Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[6ftstick]

So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?

There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.

soooooo... slavery overlooked here because he did some good on the battlefield? wonder what BLM thinks.

is this movement about oppression, or rebellion against the state? both???

6 out of the first 13 Presidents of the United States were slaveowners while serving as President - Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson and Taylor. Only Washington, Monroe, Taylor and Jaclson served in the military on the battlefield. In addition, Harrison, Polk, Tyler and Van Buren all owned slaves prior to becoming President but not while in office (Only Harrison served in the military on the battlefield).

I don't think we want to go very far down this road. Confederate monuments/namings are a total different case.

Ya think judging cultural norms of 250 years ago in todays woke virtue signaling will be stopped where you want it stopped?

Defund the police.

[Matnum PI]

soooooo... slavery overlooked here because he did some good on the battlefield?

Really? You think George Washington is on the $1 bill, Quarter, a State, our Capital, Washington Monument, etc. because he did some good on the battle field?...

[6ftstick]

soooooo... slavery overlooked here because he did some good on the battlefield?

Really? You think George Washington is on the $1 bill, Quarter, a State, our Capital, Washington Monument, etc. because he did some good on the battle field?...

Based on the postings here its hard to say why any founding father would be held in high regard.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?

There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.

soooooo... slavery overlooked here because he did some good on the battlefield? wonder what BLM thinks.

is this movement about oppression, or rebellion against the state? both???

6 out of the first 13 Presidents of the United States were slaveowners while serving as President - Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson and Taylor. Only Washington, Monroe, Taylor and Jaclson served in the military on the battlefield. In addition, Harrison, Polk, Tyler and Van Buren all owned slaves prior to becoming President but not while in office (Only Harrison served in the military on the battlefield).

I don't think we want to go very far down this road. Confederate monuments/namings are a total different case.

so it is about rebellion against a state; not racism, nor slavery, nor oppression.

chris columbus- whoops.

Yep. For me it is. We cannot change our history or the World's history for that matter - all those Presidents who owned slaves at those times were legally permitted to do so.

As for Columbus, no idea how he even enters the conversation - he pre-dates all this by a few hundred years. Slavery goes all the way back to Ancient Greece and Egypt and perhaps even earlier than that. It had been an accepted practice for literally 1000s of years.

thanks for discussing with me Kis- columbus because there are attempts to erase him from memory (in fact, i quite agree with the idea that he was a bad dude). just want to know where it ends.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

soooooo... slavery overlooked here because he did some good on the battlefield?

Really? You think George Washington is on the $1 bill, Quarter, a State, our Capital, Washington Monument, etc. because he did some good on the battle field?...

that was a question- not a statement

i think it's reprehensible what he did to other human beings, and wonder what BLM's position is on washington's likeness plastered all over the place.

[Matnum PI]

Based on the postings here its hard to say why any founding father would be held in high regard.

Based on the postings here, I see very rational reasons why the founding fathers are held in high regard (while also recognizing their contextual flaws).

[6ftstick]

Based on the postings here its hard to say why any founding father would be held in high regard.

Based on the postings here, I see very rational reasons why the founding fathers are held in high regard (while also recognizing their contextual flaws).

Your not reading the same forum I am

[runrussellrun]

So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?

There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.

soooooo... slavery overlooked here because he did some good on the battlefield? wonder what BLM thinks.

is this movement about oppression, or rebellion against the state? both???

FACT: Obama's family owned slaves.....so, there's that.

Racism exists. However, it's easier to change POLICIES than it IS to change PHILOSOPHIES.
Start with "tough boy" pig-coppers telling the TRUTH. Buffalo cops LIED, first instinct it always seems, said the 75 year old "tripped". ....so, there's that.

End of the day, it's VERY easy to change policies and how we police.
KENT State........and almost all of you want to point fingers....for 40 years.......40 years of different rules for the pigs, our Congress.......but you were "busy"....had a life.

[Matnum PI]

i think it's reprehensible what he did to other human beings, and wonder what BLM's position is on washington's likeness plastered all over the place.

In 2020, most everyone will agree with you. And... hindsight is 20-20. We're old, but not that old, and we can see things from our childhood that are blatantly wrong but, at the time, it was far from clear. This was centuries ago. Thankfully, as individual humans and as generational humans, we improve.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

i think it's reprehensible what he did to other human beings, and wonder what BLM's position is on washington's likeness plastered all over the place.

