Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[MDlaxfan76]

Germany has systematically destroyed its Nazi monuments.

It is now time for the United States to destroy all Confederate monuments. We can begin by destroying the Ku Klux Klan monument to Davis, Lee, and Jackson on Stone Mountain in Georgia. It should be replaced by a monument to African Americans who suffered in slavery.

Most of the large monuments began to appear in the early 20th Century, long after the war ended in 1865. The goal was not to preserve "Southern heritage," as the monuments' defenders now claim. Instead, the goal was to install white-supremacist icons that would intimidate African Americans and enforce whites' supremacy. Historian W. Fitzhugh Brundage, for example, has written that the monuments "were sometimes explicitly linked to the cause of white supremacy by the notables who spoke at their dedication" and that white industrialist Julian Carr "unambiguously urged his audience to devote themselves to the maintenance of white supremacy with the same vigor that their Confederate ancestors had defended slavery.

The history of the giant carvings on Stone Mountain, near Atlanta, is instructive. Planning of the carvings began only in 1914. Substantial funding for the project came from the KKK, which met on the mountain's top to burn crosses and the project's first directors and promoters were Klan members. The original plan was to depict General Robert E. Lee leading Confederate soldiers and Klan members up the mountain. Many other Confederate monuments were erected during this period, helping consolidate Jim Crow's racist hierarchy.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/opinions ... index.html

DocBarrister

well since we are going after anything associated with Lee, let's just get rid of W&L as well. or are you telling me there is no ode to the general anywhere on campus?

Any chance we can also get rid of Sheila Jackson Lee? She has two oppressive old white men in her name.

You just know DocB is down with speech suppression, book burning, and totalitarianism. No doubt he is good with Gone with the Wind being removed from HBO's streaming service.

What absolute fascist clowns, the whole Democratic Party.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hbo-max-pu ... 4?mod=e2tw

Are you gentlemen really defending a monument at Stone Mountain put up by the Ku Klux Klan?

Because if you are, state so clearly here. Let’s start with the easy stuff and then go on down the line.

The Germans made difficult decisions and choices. I’m sure the United States can as well.

I wanted Gone with the Wind on HBO Max, but I understand those who wouldn’t.

As for Washington & Lee ... let’s begin by removing the name of the guy who betrayed the United States and killed fellow Americans during the Civil War (Lee) and restore it to its former 19th century name (Washington College) and go from there. We can discuss Washington himself later.

Sit down ... this could take a while.

Anyway ... are any of you actually supporting the KKK monument on Stone Mountain?

Good ... it goes.

DocBarrister

I personally don't give a flying fig about the monument at Stone Mountain. If the folks in Georgia want to take it down... more power to them. Go for it. While they are at it they can address the inequities of those racist SOBs named Washington, Adam's and Jefferson. Those mother effing slave owning baztards need to get their comeuppance as well. That mother effing Washington monument has got to go...power to the sheeple. Let's just eradicate and erase the entire history of our nation. We can start over today from scratch and pretend none of our history prior to today ever even happened.

Really, no difference between a KKK monument, with 3 generals of the Confederacy, in Georgia, which explicitly seceded from the US due to slavery...and our Founders, imperfect as they may have been?

KKK, cradle.
white supremacy...

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... al-dilemma

[Brooklyn]

Defund the police and BLM is a huge step toward authoritarian social control veiled in the language of identity politics.

Now it doesn’t matter if you have lived a good life, been a good person. If you’re not marching or blacking our your Instagram account you’re the enemy!

Strange how we didn't see any claim like that during the times people demanded the dissolution of the IRS or in the Tea Bagger hay day.

When you think about it (thinking being a difficult task for many on the right wing), defunding the police by ending qualified immunity and by imposing a requirement to have personal liability insurance would save society millions of dollars. This way cities will no longer have to pay for the crimes and damages imposed by cops. Police unions will be bankrupted and their lobbying power will go to hell where it belongs. Instead of police hired by municipalities, cities can now elect sheriffs who are known by name and are fully accountable to the public who elects them. Here in Ramsey County we know and respect sheriff Fletcher - a man who readily gives away his email address and has a hands on policy such as coordinating food drives. The guy is far from perfect (nobody is). But at least we know him and is very popular.

