Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[MDlaxfan76]

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

The best thing for kids is to have an intact nuclear family AND also the back-up of an extended family/village. The best thing is belt and suspenders.

The nuclear family only model is a pretty recent development. And the evidence overwhelmingly shows that it is extremely fragile and often unsustainable. Especially in today's economy where the family often has to rely upon two pay checks.

Commercial daycare has to replace a family caretaker (mom, grandmom, aunt, neighbor). And boy does the nuclear family only model collapse (economically and emotionally) if the mom/dad relationship goes south (whether the parents stay together or not).

The kids are so much better off if their economic and emotional well-being is not 100% dependent on (i) both mom and dad always staying continuously employed and (ii) always staying happily married. If the nuclear family hits a speed bump, it often crumbles. And that's when grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins can pick up the slack for the great benefit of the kids.

Even though yucky Hillary said it, it is true. It does take a village.

Terrific article by David Brooks deep diving into this topic. Highly recommended.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ke/605536/

Yes. In the “old days” a whole neighborhood looked out for kids and could even get on them when they got out of line....it was good for everyone. Had nothing to do with “single mom’s”. Economics have already disinter-mediated parents with daycare. It’s very hard for a mom to stay at home and have a decent standard of living.

Because wages for non-college educated people actually fell in real terms over the last 30 years. Shipping jobs overseas and importing cheap labor, legal or illegal, drove down wages. The labor class' wages have been rising since Trump took office. And if you're looking to give Obama credit, google 'Obama Magic Wand ' and see if he had any intent to change the fortunes of the middle class. Dems would rather go back to the old feudal system, where finance guys make the money and feed the dependent lower class just enough to keep them from turning on them. "Let them eat cake".

It worked out for me.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/amp ... 1028833119

ahhh, those pesky facts.

[Peter Brown]

Law and Order!
Lock'em up. But why aren't the fathers around?
Nah, no systemic racism...

So unaware.

It's not systemic "racism" that had Brooks on 'probation'; it's systemic judicial abuse. The system doesn't care if you are black or white; it only wants to incarcerate you and keep you incarcerated. Probation is the lever to keep the doors revolving with prisoners. Brooks was on probation; being arrested again for a DUI would've lading him back in prison. He wasn't scared of white police; he was scared of the system trapping him inside iron bars yet again. That's why he fought and ran.

But you're perfectly fine with 30 Special Forces raiding Stone because Orange Man Bad! That is a systemic problem.

You can't understand how the entire system is rotten because you're too busy being woke.

So you support the penal system not being for profit?

Of course I don't support any for-profit prison system. Grotesque and barbaric. How does a company do well within that framework? By creating more prisoners; they certainly aren't agitating for less. Who would is a better question.

I still find it amazing how easily so many Americans fall into the trap of applauding a penal system which is so awful. I keep going back to Roger Stone's arrest as an example where people here like MD and a fan and others say 'it worked out great, no problem!' without once pausing to consider how that attitude of revenge/excess permeates our entire justice system, from the smallest petty crime to the shooting of Brooks in Atlanta.

[MDlaxfan76]

Law and Order!
Lock'em up. But why aren't the fathers around?
Nah, no systemic racism...

So unaware.

It's not systemic "racism" that had Brooks on 'probation'; it's systemic judicial abuse. The system doesn't care if you are black or white; it only wants to incarcerate you and keep you incarcerated. Probation is the lever to keep the doors revolving with prisoners. Brooks was on probation; being arrested again for a DUI would've lading him back in prison. He wasn't scared of white police; he was scared of the system trapping him inside iron bars yet again. That's why he fought and ran.

But you're perfectly fine with 30 Special Forces raiding Stone because Orange Man Bad! That is a systemic problem.

You can't understand how the entire system is rotten because you're too busy being woke.

So you support the penal system not being for profit?

Of course I don't support any for-profit prison system. Grotesque and barbaric. How does a company do well within that framework? By creating more prisoners; they certainly aren't agitating for less. Who would is a better question.

Painfully for us Republicans, the answer to 'who would' is a whole bunch of Republicans do...https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/ ... ?ind=G7000

Glad we found one where we agree, PB.
It's been increasingly rare.

I take Mother Jones with a huge grain of salt:https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... elections/

Here's a CNBC article that gets to the heart of the current reality:https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/02/why-pri ... trump.html

[Peter Brown]

Law and Order!
Lock'em up. But why aren't the fathers around?
Nah, no systemic racism...

So unaware.

It's not systemic "racism" that had Brooks on 'probation'; it's systemic judicial abuse. The system doesn't care if you are black or white; it only wants to incarcerate you and keep you incarcerated. Probation is the lever to keep the doors revolving with prisoners. Brooks was on probation; being arrested again for a DUI would've lading him back in prison. He wasn't scared of white police; he was scared of the system trapping him inside iron bars yet again. That's why he fought and ran.

But you're perfectly fine with 30 Special Forces raiding Stone because Orange Man Bad! That is a systemic problem.

You can't understand how the entire system is rotten because you're too busy being woke.

So you support the penal system not being for profit?

Of course I don't support any for-profit prison system. Grotesque and barbaric. How does a company do well within that framework? By creating more prisoners; they certainly aren't agitating for less. Who would is a better question.

Painfully for us Republicans, the answer to 'who would' is a whole bunch of Republicans do...

Glad we found one where we agree, PB.
It's been increasingly rare.

It's barbaric. But I don;t let you so easily off the hook, MD. You are fine with excessive police tactics a la the Stone arrest. YOu can't say you're good with that but also against for profit prisons, because it is the EXACT SAME mentality which spreads throughout our culture of excessive punishment and tactics that connects one with the other.

[a fan]

It's not systemic "racism" that had Brooks on 'probation'; it's systemic judicial abuse. The system doesn't care if you are black or white; it only wants to incarcerate you and keep you incarcerated.

