Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:01 am
ChairmanOfTheBoard wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:48 am
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:40 am
Peter Brown wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:25 am
get it to x wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:23 am
ChairmanOfTheBoard wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:13 am
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:01 am
Germany has systematically destroyed its Nazi monuments.
It is now time for the United States to destroy all Confederate monuments. We can begin by destroying the Ku Klux Klan monument to Davis, Lee, and Jackson on Stone Mountain in Georgia. It should be replaced by a monument to African Americans who suffered in slavery.
Most of the large monuments began to appear in the early 20th Century, long after the war ended in 1865. The goal was not to preserve "Southern heritage," as the monuments' defenders now claim. Instead, the goal was to install white-supremacist icons that would intimidate African Americans and enforce whites' supremacy. Historian W. Fitzhugh Brundage, for example, has written that the monuments "were sometimes explicitly linked to the cause of white supremacy by the notables who spoke at their dedication" and that white industrialist Julian Carr "unambiguously urged his audience to devote themselves to the maintenance of white supremacy with the same vigor that their Confederate ancestors had defended slavery.
The history of the giant carvings on Stone Mountain, near Atlanta, is instructive. Planning of the carvings began only in 1914. Substantial funding for the project came from the KKK, which met on the mountain's top to burn crosses and the project's first directors and promoters were Klan members. The original plan was to depict General Robert E. Lee leading Confederate soldiers and Klan members up the mountain. Many other Confederate monuments were erected during this period, helping consolidate Jim Crow's racist hierarchy.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/opinions ... index.html
DocBarrister
well since we are going after anything associated with Lee, let's just get rid of W&L as well. or are you telling me there is no ode to the general anywhere on campus?
Any chance we can also get rid of Sheila Jackson Lee? She has two oppressive old white men in her name.
You just know DocB is down with speech suppression, book burning, and totalitarianism. No doubt he is good with Gone with the Wind being removed from HBO's streaming service.
What absolute fascist clowns, the whole Democratic Party.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/hbo-max-pu ... 4?mod=e2tw
Are you gentlemen really defending a monument at Stone Mountain put up by the Ku Klux Klan?
Because if you are, state so clearly here. Let’s start with the easy stuff and then go on down the line.
The Germans made difficult decisions and choices. I’m sure the United States can as well.
I wanted Gone with the Wind on HBO Max, but I understand those who wouldn’t.
As for Washington & Lee ... let’s begin by removing the name of the guy who betrayed the United States and killed fellow Americans during the Civil War (Lee) and restore it to its former 19th century name (Washington College) and go from there. We can discuss Washington himself later.
Sit down ... this could take a while.
Anyway ... are any of you actually supporting the KKK monument on Stone Mountain?
Good ... it goes.
DocBarrister
no. in fact, i agree with you. (easy)
im asking where does this end. we have a way of painting ourselves into a corner. just checking ahead of time before it dries. (hard)
The school name was changed to recognize Robert E. Lee's contributions/reforms as the school president from 1865-70 during which he restored the school to fiscal health and instituted its Honor Code among many other contributions and reforms having nothing to do with his military service in the Civil War. George Washington (the other person in the name) was also a slave owner. IMHO Robert E. Lee made a significant contribution to his country prior to making a bad decision regarding his allegiance to that same country during the Civil War. HAs a result of that decision, he lost his family property and whatever fortune he amassed and he also knew he risked being executed as a traitor. There's a reasonable explanation why Lee, Davis and all those Confederates weren't tried as traitors and hung from the nearest scaffold - check out Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses Grant for the details.
That said, was surprised to learn upwards of 10 U.S. military bases are currently named after Confederate Generals - I agree that those names should be reconsidered - Heck, Fort Bragg is named after Braxton Bragg who was, arguably, one of the worst tactical commanders in the rebel army.
I agree. Focusing on W&L's name is a poor priority. Others are far more important, beginning with military bases.
Washington's gift of stock endowed the school, Lee served well as President post war, and his name was added shortly after his death in 1870. This was not part of Jim Crow. Lee is a complicated character, a man of considerable integrity, though tragically blinded to the implications of his actions. His descendants are quite vocal about their support for removal of statues erected to him that are really expressions of white supremacy.
Of course, the name of the university remains (and should be) a sensitive issue, quite worthy of exploration by its students. There have been a number of buildings renamed, portraits of the two men were changed to those with civilian rather than military attire, and graduates can elect to receive diplomas without their portraits, or with them. Students actively discuss this legacy with open eyes. Washing it all away as if not formative to the school would reduce such discussion and exploration.
Now, I say all that, yet would note that I have not spoken with black alums who may have a quite different perspective (my only connection is niece and many friends). I'd want to listen to their perspectives. And could be persuaded.
Re monuments in general, I think they should not be "destroyed" rather they should, whenever possible, be removed to museum settings and addressed as the artifacts of Jim Crow that they really are. We need to remember how ugly this period was... There may be some which cannot be placed in such settings, and to the extent that they remain potential symbols of white supremacy, I'm ok with their destruction.