[MDlaxfan76]

who cares about military service.

he was an owner. isnt that enough?

Merely pointing out that the school did not name him President on the school primarily because of his military service to the Confederacy.

As for the larger question, in addition to his previously earned reputation and accomplishments Lee essentially lost just about everything in terms of tangible property as a result of his decision. He also knew that his life may also have been at risk (after all the only crime individually specified in the Constitution is treason.

Article III
Section 3

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.")

again who cares who named what and for what reason, and what they sacrificed. the "tangible property" he owned included human beings.

it's there, and it's a symbol of supremacy. why the hesitation???

that's a different way of asking- where does this end. the paint is drying!

Of course, Lee's will, prior to the Civil War, included the freeing of his slaves upon his death.

I don't think he should be honored in any way for his military service on behalf of the Confederacy, though his tactics and leadership should be studied in war colleges, etc. His descendants agree with that view.

However, his service post war to that institution can be rightfully honored by that institution.
How best to do so is an interesting question, but this isn't some Jim Crow memorial on public land...

[Kismet]

who cares about military service.

he was an owner. isnt that enough?

Merely pointing out that the school did not name him President on the school primarily because of his military service to the Confederacy.

As for the larger question, in addition to his previously earned reputation and accomplishments Lee essentially lost just about everything in terms of tangible property as a result of his decision. He also knew that his life may also have been at risk (after all the only crime individually specified in the Constitution is treason.

Article III
Section 3

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.")

again who cares who named what and for what reason, and what they sacrificed. the "tangible property" he owned included human beings.

it's there, and it's a symbol of supremacy. why the hesitation???

that's a different way of asking- where does this end. the paint is drying!

I guess it matters to me what the original context of the nomenclature was. It's pretty straightforward why they did it at the time and its readily explainable..to me, at least. Had nothing to do with the Confederacy.

[Brooklyn]

Doc



Most of the large monuments began to appear in the early 20th Century, long after the war ended in 1865. The goal was not to preserve "Southern heritage," as the monuments' defenders now claim. Instead, the goal was to install white-supremacist icons that would intimidate African Americans and enforce whites' supremacy ...

The history of the giant carvings on Stone Mountain, near Atlanta, is instructive. Planning of the carvings began only in 1914. Substantial funding for the project came from the KKK, which met on the mountain's top to burn crosses and the project's first directors and promoters were Klan members. The original plan was to depict General Robert E. Lee leading Confederate soldiers and Klan members up the mountain. Many other Confederate monuments were erected during this period, helping consolidate Jim Crow's racist hierarchy.

Good note. Obviously, contary to what so many on the far right wish to believe, all those statues and honors are intended to pay homage to white supremacy, racial intolerance, hate, treason, and dissension. The traitors portrayed in those statues killed hundreds of thousands of Americans which is far more than those killed by Hitler. Imagine if some right wing delusional built up statues for him and his kind. All true Americans would object. That's what patriots do. Doubtful that some on the far right would share our outrage, however.

[Catbird]

The NYPD cop charged with pushing/assaulting/injuring a woman protester was a Ward Mehville laxer who reportedly played at Kean College before serving in the USMC. A video showing her approaching the cop, before he shoved her away, was initially posted on social media. I saw it in the initial tv coverage. It has now magically been disapperared.
https://heavy.com/news/2020/06/vincent-dandraia/

Common thread with the Buffalo push assault. In both cases the police were advancing as a unit, clearing the street or sidewalk, when a protester approached them, entered their personal safety space, blocking them, taking video of the police officer with their cell phones.

Police officers now need to be prepared for encounters with video warrior provocateur protesters who enter their personal safety space, trying to generate an incident captured on video. In both these cases, these 2 provocateurs got the confrontation they sought, but they were not prepared for the consequences of their actions when invading a police officer's personal safety space in a confrontational manner.

Are you ok?

You are now referring to a 75 year old man who regularly volunteers his time for catholic charities as a "provocateur". Sad.

How were the police suppose to know dicky doo about his back ground or who the man was? They were suppose to assume he was just a sweet old guy coming up to them to say hello.