The system doesn't care if you're black or white? Riiiight.

When you were at HS, could you get illegal drugs? I was at Columbine HS in suburban Colorado back in the mid 80's, and you could get pretty much anything.

I can't recall one single time a kid was arrested for possession, let alone distribution.

Meanwhile, how do you think my urban counterparts were treated for doing the same thing in their neighborhoods?

And that's just one example.

[MDlaxfan76]

Law and Order!
Lock'em up. But why aren't the fathers around?
Nah, no systemic racism...

So unaware.

It's not systemic "racism" that had Brooks on 'probation'; it's systemic judicial abuse. The system doesn't care if you are black or white; it only wants to incarcerate you and keep you incarcerated. Probation is the lever to keep the doors revolving with prisoners. Brooks was on probation; being arrested again for a DUI would've lading him back in prison. He wasn't scared of white police; he was scared of the system trapping him inside iron bars yet again. That's why he fought and ran.

But you're perfectly fine with 30 Special Forces raiding Stone because Orange Man Bad! That is a systemic problem.

You can't understand how the entire system is rotten because you're too busy being woke.

So you support the penal system not being for profit?

Of course I don't support any for-profit prison system. Grotesque and barbaric. How does a company do well within that framework? By creating more prisoners; they certainly aren't agitating for less. Who would is a better question.

Painfully for us Republicans, the answer to 'who would' is a whole bunch of Republicans do...

Glad we found one where we agree, PB.
It's been increasingly rare.

It's barbaric. But I don;t let you so easily off the hook, MD. You are fine with excessive police tactics a la the Stone arrest. YOu can't say you're good with that but also against for profit prisons, because it is the EXACT SAME mentality which spreads throughout our culture of excessive punishment and tactics that connects one with the other.

Again, I really don't agree that it was "excessive" in Stone's case, much less EXACT SAME anything with shooting a fleeing guy in the back, much less for-profit prisons.

Now, if we had a whistle blower come forward and tell us, 'yeah, we really wanted to scare the pants off Roger and send a message to all those other Trump dirt bags' I could get on board that it was 'excessive'.

But it wasn't a no-knock warrant and there was very real concern about the need to take him by surprise. It involved no more than the embarrassment of being treated like the criminal he is.

Now, if you want to tell me that the FBI or SWAT should never exercise an arrest or search warrant first thing in the AM, should never bring overwhelming presence so as to be avoid or be prepared for a violent response...

But if this is more like cradle's plea that he's just a pasty-faced harmless guy who didn't deserve it...then we're back to asking why white guys deserve better treatment...

[MDlaxfan76]

I added some links:

Of course I don't support any for-profit prison system. Grotesque and barbaric. How does a company do well within that framework? By creating more prisoners; they certainly aren't agitating for less. Who would is a better question.

Painfully for us Republicans, the answer to 'who would' is a whole bunch of Republicans do...https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/ ... ?ind=G7000

Glad we found one where we agree, PB.
It's been increasingly rare.

I take Mother Jones with a huge grain of salt: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... elections/

Here's a CNBC article that gets to the heart of the current reality: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/02/why-pri ... trump.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/04/private ... kdown.html

[a fan]

I keep going back to Roger Stone's arrest as an example where people here like MD and a fan and others say 'it worked out great, no problem!' without once pausing to consider how that attitude of revenge/excess permeates our entire justice system, from the smallest petty crime to the shooting of Brooks in Atlanta.

This coming from the guy who makes fun of those who want to reform policing in their communities.

You want to let rich, white Roger Stone surrender to authorities in his sweet time. Meanwhile, poor Americans get no knock warrants served with armed police. You want one set of rules for how the rich are served warrants, and one set of rules for the poor. And you're telling me that you're "confused" as to why I'm not on board with this?

Let me know when you want to change the police policy to serving those warrants while completely unarmed, and sending in one guy to do that job. I'm sure your Republican party will sign on to that on the spot.

[Farfromgeneva]

I got five on it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HSC9cgvtkRs

[foreverlax]

Law and Order!
Lock'em up. But why aren't the fathers around?
Nah, no systemic racism...

So unaware.

It's not systemic "racism" that had Brooks on 'probation'; it's systemic judicial abuse. The system doesn't care if you are black or white; it only wants to incarcerate you and keep you incarcerated. Probation is the lever to keep the doors revolving with prisoners. Brooks was on probation; being arrested again for a DUI would've lading him back in prison. He wasn't scared of white police; he was scared of the system trapping him inside iron bars yet again. That's why he fought and ran.

But you're perfectly fine with 30 Special Forces raiding Stone because Orange Man Bad! That is a systemic problem.

You can't understand how the entire system is rotten because you're too busy being woke.

So you support the penal system not being for profit?

Of course I don't support any for-profit prison system. Grotesque and barbaric. How does a company do well within that framework? By creating more prisoners; they certainly aren't agitating for less. Who would is a better question.

I still find it amazing how easily so many Americans fall into the trap of applauding a penal system which is so awful. I keep going back to Roger Stone's arrest as an example where people here like MD and a fan and others say 'it worked out great, no problem!' without once pausing to consider how that attitude of revenge/excess permeates our entire justice system, from the smallest petty crime to the shooting of Brooks in Atlanta.

We agreed that prisons shouldn't be for profit.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/18/tech/fac ... index.html

[foreverlax]

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

The best thing for kids is to have an intact nuclear family AND also the back-up of an extended family/village. The best thing is belt and suspenders.

The nuclear family only model is a pretty recent development. And the evidence overwhelmingly shows that it is extremely fragile and often unsustainable. Especially in today's economy where the family often has to rely upon two pay checks.

Commercial daycare has to replace a family caretaker (mom, grandmom, aunt, neighbor). And boy does the nuclear family only model collapse (economically and emotionally) if the mom/dad relationship goes south (whether the parents stay together or not).

