Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[old salt]

Didn’t take the time to re-look at that local TV footage, but my recollection is the message the reporter clearly was trying to communicate was that he, or his team, had picked up a warm canister which clearly had been used on Monday.
That's what he was trying to convey, but the only canister in his hand, when he was standing in the street was the OC canister.

I’m not aware that the protesters were throwing anything early Monday evening. If so, it was de minimus.
Barr said he saw projectiles being thrown. You can see & hear the fireworks thrown in one of the video clips.

Why did the perimeter need to be moved back? Answer: it didn’t. The only reason it “needed” to be “moved” was because Trump wanted to go over to the church.
For the same reason they needed to clear H St the night before when they could not get the FD in.

The authorities started moving the crowd around 6:30, which was almost 2 hours before dark. So I don’t buy the “before dark” explanation. Plus this was 30 minutes before the curfew so the pushing back had nothing to do with that, either. You can’t remove somebody for violating the curfew 30 minutes before the curfew incepts. They still needed to erect the new fence before night fall when the rioters return.

It’s obvious they were moving the crowd for one reason and one reason only: to create space for Trump to walk through Lafayette Square for his illegal campaign photo op. Barr says the USPP made the decision to move the perimeter Sun night, he approved it Mon, directed it to happen at 2pm & he didn't know about the Presidential stroll

How can it possibly be legal to engage in these crowd control measures to enable an illegal activity?
The movement of the President & 1st family is not an illegal activity.

If the protesters who filed suit had not gotten unlucky with the wheel, I think their case would have some real legs.

[njbill]

I’ll bet he had some particularly good stories about David Crosby.

One of the things that was said in the first episode was that neither Nash nor Crosby were very good guitarists. Stills was, but they needed to add another good guitar player to tour, which is why Neil Young joined the group.

[njbill]

Didn’t take the time to re-look at that local TV footage, but my recollection is the message the reporter clearly was trying to communicate was that he, or his team, had picked up a warm canister which clearly had been used on Monday.
That's what he was trying to convey, but the only canister in his hand, when he was standing in the street was the OC canister.

I’m not aware that the protesters were throwing anything early Monday evening. If so, it was de minimus.
Barr said he saw projectiles being thrown. You can see & hear the fireworks thrown in one of the video clips. I happened to be watching pretty much the entire affair, from before the Rose Garden speech until the "Bible talk." Granted I wasn't there and could only see what they showed on TV, but I don't recall the crowd being particularly disruptive until the authorities started trying to get them to move.

Vaguely recall something like fireworks, but it's not clear to me who threw it or whether it was some type of flash grenade used by the cops. Even if it was thrown by someone in the crowd, I suspect that it was in response to the cops starting to push them.

You may have seen Jeh Johnson say on TV today that sometimes it is better to have fewer cops with a lower profile because the larger, more aggressive presence can unnecessarily incite the crowd.

Why did the perimeter need to be moved back? Answer: it didn’t. The only reason it “needed” to be “moved” was because Trump wanted to go over to the church.
For the same reason they needed to clear H St the night before when they could not get the FD in. But there was no fire Monday night. It seems abundantly clear the only reason they started trying to move the crowd was to create a path for Trump.

The authorities started moving the crowd around 6:30, which was almost 2 hours before dark. So I don’t buy the “before dark” explanation. Plus this was 30 minutes before the curfew so the pushing back had nothing to do with that, either. You can’t remove somebody for violating the curfew 30 minutes before the curfew incepts. They still needed to erect the new fence before night fall when the rioters return. But they didn't do that. They put up the fence around Lafayette Square in the dead of night or very early a.m., which I suspect was their plan all along. No way they were going to do that in the daylight with the big crowd around. That would have been extremely disruptive. The crowd would have gone nuts. And the very special genius of TV optics would have known that would have been a really bad image for him.

It’s obvious they were moving the crowd for one reason and one reason only: to create space for Trump to walk through Lafayette Square for his illegal campaign photo op. Barr says the USPP made the decision to move the perimeter Sun night, he approved it Mon, directed it to happen at 2pm & he didn't know about the Presidential stroll Why would Barr need to approve the fence? If that is Park Police, that is Interior, not Justice. Again, I can't imagine they intended to try to put up the fence when the daytime crowd was there.

Barr may not have known about the stroll in advance. It seems it was a last minute deal. If he'd known in advance, maybe he would have put on a tie.