Not about what the cops knew; its about what is known now but old salt continues along slandering and villifying an innocent old man.

[Peter Brown]

Germany has systematically destroyed its Nazi monuments.

It is now time for the United States to destroy all Confederate monuments. We can begin by destroying the Ku Klux Klan monument to Davis, Lee, and Jackson on Stone Mountain in Georgia. It should be replaced by a monument to African Americans who suffered in slavery.

Most of the large monuments began to appear in the early 20th Century, long after the war ended in 1865. The goal was not to preserve "Southern heritage," as the monuments' defenders now claim. Instead, the goal was to install white-supremacist icons that would intimidate African Americans and enforce whites' supremacy. Historian W. Fitzhugh Brundage, for example, has written that the monuments "were sometimes explicitly linked to the cause of white supremacy by the notables who spoke at their dedication" and that white industrialist Julian Carr "unambiguously urged his audience to devote themselves to the maintenance of white supremacy with the same vigor that their Confederate ancestors had defended slavery.

The history of the giant carvings on Stone Mountain, near Atlanta, is instructive. Planning of the carvings began only in 1914. Substantial funding for the project came from the KKK, which met on the mountain's top to burn crosses and the project's first directors and promoters were Klan members. The original plan was to depict General Robert E. Lee leading Confederate soldiers and Klan members up the mountain. Many other Confederate monuments were erected during this period, helping consolidate Jim Crow's racist hierarchy.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/opinions ... index.html

DocBarrister

well since we are going after anything associated with Lee, let's just get rid of W&L as well. or are you telling me there is no ode to the general anywhere on campus?

Any chance we can also get rid of Sheila Jackson Lee? She has two oppressive old white men in her name.

You just know DocB is down with speech suppression, book burning, and totalitarianism. No doubt he is good with Gone with the Wind being removed from HBO's streaming service.

What absolute fascist clowns, the whole Democratic Party.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hbo-max-pu ... 4?mod=e2tw

Are you gentlemen really defending a monument at Stone Mountain put up by the Ku Klux Klan?

Because if you are, state so clearly here. Let’s start with the easy stuff and then go on down the line.

The Germans made difficult decisions and choices. I’m sure the United States can as well.

I wanted Gone with the Wind on HBO Max, but I understand those who wouldn’t.

As for Washington & Lee ... let’s begin by removing the name of the guy who betrayed the United States and killed fellow Americans during the Civil War (Lee) and restore it to its former 19th century name (Washington College) and go from there. We can discuss Washington himself later.

Sit down ... this could take a while.

Anyway ... are any of you actually supporting the KKK monument on Stone Mountain?

Good ... it goes.

DocBarrister

I want all monuments and bridges dedicated to FDR torn down, renamed, or blown up because FDR interred Japanese-Americans during WW2.

Also, The Cabots, Lowells, and Lodges supported No Irish Need Apply in the 1900's; remove their legacy please.

Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) needs to give up his seat and trust fund; he's a direct descendant of (and got all his unearned money from) Charles Crocker, a famous "chinaman" bigot.

Ford Motor needs to be renamed; famous anti-Semite.

I'm just getting started. Help me with more, please. We have a cultural revolution that must be pure, per Democratic Party dictum: Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right

[cradleandshoot]

Germany has systematically destroyed its Nazi monuments.

It is now time for the United States to destroy all Confederate monuments. We can begin by destroying the Ku Klux Klan monument to Davis, Lee, and Jackson on Stone Mountain in Georgia. It should be replaced by a monument to African Americans who suffered in slavery.

Most of the large monuments began to appear in the early 20th Century, long after the war ended in 1865. The goal was not to preserve "Southern heritage," as the monuments' defenders now claim. Instead, the goal was to install white-supremacist icons that would intimidate African Americans and enforce whites' supremacy. Historian W. Fitzhugh Brundage, for example, has written that the monuments "were sometimes explicitly linked to the cause of white supremacy by the notables who spoke at their dedication" and that white industrialist Julian Carr "unambiguously urged his audience to devote themselves to the maintenance of white supremacy with the same vigor that their Confederate ancestors had defended slavery.

