insofar as this wasn't passive citizens who fell victim to some criminals.
Nope, it was people doing the stupid stuff that people do in mobs.
The perps should be punished.

However, we don't know what would have happened had the police gone in heavy early.

Do you?
You sure it wouldn't have been a blood bath?
Some of these folks were armed.

And then what?

What we also know from how it played out is there were no martyrs.
And this particular sort of 'protest' lost a ton of 'legitimacy' if it ever had any at all. I don't think anyone on here was ever cheering this sort of action on. But much more important than folks like us, it lost legitimacy with fellow protesters. It backfired.

Or at least that's my current take.

there's a whole lot of things i'd have done differently if i were mayor for a day.

i wouldn't expect a mayor durkan to mirror those actions.

what we are talking about, is the timing of the action that WAS taken. a week late. there is little excuse for that. beyond whatever you feel about alleged rape, assault and destruction, there were multiple shootings and a killing.

time was up. we're not talking about your "heavy early, blood bath" misdirection. they could've taken the exact same action a week earlier, and did not. to me, it's inexcusable. you're good with it. her number was 2 or 3. even after having the option of getting out of there with 1 and then doing the exact same thing they did anyway.

don't agree with the call there at all and don't give her latitude at all for differing approaches after the first. and really can't fathom the mindframe of anyone in hindsight saying... yeah, was probably the way to go.

summer of love indeed.

Fair argument with the benefit of hindsight.
It'd be interesting to hear the Mayor's self reflection at some point.
Politicians rarely self-critique, but I wouldn't be surprised if she acknowledged that she wishes they'd moved at least some days sooner, given what actually went down in those last couple of days.

But we arm chair QB's really don't know what all the dynamics were with the coordination between the police chief, Mayor, council, activist community etc. They may have felt they were getting close to breaking through, only to have the facts on the ground go further sour.

My perspective is that the bottomline is this sort of protest action became far less "legitimate" as a course to take, as it devolved, a lesson for future actions. And no martyrs.

Those are positives.

Glass half full.

[Matnum PI]

It's as ridiculous to point at one Democrat and say, See what Democrats do! as it is to point at one person at a BLM (related) rally, protest, etc. and say, Look at what BLM does! As it is to point at one article and say, See what's happening in the world! Not all people, not all media outlets are created equal. And, even the most reputable of both, are imperfect. Bottomline, there's a lot of black and white thinking (which has a purposeful double meaning) within this thread.

[MDlaxfan76]

Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings

We find no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across shootings, and White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers. Instead, race-specific crime strongly predicts civilian race. This suggests that increasing diversity among officers by itself is unlikely to reduce racial disparity in police shootings.

Nice to see that MSU forced out a professor of Physics, that also referenced the slave trading Harvard study., that shows no bias.

Seems to be an issue close to your heart.....you spend a lot of time on the topic. What are you doing to help?

It is close to my heart, b/c I do care and see close friends struggling to find their way through this. Just sharing facts from a neutral study of two highly respected schools.

I am helping to just be nice to everyone I encounter. Just today, the UPS driver stopped by and I handed him a drink as I always do with all the delivery drivers. Today we had a different UPS driver, another black man, he said they other guy was on vacation...when I handed him the cold beverage he said... "I appreciate you man and the guy I am covering for said there's this one guy that always hooks me up with drinks...even made me a cheeseburger one evening during the Holiday's when he was grilling outside". It's not hard to be nice and it makes a difference, no?

That wasn't hard to answer a question about what I am doing. I've asked you what we can do at least 3x and all I got was "you are christian figure it out". Maybe you need to soften your heart?

Tues evening at the dog park, just before dusk, all the other dogs had departed. A young couple arrived with their 2 daughters & 2 dogs. Dad stayed outside the fence with one dog, a pittie who was an inveterate humper. I assured him it was ok, my guys could handle it -- they just consider it a wrestling move. They cautiously came in & between the two of us, we made it work & restrained his dog when necessary. It was their first visit to this park, having recently moved up from SoMd. He told me the dog had been chained in his neighbors yard for a couple years then abandoned when the previous owner moved away. This family took him in. They're training & socializing him. I told him about an electric acoustic /shock collar which I use to train foster dogs who are humpers. His wife immediately used her smart phone to locate one & order it. He was looking for a vet now back open to neuter the pittie. I told him how to contact our well pet clinic. My dogs & I made some new friends. I didn't think of it until now, they happen to be black (the people, not the dogs).

well, you did think of it before, but great story nevertheless.
Treating people generously as people matters. And their dogs.

