Israel and West Bank Settlements

[runrussellrun]

A lot of his family is Jewish.....

Really....you mean his daughter and her kids.

You should understand that conversion, in the eyes of the many orthodox Jews, i.e. the Orthodox Rabbinate, which controls religious life in Israel, does not accept Reform, Conservative and even some Orthodox conversions.

) Are YOU denying that Ivanka is NOT Jewish? I know this is the Zionist thread, but she and her children live it the USA, not Israel. Why you even bothered to log in to dispute this is weird. Her father is STILL a disgusting human being.

[foreverlax]

A lot of his family is Jewish.....

Really....you mean his daughter and her kids.

You should understand that conversion, in the eyes of the many orthodox Jews, i.e. the Orthodox Rabbinate, which controls religious life in Israel, does not accept Reform, Conservative and even some Orthodox conversions.

) Are YOU denying that Ivanka is NOT Jewish? I know this is the Zionist thread, but she and her children live it the USA, not Israel. Why you even bothered to log in to dispute this is weird. Her father is STILL a disgusting human being.

1. "Am I denying that Ivanka is not Jewish" - Trying to unwind your double negative question...are you asking me if I am accepting that Ivanka is Jewish. YES.

2. Why did I respond to Frito Boy - because Trump doesn't have a lot of Jewish family members.

3. Nothing weird from my end, there is no disputing that the vast majority of Jews would accept her conversion. I do find it fascinating, that some Orthodox Jews, specifically in Israel, don't see it the way I do.....for them it's as much about "ethnicity" as it is about "religion".

Israeli immigration law
Law of Return will accept an application for Israeli citizenship if there is proven documentation that any grandparent—not just the maternal grandmother—was Jewish. This does not mean that person is an "ethnic Jew", but Israeli immigration will accept that person because he or she has an ethnically Jewish connection, and because this same degree of connection was sufficient to be persecuted as a Jew by the Nazis.

I actually find it a bit offensive that a religion I would be willing to accept, wouldn't necessary recognize me as being "pure enough".

[MDlaxfan76]

How you are letting AFAN off the hook with calling Tommy J. a terrorist. What the heck. What do they teach kids at Hanover, NH? Enemy of what state?

You know what you want to know and ONLY what YOU want to know.

So...the Nation of Islam is not Muslim?? I think you were pretty clear about the Nation of Islam, which I happen to think is a bit more complex than how you described. That said, I quite agree that Farrakhan is a jerk and is virulently anti-semitic . I thought he was, individually, as well some of his close associates, pretty detestable from jump, but that didn't make the NOI followers "terrorists". On the other hand, I'm fine with the Southern Law Center's listing of the NOI as a 'hate group'.

Islam is indeed a very diverse set of ideological and theological groups. NOI is just one brand.

Hey, I have no idea if you buy into all the 'birther' baloney, the "He's an Arab" nonsense, or critiques of the "apology tour" or...'he and Michelle hate America'..or..
I can't keep up with where your head is at, day to day, much less over the years. But you definitely have immense disdain for Obama and somehow seek to link him to "terrorists", Islamic or otherwise. That is what you've demonstrated in just the last 48 hours.

Did I let afan "off the hook"?
I think I made clear that describing Ayers as a former terrorist is appropriate. Also a Professor, supposedly a 'reformed terrorist'.

If afan disagrees, he can do so for himself, I suspect.

NO....the NOI is does NOT teach the traditional Mulsim/Mohmed and Curly teachings. Fictional criters like "mr. Big head", aka, YAKUB, don't show up in the Koran. You need to get your head out more.

Yes, I have disdain for Obama, just like I do for tRump. The real question is, why don't you.

So, my issue with obama's ties to the NOI is one of white hate and anti-semitism. You clearly don't know the first thing about the NOI. [/quote]

Somehow, I'm thinking my exposure might be a bit more in depth than yours.

I'm not saying that the NOI's brand of Islam is one which I would prefer were I a Muslim, because, as you and I and the Southern Law Center agree, NOI is fairly described as a 'hate group' due to its black separatist ideology and major strains of anti-semitism. Farrakhan's embrace of Dianetics is a whole other level of whacko too. But yeah, NOI is Muslim too.