The history of the giant carvings on Stone Mountain, near Atlanta, is instructive. Planning of the carvings began only in 1914. Substantial funding for the project came from the KKK, which met on the mountain's top to burn crosses and the project's first directors and promoters were Klan members. The original plan was to depict General Robert E. Lee leading Confederate soldiers and Klan members up the mountain. Many other Confederate monuments were erected during this period, helping consolidate Jim Crow's racist hierarchy.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/opinions ... index.html

DocBarrister

well since we are going after anything associated with Lee, let's just get rid of W&L as well. or are you telling me there is no ode to the general anywhere on campus?

Any chance we can also get rid of Sheila Jackson Lee? She has two oppressive old white men in her name.

You just know DocB is down with speech suppression, book burning, and totalitarianism. No doubt he is good with Gone with the Wind being removed from HBO's streaming service.

What absolute fascist clowns, the whole Democratic Party.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hbo-max-pu ... 4?mod=e2tw

Are you gentlemen really defending a monument at Stone Mountain put up by the Ku Klux Klan?

Because if you are, state so clearly here. Let’s start with the easy stuff and then go on down the line.

The Germans made difficult decisions and choices. I’m sure the United States can as well.

I wanted Gone with the Wind on HBO Max, but I understand those who wouldn’t.

As for Washington & Lee ... let’s begin by removing the name of the guy who betrayed the United States and killed fellow Americans during the Civil War (Lee) and restore it to its former 19th century name (Washington College) and go from there. We can discuss Washington himself later.

Sit down ... this could take a while.

Anyway ... are any of you actually supporting the KKK monument on Stone Mountain?

Good ... it goes.

DocBarrister

no. in fact, i agree with you. (easy)

im asking where does this end. we have a way of painting ourselves into a corner. just checking ahead of time before it dries. (hard)

The school name was changed to recognize Robert E. Lee's contributions/reforms as the school president from 1865-70 during which he restored the school to fiscal health and instituted its Honor Code among many other contributions and reforms having nothing to do with his military service in the Civil War. George Washington (the other person in the name) was also a slave owner. IMHO Robert E. Lee made a significant contribution to his country prior to making a bad decision regarding his allegiance to that same country during the Civil War. HAs a result of that decision, he lost his family property and whatever fortune he amassed and he also knew he risked being executed as a traitor. There's a reasonable explanation why Lee, Davis and all those Confederates weren't tried as traitors and hung from the nearest scaffold - check out Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses Grant for the details.

That said, was surprised to learn upwards of 10 U.S. military bases are currently named after Confederate Generals - I agree that those names should be reconsidered - Heck, Fort Bragg is named after Braxton Bragg who was, arguably, one of the worst tactical commanders in the rebel army.

I agree. Focusing on W&L's name is a poor priority. Others are far more important, beginning with military bases.

Washington's gift of stock endowed the school, Lee served well as President post war, and his name was added shortly after his death in 1870. This was not part of Jim Crow. Lee is a complicated character, a man of considerable integrity, though tragically blinded to the implications of his actions. His descendants are quite vocal about their support for removal of statues erected to him that are really expressions of white supremacy.

Of course, the name of the university remains (and should be) a sensitive issue, quite worthy of exploration by its students. There have been a number of buildings renamed, portraits of the two men were changed to those with civilian rather than military attire, and graduates can elect to receive diplomas without their portraits, or with them. Students actively discuss this legacy with open eyes. Washing it all away as if not formative to the school would reduce such discussion and exploration.

Now, I say all that, yet would note that I have not spoken with black alums who may have a quite different perspective (my only connection is niece and many friends). I'd want to listen to their perspectives. And could be persuaded.

Re monuments in general, I think they should not be "destroyed" rather they should, whenever possible, be removed to museum settings and addressed as the artifacts of Jim Crow that they really are. We need to remember how ugly this period was... There may be some which cannot be placed in such settings, and to the extent that they remain potential symbols of white supremacy, I'm ok with their destruction.