Our two dog's (sister's next door) are rescued from brutal conditions, about 6 months in now and they're beginning to get less skittish and more relaxed. Sweethearts, mom and son, but scared of everything. I feed them when sis and her husband travel, so we've made best buddies...Most of our dogs in both families over the past 30 years have been adopted, over the past 50 years others have included black labs who've been hunting dogs as well as family dogs.

But here's a bit different story from yesterday, a quite inadvertent moment that wasn't based on any actual aggressive racism, but just a general cluelessness.

We've been having issues with our Comcast services, another technician came yesterday, young black man, masked. Best technician we've had to date, he was able to eventually track down a noisy signal problem caused by an cabling coupler deep in the wall that we were able to pull out and replace. My computer jock basement dweller felt the need to be quite involved, I kept needing to tell him to give the tech 6ft as he wasn't wearing a mask, instead of hanging over him, which he responded to well most of the time. The tech was clearly very sharp and the discussion about noise detection, source, etc was high level between them...brother in law is in the highest speed, machine level computer applications including signal detection in various defense, intel, military applications.

However, late in the process, my brother-in-law out of the blue asked the young man whether they'd actually met recently at a Popeye's...I looked at him incredulously, and he explained that he'd been talking to a Comcast tech in line when he'd been picking up lunch recently (what he was doing out at a Popeye's given his diabetes is another question). The tech gracefully said no, wasn't him.

We may not mean to see race, but we do. In my brother-in-law's case, he's a bit on the spectrum (IMO) so he also didn't have any filter on whether the question was even appropriate in the circumstance, that it could so easily have been a different Comcast tech at Popeye's...

Tiny thing, but...

[DMac]

You might have made friends with the new folks, salty, but Humper Dog, not so much. That boy's just trying to have a little fun.
Here's the latest from Ball Dog. Handsome fella.


Little break in the pool.
Ball in mouth, of course.

[MDlaxfan76]

You might have made friends with the new folks, salty, but Humper Dog, not so much. That boy's just trying to have a little fun.
Here's the latest from Ball Dog. Handsome fella.


Little break in the pool.
Ball in mouth, of course.

Very handsome fella!

[Typical Lax Dad]

Once people realize that a good portion of our problems are haves and have nots, we may see some change. Digging out of a hole doesn’t happen overnight particularly when road blocks are set up along the way. Falling in that hole didn’t happen overnight.

MAGA

[youthathletics]

Gotem' https://therightscoop.com/feds-arrest-l ... r7DA_0QzxU

[cradleandshoot]

here's an interesting story- from CU Boulder: https://www.legitgov.org/cu-boulder-adm ... s-accepted

Try reading the entire actual memo, instead of right-wing blogs that misleadingly excerpt bits of it:

https://www.colorado.edu/today/newslett ... y-behavior

sheesh, do you guys want Branch Davidian outcome or CHOP outcome?
Make up your minds...

Of course the deaths and rape and destruction are appalling. But they did it to themselves, undermining the whole notion of taking and controlling ground with no civil order.

So, yeah, I approve of how the Seattle police, courts, and mayor handled this problem, given much worse alternatives. No anarchist heroes, no martyrs.

what happened in the last week+, after the 1st shootings and killing (along with other reports), that made the chop patrol less able to guard their flank in the dawn hours?

did they all of a sudden become vulnerable to sleeping in?

it seems the mayor's over/under was 2. yours may have been higher, but whether it was polling or public sentiment, buying in finally to a plan from the local force got greenlit.

Yup, it certainly would appear that the break down of order, killing, rape etc took the moral steam out of the protest. My guess is that made it easier to make the move, both from a public perception that it was justified and inside there may well have been an acceptance of the inevitability. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those protestors were sickened by the breakdown in the internal order and simply left or stood aside.

We'll never know what would have happened with a police assault earlier in this process. Would it have been simple to execute, no sweat, or would it have been met with rage and more violence, spawning even more outbreaks?

sorry, mdlax. you don't get to play what if on this one. only in your mind if you can't come to terms. there are circumstances where that could apply, but not here.

there were several shootings and a killing before this one. same circumstances. same chop army patrolling.

the mayor obviously didn't have a plan at the outset.
tried to negotiate and plea her way out of it, and all that did was drop another body. or 2.

you projecting "2 is enough" by the chop crowd is just that. 2 (or 3) was only enough for the mayor. we know how it turned out, bc it happened.