The kids are so much better off if their economic and emotional well-being is not 100% dependent on (i) both mom and dad always staying continuously employed and (ii) always staying happily married. If the nuclear family hits a speed bump, it often crumbles. And that's when grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins can pick up the slack for the great benefit of the kids.

Even though yucky Hillary said it, it is true. It does take a village.

Terrific article by David Brooks deep diving into this topic. Highly recommended.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ke/605536/

GG - great find!! Title will keep some from taking the time...


The Nuclear Family Was a Mistake
The family structure we’ve held up as the cultural ideal for the past half century has been a catastrophe for many. It’s time to figure out better ways to live together.

real truth...

"Finally, over the past two generations, families have grown more unequal. America now has two entirely different family regimes. Among the highly educated, family patterns are almost as stable as they were in the 1950s; among the less fortunate, family life is often utter chaos. There’s a reason for that divide: Affluent people have the resources to effectively buy extended family, in order to shore themselves up. Think of all the child-rearing labor affluent parents now buy that used to be done by extended kin: babysitting, professional child care, tutoring, coaching, therapy, expensive after-school programs. (For that matter, think of how the affluent can hire therapists and life coaches for themselves, as replacement for kin or close friends.) These expensive tools and services not only support children’s development and help prepare them to compete in the meritocracy; by reducing stress and time commitments for parents, they preserve the amity of marriage. Affluent conservatives often pat themselves on the back for having stable nuclear families. They preach that everybody else should build stable families too. But then they ignore one of the main reasons their own families are stable: They can afford to purchase the support that extended family used to provide—and that the people they preach at, further down the income scale, cannot."

[jhu72]

Are posters here telling us that cops have both the Right and Training to be both Judge AND Executioner?

… some clearly like it that way, certainly when it comes to people of color

How many is some? The vagueness of your post does little to bolster your argument. And of those that want to be executioner, how many only want to kill people of color? How many unjustified killings of black people were there? Without adjudicating Rayshard Brooks death, George Floyd is certainly the most recent example. If this were an epidemic, why haven't we seen massive unrest on a continual basis? Of the 9 unarmed black people killed in 2019 in police interactions about half involved physical confrontations and attempts to take an officers weapon and become an armed person.

Sure, we need better hiring and training practices, but let's not ignore what creates too many interactions. Remember, most of these interactions occur in cities with Democrats in control of the Mayor's Office, District Attorney and Chief of Police. I don't believe they are racists. They are just focusing on the wrong things and many times painting others as villains to deflect from their own failures. People of all colors, including whites, are more likely to live in poverty and have police interactions when there is no father present in the house, more so in urban settings where there is a presence of police in closer proximity to the population.

And yet what group want's to eliminate the "nuclear family" from the black community? I will give you three guesses but the first two don't count. This is from a tab on a website titled "What we believe":

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

Where does the word "father" appear?

… this old saw. A conservative church lady fantasy narrative (not so sure calling it conservative is fair any longer - I know actual conservatives who understand this if BS). Like no black (or white) kid who runs afoul of the law has a father. And of course this is all the fault of democrats. Have you ever talked to a black man about raising his children (more specifically SONS)? The challenges -- that you as a white man don't face!

The fact that lack of fathers is a problem DOES NOT mean it is the problem. I have personally spoken with enough of a sample of black fathers about raising their sons to feel pretty confident they have a special problem. It is called systematic racism. They know it when they see it, and they see it daily. Sure it is better than it used to be, but it does exist. It is real. Because you don't see (of course you don't - you are white) doesn't mean it does not exist.

To change the subject only a little -- put me in the class of white men who doesn't trust the police. My interactions - by the book - with them show them to have significant problems in interacting with citizens, the people they are supposed to serve and protect. I have been noticing this since the 80s. It is not new, and it is getting worse IMO. I am not talking about the call it 5% bad COPs - it is the entire force. I don't think I am the only white man who has lost trust and respect for these folks over the last 20 - 40 years. It is the system, it is broken, it must and will be fixed. It is more than just retraining - it will require them to see their job differently. A fan, above, puts his finger on how to see it differently. He is absolutely correct in his assessment of the Brooks incident (he is not the first - this discussion has been had many times). They need to stop thinking with their balls and start thinking with their brains. Needless confrontation is stupid and expensive. It is the system.

PS - if you don't think this is wrapped up in the question of gun control - think again.

There is racism and there will always be racism because there will always be stupid people. Systemic? I don't buy it. The societal penalty for being a real racist is too stiff and only those stupid people can't see it. Racism is a problem of the heart, not the intellect. Groups like skinheads and the KKK are marginalized by society. The only organized racism is your "paternalism" for treating black adults like your children.

Paternalism is the job of fathers!!! So let's do nothing about a problem that could be addressed without much financial investment, just educating all people on how to increase their chances of success. Feminists would likely go nuts about the "Patriarchy", which has only proven to improve lives for many centuries. So let's let a bunch of entitled third wave feminists and uncaring liberals dictate the fate of people they don't know any more than I do.

You need to spend some time talking to some black fathers about their experiences and those of their children. It would be time well spent.

You mean the fathers unmentioned and actually shown hostility by your pals at BLM, which is about socialsim, not black lives? I would also never presume that you need to do anything. You might suggest I should, but telling me I need to do anything is an insult. Maybe you should to go talk to the white kid who had the stuffing beaten out of him on the boardwalk in Ocean City, but it won't be me telling you need to do anything Mr. Totalitarian.

I have done it, more than once, or twice. The suggestion was not meant as an insult. It was meant as good advice. Your position is the black fathers I have spoken with are all liars. You without the experience (like myself, without the experience) don't understand (in my case didn't). You need to walk a mile in their shoes so to speak to understand how pervasive it is. It does not keep one from succeeding, necessarily. It does however grind on you every day. It causes worry for your child that doesn't exist for white fathers. Not saying white fathers don't have legitimate concerns, just not the same set of concerns as the black father.

