Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

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a fan
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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old salt wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:22 pm
a fan wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:08 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:51 pm Mayors are not willing to impose those restrictions. The chaos serves their political agenda. Standing up to the looters & rioters does not.
You think that having chaos in a city helps an incumbent Mayor? The ENTIRE POINT to the demonstrations is that the demonstrators are furious at the existing power structure in these cities, OS. Who do you think they're mad at? Putin?

Don't quit your day job and become a political consultant, OS.

"Vote for me, I was the guy who was in office when citizens were being murdered, and the city was on fire!"
Why did so many (D) Mayors & Govs resist calling in the National Guard early enough to make a difference ?
I have absolutely no idea. I could list some possibilities, but I have no clue.

I'm reacting to the idea that they'd do that on purpose. Burning, looting, and murdered citizens doesn't help those in power to get reelected. That's my only point here.
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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Peter Brown wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:05 pm The long term issue is ironically easier, imo:

1. STOP SENDING PEOPLE TO PRISON FOR FIRST TIME NON-VIOLENT CRIME (please bear in mind that 'jail' is not 'prison'; jail can be used for anything less than 10 days and will involve tons of non-violent crime).

2. Anyone today in prison for selling weed of any nature to be released and have records expunged.

3. Stop cash bail for any charge that is not violent.

4. Make prosecutors and cops personally liable for any provable offense such as hiding evidence that shows the defendant was innocent.
Not a single one of these things addresses the issue at hand, Pete. The social contract with Black Americans is broken.

Their Civil Rights are not the same as my civil rights. As a result, they're getting harassed and killed by the government that's supposed to protect them.
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RedFromMI
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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Here are some possible things that can be done to answer some of the issues involved. I am taking this from a cartoon poster commented on by Matthew Yglesias (one of the founders of Vox Media) who commented that there were some good ideas presented in a bizarre way. So I will summarize some of their suggestions (my comments are in red):

1. The first few panels claim the following: Police are not allies - started to fight strikes for rights, slave uprisings, indigenous freedom. (Not sure I agree with this premise but their are some potential hidden truths there). Also - police are ineffective (solve 20% of violent crimes, 7% of property crimes). (Not sure about these stats) Police are expensive - one of the largest city expenditures (only if you ignore school spending which is usually in a separate budget, but all taxpayers locally pay it.)

2. Next panel set is wanting to decommodify law enforcement. First group - mental health is healthcare, and we use cops untrained in it to intercede - instead we need trained crisis specialists for this. Too much money spent on militarizing LE - rather invest in communities to fix root causes. Drug war is often pointless as some drug use can be done without harm (this goes a bit too far, but the drug war has been mostly a failure)

3. Listen to economists - prison system is now an economic complex. Stop enslaving jailed prisoners by requiring them to work for top brands, mandatory minimum sentences a problem - seek alternative means of punishments, stop private for profit prisons.

4. Listen to doctors - reform people. Punishment has very few positive effects and kills feeling of guilt - use evidence based enforcement methods. Use Bastoy prison island as a model (16% recidivism rate vs. 70%). Don't put the 20% inmates that are mentally ill in a place they don't belong.

5. Poverty is the parent of crime - pay a workable minimum wage so full-time at that rate is survivable and people do not have to work outside the system. More employment with a jobs guarantee instead of artificially keeping pool low to suppress wages. Inequality cycle broken thourh education - train and release (prisoners 40% less likely to reoffend when educated.

So what about these ideas? (to start a discussion)
DMac
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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The drug war has been mostly a failure is grossly understating what a complete failure and waste of manpower it has been (unless you consider profits private prisons have gained from it). Legalize drugs, regulate them, collect taxes on sales, and let professionals deal with addicts or those who have a problem with them. This is not something police forces and our judicial system should be dealing with. The proof is in the pudding.
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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a fan wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:34 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:22 pm Mayors are not willing to impose those restrictions. The chaos serves their political agenda. Standing up to the looters & rioters does not.
I'm reacting to the idea that they'd do that on purpose. Burning, looting, and murdered citizens doesn't help those in power to get reelected. That's my only point here.
Never let a good crisis go to waste.


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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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Yet another man who can't see the forest from the trees. Tucker has his head so far up his *ss, that he can't see that the people of Minneapolis are looking to shut down a Democratic institution.

It's right there: Minneapolis is talking about disbanding an organization that isn't working: the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis. And then starting from scratch to form a new organization that actually works for the people of Minnesota. Is Tucker REALLY so stupid that he thinks people are calling to end all policing in America? That they are calling for Anarchy?

If Republicans could shut up about looting for five minutes, pay attention, and listen to what people are saying.....they could transform the Party, and what it stands for. These are Democratically run cities, and people are sick of their failures. Listen. And then lead, FFS.