How can it possibly be legal to engage in these crowd control measures to enable an illegal activity?
The movement of the President & 1st family is not an illegal activity. The movement per se may not be, but movement in violation of the curfew is. Even if the president is exempt from the curfew for official business, this wasn't official business. It was a campaign event. And even if the curfew doesn't apply to the president at all (based on what? is he above the law?), it certainly applies to his family and his entourage.

In sum, Trump had the authorities (probably illegally) move the crowd that was legally exercising its 1st A. rights for his own illegal activity, to wit, a campaign photo op in violation of the curfew.

If the protesters who filed suit had not gotten unlucky with the wheel, I think their case would have some real legs.

[old salt]

Some more details on what will go down in history as last Mon's Battle of Lafayette Park, or Trump crossing H Street.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... r-n1221126

It was a show of force for demonstration purposes, ...as those in the street fled mounted police to avoid being trampled, struck by projectiles or gassed. It also came as a surprise to the protesters, who were flanked by police after National Guard and federal agents acted as decoys by advancing from the front in full riot gear.

The protesters had expected to have until a 7 p.m. curfew to voice their criticism, but police moved on them almost a half-hour before that. Washington Mayor Muriel Bowser had announced the 7 p.m. curfew earlier Monday, but it was clear shortly after 6 p.m. that authorities were getting ready for imminent conflict.

Attorney General William Barr walked purposefully between lines formed by U.S. Park Police, National Guard members and law enforcement officers from various federal agencies. The officers put on gas masks, raised shields and moved forward until they were face to face with protesters.

Then they backed off a little, and police rushed in from the east side of the street, firing rubber bullets, pepper spray, tear gas and flash-bang grenades into the crowd.

The curfew was imposed after a chaotic night of violent protests in downtown Washington, in which people started fires — including one in the basement of the church — stole from businesses across the city and vandalized numerous buildings.

Trump's Rose Garden address to the nation was a vow to use military force to quell the disruptions if local officials did not do so.

Police officers, some on horses, also pushed back protesters around the White House, Lafayette Square and its surrounding blocks moments after Trump's speech ended, as he and some members of his administration, including Barr and press secretary Kayleigh McEnany, walked from the White House to pay their respects at the fire-damaged church.

Asked whether the park had been cleared to accommodate Trump's visit to the church, White House deputy press secretary Judd Deere said: "The perimeter was expanded to help enforce the 7 p.m. curfew in the same area where rioters attempted to burn down one of our nation's most historic churches the night before. Protesters were given three warnings by the U.S. Park Police."

Barr was seen entering the White House complex shortly before Trump spoke. He was greeted by protesters cursing him, as well, after they spotted him.

"Significant damage" occurred across the city, especially near Lafayette Square adjacent to the White House, Bowser said Monday morning, adding, "We will not allow the continued destruction of our hometown by people who are coming here to protest or by D.C. residents."

https://wtop.com/dc/2020/06/some-clarit ... ns-remain/

...on the evening of June 1, just as President Donald Trump was making a speech about authorities asserting themselves in the face of the Floyd-inspired protests around the country, a combination of shield-wielding police from federal agencies (Secret Service, Park Police, DC National Guard) and nearby Arlington, Virginia, began to push the assembled crowd back past the north side of the square, toward H Street NW and beyond.

Just after the crowd was pushed north, away from the Square, Trump emerged from the White House and walked one block to the historic St. John’s Episcopal Church to take photos with a Bible in his hand.
Trump walked through the park to reach St. John’s Episcopal Church shortly after it was cleared.

CBS News confirmed reporting from The Washington Post that Barr and his office made the decision either late Sunday (May 31) or early Monday to extend the perimeter around the White House. When he arrived in the area on Monday afternoon, he surveyed the square and was disappointed his request had not yet been carried out.

At that point, after talking with police, the move to expand the perimeter started. A Department of Justice official, who spoke with The Washington Post on the condition of anonymity, said “he [Barr] basically said: ‘This needs to be done. Get it done.'”

However, in a statement late Tuesday from the U.S. Park Police Acting Chief Gregory T. Monahan, there was no mention of this conference with Barr. Instead, the Park Police characterized protesters close to the park as being violent and throwing objects such as frozen water bottles and “caustic liquids,” which is what prompted three warnings to move back and an eventual push on the crowd.