You ever walk into a store and immediately pick up a tail, how about your son?; how about walk by a standing car and heard the door locks latch?; flag down a cab, not busy, have the driver stare at you and drive on by - how about 3 or 4 cabs in a row, daily?; etc. The simple things in life just being made more difficult, more frustrating. You live in an upscale expensive neighborhood, nice neighbors, you ever worry when your teenage son goes out to play basketball with friends at the local basketball court, he may not be coming home? The experience of everyday life is different. There is not one of you - NOT ONE - who would experience these things regularly, daily and not be ticked off and frustrated at the fact that you are being treated differently - singled out.

[jhu72]

"I was the chief of police in Camden, N.J., when we concluded the most violent year in our history. In 2012, we tallied 67 homicides, 172 shooting victims and 175 open-air drug markets. Children couldn’t walk safely to school. Cops left crime scenes unattended to respond to the next shooting; it was nonstop. Camden was ranked the most dangerous city in the country, with a murder rate more than 18 times the national average. More people were killed in our town of 77,000 than were killed that year in Hawaii, North Dakota, South Dakota, New Hampshire and Wyoming combined.

"And police were not always helping. The city needed guardians, but officers often saw themselves as warriors seeking to dominate criminals through toughness. Citizens didn’t trust us, and efforts to arrest our way to law and order clearly weren’t working. As chief, I was handcuffed by legacy work rules and binding arbitrator decisions that made it difficult to hold officers accountable for misconduct or poor performance. I couldn’t even reassign officers on desk duty to the street to suppress spiking gun violence.

"So we started from scratch. We let every city police officer go and created a new department with new rules in 2013. By agreement with Camden County, the city ceased to fund its department and instead paid the county to police the city of Camden. We required all officers to apply as new hires (most officers from the old force got jobs, but not all) and committed to a new relationship between Camden’s police and its citizens, around 95 percent of whom are minorities.

"It worked. At the end of 2019, homicides in Camden were down 63 percent, and total crime is the lowest it has been in decades. Fewer mothers are burying children, and flagrant drug crime is radically reduced. Here’s how we did it." J. Scott Thomson

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... story.html

Had read this. It is a good model. Won't work everywhere but it will work enough places to make a difference and put the rest on notice. Frankly I don't get all the police apologists. They think society just has to give them whatever they (the police) want. These same folks if any other unionized group pulled the crap the police unions do would be calling for everyone associated with slowdowns and such to be fired. They loved firing air traffic controllers, teachers and garbage men. Police are a protected class I guess to these people.

The system isn't working. Why keep paying for the sh*ty service?

[get it to x]

Are posters here telling us that cops have both the Right and Training to be both Judge AND Executioner?

… some clearly like it that way, certainly when it comes to people of color

How many is some? The vagueness of your post does little to bolster your argument. And of those that want to be executioner, how many only want to kill people of color? How many unjustified killings of black people were there? Without adjudicating Rayshard Brooks death, George Floyd is certainly the most recent example. If this were an epidemic, why haven't we seen massive unrest on a continual basis? Of the 9 unarmed black people killed in 2019 in police interactions about half involved physical confrontations and attempts to take an officers weapon and become an armed person.

Sure, we need better hiring and training practices, but let's not ignore what creates too many interactions. Remember, most of these interactions occur in cities with Democrats in control of the Mayor's Office, District Attorney and Chief of Police. I don't believe they are racists. They are just focusing on the wrong things and many times painting others as villains to deflect from their own failures. People of all colors, including whites, are more likely to live in poverty and have police interactions when there is no father present in the house, more so in urban settings where there is a presence of police in closer proximity to the population.

And yet what group want's to eliminate the "nuclear family" from the black community? I will give you three guesses but the first two don't count. This is from a tab on a website titled "What we believe":

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

Where does the word "father" appear?

… this old saw. A conservative church lady fantasy narrative (not so sure calling it conservative is fair any longer - I know actual conservatives who understand this if BS). Like no black (or white) kid who runs afoul of the law has a father. And of course this is all the fault of democrats. Have you ever talked to a black man about raising his children (more specifically SONS)? The challenges -- that you as a white man don't face!

The fact that lack of fathers is a problem DOES NOT mean it is the problem. I have personally spoken with enough of a sample of black fathers about raising their sons to feel pretty confident they have a special problem. It is called systematic racism. They know it when they see it, and they see it daily. Sure it is better than it used to be, but it does exist. It is real. Because you don't see (of course you don't - you are white) doesn't mean it does not exist.

To change the subject only a little -- put me in the class of white men who doesn't trust the police. My interactions - by the book - with them show them to have significant problems in interacting with citizens, the people they are supposed to serve and protect. I have been noticing this since the 80s. It is not new, and it is getting worse IMO. I am not talking about the call it 5% bad COPs - it is the entire force. I don't think I am the only white man who has lost trust and respect for these folks over the last 20 - 40 years. It is the system, it is broken, it must and will be fixed. It is more than just retraining - it will require them to see their job differently. A fan, above, puts his finger on how to see it differently. He is absolutely correct in his assessment of the Brooks incident (he is not the first - this discussion has been had many times). They need to stop thinking with their balls and start thinking with their brains. Needless confrontation is stupid and expensive. It is the system.

PS - if you don't think this is wrapped up in the question of gun control - think again.

There is racism and there will always be racism because there will always be stupid people. Systemic? I don't buy it. The societal penalty for being a real racist is too stiff and only those stupid people can't see it. Racism is a problem of the heart, not the intellect. Groups like skinheads and the KKK are marginalized by society. The only organized racism is your "paternalism" for treating black adults like your children.