I'm just not as sure about all this as you seem to be.

We do know what happened. (or at least we mostly know)
No argument, except insofar as this wasn't passive citizens who fell victim to some criminals.
Nope, it was people doing the stupid stuff that people do in mobs.
The perps should be punished.

However, we don't know what would have happened had the police gone in heavy early.

Do you?
You sure it wouldn't have been a blood bath?
Some of these folks were armed.

And then what?

What we also know from how it played out is there were no martyrs.
And this particular sort of 'protest' lost a ton of 'legitimacy' if it ever had any at all. I don't think anyone on here was ever cheering this sort of action on. But much more important than folks like us, it lost legitimacy with fellow protesters. It backfired.

Or at least that's my current take.

"No argument, except insofar as this wasn't passive citizens who fell victim to some criminals."

No these were willing citizens who chose to become criminals. The minute they chose to take over part of Seattle they purposefully denied the rest of their fellow citizens free access to the city they pay their taxes to fund. They did not deserve any patience. They should have been evicted before the first tent stake went into the ground. MD you really seem to think that the powers that be in Seattle retaking back their own city was going to be Attica 2? That is your opinion, I don't respect it and I think you are 100% dead ass wrong. I suppose it had to happen sooner or later that one of these days you were bound to be wrong about something. If you would ever have the humility to ever admit you are capable of being wrong, that is a discussion for another time. How long have you been married? Our spouses always take great pride in letting us know when we are wrong.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Gotem' https://therightscoop.com/feds-arrest-l ... r7DA_0QzxU

Lock him up.

[cradleandshoot]

You might have made friends with the new folks, salty, but Humper Dog, not so much. That boy's just trying to have a little fun.
Here's the latest from Ball Dog. Handsome fella.


Little break in the pool.
Ball in mouth, of course.

Beautiful dog Dmac. I see that tennis ball and it makes me feel sad about my yellow lab Jenna. She chased at least a million tennis balls in her 13 years. I use to call her Scooter Pie. I have a big glass jar with a bunch of her old tennis balls in it. I found a label from a Scooter Pie bar and I taped it to the jar. It is sitting right in front om me now with her picture next to it, with her tennis ball by her side. Our new pup could care less about chasing balls or playing with toys. She just follows me wherever I go and loves zooming in the backyard and chasing squirrels. She is a black lab/ beagle/ mutt I love her like crazy, i just miss the chasing balls routine Jenna and I had.

[cradleandshoot]

here's an interesting story- from CU Boulder: https://www.legitgov.org/cu-boulder-adm ... s-accepted

Try reading the entire actual memo, instead of right-wing blogs that misleadingly excerpt bits of it:

https://www.colorado.edu/today/newslett ... y-behavior

sheesh, do you guys want Branch Davidian outcome or CHOP outcome?
Make up your minds...

Of course the deaths and rape and destruction are appalling. But they did it to themselves, undermining the whole notion of taking and controlling ground with no civil order.

So, yeah, I approve of how the Seattle police, courts, and mayor handled this problem, given much worse alternatives. No anarchist heroes, no martyrs.

what happened in the last week+, after the 1st shootings and killing (along with other reports), that made the chop patrol less able to guard their flank in the dawn hours?

did they all of a sudden become vulnerable to sleeping in?

it seems the mayor's over/under was 2. yours may have been higher, but whether it was polling or public sentiment, buying in finally to a plan from the local force got greenlit.

Yup, it certainly would appear that the break down of order, killing, rape etc took the moral steam out of the protest. My guess is that made it easier to make the move, both from a public perception that it was justified and inside there may well have been an acceptance of the inevitability. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those protestors were sickened by the breakdown in the internal order and simply left or stood aside.

We'll never know what would have happened with a police assault earlier in this process. Would it have been simple to execute, no sweat, or would it have been met with rage and more violence, spawning even more outbreaks?

sorry, mdlax. you don't get to play what if on this one. only in your mind if you can't come to terms. there are circumstances where that could apply, but not here.

there were several shootings and a killing before this one. same circumstances. same chop army patrolling.

the mayor obviously didn't have a plan at the outset.
tried to negotiate and plea her way out of it, and all that did was drop another body. or 2.

you projecting "2 is enough" by the chop crowd is just that. 2 (or 3) was only enough for the mayor. we know how it turned out, bc it happened.