Again, Islam, like other major religions, has all sorts of splinters and sects, with differing theologies and even separate texts.

This comparison is probably not fair to LDS adherents, but Mormons are properly understood to be Christians, as they do believe in Christ as lord and savior, though they also believe in a different set of prophets, follow the book of Mormon, etc. Many Christians would reject that notion, believing that their own brand of Christianity is the 'only' way to be Christian. But standing back from personal beliefs, yup, Mormons are within Christianity, despite being quite apart in many aspects of their theology. That said, some splinters of that theology are definitely cult-like, though LDS itself has predominantly mainstreamed.

As to Obama, I have a bunch of issues with his Presidency, his policies, his judgments, but "disdain" or "anger" or "hate", the way some talk about him, not at all. And I find the slanders really distasteful and inappropriate.

Trump is an entirely different animal in my book. I still wouldn't use the word "hate"..."detest" maybe...!

[MDlaxfan76]

A lot of his family is Jewish.....

Really....you mean his daughter and her kids.

You should understand that conversion, in the eyes of the many orthodox Jews, i.e. the Orthodox Rabbinate, which controls religious life in Israel, does not accept Reform, Conservative and even some Orthodox conversions.

) Are YOU denying that Ivanka is NOT Jewish? I know this is the Zionist thread, but she and her children live it the USA, not Israel. Why you even bothered to log in to dispute this is weird. Her father is STILL a disgusting human being.

1. "Am I denying that Ivanka is not Jewish" - Trying to unwind your double negative question...are you asking me if I am accepting that Ivanka is Jewish. YES.

2. Why did I respond to Frito Boy - because Trump doesn't have a lot of Jewish family members.

3. Nothing weird from my end, there is no disputing that the vast majority of Jews would accept her conversion. I do find it fascinating, that some Orthodox Jews, specifically in Israel, don't see it the way I do.....for them it's as much about "ethnicity" as it is about "religion".

Israeli immigration law
Law of Return will accept an application for Israeli citizenship if there is proven documentation that any grandparent—not just the maternal grandmother—was Jewish. This does not mean that person is an "ethnic Jew", but Israeli immigration will accept that person because he or she has an ethnically Jewish connection, and because this same degree of connection was sufficient to be persecuted as a Jew by the Nazis.

I actually find it a bit offensive that a religion I would be willing to accept, wouldn't necessary recognize me as being "pure enough".

I quite agree with 99% of the above. That said, I think you may be mixing up, a little, the secular requirement of Jewish ancestry for automatic acceptance for citizenship in Israel, with how Orthodox Jews see conversion.

As explained in the quote you provided, the citizenship aspect, which is purely secular, is due to the same basis that was used by the Nazis to persecute Jews, regardless of their religious practices, including conversion to Christianity, etc.. Israel sees itself as a refuge from such persecution.

Orthodox Jews do accept conversion of those with no ethnic relationship to Judaism. They do not promote or seek it, but they do accept it. But it needs to be a conversion as an Orthodox Jew, and it's supposed to be a real conversion of faith and observance, not of convenience. They do not recognize conversions to other denominations as sufficient in that regard.

Note that just because someone does not automatically get Israeli citizenship, that doesn't mean a converted Jew can't do so as well, with other bases for application such as a commitment to living in Israel, marriage to an Israeli, etc. It's just not based on ethnicity and thus automatic the same way.

[foreverlax]

We agree.

[runrussellrun]

No, you are simply wrong. No where in the koran book of fiction can you find the fictional character called "mr big head". Even the book of morons has jesus in it, yet they are not considered christians. are they? Nope, NOI is NOT part of the muslim faith. Elijahs son moved them into the sunni way (why mo Ali and Malcom went down that path )...but nope, Louis F isn't a sunni.

Can YOU find mr. big head in the Koran? Just because the NOI claims to believe in the Koran and accept Allah, and the bible....and Elijah Mo. was infected with this pretend "god"........doesn't mean another more than believing tRumps lies.