Paternalism is the job of fathers!!! So let's do nothing about a problem that could be addressed without much financial investment, just educating all people on how to increase their chances of success. Feminists would likely go nuts about the "Patriarchy", which has only proven to improve lives for many centuries. So let's let a bunch of entitled third wave feminists and uncaring liberals dictate the fate of people they don't know any more than I do.

You need to spend some time talking to some black fathers about their experiences and those of their children. It would be time well spent.

You mean the fathers unmentioned and actually shown hostility by your pals at BLM, which is about socialsim, not black lives? I would also never presume that you need to do anything. You might suggest I should, but telling me I need to do anything is an insult. Maybe you should to go talk to the white kid who had the stuffing beaten out of him on the boardwalk in Ocean City, but it won't be me telling you need to do anything Mr. Totalitarian.

I have done it, more than once, or twice. The suggestion was not meant as an insult. It was meant as good advice. Your position is the black fathers I have spoken with are all liars. You without the experience (like myself, without the experience) don't understand (in my case didn't). You need to walk a mile in their shoes so to speak to understand how pervasive it is. It does not keep one from succeeding, necessarily. It does however grind on you every day. It causes worry for your child that doesn't exist for white fathers. Not saying white fathers don't have legitimate concerns, just not the same set of concerns as the black father.

You ever walk into a store and immediately pick up a tail, how about your son?; how about walk by a standing car and heard the door locks latch?; flag down a cab, not busy, have the driver stare at you and drive on by - how about 3 or 4 cabs in a row, daily?; etc. The simple things in life just being made more difficult, more frustrating. You live in an upscale expensive neighborhood, nice neighbors, you ever worry when your teenage son goes out to play basketball with friends at the local basketball court, he may not be coming home? The experience of everyday life is different. There is not one of you - NOT ONE - who would experience these things regularly, daily and not be ticked off and frustrated at the fact that you are being treated differently - singled out.

I must have been tailed because I got caught a couple times shoplifting when I was around 13. I'm a slow learner. I have more than a handful of black clients, and their views are as diverse as ours, but almost all agree things are getting better between the races. We agree there is racism. We agree its intellectually lazy, just as calling someone a racist is. They have acknowledged that it was way different when they were young. BTW, I live in a townhouse community of about 60 homes. Probably 60% white. Broadneck HS district. There are probably a racist or two in the neighborhood, but I would be hard pressed to pick them out. We all say hi, stop and chat. I let my cats out around 10 this morning and sat on my stoop and watched my Asian (Korean??) neighbors talented 8 year old son stand in the common and practice his violin. Beautiful. Shouldn't we aspire for everyone to have that? Peace, safety and the opportunity to achieve anything without limitations.

[CU77]

I Was Mayor of Minneapolis. I Know Why Police Reforms Fail.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... il/613189/

[Typical Lax Dad]

Are posters here telling us that cops have both the Right and Training to be both Judge AND Executioner?

… some clearly like it that way, certainly when it comes to people of color

How many is some? The vagueness of your post does little to bolster your argument. And of those that want to be executioner, how many only want to kill people of color? How many unjustified killings of black people were there? Without adjudicating Rayshard Brooks death, George Floyd is certainly the most recent example. If this were an epidemic, why haven't we seen massive unrest on a continual basis? Of the 9 unarmed black people killed in 2019 in police interactions about half involved physical confrontations and attempts to take an officers weapon and become an armed person.

Sure, we need better hiring and training practices, but let's not ignore what creates too many interactions. Remember, most of these interactions occur in cities with Democrats in control of the Mayor's Office, District Attorney and Chief of Police. I don't believe they are racists. They are just focusing on the wrong things and many times painting others as villains to deflect from their own failures. People of all colors, including whites, are more likely to live in poverty and have police interactions when there is no father present in the house, more so in urban settings where there is a presence of police in closer proximity to the population.

And yet what group want's to eliminate the "nuclear family" from the black community? I will give you three guesses but the first two don't count. This is from a tab on a website titled "What we believe":

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

Where does the word "father" appear?

… this old saw. A conservative church lady fantasy narrative (not so sure calling it conservative is fair any longer - I know actual conservatives who understand this if BS). Like no black (or white) kid who runs afoul of the law has a father. And of course this is all the fault of democrats. Have you ever talked to a black man about raising his children (more specifically SONS)? The challenges -- that you as a white man don't face!

The fact that lack of fathers is a problem DOES NOT mean it is the problem. I have personally spoken with enough of a sample of black fathers about raising their sons to feel pretty confident they have a special problem. It is called systematic racism. They know it when they see it, and they see it daily. Sure it is better than it used to be, but it does exist. It is real. Because you don't see (of course you don't - you are white) doesn't mean it does not exist.

To change the subject only a little -- put me in the class of white men who doesn't trust the police. My interactions - by the book - with them show them to have significant problems in interacting with citizens, the people they are supposed to serve and protect. I have been noticing this since the 80s. It is not new, and it is getting worse IMO. I am not talking about the call it 5% bad COPs - it is the entire force. I don't think I am the only white man who has lost trust and respect for these folks over the last 20 - 40 years. It is the system, it is broken, it must and will be fixed. It is more than just retraining - it will require them to see their job differently. A fan, above, puts his finger on how to see it differently. He is absolutely correct in his assessment of the Brooks incident (he is not the first - this discussion has been had many times). They need to stop thinking with their balls and start thinking with their brains. Needless confrontation is stupid and expensive. It is the system.

PS - if you don't think this is wrapped up in the question of gun control - think again.

There is racism and there will always be racism because there will always be stupid people. Systemic? I don't buy it. The societal penalty for being a real racist is too stiff and only those stupid people can't see it. Racism is a problem of the heart, not the intellect. Groups like skinheads and the KKK are marginalized by society. The only organized racism is your "paternalism" for treating black adults like your children.

Paternalism is the job of fathers!!! So let's do nothing about a problem that could be addressed without much financial investment, just educating all people on how to increase their chances of success. Feminists would likely go nuts about the "Patriarchy", which has only proven to improve lives for many centuries. So let's let a bunch of entitled third wave feminists and uncaring liberals dictate the fate of people they don't know any more than I do.