I'm just not as sure about all this as you seem to be.

We do know what happened. (or at least we mostly know)
No argument, except insofar as this wasn't passive citizens who fell victim to some criminals.
Nope, it was people doing the stupid stuff that people do in mobs.
The perps should be punished.

However, we don't know what would have happened had the police gone in heavy early.

Do you?
You sure it wouldn't have been a blood bath?
Some of these folks were armed.

And then what?

What we also know from how it played out is there were no martyrs.
And this particular sort of 'protest' lost a ton of 'legitimacy' if it ever had any at all. I don't think anyone on here was ever cheering this sort of action on. But much more important than folks like us, it lost legitimacy with fellow protesters. It backfired.

Or at least that's my current take.

there's a whole lot of things i'd have done differently if i were mayor for a day.

i wouldn't expect a mayor durkan to mirror those actions.

what we are talking about, is the timing of the action that WAS taken. a week late. there is little excuse for that. beyond whatever you feel about alleged rape, assault and destruction, there were multiple shootings and a killing.

time was up. we're not talking about your "heavy early, blood bath" misdirection. they could've taken the exact same action a week earlier, and did not. to me, it's inexcusable. you're good with it. her number was 2 or 3. even after having the option of getting out of there with 1 and then doing the exact same thing they did anyway.

don't agree with the call there at all and don't give her latitude at all for differing approaches after the first. and really can't fathom the mindframe of anyone in hindsight saying... yeah, was probably the way to go.

summer of love indeed.

Fair argument with the benefit of hindsight.
It'd be interesting to hear the Mayor's self reflection at some point.
Politicians rarely self-critique, but I wouldn't be surprised if she acknowledged that she wishes they'd moved at least some days sooner, given what actually went down in those last couple of days.

But we arm chair QB's really don't know what all the dynamics were with the coordination between the police chief, Mayor, council, activist community etc. They may have felt they were getting close to breaking through, only to have the facts on the ground go further sour.

My perspective is that the bottomline is this sort of protest action became far less "legitimate" as a course to take, as it devolved, a lesson for future actions. And no martyrs.

Those are positives.

Glass half full.

If there was a lesson to be learned maybe some of the folks could have came back and volunteered to clean up the mess they left behind. You would not even have to be a martyr to do that. Some times MD you are just so sophisticated and so far out there in left field you leave all of the rest of us peons behind you with your chain of thought. I don't mean to pick on you MD but you are just so full of philosophical bullchit.

[Peter Brown]

Democrats keep rioting in Portland every night...

Of course you won't hear about it in the MSM.

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/202 ... hange.html

[CU77]

"Of course you won't hear about it in the MSM" sez PB, before citing an MSM source.

The Oregonian is a daily newspaper based in Portland, Oregon, United States, owned by Advance Publications. It is the oldest continuously published newspaper on the U.S. west coast, founded as a weekly by Thomas J. Dryer on December 4, 1850, and published daily since 1861. It is the largest newspaper in Oregon and the second largest in the Pacific Northwest by circulation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oregonian

It's as ridiculous to point at one Democrat and say, See what Democrats do! as it is to point at one person at a BLM (related) rally, protest, etc. and say, Look at what BLM does!

Nice try Matnum, but PB will never ever get it.

[old salt]

well, you did think of it before, but great story nevertheless.
Treating people generously as people matters. And their dogs.

No -- I did not think about it before. You choose to miss the point completely.
Until I read this thread, I did not give a second thought to the fact that they were black.
That was the point. We all have such interactions which are easily forgotten & taken for granted.

[MDlaxfan76]

here's an interesting story- from CU Boulder: https://www.legitgov.org/cu-boulder-adm ... s-accepted

Try reading the entire actual memo, instead of right-wing blogs that misleadingly excerpt bits of it:

https://www.colorado.edu/today/newslett ... y-behavior

sheesh, do you guys want Branch Davidian outcome or CHOP outcome?
Make up your minds...

Of course the deaths and rape and destruction are appalling. But they did it to themselves, undermining the whole notion of taking and controlling ground with no civil order.