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old salt
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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a fan wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:48 pm Yet another man who can't see the forest from the trees. Tucker has his head so far up his *ss, that he can't see that the people of Minneapolis are looking to shut down a Democratic institution.
Did you bother to watch the video clips ? The images & homicide stats are straightforward & not manipulated.
In the third clip he calls out the GOP, Trump & Jared,
You can't do reform in the midst of chaos. You don't burn the village to save the village.
They don't want to disband the police unions for reform.
They don't want the cops to be able to defend themselves from becoming political scapegoats.
Here's the future :
wgdsr
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

Post by wgdsr »

RedFromMI wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:50 pm Here are some possible things that can be done to answer some of the issues involved. I am taking this from a cartoon poster commented on by Matthew Yglesias (one of the founders of Vox Media) who commented that there were some good ideas presented in a bizarre way. So I will summarize some of their suggestions (my comments are in red):

1. The first few panels claim the following: Police are not allies - started to fight strikes for rights, slave uprisings, indigenous freedom. (Not sure I agree with this premise but their are some potential hidden truths there). Also - police are ineffective (solve 20% of violent crimes, 7% of property crimes). (Not sure about these stats) Police are expensive - one of the largest city expenditures (only if you ignore school spending which is usually in a separate budget, but all taxpayers locally pay it.)

2. Next panel set is wanting to decommodify law enforcement. First group - mental health is healthcare, and we use cops untrained in it to intercede - instead we need trained crisis specialists for this. Too much money spent on militarizing LE - rather invest in communities to fix root causes. Drug war is often pointless as some drug use can be done without harm (this goes a bit too far, but the drug war has been mostly a failure)

3. Listen to economists - prison system is now an economic complex. Stop enslaving jailed prisoners by requiring them to work for top brands, mandatory minimum sentences a problem - seek alternative means of punishments, stop private for profit prisons.

4. Listen to doctors - reform people. Punishment has very few positive effects and kills feeling of guilt - use evidence based enforcement methods. Use Bastoy prison island as a model (16% recidivism rate vs. 70%). Don't put the 20% inmates that are mentally ill in a place they don't belong.

5. Poverty is the parent of crime - pay a workable minimum wage so full-time at that rate is survivable and people do not have to work outside the system. More employment with a jobs guarantee instead of artificially keeping pool low to suppress wages. Inequality cycle broken thourh education - train and release (prisoners 40% less likely to reoffend when educated.

So what about these ideas? (to start a discussion)
police dynamic should definitely have some degree of independent regulation to it, like everything should. a good case could made that it hasn't. that's likely to change.
my fear or prediction is that it will be co-opted with political interests and the end result won't be best case or optimal, for anyone.

the drug war has been disastrous. not a lot of great answers for the heavier stuff, though the nation seems to be on the right path. if there was/is a better path that globally countries have pursued (less death, less violent crime, less personal destruction) we should be pursuing it.

same with recividism. what has worked? there is data, are we using it to reform policy (continually)? doubt it. there has to be punishment, how do we work from there?

pushing employment from .gov for wages, guarantees has a cost. smart people with a lot of homework need to be involved.

the true answer, and it won't be pushed in a timeline or headline, is education and investment. that has not been a focus for decades. returns would come, they could be felt in hope in the interim as well as some real numbers, but lasting will take a while. every generation going forward should not have to deal with a broken system of schools or neighborhoods. they don't turn on a dime, but it's doable like they went into disrepair.

maybe we can use some of that climate change money (ok, that last one was a troll).
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

Post by Peter Brown »

a fan wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:43 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:05 pm The long term issue is ironically easier, imo:

1. STOP SENDING PEOPLE TO PRISON FOR FIRST TIME NON-VIOLENT CRIME (please bear in mind that 'jail' is not 'prison'; jail can be used for anything less than 10 days and will involve tons of non-violent crime).

2. Anyone today in prison for selling weed of any nature to be released and have records expunged.

3. Stop cash bail for any charge that is not violent.

4. Make prosecutors and cops personally liable for any provable offense such as hiding evidence that shows the defendant was innocent.
Not a single one of these things addresses the issue at hand, Pete. The social contract with Black Americans is broken.

Their Civil Rights are not the same as my civil rights. As a result, they're getting harassed and killed by the government that's supposed to protect them.


My proposals actually do help the issues at hand. Much of the black lives matter beef is with the entire justice system not simply one rogue cop. Start with the system that immediately brands young black kids as criminals. Know what happens when you can’t make bail for some penne ante bs charge? You stay in jail, missing work the next day. I’m sure you know what you do when guys don’t show up to work.