WTOP’s reporter on the scene, Alejandro Alvarez, who posted video to Twitter showing Barr evaluating the situation at the north end of the square earlier in the afternoon, " From my vantage point the only hint police were about to charge was the national guard marching to the barricade minutes before it happened."

According to a CBS News Justice Department source, Barr and his department made the decision to move the crowd back from the square regardless of Trump’s plan to walk to the church for photos.

But, CBS News also reported that Barr and other presidential advisers wanted Trump to make the walk in a “show of strength” after reports surfaced over the weekend that he had retreated into a White House bunker during Friday night’s protests.

D.C. police Chief Newsham, in his discussion of Monday’s incident during a Tuesday news conference, also noted that “federal law enforcement officers” gave warnings to disperse.

“As many of the protesters became more combative, continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons, officers then employed the use of smoke canisters and pepper balls.” Monahan’s statement also described “caches of glass bottles, baseball bats and metal poles hidden along the street.”

PepperBall is in fact a brand name touted on the company’s website as “your complete nonlethal solution.” The balls themselves resemble paint balls, and can be “launched” from different devices, most of which resemble weapons.

Promotional material calls PepperBalls “the most effective chemical irritant available” and can create a 12-foot cloud that can affect the eyes, nose and throat of those who are in the way.

A Google search shows that PepperBalls were recently used to break up a crowd at the University of Dayton in early May. News reports from that incident also note a confusion between the PepperBalls and tear gas.

Newsham noted in his news conference Tuesday that D.C. police was only made aware of Trump’s planned walk to the church moments before it happened, and even then, it was only called “presidential movement in the area” of Lafayette Square.

I'm still searching for images, video or specific reporting to confirm whether or not the NG MP's actually physically engaged protesters or if they just held the line, backing up the police in riot gear who physically engaged the protesters.
The NBC report indicates the NG line was a decoy, moving the crowd back from the grass & sidewalk, outside the bicycle fence barrier on the N edge of Laf Park, into H St, where riot police & mounted police moved in from E to W on H St, moving the crowd W toward & across 17th & up Penn Ave NW, clearing Laf Pk, H St & 16th, for the Presidential stroll to St John's. I eagerly await the History Channel movie.

[old salt]

I don't recall the crowd being particularly disruptive until the authorities started trying to get them to move.

Vaguely recall something like fireworks, but it's not clear to me who threw it or whether it was some type of flash grenade used by the cops. Even if it was thrown by someone in the crowd, I suspect that it was in response to the cops starting to push them.

Watch the video embedded in the WTOP report when the NG MP's moved up, still behind the bicycle fence barrier, in front of the crowd.
You can hear the rumbling begin.

The fireworks were in the rear of the crowd, shortly after they started moving backward, in an orderly fashion. You heard a loud bang, then several crackling pops which could be misinterpreted as gun shots. That spooked the crowd & they began to run. I think it was on 16th, but it might nave been H St. You could see those same star shell fireworks employed frequently last wk end in NYC & DC, probably by the organized agitators.

[cradleandshoot]

Didn’t take the time to re-look at that local TV footage, but my recollection is the message the reporter clearly was trying to communicate was that he, or his team, had picked up a warm canister which clearly had been used on Monday.
That's what he was trying to convey, but the only canister in his hand, when he was standing in the street was the OC canister.

I’m not aware that the protesters were throwing anything early Monday evening. If so, it was de minimus.
Barr said he saw projectiles being thrown. You can see & hear the fireworks thrown in one of the video clips.

Why did the perimeter need to be moved back? Answer: it didn’t. The only reason it “needed” to be “moved” was because Trump wanted to go over to the church.
For the same reason they needed to clear H St the night before when they could not get the FD in.

The authorities started moving the crowd around 6:30, which was almost 2 hours before dark. So I don’t buy the “before dark” explanation. Plus this was 30 minutes before the curfew so the pushing back had nothing to do with that, either. You can’t remove somebody for violating the curfew 30 minutes before the curfew incepts. They still needed to erect the new fence before night fall when the rioters return.

It’s obvious they were moving the crowd for one reason and one reason only: to create space for Trump to walk through Lafayette Square for his illegal campaign photo op. Barr says the USPP made the decision to move the perimeter Sun night, he approved it Mon, directed it to happen at 2pm & he didn't know about the Presidential stroll

How can it possibly be legal to engage in these crowd control measures to enable an illegal activity?
The movement of the President & 1st family is not an illegal activity.