The flaw in your point of view MD is you are trying to associate the thinking of 1860s America to be somehow relevant to 2020 America. I understand the loyalty many Johnny Rebs had to their cause. What many people here expect is for a very large bunch of southern people who grew up hearing the stories of great, great grandpa did during the civil war. I am a New York Yankee. I spent quite a few weekends at my friends home in Marion North Carolina. I met a quite a few of of these Johnny rebs . My car, a 1975 Chevy Impala still had my New York State plates on it. You wanna guess how many times I was told to go back to New Yahhk? I understand the family loyalty to their relatives. These folks in Marion at that time all seemed to have a relative that fought for the rebel cause. What most people are asking today is for these folks to repudiate their entire family history a kn d admit great, great grandaddy was just a racist slave loving SOB. The funny part was most if these Johnny rebs I met were as dirt poor as the slaves that worked on the plantations. They all had one thing in common. They grew up picking cotton and tobacco and most of them could not afford shoes. I disagree 100% with the loyalty to the Confederate cause. This is just my opinion, it had less to do with slavery than it did for their contempt and mistrust for the federal government.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

kismet- agreed. there is no clear answer here.

which makes the movement such a slippery slope. right now it's downright whimsical.

i also highly doubt a college-aged protester cares about whether the monument to an old privileged white moneyed male slaveowner is on public or private property. they've shown recently that any property can be subject to damage for no particular reason other than convenience.

but since we're having the discussion. let's collapse half of rushmore.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

I want all monuments and bridges dedicated to FDR torn down, renamed, or blown up because FDR interred Japanese-Americans during WW2.

and there it is. a slippery, directionless, whimsical slope.

[Kismet]

agreed. there is no clear answer here.

which makes the movement such a slippery slope. right now it's downright whimsical.

i also highly doubt a college-aged protester cares about whether the monument to an old privileged white moneyed male slaveowner is on public or private property. they've shown recently that any property can be subject to damage for no particular reason other than convenience.

but since we're having the discussion. let's collapse half of rushmore.

Point well taken, Blue Eyes........nice reference...whimsical. Very appropriate to the discussion.

[MDlaxfan76]

Germany has systematically destroyed its Nazi monuments.

It is now time for the United States to destroy all Confederate monuments. We can begin by destroying the Ku Klux Klan monument to Davis, Lee, and Jackson on Stone Mountain in Georgia. It should be replaced by a monument to African Americans who suffered in slavery.

Most of the large monuments began to appear in the early 20th Century, long after the war ended in 1865. The goal was not to preserve "Southern heritage," as the monuments' defenders now claim. Instead, the goal was to install white-supremacist icons that would intimidate African Americans and enforce whites' supremacy. Historian W. Fitzhugh Brundage, for example, has written that the monuments "were sometimes explicitly linked to the cause of white supremacy by the notables who spoke at their dedication" and that white industrialist Julian Carr "unambiguously urged his audience to devote themselves to the maintenance of white supremacy with the same vigor that their Confederate ancestors had defended slavery.

The history of the giant carvings on Stone Mountain, near Atlanta, is instructive. Planning of the carvings began only in 1914. Substantial funding for the project came from the KKK, which met on the mountain's top to burn crosses and the project's first directors and promoters were Klan members. The original plan was to depict General Robert E. Lee leading Confederate soldiers and Klan members up the mountain. Many other Confederate monuments were erected during this period, helping consolidate Jim Crow's racist hierarchy.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/opinions ... index.html

DocBarrister

well since we are going after anything associated with Lee, let's just get rid of W&L as well. or are you telling me there is no ode to the general anywhere on campus?

Any chance we can also get rid of Sheila Jackson Lee? She has two oppressive old white men in her name.

You just know DocB is down with speech suppression, book burning, and totalitarianism. No doubt he is good with Gone with the Wind being removed from HBO's streaming service.

What absolute fascist clowns, the whole Democratic Party.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hbo-max-pu ... 4?mod=e2tw

Are you gentlemen really defending a monument at Stone Mountain put up by the Ku Klux Klan?

Because if you are, state so clearly here. Let’s start with the easy stuff and then go on down the line.

The Germans made difficult decisions and choices. I’m sure the United States can as well.

I wanted Gone with the Wind on HBO Max, but I understand those who wouldn’t.