You need to spend some time talking to some black fathers about their experiences and those of their children. It would be time well spent.

You mean the fathers unmentioned and actually shown hostility by your pals at BLM, which is about socialsim, not black lives? I would also never presume that you need to do anything. You might suggest I should, but telling me I need to do anything is an insult. Maybe you should to go talk to the white kid who had the stuffing beaten out of him on the boardwalk in Ocean City, but it won't be me telling you need to do anything Mr. Totalitarian.

I have done it, more than once, or twice. The suggestion was not meant as an insult. It was meant as good advice. Your position is the black fathers I have spoken with are all liars. You without the experience (like myself, without the experience) don't understand (in my case didn't). You need to walk a mile in their shoes so to speak to understand how pervasive it is. It does not keep one from succeeding, necessarily. It does however grind on you every day. It causes worry for your child that doesn't exist for white fathers. Not saying white fathers don't have legitimate concerns, just not the same set of concerns as the black father.

You ever walk into a store and immediately pick up a tail, how about your son?; how about walk by a standing car and heard the door locks latch?; flag down a cab, not busy, have the driver stare at you and drive on by - how about 3 or 4 cabs in a row, daily?; etc. The simple things in life just being made more difficult, more frustrating. You live in an upscale expensive neighborhood, nice neighbors, you ever worry when your teenage son goes out to play basketball with friends at the local basketball court, he may not be coming home? The experience of everyday life is different. There is not one of you - NOT ONE - who would experience these things regularly, daily and not be ticked off and frustrated at the fact that you are being treated differently - singled out.

I must have been tailed because I got caught a couple times shoplifting when I was around 13. I'm a slow learner. I have more than a handful of black clients, and their views are as diverse as ours, but almost all agree things are getting better between the races. We agree there is racism. We agree its intellectually lazy, just as calling someone a racist is. They have acknowledged that it was way different when they were young. BTW, I live in a townhouse community of about 60 homes. Probably 60% white. Broadneck HS district. There are probably a racist or two in the neighborhood, but I would be hard pressed to pick them out. We all say hi, stop and chat. I let my cats out around 10 this morning and sat on my stoop and watched my Asian (Korean??) neighbors talented 8 year old son stand in the common and practice his violin. Beautiful. Shouldn't we aspire for everyone to have that? Peace, safety and the opportunity to achieve anything without limitations.

You ever tell your “Black” clients that blacks are genetically predisposed to crime and lack intelligence and you have stats to back it up? And that they prefer being raised by the government?

[MDlaxfan76]

Are posters here telling us that cops have both the Right and Training to be both Judge AND Executioner?

… some clearly like it that way, certainly when it comes to people of color

How many is some? The vagueness of your post does little to bolster your argument. And of those that want to be executioner, how many only want to kill people of color? How many unjustified killings of black people were there? Without adjudicating Rayshard Brooks death, George Floyd is certainly the most recent example. If this were an epidemic, why haven't we seen massive unrest on a continual basis? Of the 9 unarmed black people killed in 2019 in police interactions about half involved physical confrontations and attempts to take an officers weapon and become an armed person.

Sure, we need better hiring and training practices, but let's not ignore what creates too many interactions. Remember, most of these interactions occur in cities with Democrats in control of the Mayor's Office, District Attorney and Chief of Police. I don't believe they are racists. They are just focusing on the wrong things and many times painting others as villains to deflect from their own failures. People of all colors, including whites, are more likely to live in poverty and have police interactions when there is no father present in the house, more so in urban settings where there is a presence of police in closer proximity to the population.

And yet what group want's to eliminate the "nuclear family" from the black community? I will give you three guesses but the first two don't count. This is from a tab on a website titled "What we believe":

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

Where does the word "father" appear?

… this old saw. A conservative church lady fantasy narrative (not so sure calling it conservative is fair any longer - I know actual conservatives who understand this if BS). Like no black (or white) kid who runs afoul of the law has a father. And of course this is all the fault of democrats. Have you ever talked to a black man about raising his children (more specifically SONS)? The challenges -- that you as a white man don't face!

The fact that lack of fathers is a problem DOES NOT mean it is the problem. I have personally spoken with enough of a sample of black fathers about raising their sons to feel pretty confident they have a special problem. It is called systematic racism. They know it when they see it, and they see it daily. Sure it is better than it used to be, but it does exist. It is real. Because you don't see (of course you don't - you are white) doesn't mean it does not exist.

To change the subject only a little -- put me in the class of white men who doesn't trust the police. My interactions - by the book - with them show them to have significant problems in interacting with citizens, the people they are supposed to serve and protect. I have been noticing this since the 80s. It is not new, and it is getting worse IMO. I am not talking about the call it 5% bad COPs - it is the entire force. I don't think I am the only white man who has lost trust and respect for these folks over the last 20 - 40 years. It is the system, it is broken, it must and will be fixed. It is more than just retraining - it will require them to see their job differently. A fan, above, puts his finger on how to see it differently. He is absolutely correct in his assessment of the Brooks incident (he is not the first - this discussion has been had many times). They need to stop thinking with their balls and start thinking with their brains. Needless confrontation is stupid and expensive. It is the system.

PS - if you don't think this is wrapped up in the question of gun control - think again.

There is racism and there will always be racism because there will always be stupid people. Systemic? I don't buy it. The societal penalty for being a real racist is too stiff and only those stupid people can't see it. Racism is a problem of the heart, not the intellect. Groups like skinheads and the KKK are marginalized by society. The only organized racism is your "paternalism" for treating black adults like your children.