If the protesters who filed suit had not gotten unlucky with the wheel, I think their case would have some real legs.

"If the protesters who filed suit had not gotten unlucky with the wheel, I think their case would have some real legs."

Are you saying the justice system is inherently biased depending on what judge is assigned the case? That does not speak very well for our system of justice IMO. You know your case is screwed before you even get to court. The other side is you know with the right judge... wink, wink your case is walking down easy street. What a great system of justice.

[cradleandshoot]

Seriously a Fan. You actually think a 911 operator should determine who responds. It is not very often I would ever say this to you but that is one boneheaded idea. It sounds simple at face value, until the first 911 operator fluffs up the call and the lollypop patrol shows up and gets blown away because 911 made the wrong call. Just for chips and giggles could you define what situations call for the lollypop patrol and what situations require armed police response? You think the 911 operator is qualified to make that decision. I sure as hell don't think so. What the hell, give it a whirl, what could possibly go wrong.

No. I'm saying, there are MANY different ways to change our current system. Right now? Anytime anyone anywhere has any kind of problem? They call in armed people to the situation. Every time. No exceptions. What kind of neanderthal, thoughtless system is that?

Perfect example? The Central Park Karen. Do you think she should have called 911 here? Guns were needed in this situation? Really? Her ONLY option here is to send pricey armed people to resolve the situation? What if we give her more options? Smaller government. Lower taxes.




I can tell you our OSHA Emergency Handbook has several numbers for employees to call, depending on the situation.

1/4 to 1/2 of a large city budget is blown on policing. You're SURE there isn't a wiser use of our money?

What you are saying sounds great in theory. The reality of trying to make it happen is a different story. IMO the people calling for any kind of assistance for any given problem will never know who to call. Our whole lifetimes when there is a problem... call a cop. Do you think it is possible to inform an entire nation what agency to call when you need help? Here in NY it is SOP for the police to respond to every ambulance and fire call that are dispatched. On Christmas eve 2014 the West Webster FD responded to a call on Lake Rd. They were ambushed by a nutcase who shot and killed 2 firefighters. The carnage was ended because the Webster police had also responded and immediately returned fire and prevented the guy from shooting all the other firefighters. Maybe a Fan my problem is I have been watching too many of those old Adam 12 reruns. I know in theory you are correct. I have heard of the dumbest calls to 911 for police assistance for really silly things. If your local fast food place screws up your order you don't need to call the cops. Sorry for being so harsh on you. Your idea actually ain't all that bad. Trying to educate Joe and Betty public they need to call for the correct response, that is another story.

[Kismet]

Here ya go bill & Kismet. AG Barr answers many of our questions.
The CS canister found by WUSA was used last Sun night to clear a path through the rioters on H St so the FD could get to the fires in St John's church & the other historic building which was burned out. He confirms that only pepper balls were used on Mon.
Among other distortions, CBS changes "not support" to "opposed". It was clear from the context that Esper meant "not support (at this point" as he ordered active duty troops staged nearby, just in case. If he was categorically opposed to ever using the Insurrection Act, he would not have ordered those troops to pre-position.

I'm so thrilled to learn that the irritating ingredient in pepper balls/spray is NOT A CHEMICAL. If not a CHEMICAL What the heck is it?

Barr is a world-class spinner of questionable details and I would not trust him as far as I could throw him (and he's quite a big dude, too!) - like too many others nowadays utilizing the DOPUS method of denying things you see with your own eyes on video by making up stuff up out of whole cloth, these folks have taken this to an art form.

If all of the carnage, they were trying to to avert occurred on Sunday evening, why take until 6:30PM Monday to do something about it (other than about 30 minutes before the DOPUS entourage strolled over to the church for the inane photo op holding a bible upside down BTW). They could have moved it all back early Tuesday AM after they had cleared the area initially but before a new crowd arrived. The only good decision made at that time was by Gen. Milley positioning himself out of the photo-op picture. Good move, General!

Lastly,, if they are all on the up and up on all this - then why not go to Capitol Hill and answer some questions about it - so far, Esper and Milley have continued the company line and declined to appear. Has a active military officer ever ever declined to appear before a Congressional panel?
I suspect Barr would do the same. If this garbage had occurred during you precious Benghazi hearing you would have had a canary the size of a Pterodactyl.