In 2020, most everyone will agree with you. And... hindsight is 20-20. We're old, but not that old, and we can see things from our childhood that are blatantly wrong but, at the time, it was far from clear. This was centuries ago. Thankfully, as individual humans and as generational humans, we improve.

i agree and welcome the academic discussion.

but i do want to point out- to one person, a historical figure is an oppressive, slave owning, racist

to another, it's merely a contextual flaw

which begs the question. whose contextual flaws do we overlook, and why (rhetorical, as there is no answer).

[MDlaxfan76]

Based on the postings here its hard to say why any founding father would be held in high regard.

Based on the postings here, I see very rational reasons why the founding fathers are held in high regard (while also recognizing their contextual flaws).

Your not reading the same forum I am

Apparently not.
Reading comprehension is required.

Seriously, you are way out to lunch on this...we have a couple of pretty far left posters on here, but even they aren't saying anything remotely akin to what you claim.

It is indeed important to distinguish between white supremacists erecting monuments in order to intimidate blacks and monuments to the founding fathers who made possible our having this discussion at all.

Actually worried about slippery slopes, as Chairman appears to be intellectually, make sure you take action on the obvious. Resist those and you will be swallowed by the deluge.

But distinguish where the line actually makes sense. Be clear.
But if you don't acknowledge a righteous cause, you lose all credibility as righteous.

[runrussellrun]

You mean to say, climate change is NOT the number one problem right now?

seems most can't even chew gum, let alone tap their heads, walk at the same time, all while rubbing the belly.

Primary focus on providing bathrooms and pronouns for a select group. Nice. Worthy cause.

Meanwhile, no knock murders, chock holds, tasings, killings...and of course the black death by murders in the inner cities, got put into storage. Not super important. I get it. Months of lockdown, one gets antsy. Especially the young. Lots of anger at who our leaders are ......and we are all sick of hearing how bad tRump is. He IS.

Is he the only one? The only corrupt leader? Of a corporation too? Inequity in income , suddenly, is ignored?

Yeah, how is the Congress' debt forgiveness for college loans? You think that college grad aint' pissed, because WE told them to go to college because you would earn more. Really? Where? your Local POLICE department, of course.

You get to take your anger out on people with ZERO problems.....mostly.

KENT STATE

[ggait]

This current conversation is my nominee for stupidest what-abouting waste of electrons ever.

We do not have to rename everything Washington. UVA does not have to white-out Thomas Jefferson. It is fine for their historical contributions, with faults duly noted, to be recognized. UVA and Monticello, for example, now do a great job on this (which didn't used to be the case).

Fine by me if W&L wants to keep its name -- Lee's next job after the Civil War, after all, was president of the college and it was renamed immediately after Lee's death.

Erecting a prominent monument, for example, at Lee Circle in New Orleans in 1890 is a totally different animal. Especially since Lee never even set foot in Louisiana, much less New Orleans. That one clearly is about something else.

But I'm sure this conversation will keep going and get progressively even dumber.

[Typical Lax Dad]

This current conversation is my nominee for stupidest what-abouting waste of electrons ever.

We do not have to rename everything Washington. UVA does not have to white-out Thomas Jefferson. It is fine for their historical contributions, with faults duly noted, to be recognized. UVA and Monticello, for example, now do a great job on this (which didn't used to be the case).

Fine by me if W&L wants to keep its name -- Lee's next job after the Civil War, after all, was president of the college and it was renamed immediately after Lee's death.

Erecting a prominent monument, for example, at Lee Circle in New Orleans in 1890 is a totally different animal. Especially since Lee never even set foot in Louisiana, much less New Orleans.

By I'm sure this dumb and dumber conversation will keep going.

+1

[cradleandshoot]

The NYPD cop charged with pushing/assaulting/injuring a woman protester was a Ward Mehville laxer who reportedly played at Kean College before serving in the USMC. A video showing her approaching the cop, before he shoved her away, was initially posted on social media. I saw it in the initial tv coverage. It has now magically been disapperared.
https://heavy.com/news/2020/06/vincent-dandraia/

Common thread with the Buffalo push assault. In both cases the police were advancing as a unit, clearing the street or sidewalk, when a protester approached them, entered their personal safety space, blocking them, taking video of the police officer with their cell phones.