12. WE BELIEVE that Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July, 1930; the long-awaited “Messiah” of the Christians and the “Mahdi” of the Muslims.

https://www.noi.org/muslim-program/

[MDlaxfan76]

No, you are simply wrong. No where in the koran book of fiction can you find the fictional character called "mr big head". Even the book of morons has jesus in it, yet they are not considered christians. are they? Nope, NOI is NOT part of the muslim faith. Elijahs son moved them into the sunni way (why mo Ali and Malcom went down that path )...but nope, Louis F isn't a sunni.

Can YOU find mr. big head in the Koran? Just because the NOI claims to believe in the Koran and accept Allah, and the bible....and Elijah Mo. was infected with this pretend "god"........doesn't mean another more than believing tRumps lies.

12. WE BELIEVE that Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July, 1930; the long-awaited “Messiah” of the Christians and the “Mahdi” of the Muslims.

https://www.noi.org/muslim-program/

Apparently you didn't actually read what I wrote. Try again, it may help.

Yes, Mormons are Christians. Some Christians disagree, but then they also reject that other mainstream denominations other than their own are inadequately "Christian". Won't go to heaven...

As I said, the comparison isn't really fair to the LDS of today, as they don't exhibit any of the 'hate group' characteristics that NOI has as fundamental aspects of their ideology. But they do have a quite separate set of theological beliefs and text, none of which other Christians would accept. So, too, does NOI relative to what other Muslims would accept.

I think it's quite fair to say that NOI is more of cult than a successful, mainstream denomination at this point in time, and may ultimately go the way of most cults, but they are indeed part of a broad spectrum of Muslims.

[runrussellrun]

Why this isn't front page news.....I'll never know

http://jewishjournal.com/news/nation/24 ... -policies/

The klan and NOI ever have a party together? It's all right there......the forest. Like the one Harvard U owns int New Zealand and Brazil, cut down....but feels SOOOO good about banning plastic dihydrogin monoxide bottles at the Yard. icon_puke

[MDlaxfan76]

Why this isn't front page news.....I'll never know

http://jewishjournal.com/news/nation/24 ... -policies/

The klan and NOI ever have a party together? It's all right there......the forest. Like the one Harvard U owns int New Zealand and Brazil, cut down....but feels SOOOO good about banning plastic dihydrogin monoxide bottles at the Yard. icon_puke

How many times do we need to agree that Farrakhan is antisemitic? And quite the jerk, and kook too. He's made that very clear over the years.

Very, very few folks give him and his rhetoric any sort of pass. And they shouldn't.

His comment is getting lots of coverage but isn't front page news for the same reason every hateful thing David Duke and other such types say also doesn't get front page coverage, even when he confirms their view that Trump saying he's an Nationalist is saying he's a White Nationalist, agrees with white supremacy. Gets coverage, but not front page news.

But believe me Farrakhan's comment is getting lots of attention amongst those who pay attention to hate speech.

Note that Steve King, who does hold governmental authority, has been called out by the key person in the GOP responsible for the election of Reps for his hateful rhetoric, his acceptance of support from and for white supremacist groups, here and abroad. Significant news. But not front page news.

Back to Farrakhan, I found the comments below the article interesting.

Primary takeaway would be that he should be called out for the antisemitism, and his support rejected by politicians, but otherwise marginalized.

He holds no governmental power, and should be consistently shunned, rejected.

Is NOI itself dangerous? I'm not so sure of that.
But, I'd sure as heck pay attention to that risk the same way I'd pay serious attention to the white nationalist, Neo-Nazi sorts of groups.
However, at present, the number of white nationalist group participation, and the edging toward terrorist acts, dwarf NOI.

Apparently the big concern with the white nationalists is that they have stockpiled large caches of powerful weapons, train for combat, and have enclaves that are very difficult to penetrate without an armed conflict.

NOI, at least for the past couple of decades, has not behaved the same way. But they nevertheless deserve attention, IMO.

Unfortunately, the US doesn't have a standing task force to pay attention to these potential domestic terrorist groups and individuals; we've defunded and de-prioritized these efforts. IMO, big mistake. And guess what, the Trump Administration is openly going the wrong direction on this necessary attention.