I'm amazed that you can take in all this spin without getting disoriented. Time for you to throw your latest hero, Jeh Johnson under the bus.

[RedFromMI]

‘Last Week Tonight’: John Oliver On How Policing Is Entangled With White Supremacy, Reforming The System And Defunding The Police

For the article on last night's show:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/last- ... G1?ocid=st

The episode is not yet available on YouTube, but has a great amount of explanation of the history behind policing, and the attempts to keep problems from occurring. If you have access you should watch it.

[Kismet]

‘Last Week Tonight’: John Oliver On How Policing Is Entangled With White Supremacy, Reforming The System And Defunding The Police

For the article on last night's show:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/last- ... G1?ocid=st

The episode is not yet available on YouTube, but has a great amount of explanation of the history behind policing, and the attempts to keep problems from occurring. If you have access you should watch it.

Here you go



Reminds me of the Animal House scene - when Boon says to Otter during Belushi's Nazis/Pearl Harbor speech - "Forget it. He's rolling"

[old salt]

Sec of Army on National Guard deployment to DC. 5 were injured by thrown bricks on Sun night May 31, before the WH perimeter was extended the next day.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... tinue.html

Last week, Guard members from 11 states rushed to the district to support D.C. National Guard and law enforcement after May 31 protests around the White House turned violent. Angry crowds around the country took to the streets following the death of George Floyd, a unarmed black man who died after being taken into custody by Minneapolis police.

Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy made the announcement that thousands of Guard troops would pull out of D.C. after Saturday's peaceful demonstrations, which involved close to 45,000 people.

"Over the course of these last 48 hours, the National Guard as well as our interagency partners ... looked at the trend, saw that it had become very peaceful in nature and started developing a plan for the withdrawal of, first, out-of-state National Guardsmen supporting the D.C. Guard, and then how do we get on the glidepath to ultimately turn off the entire D.C. National Guard," McCarthy told defense reporters in a phone conference.
McCarthy said that he hopes to have all out-of-state elements home within 72 hours.

In total, about 5,240 Guard members had converged on D.C., with about 1,500 Guardsmen serving on any given day to man roadblocks, prevent crowds from trespassing White House grounds and protect key monuments in the city, said Maj. Gen. William Walker, commander of the D.C. National Guard.

The buildup of forces came after protests on the evening of May 31 quickly got out of control, with violent protesters looting, damaging monuments and storming barricades.

"On Sunday evening (May 31), security elements were almost overwhelmed and you had buildings damaged and defaced [and] lit on fire, and people trying to get to the [White House] fence," McCarthy said.

Five soldiers received head injuries after being hit in the head with bricks thrown by demonstrators, McCarthy said. The assaults resulted in one soldier suffering from a severe concussion, he added.

D.C. Guard members were stationed behind the U.S. Park Police and Secret Service, Walker said.

"We are not a law enforcement agency; we protect, and we defend," Walker said. "On that night, my soldiers and airmen were defending the nation. We were defending the capital, and we were the last line of defense. ... And on a couple of occasions, they penetrated the line and our Guardsmen ... held the line and kept people from advancing onto the White House proper."

On Monday, the Pentagon ordered about 1,600 active-duty soldiers from units including the 82nd Airborne Division's 2nd Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment from Fort Bragg, North Carolina and the 91st Military Police Battalion out of Fort Drum, New York to deploy to the region in case they were needed to move into the city.

"We didn't know if we could put a lot of the support into the city quickly by marshaling National Guardsmen from surrounding areas," McCarthy said.

In addition, 800 soldiers from the D.C-based 3rd U.S. Infantry Regiment, known as The Old Guard, were also put on standby status.

All active units have returned to their home station as the protests continue to be non-violent, McCarthy said.

"We came right up to the edge to bring active troops here, and we didn't," McCarthy said. "They were on the [city's] outskirts because we didn't want to do it; the Department of Defense didn't want to do it, because we knew once you went to that escalation, it gets very, very difficult."

Instead, after a lot of phone calls to other states, McCarthy said, "Guardsmen jumped in their vehicles and rushed to the capital to support us, and we are very grateful for that."