So, yeah, I approve of how the Seattle police, courts, and mayor handled this problem, given much worse alternatives. No anarchist heroes, no martyrs.

what happened in the last week+, after the 1st shootings and killing (along with other reports), that made the chop patrol less able to guard their flank in the dawn hours?

did they all of a sudden become vulnerable to sleeping in?

it seems the mayor's over/under was 2. yours may have been higher, but whether it was polling or public sentiment, buying in finally to a plan from the local force got greenlit.

Yup, it certainly would appear that the break down of order, killing, rape etc took the moral steam out of the protest. My guess is that made it easier to make the move, both from a public perception that it was justified and inside there may well have been an acceptance of the inevitability. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those protestors were sickened by the breakdown in the internal order and simply left or stood aside.

We'll never know what would have happened with a police assault earlier in this process. Would it have been simple to execute, no sweat, or would it have been met with rage and more violence, spawning even more outbreaks?

sorry, mdlax. you don't get to play what if on this one. only in your mind if you can't come to terms. there are circumstances where that could apply, but not here.

there were several shootings and a killing before this one. same circumstances. same chop army patrolling.

the mayor obviously didn't have a plan at the outset.
tried to negotiate and plea her way out of it, and all that did was drop another body. or 2.

you projecting "2 is enough" by the chop crowd is just that. 2 (or 3) was only enough for the mayor. we know how it turned out, bc it happened.

I'm just not as sure about all this as you seem to be.

We do know what happened. (or at least we mostly know)
No argument, except insofar as this wasn't passive citizens who fell victim to some criminals.
Nope, it was people doing the stupid stuff that people do in mobs.
The perps should be punished.

However, we don't know what would have happened had the police gone in heavy early.

Do you?
You sure it wouldn't have been a blood bath?
Some of these folks were armed.

And then what?

What we also know from how it played out is there were no martyrs.
And this particular sort of 'protest' lost a ton of 'legitimacy' if it ever had any at all. I don't think anyone on here was ever cheering this sort of action on. But much more important than folks like us, it lost legitimacy with fellow protesters. It backfired.

Or at least that's my current take.

"No argument, except insofar as this wasn't passive citizens who fell victim to some criminals."

No these were willing citizens who chose to become criminals. The minute they chose to take over part of Seattle they purposefully denied the rest of their fellow citizens free access to the city they pay their taxes to fund. They did not deserve any patience. They should have been evicted before the first tent stake went into the ground. MD you really seem to think that the powers that be in Seattle retaking back their own city was going to be Attica 2? That is your opinion, I don't respect it and I think you are 100% dead ass wrong. I suppose it had to happen sooner or later that one of these days you were bound to be wrong about something. If you would ever have the humility to ever admit you are capable of being wrong, that is a discussion for another time. How long have you been married? Our spouses always take great pride in letting us know when we are wrong.

40 years this August, 44 together, met freshmen week.

I don't have any problem with your opinion. It's an opinion.

But let's be clear, I didn't say they "deserve" patience, rather I think it was wise to be patient. Not deserved, but wise.

Wgdsr makes a good point that maybe a move a few days earlier would have been just as successful and would have avoided the last few days' losses. I say, maybe, but I wasn't on the ground dealing all the issues so won't go beyond maybe.

But yeah, meeting, with violence and force, a protest movement based on police violence had all the makings of great calamity and the making of martyrs, with all sorts of repercussions.

With patience, that was avoided and this sort of method of protest lost credibility and claim to 'legitimacy'. IMO, that could be very beneficial downstream. But that's just an opinion.

We disagree? I can live with that.

[MDlaxfan76]

well, you did think of it before, but great story nevertheless.
Treating people generously as people matters. And their dogs.

No -- I did not think about it before. You choose to miss the point completely.
Until I read this thread, I did not give a second thought to the fact that they were black.
That was the point. We all have such interactions which are easily forgotten & taken for granted.

ohh, I got the point and completely embrace it.

I wasn't suggesting that you were particularly conscious of their race during your interaction or even immediately afterwards, just that you did think of it before deciding to tell the story. It wasn't relevant absent that consideration. No criticism at all in my noting that.

I believe you that you treated them in all sincerity as a fellow dog family, not based on any other characteristics than just another family. What is nice about that interaction also had nothing to with race. The warmth I felt about the story also had nothing to do with their race. It was just a nice story of someone being nice to someone else.

The story I told unfortunately had a racial component to the interaction, whether intended or not. It very likely was experienced as such, and it was unfortunate.