Police officers now need to be prepared for encounters with video warrior provocateur protesters who enter their personal safety space, trying to generate an incident captured on video. In both these cases, these 2 provocateurs got the confrontation they sought, but they were not prepared for the consequences of their actions when invading a police officer's personal safety space in a confrontational manner.

Are you ok?

You are now referring to a 75 year old man who regularly volunteers his time for catholic charities as a "provocateur". Sad.

Did he present his AARP card ? What difference does it make what he does with his spare time ? He confronted the cops, got in their face & was clearly confrontational. He wasn't asking for directions to the senior center.

+1 The police trying to clear the streets had no idea who he was or what his intentions were. If you don't want to be pushed on your ass... don't get into the cops grill and talk chit to him. Sorry there old timer, you learned a lesson the hard way. I hope he is okay but his own stupid actions were the cause if his injuries.


For the record, my wife and I argued about this for way to long last night. When I asked my wife if the old guy had pulled out a gun and shot the cop in the head would that have changed her opinion. She finally got the message.

hmmm, IF...
I'm thinking your wife 'got the message' that you are a lost cause

Pro tip, you know she's right. Best to admit that to her tonight...

The guy was never remotely a threat, and the police action was not excusable.
Forgivable yes, excusable no.

At a minimum, big apology deserved.
Any policeman not thinking so needs to have their badge taken away.

Which isn't to say that this particular policeman necessarily had malice in his heart, that he intended for the guy to get hurt. I hope he didn't. But if he isn't quick to be sorry, not the right guy to have a badge and a gun.

You probably would have a very short life span MD had you chosen a career in law enforcement. The officers had no idea what the old guys intentions were. The answer is clear enough for most moderate Republicans to understand. You don't get into a police officers grill un the middle of a situation line this. It is just my opinion MD. When a FLP moderate Republican wants to disagree with me. My opinion is validated right then and there.

By the way, that guy officer Daryl Pierson was chasing that night was not much if a threat either. Up to the point he pulled that dog gone gun in his pocket he had some from his waist and shot him in the head and killed him. What the flying flip makes you an expert in how any cop determines a possible threat to his safety? This is your opinion against mine. My wife agrees with me so you lose skippy. Deal with it, I'm sure your wife agrees with you or else she will be locked in the basement with you brother in law.

[MDlaxfan76]

The NYPD cop charged with pushing/assaulting/injuring a woman protester was a Ward Mehville laxer who reportedly played at Kean College before serving in the USMC. A video showing her approaching the cop, before he shoved her away, was initially posted on social media. I saw it in the initial tv coverage. It has now magically been disapperared.
https://heavy.com/news/2020/06/vincent-dandraia/

Common thread with the Buffalo push assault. In both cases the police were advancing as a unit, clearing the street or sidewalk, when a protester approached them, entered their personal safety space, blocking them, taking video of the police officer with their cell phones.

Police officers now need to be prepared for encounters with video warrior provocateur protesters who enter their personal safety space, trying to generate an incident captured on video. In both these cases, these 2 provocateurs got the confrontation they sought, but they were not prepared for the consequences of their actions when invading a police officer's personal safety space in a confrontational manner.

Are you ok?

You are now referring to a 75 year old man who regularly volunteers his time for catholic charities as a "provocateur". Sad.

Did he present his AARP card ? What difference does it make what he does with his spare time ? He confronted the cops, got in their face & was clearly confrontational. He wasn't asking for directions to the senior center.

+1 The police trying to clear the streets had no idea who he was or what his intentions were. If you don't want to be pushed on your ass... don't get into the cops grill and talk chit to him. Sorry there old timer, you learned a lesson the hard way. I hope he is okay but his own stupid actions were the cause if his injuries.


For the record, my wife and I argued about this for way to long last night. When I asked my wife if the old guy had pulled out a gun and shot the cop in the head would that have changed her opinion. She finally got the message.

hmmm, IF...
I'm thinking your wife 'got the message' that you are a lost cause

Pro tip, you know she's right. Best to admit that to her tonight...

The guy was never remotely a threat, and the police action was not excusable.
Forgivable yes, excusable no.

At a minimum, big apology deserved.
Any policeman not thinking so needs to have their badge taken away.

Which isn't to say that this particular policeman necessarily had malice in his heart, that he intended for the guy to get hurt. I hope he didn't. But if he isn't quick to be sorry, not the right guy to have a badge and a gun.