As for Washington & Lee ... let’s begin by removing the name of the guy who betrayed the United States and killed fellow Americans during the Civil War (Lee) and restore it to its former 19th century name (Washington College) and go from there. We can discuss Washington himself later.

Sit down ... this could take a while.

Anyway ... are any of you actually supporting the KKK monument on Stone Mountain?

Good ... it goes.

DocBarrister

no. in fact, i agree with you. (easy)

im asking where does this end. we have a way of painting ourselves into a corner. just checking ahead of time before it dries. (hard)

The school name was changed to recognize Robert E. Lee's contributions/reforms as the school president from 1865-70 during which he restored the school to fiscal health and instituted its Honor Code among many other contributions and reforms having nothing to do with his military service in the Civil War. George Washington (the other person in the name) was also a slave owner. IMHO Robert E. Lee made a significant contribution to his country prior to making a bad decision regarding his allegiance to that same country during the Civil War. HAs a result of that decision, he lost his family property and whatever fortune he amassed and he also knew he risked being executed as a traitor. There's a reasonable explanation why Lee, Davis and all those Confederates weren't tried as traitors and hung from the nearest scaffold - check out Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses Grant for the details.

That said, was surprised to learn upwards of 10 U.S. military bases are currently named after Confederate Generals - I agree that those names should be reconsidered - Heck, Fort Bragg is named after Braxton Bragg who was, arguably, one of the worst tactical commanders in the rebel army.

I agree. Focusing on W&L's name is a poor priority. Others are far more important, beginning with military bases.

Washington's gift of stock endowed the school, Lee served well as President post war, and his name was added shortly after his death in 1870. This was not part of Jim Crow. Lee is a complicated character, a man of considerable integrity, though tragically blinded to the implications of his actions. His descendants are quite vocal about their support for removal of statues erected to him that are really expressions of white supremacy.

Of course, the name of the university remains (and should be) a sensitive issue, quite worthy of exploration by its students. There have been a number of buildings renamed, portraits of the two men were changed to those with civilian rather than military attire, and graduates can elect to receive diplomas without their portraits, or with them. Students actively discuss this legacy with open eyes. Washing it all away as if not formative to the school would reduce such discussion and exploration.

Now, I say all that, yet would note that I have not spoken with black alums who may have a quite different perspective (my only connection is niece and many friends). I'd want to listen to their perspectives. And could be persuaded.

Re monuments in general, I think they should not be "destroyed" rather they should, whenever possible, be removed to museum settings and addressed as the artifacts of Jim Crow that they really are. We need to remember how ugly this period was... There may be some which cannot be placed in such settings, and to the extent that they remain potential symbols of white supremacy, I'm ok with their destruction.

The flaw in your point of view MD is you are trying to associate the thinking of 1860s America to be somehow relevant to 2020 America. I understand the loyalty many Johnny Rebs had to their cause. What many people here expect is for a very large bunch of southern people who grew up hearing the stories of great, great grandpa did during the civil war. I am a New York Yankee. I spent quite a few weekends at my friends home in Marion North Carolina. I met a quite a few of of these Johnny rebs . My car, a 1975 Chevy Impala still had my New York State plates on it. You wanna guess how many times I was told to go back to New Yahhk? I understand the family loyalty to their relatives. These folks in Marion at that time all seemed to have a relative that fought for the rebel cause. What most people are asking today is for these folks to repudiate their entire family history a kn d admit great, great grandaddy was just a racist slave loving SOB. The funny part was most if these Johnny rebs I met were as dirt poor as the slaves that worked on the plantations. They all had one thing in common. They grew up picking cotton and tobacco and most of them could not afford shoes. I disagree 100% with the loyalty to the Confederate cause. This is just my opinion, it had less to do with slavery than it did for their contempt and mistrust for the federal government.

Actually, I'm far less concerned with the thinking of southerners or others supporting the Confederacy in the 1850's and '60's than I am those who actually erected these monuments as part of Jim Crow intimidation. Likewise, I'm concerned with the ongoing veneration of those views, which are abhorrent to me.