[MDlaxfan76]

here's an interesting story- from CU Boulder: https://www.legitgov.org/cu-boulder-adm ... s-accepted

Try reading the entire actual memo, instead of right-wing blogs that misleadingly excerpt bits of it:

https://www.colorado.edu/today/newslett ... y-behavior

sheesh, do you guys want Branch Davidian outcome or CHOP outcome?
Make up your minds...

Of course the deaths and rape and destruction are appalling. But they did it to themselves, undermining the whole notion of taking and controlling ground with no civil order.

So, yeah, I approve of how the Seattle police, courts, and mayor handled this problem, given much worse alternatives. No anarchist heroes, no martyrs.

what happened in the last week+, after the 1st shootings and killing (along with other reports), that made the chop patrol less able to guard their flank in the dawn hours?

did they all of a sudden become vulnerable to sleeping in?

it seems the mayor's over/under was 2. yours may have been higher, but whether it was polling or public sentiment, buying in finally to a plan from the local force got greenlit.

Yup, it certainly would appear that the break down of order, killing, rape etc took the moral steam out of the protest. My guess is that made it easier to make the move, both from a public perception that it was justified and inside there may well have been an acceptance of the inevitability. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those protestors were sickened by the breakdown in the internal order and simply left or stood aside.

We'll never know what would have happened with a police assault earlier in this process. Would it have been simple to execute, no sweat, or would it have been met with rage and more violence, spawning even more outbreaks?

sorry, mdlax. you don't get to play what if on this one. only in your mind if you can't come to terms. there are circumstances where that could apply, but not here.

there were several shootings and a killing before this one. same circumstances. same chop army patrolling.

the mayor obviously didn't have a plan at the outset.
tried to negotiate and plea her way out of it, and all that did was drop another body. or 2.

you projecting "2 is enough" by the chop crowd is just that. 2 (or 3) was only enough for the mayor. we know how it turned out, bc it happened.

I'm just not as sure about all this as you seem to be.

We do know what happened. (or at least we mostly know)
No argument, except insofar as this wasn't passive citizens who fell victim to some criminals.
Nope, it was people doing the stupid stuff that people do in mobs.
The perps should be punished.

However, we don't know what would have happened had the police gone in heavy early.

Do you?
You sure it wouldn't have been a blood bath?
Some of these folks were armed.

And then what?

What we also know from how it played out is there were no martyrs.
And this particular sort of 'protest' lost a ton of 'legitimacy' if it ever had any at all. I don't think anyone on here was ever cheering this sort of action on. But much more important than folks like us, it lost legitimacy with fellow protesters. It backfired.

Or at least that's my current take.

there's a whole lot of things i'd have done differently if i were mayor for a day.

i wouldn't expect a mayor durkan to mirror those actions.

what we are talking about, is the timing of the action that WAS taken. a week late. there is little excuse for that. beyond whatever you feel about alleged rape, assault and destruction, there were multiple shootings and a killing.

time was up. we're not talking about your "heavy early, blood bath" misdirection. they could've taken the exact same action a week earlier, and did not. to me, it's inexcusable. you're good with it. her number was 2 or 3. even after having the option of getting out of there with 1 and then doing the exact same thing they did anyway.

don't agree with the call there at all and don't give her latitude at all for differing approaches after the first. and really can't fathom the mindframe of anyone in hindsight saying... yeah, was probably the way to go.

summer of love indeed.

Fair argument with the benefit of hindsight.
It'd be interesting to hear the Mayor's self reflection at some point.
Politicians rarely self-critique, but I wouldn't be surprised if she acknowledged that she wishes they'd moved at least some days sooner, given what actually went down in those last couple of days.

But we arm chair QB's really don't know what all the dynamics were with the coordination between the police chief, Mayor, council, activist community etc. They may have felt they were getting close to breaking through, only to have the facts on the ground go further sour.

My perspective is that the bottomline is this sort of protest action became far less "legitimate" as a course to take, as it devolved, a lesson for future actions. And no martyrs.

Those are positives.

Glass half full.

If there was a lesson to be learned maybe some of the folks could have came back and volunteered to clean up the mess they left behind. You would not even have to be a martyr to do that. Some times MD you are just so sophisticated and so far out there in left field you leave all of the rest of us peons behind you with your chain of thought. I don't mean to pick on you MD but you are just so full of philosophical bullchit.

Again, free country, you're free to think what you want.