Paternalism is the job of fathers!!! So let's do nothing about a problem that could be addressed without much financial investment, just educating all people on how to increase their chances of success. Feminists would likely go nuts about the "Patriarchy", which has only proven to improve lives for many centuries. So let's let a bunch of entitled third wave feminists and uncaring liberals dictate the fate of people they don't know any more than I do.

You need to spend some time talking to some black fathers about their experiences and those of their children. It would be time well spent.

You mean the fathers unmentioned and actually shown hostility by your pals at BLM, which is about socialsim, not black lives? I would also never presume that you need to do anything. You might suggest I should, but telling me I need to do anything is an insult. Maybe you should to go talk to the white kid who had the stuffing beaten out of him on the boardwalk in Ocean City, but it won't be me telling you need to do anything Mr. Totalitarian.

I have done it, more than once, or twice. The suggestion was not meant as an insult. It was meant as good advice. Your position is the black fathers I have spoken with are all liars. You without the experience (like myself, without the experience) don't understand (in my case didn't). You need to walk a mile in their shoes so to speak to understand how pervasive it is. It does not keep one from succeeding, necessarily. It does however grind on you every day. It causes worry for your child that doesn't exist for white fathers. Not saying white fathers don't have legitimate concerns, just not the same set of concerns as the black father.

You ever walk into a store and immediately pick up a tail, how about your son?; how about walk by a standing car and heard the door locks latch?; flag down a cab, not busy, have the driver stare at you and drive on by - how about 3 or 4 cabs in a row, daily?; etc. The simple things in life just being made more difficult, more frustrating. You live in an upscale expensive neighborhood, nice neighbors, you ever worry when your teenage son goes out to play basketball with friends at the local basketball court, he may not be coming home? The experience of everyday life is different. There is not one of you - NOT ONE - who would experience these things regularly, daily and not be ticked off and frustrated at the fact that you are being treated differently - singled out.

I must have been tailed because I got caught a couple times shoplifting when I was around 13. I'm a slow learner. I have more than a handful of black clients, and their views are as diverse as ours, but almost all agree things are getting better between the races. We agree there is racism. We agree its intellectually lazy, just as calling someone a racist is. They have acknowledged that it was way different when they were young. BTW, I live in a townhouse community of about 60 homes. Probably 60% white. Broadneck HS district. There are probably a racist or two in the neighborhood, but I would be hard pressed to pick them out. We all say hi, stop and chat. I let my cats out around 10 this morning and sat on my stoop and watched my Asian (Korean??) neighbors talented 8 year old son stand in the common and practice his violin. Beautiful. Shouldn't we aspire for everyone to have that? Peace, safety and the opportunity to achieve anything without limitations.

Broadneck, like the rest of America, has a long way to go:

2019

https://www.diversityinc.com/maryland-s ... cist-rant/

https://www.capitalgazette.com/educatio ... story.html

nearby more recently: https://patch.com/maryland/annearundel/ ... l-bathroom

2018
https://www.arundelpatriot.org/2018/03/ ... g-threats/

Of course, most folks really do wish for a better situation, as you describe.
It's just that the experience is different for majority versus minority folks...still today.

[get it to x]

Are posters here telling us that cops have both the Right and Training to be both Judge AND Executioner?

… some clearly like it that way, certainly when it comes to people of color

How many is some? The vagueness of your post does little to bolster your argument. And of those that want to be executioner, how many only want to kill people of color? How many unjustified killings of black people were there? Without adjudicating Rayshard Brooks death, George Floyd is certainly the most recent example. If this were an epidemic, why haven't we seen massive unrest on a continual basis? Of the 9 unarmed black people killed in 2019 in police interactions about half involved physical confrontations and attempts to take an officers weapon and become an armed person.

Sure, we need better hiring and training practices, but let's not ignore what creates too many interactions. Remember, most of these interactions occur in cities with Democrats in control of the Mayor's Office, District Attorney and Chief of Police. I don't believe they are racists. They are just focusing on the wrong things and many times painting others as villains to deflect from their own failures. People of all colors, including whites, are more likely to live in poverty and have police interactions when there is no father present in the house, more so in urban settings where there is a presence of police in closer proximity to the population.

And yet what group want's to eliminate the "nuclear family" from the black community? I will give you three guesses but the first two don't count. This is from a tab on a website titled "What we believe":

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

Where does the word "father" appear?

… this old saw. A conservative church lady fantasy narrative (not so sure calling it conservative is fair any longer - I know actual conservatives who understand this if BS). Like no black (or white) kid who runs afoul of the law has a father. And of course this is all the fault of democrats. Have you ever talked to a black man about raising his children (more specifically SONS)? The challenges -- that you as a white man don't face!

The fact that lack of fathers is a problem DOES NOT mean it is the problem. I have personally spoken with enough of a sample of black fathers about raising their sons to feel pretty confident they have a special problem. It is called systematic racism. They know it when they see it, and they see it daily. Sure it is better than it used to be, but it does exist. It is real. Because you don't see (of course you don't - you are white) doesn't mean it does not exist.

To change the subject only a little -- put me in the class of white men who doesn't trust the police. My interactions - by the book - with them show them to have significant problems in interacting with citizens, the people they are supposed to serve and protect. I have been noticing this since the 80s. It is not new, and it is getting worse IMO. I am not talking about the call it 5% bad COPs - it is the entire force. I don't think I am the only white man who has lost trust and respect for these folks over the last 20 - 40 years. It is the system, it is broken, it must and will be fixed. It is more than just retraining - it will require them to see their job differently. A fan, above, puts his finger on how to see it differently. He is absolutely correct in his assessment of the Brooks incident (he is not the first - this discussion has been had many times). They need to stop thinking with their balls and start thinking with their brains. Needless confrontation is stupid and expensive. It is the system.

PS - if you don't think this is wrapped up in the question of gun control - think again.

There is racism and there will always be racism because there will always be stupid people. Systemic? I don't buy it. The societal penalty for being a real racist is too stiff and only those stupid people can't see it. Racism is a problem of the heart, not the intellect. Groups like skinheads and the KKK are marginalized by society. The only organized racism is your "paternalism" for treating black adults like your children.