I get the 'rebel' appeal, just not the underlying ignorance and racism that is the reality of these monuments.

and yeah, unfortunately, the "contempt and distrust for the federal government", when put through the Lost Cause prism, has a huge overlap with white supremacist views. It's code for their resentment at being told that blacks should have the same rights as whites.

[Matnum PI]

Poignant Words from Trevor Baptiste

http://fanlax.com/fanlax/2020/06/10/poi ... -baptiste/

[RedFromMI]

Having grown up in the Union North, but lived almost my entire adult life in the South - I can tell you that a significant part of that Confederate "heritage" is connected to erasing the real reasons for the Civil War.

Most of those monuments to Confederate heroes were part of a whole movement to re-define the reasons for the war (often called the War of Northern Aggression by some of them) that took place at the tail end of the 1800s and through the 1920s, when the KKK came into being and the Jim Crow laws removed the freed slaves from any semblance of power.

So those friends of cradle that see the issue as one of heritage and states rights were taught that way by a culture that had erased the actual history - in other words they had been fed a line of bull.

Quite different than the history I learned growing up in Michigan.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

agreed. there is no clear answer here.

which makes the movement such a slippery slope. right now it's downright whimsical.

i also highly doubt a college-aged protester cares about whether the monument to an old privileged white moneyed male slaveowner is on public or private property. they've shown recently that any property can be subject to damage for no particular reason other than convenience.

but since we're having the discussion. let's collapse half of rushmore.

Point well taken, Blue Eyes........nice reference...whimsical. Very appropriate to the discussion.

thank you for the spirited discussion- and for the record, i don't think all protesters are devoid of nuance nor destroy property. in fact it's probably a small number.

[MDlaxfan76]

I want all monuments and bridges dedicated to FDR torn down, renamed, or blown up because FDR interred Japanese-Americans during WW2.

and there it is. a slippery, directionless, whimsical slope.

Nah, PB is just a right wing troll.

No slope necessary with any of this.
We needn't be idiots.

But we do have every right to wonder what principles, symbols, and people we wish to venerate and how we wish to do so.

And which we don't.

so, rather than suggest rather absurd hypotheticals, are there ANY symbols and monuments used to promote a particular ideology that we should now reject? Including removing them from public property?

Or at there none such?

[Peter Brown]

I want all monuments and bridges dedicated to FDR torn down, renamed, or blown up because FDR interred Japanese-Americans during WW2.

and there it is. a slippery, directionless, whimsical slope.

I'm offended you people celebrate the 4th of July; the smugness that takes is unconscionable. Honestly, we need to burn all the American flags and replace with a Power to the People flag, with LGBTQ and BIPOC recognition. What is wrong with you people!!!!!! (Howard Dean scream please)

4th of July's Ugly Truth Exposed:

https://www.salon.com/2019/07/04/fourth ... prejudice/

Patriotism is racist; patriotism is a half-hearted attempt to launder xenophobia and ethnocentrism, and that is all!

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 53479.html


Let disslaxx and DocB take over this board and educate you neanderthals. Honestly, no borders, no laws, and no guns. Let's please get to the end of this cultural revolution now. Oh and please vote Democratic to do so. Thanks.

[MDlaxfan76]

Having grown up in the Union North, but lived almost my entire adult life in the South - I can tell you that a significant part of that Confederate "heritage" is connected to erasing the real reasons for the Civil War.

Most of those monuments to Confederate heroes were part of a whole movement to re-define the reasons for the war (often called the War of Northern Aggression by some of them) that took place at the tail end of the 1800s and through the 1920s, when the KKK came into being and the Jim Crow laws removed the freed slaves from any semblance of power.

So those friends of cradle that see the issue as one of heritage and states rights were taught that way by a culture that had erased the actual history - in other words they had been fed a line of bull.

Quite different than the history I learned growing up in Michigan.

It's a little more complicated, as these descendants of those Jim Crow proponents of the early 1900's, who lynched thousands of blacks, were also those who spat on school children in the '50's and 60's, those who called out the dogs during the '60's. Those young anti-civil rights haters are the parents and grandparents of today. This has not gone away, in all too many cases. They have learned a language less blatantly racist, yet the underlying prejudices all too often remain.