[old salt]

I'm so thrilled to learn that the irritating ingredient in pepper balls/spray is NOT A CHEMICAL. If not a CHEMICAL What the heck is it?
Lastly,, if they are all on the up and up on all this - then why not go to Capitol Hill and answer some questions about it

Pepper spray/balls are made of (are you ready for this ?) ...PEPPER

They've been dealing with rioters, looters & protests for the past 10 days straight.
Let them answer the media second guessers before they move to the Congressional second guessers.

[Peter Brown]

You’re being played so hard. Yes that’s what it’s about, cost savings. Lol.

It can be about that, in part, if you'd pull your head out and get some air, Pete.

What could Trump and the Republicans in Congress do-----right now----to facilitate the dismantling of these Union-run police departments, AND get costs to come down? AND get voters to consider the Republican party after the Dems in Minneapolis clearly have their heads up their ****es?

Think Pete. Shut up about "the libs are bad" for five minutes, and think for a change. Surely you have something else to say other than Dems are bad.

Why are PD unions any more critical than teacher unions? Arguably, teachers have failed far more Americans than police...why aren;t you beating the drums about that, a fan?

While we are at it, why is AFSCME and NEIU allowed? How is it that government employees at all get to negotiate when the other side of the bargaining table are merely recipients of their cash? Who represents the taxpayer?

I think American police generally though not specifically are fine. I think federal and state employees are generally bad but specifically fine. Why are you only outraged about police? Where I live, the police are our friends and neighbors; I don't tend to have a beef with any of them. In fact two sheriffs are very good friends of mine and I didn't even need to pay them to do so; Democrats get paid by government unions all the time. Why aren't you outraged about that? What is it about police that have you so wound up? I'm thinking I might be the only one here who has ever visited a federal prison to visit a friend who was jammed up on some outrageously bs charges by the feds; that guy has moved on, he doesn't spend his day railing all cops. Why do you?

[Kismet]

I'm so thrilled to learn that the irritating ingredient in pepper balls/spray is NOT A CHEMICAL. If not a CHEMICAL What the heck is it?
Lastly,, if they are all on the up and up on all this - then why not go to Capitol Hill and answer some questions about it

Pepper spray/balls are made of (are you ready for this ?) ...PEPPER

Yep - and the main ingredient is Capsaicin which is a chemical compound that was first isolated from chili peppers in crystalline form in 1878.

So Mr. Barr's statement was incorrect at best and a LIE at worst.

your witness, Counselor.

not for nothing
It's part of their job to answer questions. They are government employees and are subject to oversight from both the Congress and the press. They are also required to wear Identification and identify themselves if they take action against people. Sorry that you feel they should get a total pass on everything - things must have changed with you on this since the Benghazi hearings.

[cradleandshoot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTe0MjAZvMU

Maybe some amplified Slim Witman could disperse all the crowds. I am not sure if their heads will explode though.

[get it to x]

You’re being played so hard. Yes that’s what it’s about, cost savings. Lol.

It can be about that, in part, if you'd pull your head out and get some air, Pete.

What could Trump and the Republicans in Congress do-----right now----to facilitate the dismantling of these Union-run police departments, AND get costs to come down? AND get voters to consider the Republican party after the Dems in Minneapolis clearly have their heads up their ****es?

Think Pete. Shut up about "the libs are bad" for five minutes, and think for a change. Surely you have something else to say other than Dems are bad.

Why are PD unions any more critical than teacher unions? Arguably, teachers have failed far more Americans than police...why aren;t you beating the drums about that, a fan?

While we are at it, why is AFSCME and NEIU allowed? How is it that government employees at all get to negotiate when the other side of the bargaining table are merely recipients of their cash? Who represents the taxpayer?

I think American police generally though not specifically are fine. I think federal and state employees are generally bad but specifically fine. Why are you only outraged about police? Where I live, the police are our friends and neighbors; I don't tend to have a beef with any of them. In fact two sheriffs are very good friends of mine and I didn't even need to pay them to do so; Democrats get paid by government unions all the time. Why aren't you outraged about that? What is it about police that have you so wound up? I'm thinking I might be the only one here who has ever visited a federal prison to visit a friend who was jammed up on some outrageously bs charges by the feds; that guy has moved on, he doesn't spend his day railing all cops. Why do you?