You probably would have a very short life span MD had you chosen a career in law enforcement. The officers had no idea what the old guys intentions were. The answer is clear enough for most moderate Republicans to understand. You don't get into a police officers grill un the middle of a situation line this. It is just my opinion MD. When a FLP moderate Republican wants to disagree with me. My opinion is validated right then and there.

Ahh, but my life span as a husband is doing just fine.

Seriously, he doesn't look up in anyone's grill to me, certainly not in any threatening way. There's literally dozens of others policemen, all together and an old guy, a protestor, confronts them...you're at a protest of police violence, for goodness sake...you expect some verbal confrontation. But verbal is not a physical threat.

Again, I'd be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the policeman that he didn't mean for his shove to have the impact it did, but he sure didn't look sorry in the moment...is he now?

If not, he should be done wearing a badge.

[MDlaxfan76]

This current conversation is my nominee for stupidest what-abouting waste of electrons ever.

We do not have to rename everything Washington. UVA does not have to white-out Thomas Jefferson. It is fine for their historical contributions, with faults duly noted, to be recognized. UVA and Monticello, for example, now do a great job on this (which didn't used to be the case).

Fine by me if W&L wants to keep its name -- Lee's next job after the Civil War, after all, was president of the college and it was renamed immediately after Lee's death.

Erecting a prominent monument, for example, at Lee Circle in New Orleans in 1890 is a totally different animal. Especially since Lee never even set foot in Louisiana, much less New Orleans.

By I'm sure this dumb and dumber conversation will keep going.

+1

+2

[cradleandshoot]

The NYPD cop charged with pushing/assaulting/injuring a woman protester was a Ward Mehville laxer who reportedly played at Kean College before serving in the USMC. A video showing her approaching the cop, before he shoved her away, was initially posted on social media. I saw it in the initial tv coverage. It has now magically been disapperared.
https://heavy.com/news/2020/06/vincent-dandraia/

Common thread with the Buffalo push assault. In both cases the police were advancing as a unit, clearing the street or sidewalk, when a protester approached them, entered their personal safety space, blocking them, taking video of the police officer with their cell phones.

Police officers now need to be prepared for encounters with video warrior provocateur protesters who enter their personal safety space, trying to generate an incident captured on video. In both these cases, these 2 provocateurs got the confrontation they sought, but they were not prepared for the consequences of their actions when invading a police officer's personal safety space in a confrontational manner.

Are you ok?

You are now referring to a 75 year old man who regularly volunteers his time for catholic charities as a "provocateur". Sad.

Did he present his AARP card ? What difference does it make what he does with his spare time ? He confronted the cops, got in their face & was clearly confrontational. He wasn't asking for directions to the senior center.

+1 The police trying to clear the streets had no idea who he was or what his intentions were. If you don't want to be pushed on your ass... don't get into the cops grill and talk chit to him. Sorry there old timer, you learned a lesson the hard way. I hope he is okay but his own stupid actions were the cause if his injuries.


For the record, my wife and I argued about this for way to long last night. When I asked my wife if the old guy had pulled out a gun and shot the cop in the head would that have changed her opinion. She finally got the message.

hmmm, IF...
I'm thinking your wife 'got the message' that you are a lost cause

Pro tip, you know she's right. Best to admit that to her tonight...

The guy was never remotely a threat, and the police action was not excusable.
Forgivable yes, excusable no.

At a minimum, big apology deserved.
Any policeman not thinking so needs to have their badge taken away.

Which isn't to say that this particular policeman necessarily had malice in his heart, that he intended for the guy to get hurt. I hope he didn't. But if he isn't quick to be sorry, not the right guy to have a badge and a gun.

You probably would have a very short life span MD had you chosen a career in law enforcement. The officers had no idea what the old guys intentions were. The answer is clear enough for most moderate Republicans to understand. You don't get into a police officers grill un the middle of a situation line this. It is just my opinion MD. When a FLP moderate Republican wants to disagree with me. My opinion is validated right then and there.

Ahh, but my life span as a husband is doing just fine.

Seriously, he doesn't look up in anyone's grill to me, certainly not in any threatening way. There's literally dozens of others policemen, all together and an old guy, a protestor, confronts them...you're at a protest of police violence, for goodness sake...you expect some verbal confrontation. But verbal is not a physical threat.

Again, I'd be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the policeman that he didn't mean for his shove to have the impact it did, but he sure didn't look sorry in the moment...is he now?