Paternalism is the job of fathers!!! So let's do nothing about a problem that could be addressed without much financial investment, just educating all people on how to increase their chances of success. Feminists would likely go nuts about the "Patriarchy", which has only proven to improve lives for many centuries. So let's let a bunch of entitled third wave feminists and uncaring liberals dictate the fate of people they don't know any more than I do.

You need to spend some time talking to some black fathers about their experiences and those of their children. It would be time well spent.

You mean the fathers unmentioned and actually shown hostility by your pals at BLM, which is about socialsim, not black lives? I would also never presume that you need to do anything. You might suggest I should, but telling me I need to do anything is an insult. Maybe you should to go talk to the white kid who had the stuffing beaten out of him on the boardwalk in Ocean City, but it won't be me telling you need to do anything Mr. Totalitarian.

I have done it, more than once, or twice. The suggestion was not meant as an insult. It was meant as good advice. Your position is the black fathers I have spoken with are all liars. You without the experience (like myself, without the experience) don't understand (in my case didn't). You need to walk a mile in their shoes so to speak to understand how pervasive it is. It does not keep one from succeeding, necessarily. It does however grind on you every day. It causes worry for your child that doesn't exist for white fathers. Not saying white fathers don't have legitimate concerns, just not the same set of concerns as the black father.

You ever walk into a store and immediately pick up a tail, how about your son?; how about walk by a standing car and heard the door locks latch?; flag down a cab, not busy, have the driver stare at you and drive on by - how about 3 or 4 cabs in a row, daily?; etc. The simple things in life just being made more difficult, more frustrating. You live in an upscale expensive neighborhood, nice neighbors, you ever worry when your teenage son goes out to play basketball with friends at the local basketball court, he may not be coming home? The experience of everyday life is different. There is not one of you - NOT ONE - who would experience these things regularly, daily and not be ticked off and frustrated at the fact that you are being treated differently - singled out.

I must have been tailed because I got caught a couple times shoplifting when I was around 13. I'm a slow learner. I have more than a handful of black clients, and their views are as diverse as ours, but almost all agree things are getting better between the races. We agree there is racism. We agree its intellectually lazy, just as calling someone a racist is. They have acknowledged that it was way different when they were young. BTW, I live in a townhouse community of about 60 homes. Probably 60% white. Broadneck HS district. There are probably a racist or two in the neighborhood, but I would be hard pressed to pick them out. We all say hi, stop and chat. I let my cats out around 10 this morning and sat on my stoop and watched my Asian (Korean??) neighbors talented 8 year old son stand in the common and practice his violin. Beautiful. Shouldn't we aspire for everyone to have that? Peace, safety and the opportunity to achieve anything without limitations.

Broadneck, like the rest of America, has a long way to go:

2019

https://www.diversityinc.com/maryland-s ... cist-rant/

https://www.capitalgazette.com/educatio ... story.html

nearby more recently: https://patch.com/maryland/annearundel/ ... l-bathroom

2018
https://www.arundelpatriot.org/2018/03/ ... g-threats/

Like I said, can't outlaw stupid. I'm sure things are peachy up in northern Baltimore County. Maybe not Loch Raven Village though. Because stupid, non-affluent people from different races rub up against each other only where there are different races of people. In the meantime, is there systemic racism when this happens to a Hispanic man?

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson ... s-n2570799

[Peter Brown]

I keep going back to Roger Stone's arrest as an example where people here like MD and a fan and others say 'it worked out great, no problem!' without once pausing to consider how that attitude of revenge/excess permeates our entire justice system, from the smallest petty crime to the shooting of Brooks in Atlanta.

This coming from the guy who makes fun of those who want to reform policing in their communities.

You want to let rich, white Roger Stone surrender to authorities in his sweet time. Meanwhile, poor Americans get no knock warrants served with armed police. You want one set of rules for how the rich are served warrants, and one set of rules for the poor. And you're telling me that you're "confused" as to why I'm not on board with this?

Let me know when you want to change the police policy to serving those warrants while completely unarmed, and sending in one guy to do that job. I'm sure your Republican party will sign on to that on the spot.

I can't answer every post here, so let this one suffice for you, MD, and forever.

I'm glad we are all onboard that for-profit prisons are inhumane, grotesque, and antithetical to America. That is good news., I take agreement when I can find it. And if Republicans have promoted them, shame on the Republican Party. I would tell you that for-profit prisons proliferated under Clinton, but that's ancient history the way our days roll buy now lol.

Getapo tactics, no-knock warrants, etc...should be reserved strictly for VIOLENT OFFENDERS. I am not sure why you guys keep saying the arrest of Stone is a no-biggie, nothing to see here deal. I fundamentally disagree. Look, I think the guy is putrid filth. But he was not accused of rape, murder,arson, or pedophilia. I have a huge problem when prosecutors abuse their privilege and recruit line agents to go heavy artillery in order to 'send a message', because the message the actually sent is 'the government can do what it wants'. That mentality filters all the way down to neighborhood beat police. If their cousins at the FBI can do that to a freaking tax fraudster, then what the heck do you think they are allowed to do to more-violent perps?! They can shoot them in the back, that's what. And you are condoning it all the way back to your hatred of a guy like Stone.

By the way, let's say that Stone heard a commotion outside his door at 6 am and loaded up thinking someone was trying to break into his house (which is very probable), then the feds shoot and kill him...was that worth the risk for a tax fraudster? Also, someone else posted this once here, do you really care if Stone beat it to Cuba to avoid arrest?! lol, I'd be happy if he did! We don't pay for his incarceration, we don't pay for his trial, and you still get to seize his assets. Sweet deal imo! You guys are too much about revenge and hatred. That impacts your inconsistent views of justice.