You beat me to the punch PB. If we are going to grade on outcomes for urban poor, the police grade a lot higher than the educational system. Dems are willing to accept 13 Baltimore HS with zero students proficient in math (2017 data). This largely impacts families that can't afford Gilman or Bryn Mawr. Because Dems get the bulk of political contributions from teachers unions and teachers are a reliable Dem vote Dems will accept the main thing that keeps people locked in to lower economic status. Educated people have greater economic mobility and Dems want to deny them that mobility. They are the ones creating ghettos and food deserts.

The attached article (again 2017) shows how the left is against urban school vouchers/school choice. Even Obama education officials are highly critical of the AFT and their leadership. The AFT tried to say school vouchers were a way to segregate and not help black children when most black parents are in favor of vouchers. City public schools are the guards of the new internment camps. Keep them uneducated and dependent and we can use crumbs to lock in their votes. Free the people from this institutionalized injustice. AFT President Randi Weingarten once said the kids were not her concern, her concern was for the teachers.

[CU88]

Wait, what?

Trump Homeland Security official says he believes George Floyd would not have been spared if he were white

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/07/poli ... index.html

[old salt]

I'm so thrilled to learn that the irritating ingredient in pepper balls/spray is NOT A CHEMICAL. If not a CHEMICAL What the heck is it?
Lastly,, if they are all on the up and up on all this - then why not go to Capitol Hill and answer some questions about it

Pepper spray/balls are made of (are you ready for this ?) ...PEPPER

Yep - and the main ingredient is Capsaicin which is a chemical compound that was first isolated from chili peppers in crystalline form in 1878.

So Mr. Barr's statement was incorrect at best and a LIE at worst.

The active ingredient in pepper spray is capsaicin, which is a chemical derived from the fruit of plants in the genus Capsicum, including chilis.
Extraction of oleoresin capsicum (OC) from peppers requires capsicum to be finely ground, from which capsaicin is then extracted using an organic solvent such as ethanol. The solvent is then evaporated, and the remaining waxlike resin is the oleoresin capsaicin.

[RedFromMI]

I'm so thrilled to learn that the irritating ingredient in pepper balls/spray is NOT A CHEMICAL. If not a CHEMICAL What the heck is it?
Lastly,, if they are all on the up and up on all this - then why not go to Capitol Hill and answer some questions about it

Pepper spray/balls are made of (are you ready for this ?) ...PEPPER

Yep - and the main ingredient is Capsaicin which is a chemical compound that was first isolated from chili peppers in crystalline form in 1878.

So Mr. Barr's statement was incorrect at best and a LIE at worst.

The active ingredient in pepper spray is capsaicin, which is a chemical derived from the fruit of plants in the genus Capsicum, including chilis.
Extraction of oleoresin capsicum (OC) from peppers requires capsicum to be finely ground, from which capsaicin is then extracted using an organic solvent such as ethanol. The solvent is then evaporated, and the remaining waxlike resin is the oleoresin capsaicin.

It is all in the definition of chemical the two of you are using, and OS's version is much stricter including (from the context) only man-made chemicals.

But that is not a standard definition - capsaicin is a naturally occurring organic compound, more commonly the definition as a noun is:

a compound or substance that has been purified or prepared, especially artificially.

The process of preparing capsaicin if obtained from a pepper certainly meets the definition as an artificially prepared purification, so yes this most commonly would be considered a chemical. And since peppers are quite common, you would not bother to synthesize it in most circumstances.

OS is being disingenuous in his usage.

[6ftstick]

I'm so thrilled to learn that the irritating ingredient in pepper balls/spray is NOT A CHEMICAL. If not a CHEMICAL What the heck is it?
Lastly,, if they are all on the up and up on all this - then why not go to Capitol Hill and answer some questions about it

Pepper spray/balls are made of (are you ready for this ?) ...PEPPER

Yep - and the main ingredient is Capsaicin which is a chemical compound that was first isolated from chili peppers in crystalline form in 1878.

So Mr. Barr's statement was incorrect at best and a LIE at worst.

your witness, Counselor.

not for nothing
It's part of their job to answer questions. They are government employees and are subject to oversight from both the Congress and the press.
Sorry that you feel they should get a total pass on everything - things must have changed with you on this since the Benghazi hearings.

Are you prepared to argue the chemical makeup of the incendiary that set the Church Trump walked to ON FIRE.

Naaaahhhhhh. Trump Trump harrumph Trump