America had over 360 years of state-sanctioned racism and is now just over 50 years into such state sanctions first becoming illegal, though they persisted nevertheless into the '70's and then de facto thereafter. It's early in this era.

[cradleandshoot]

Germany has systematically destroyed its Nazi monuments.

It is now time for the United States to destroy all Confederate monuments. We can begin by destroying the Ku Klux Klan monument to Davis, Lee, and Jackson on Stone Mountain in Georgia. It should be replaced by a monument to African Americans who suffered in slavery.

Most of the large monuments began to appear in the early 20th Century, long after the war ended in 1865. The goal was not to preserve "Southern heritage," as the monuments' defenders now claim. Instead, the goal was to install white-supremacist icons that would intimidate African Americans and enforce whites' supremacy. Historian W. Fitzhugh Brundage, for example, has written that the monuments "were sometimes explicitly linked to the cause of white supremacy by the notables who spoke at their dedication" and that white industrialist Julian Carr "unambiguously urged his audience to devote themselves to the maintenance of white supremacy with the same vigor that their Confederate ancestors had defended slavery.

The history of the giant carvings on Stone Mountain, near Atlanta, is instructive. Planning of the carvings began only in 1914. Substantial funding for the project came from the KKK, which met on the mountain's top to burn crosses and the project's first directors and promoters were Klan members. The original plan was to depict General Robert E. Lee leading Confederate soldiers and Klan members up the mountain. Many other Confederate monuments were erected during this period, helping consolidate Jim Crow's racist hierarchy.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/opinions ... index.html

DocBarrister

well since we are going after anything associated with Lee, let's just get rid of W&L as well. or are you telling me there is no ode to the general anywhere on campus?

Any chance we can also get rid of Sheila Jackson Lee? She has two oppressive old white men in her name.

You just know DocB is down with speech suppression, book burning, and totalitarianism. No doubt he is good with Gone with the Wind being removed from HBO's streaming service.

What absolute fascist clowns, the whole Democratic Party.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hbo-max-pu ... 4?mod=e2tw

Are you gentlemen really defending a monument at Stone Mountain put up by the Ku Klux Klan?

Because if you are, state so clearly here. Let’s start with the easy stuff and then go on down the line.

The Germans made difficult decisions and choices. I’m sure the United States can as well.

I wanted Gone with the Wind on HBO Max, but I understand those who wouldn’t.

As for Washington & Lee ... let’s begin by removing the name of the guy who betrayed the United States and killed fellow Americans during the Civil War (Lee) and restore it to its former 19th century name (Washington College) and go from there. We can discuss Washington himself later.

Sit down ... this could take a while.

Anyway ... are any of you actually supporting the KKK monument on Stone Mountain?

Good ... it goes.

DocBarrister

I personally don't give a flying fig about the monument at Stone Mountain. If the folks in Georgia want to take it down... more power to them. Go for it. While they are at it they can address the inequities of those racist SOBs named Washington, Adam's and Jefferson. Those mother effing slave owning baztards need to get their comeuppance as well. That mother effing Washington monument has got to go...power to the sheeple. Let's just eradicate and erase the entire history of our nation. We can start over today from scratch and pretend none of our history prior to today ever even happened.

Really, no difference between a KKK monument, with 3 generals of the Confederacy, in Georgia, which explicitly seceded from the US due to slavery...and our Founders, imperfect as they may have been?

KKK, cradle.
white supremacy...

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... al-dilemma

I was hoping you would understand the sarcasm. You think white supremacists are more repugnant to you than they are to me? How repugnant do you think it is to a veteran like me to watch someone burning the American flag and loving it. What are you saying? That views repugnant to you should be outlawed or just plain stifled altogether? Should the first amendment rights of people we disagree with be outlawed in the land if the free? I was personally repulsed by a group of BLM folks that marched down the street shouting " pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon" That is what free speech is all about MD. We either have it for everyone or we don't. It sucks watching bad people spew their venom. It would suck alot worse if they were denied that right.

[Peter Brown]

We probably should cancel Welsh coal miners while we are at it. Sensitive times, can't be too careful.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion ... 683881002/

Only Democrats can fix our sins. Vote for Ilhan Omar for POTUS.

We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.