If not, he should be done wearing a badge.

I have watched this shove about a hundred time now. No cop expects any protester to get in his grill. The shove was his response to get the guy out of his way. Dumb move on the old guys part. Rule of thumb... when the police line is moving towards you, head in the opposite direction. That is not the time or place to have a chit chat with the riot cops. That officer had no idea what the old booger was trying to prove. The old guy made a very poor decision.

[SCLaxAttack]

The NYPD cop charged with pushing/assaulting/injuring a woman protester was a Ward Mehville laxer who reportedly played at Kean College before serving in the USMC. A video showing her approaching the cop, before he shoved her away, was initially posted on social media. I saw it in the initial tv coverage. It has now magically been disapperared.
https://heavy.com/news/2020/06/vincent-dandraia/

Common thread with the Buffalo push assault. In both cases the police were advancing as a unit, clearing the street or sidewalk, when a protester approached them, entered their personal safety space, blocking them, taking video of the police officer with their cell phones.

Police officers now need to be prepared for encounters with video warrior provocateur protesters who enter their personal safety space, trying to generate an incident captured on video. In both these cases, these 2 provocateurs got the confrontation they sought, but they were not prepared for the consequences of their actions when invading a police officer's personal safety space in a confrontational manner.

Are you ok?

You are now referring to a 75 year old man who regularly volunteers his time for catholic charities as a "provocateur". Sad.

Did he present his AARP card ? What difference does it make what he does with his spare time ? He confronted the cops, got in their face & was clearly confrontational. He wasn't asking for directions to the senior center.

+1 The police trying to clear the streets had no idea who he was or what his intentions were. If you don't want to be pushed on your ass... don't get into the cops grill and talk chit to him. Sorry there old timer, you learned a lesson the hard way. I hope he is okay but his own stupid actions were the cause if his injuries.


For the record, my wife and I argued about this for way to long last night. When I asked my wife if the old guy had pulled out a gun and shot the cop in the head would that have changed her opinion. She finally got the message.

hmmm, IF...
I'm thinking your wife 'got the message' that you are a lost cause

Pro tip, you know she's right. Best to admit that to her tonight...

The guy was never remotely a threat, and the police action was not excusable.
Forgivable yes, excusable no.

At a minimum, big apology deserved.
Any policeman not thinking so needs to have their badge taken away.

Which isn't to say that this particular policeman necessarily had malice in his heart, that he intended for the guy to get hurt. I hope he didn't. But if he isn't quick to be sorry, not the right guy to have a badge and a gun.

You probably would have a very short life span MD had you chosen a career in law enforcement. The officers had no idea what the old guys intentions were. The answer is clear enough for most moderate Republicans to understand. You don't get into a police officers grill un the middle of a situation line this. It is just my opinion MD. When a FLP moderate Republican wants to disagree with me. My opinion is validated right then and there.

By the way, that guy officer Daryl Pierson was chasing that night was not much if a threat either. Up to the point he pulled that dog gone gun in his pocket he had some from his waist and shot him in the head and killed him. What the flying flip makes you an expert in how any cop determines a possible threat to his safety? This is your opinion against mine. My wife agrees with me so you lose skippy. Deal with it, I'm sure your wife agrees with you or else she will be locked in the basement with you brother in law.

Sorry C&S, but I'm not buying it. It's just my opinion, but that guy casually walked up to those officers with both hands clearly visible. He was no threat. If you watch closely, it appears the two officers doing the pushing may have even left the guy alone had it not been for the third officer coming up who might have given the first two direction. One of the first two even appears to be going to help the fallen man but was pushed forward by the third. If they wanted to detain or arrest him all they needed to do was take his arms and put them behind his back.

Interesting how, seconds later police in the same line were approached by another protester, only one who seemed to be in better physical shape and approaching them much quicker, and they did just that. Here's a more complete video you may not have seen: https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/v ... tion=click

(Incidentally, it was my son, a Maricopa County Sheriff deputy, who sent me that link.)

[ggait]

That officer had no idea what the old booger was trying to prove. The old guy made a very poor decision.

Apparently the iPhone scan/jam app only works if you get up close to the cops.

I'm sure Tim Apple will make sure that the 2.0 version works from a greater distance away.

Does anyone know if I can use that app to jam Peter Brown on these boards? I'd def pay $9.99 for that!