[dislaxxic]

REJECTING ISRAEL LOBBY’S INFLUENCE OVER CONGRESS, RASHIDA TLAIB PLANS TO LEAD DELEGATION TO PALESTINE

"Rashida Tlaib, a Democratic representative-elect from Michigan, belongs to a cohort of incoming members of Congress who’ve vowed to upend the status quo — even on third-rail issues in Washington like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. To that end, Tlaib is planning to lead a congressional delegation to the Israeli-occupied West Bank, she told The Intercept. Her planned trip is a swift rebuke of a decades-old tradition for newly elected members: a junket to Israel sponsored by the education arm of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, known as AIPAC, the powerful pro-Israel lobby group.

The AIPAC trips are among the lesser-known traditions for freshman members of Congress. They’re typically scheduled during the first August recess in every legislative session and feature a weeklong tour of Israel and meetings with leading Israeli figures in business, government, and the military. Both critics and proponents of the AIPAC freshmen trip say the endeavor is incredibly influential, providing House members with a distinctly pro-Israel viewpoint on complex controversies in the region. In recent years, the Democratic tour has been led by incoming Majority Leader Rep. Steny Hoyer, D-Md. Incoming Minority Leader Rep. Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., traditionally leads the Republican trip."

..

[seriously?]

Excellent article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/opin ... itism.html

[foreverlax]

Excellent article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/opin ... itism.html

Indeed - lot's of distinctions between the idea of Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitic....same for the support for Zionism and Jews. It's not the same and they can be mutually exclusive.

Netanyahu, then, seems to understand that being pro-Israel and pro-Jewish are not the same thing. Liberal American Jews, particularly younger ones, are learning that lesson as well. Some staunch Zionists are bad for the Jews — witness Steve King, the Republican congressman from Iowa who invokes his support for Israel when he’s called out for his blatant white nationalism.

[Brooklyn]

seriously?

Excellent article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/opin ... itism.html

foreverlax


Indeed - lot's of distinctions between the idea of Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitic....same for the support for Zionism and Jews. It's not the same and they can be mutually exclusive.

Significantly, Orthodox Jews condemn Zionism on the grounds that the Bible clearly states only the Messiah can reestablish the Kingdom. He will do so without shedding blood, unlike the Zionist state which is marked by perpetual war. No one that I know of is going to accuse them of antisemitism.

[youthathletics]

UN vote on condemning Hamas in Gaza. https://twitter.com/ostrov_a/status/107 ... 49666?s=21

[Brooklyn]

UN vote on condemning Hamas in Gaza. https://twitter.com/ostrov_a/status/107 ... 49666?s=21

Why doesn't the UN condemn Hamas? Because of food, dental care, medicare services, schools:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/02 ... g-charity2


Hamas gives the only hope those poor people have.

[holmes435]

UN vote on condemning Hamas in Gaza. https://twitter.com/ostrov_a/status/107 ... 49666?s=21

Why doesn't the UN condemn Hamas? Because of food, dental care, medicare services, schools:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/02 ... g-charity2


Hamas gives the only hope those poor people have.

And Hamas does a lot of damage and harm as well. It seems to mirror the Israeli government.

[Brooklyn]

Hamas does a lot of damage and harm as well. It seems to mirror the Israeli government.

☮ there is always the one state solution - same thing that generally works here in the USA ☮

[seriously?]

"As long as (Netanyahu) is satisfying his political base and the opposition fails to come up with a better narrative with which to replace his, he can continue fighting his legal battles from office."

Three counts of corruption and still in office. No wonder he and Trump are best buds.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/opin ... tment.html

[Brooklyn]

Why so many people world wide ''REJECT ISRAEL LOBBY’S INFLUENCE OVER CONGRESS ..."

[dislaxxic]

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu could be indicted. Here’s what you need to know.

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin “Bibi” Netanyahu continues to find himself in deeper and deeper legal trouble — but that doesn’t mean he’ll be leaving office anytime soon.

Last month, Israeli police recommended that Netanyahu be indicted on fraud, bribery, and breach of trust charges, and accused him of granting regulatory favors to Israeli telecom giant Bezeq in exchange for flattering news coverage of himself on a website owned by the telecom company.

But at a press conference on Monday in Brazil, the prime minister said that he would not step down if he were called to a corruption hearing before Israeli elections in April. “The hearing doesn’t end until you hear my side, and it doesn’t make sense to open the hearing process before the election if you can’t finish it before the election,” he said."

..