Man, I run a ‘second chance’ company. I take many convicts. They’re no different than you or me except most were poor and didn’t have a ton of options early on. And they really had no option when the prosecutors sought bail. You know many black guys are rotting in prison for bs charges, with families that want them home?
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

Post by Peter Brown »

You can never bend the knee to the mob, here at Fanlax or as mayor of Minneapolis. It will never be enough.

This weasel mayor was asked if he would defund the police and he said no (the city will go bankrupt soon as it has hundreds of millions of dollars in riot damages with no tax revenue and companies abandoning it for good reason). The city is on the precipice of anarchy; it’s police are it’s last hope at this stage.

Frey gets booed away because he won’t ‘defund the police’. Lol. What do you think the left mob wants if it doesn’t simply want anarchy?

The left mob will never be satisfied folks. Always remember that when you compromise with them.

Watch this humiliating video:

https://twitter.com/eamonwhalen/status/ ... 37728?s=21
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

“I wish you would!”
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

Post by kramerica.inc »

Is that Minnesota cop representative of cops everywhere?
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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“I wish you would!”
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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“I wish you would!”
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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Politicians shutter churches and synagogues then promote protests:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.co ... 1591376851
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

Post by Kismet »

Naval Academy Alumni Board Of Trustee Member Resigns After Facebook Ouburst

https://news.usni.org/2020/06/07/naval- ... ok-ouburst

"A member of the U.S. Naval Academy’s influential alumni association’s board of trustees and treasurer of his local alumni chapter was asked to resign Saturday after posting a live conversation to Facebook disparaging the academy’s admission of African Americans, Asian Americans and women.

Retired Capt. Scott Bethmann, USNA class of 1980, may not have realized his comments posted to Facebook Live. In the conversation with his wife, reviewed by USNI News, Bethmann used racial slurs against African Americans and made negative comments regarding the Naval Academy’s admission of African Americans, Asian Americans and women.

Current and former naval officers quickly noticed the comments. Some, apparently commented to his Facebook page while he was still recording, according to his comments.

Caleb Cronic, USNA class of 2011, the Jacksonville chapter president, posted a Facebook message Saturday afternoon stating Bethmann had resigned from his positions on both the local and national associations. Bethmann was also disenrolled from the local Chapter, and Cronic is acting as the interim trustee, he told USNI News."

Of course, Bethman says he's mortified. Stupid is as stupid does as they say. :oops:
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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a fan wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:48 pm Yet another man who can't see the forest from the trees. Tucker has his head so far up his *ss, that he can't see that the people of Minneapolis are looking to shut down a Democratic institution.

It's right there: Minneapolis is talking about disbanding an organization that isn't working: the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis. And then starting from scratch to form a new organization that actually works for the people of Minnesota. Is Tucker REALLY so stupid that he thinks people are calling to end all policing in America? That they are calling for Anarchy?

If Republicans could shut up about looting for five minutes, pay attention, and listen to what people are saying.....they could transform the Party, and what it stands for. These are Democratically run cities, and people are sick of their failures. Listen. And then lead, FFS.

Ahhhhh, the devil is in the details. The folks in Minneapolis want to re-invent policing. Good luck with that, to do that you have to re-invent criminals as well. I read many people in Minny saying they need to police differently. That would involve retraining every single police officer to new policing standards that nobody can define. It is so simple to say the police need to be a different type of police. It is really complicated how any city can make that happen. Do you ignore all traffic stops because that is profiling? Do you turn your head to all the open air corner drug dealers? Do you just give all low level crime a pass? How do you now handle those truly violent criminals that won't go into custody without a battle royal? How do you redesign policing? There are tactics that need to be refined. What will those new tactics be. The most dangerous call for any police officer is a domestic disturbance. They escalate into extreme violence at the drop of a hat. Anyone out there tell me how you repolice that response, I'm all ears. I would love to know how it is done and keep all parties safe at the same time. Ahhhhh, new policing, sounds nice, everybody loves the concept, nobody really knows how to make it happen and make it work.
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:49 am
Ahhhhh, the devil is in the details. The folks in Minneapolis want to re-invent policing. Good luck with that, to do that you have to re-invent criminals as well. I read many people in Minny saying they need to police differently. That would involve retraining every single police officer to new policing standards that nobody can define. It is so simple to say the police need to be a different type of police. It is really complicated how any city can make that happen. Do you ignore all traffic stops because that is profiling? Do you turn your head to all the open air corner drug dealers? Do you just give all low level crime a pass? How do you now handle those truly violent criminals that won't go into custody without a battle royal? How do you redesign policing? There are tactics that need to be refined. What will those new tactics be. The most dangerous call for any police officer is a domestic disturbance. They escalate into extreme violence at the drop of a hat. Anyone out there tell me how you repolice that response, I'm all ears. I would love to know how it is done and keep all parties safe at the same time. Ahhhhh, new policing, sounds nice, everybody loves the concept, nobody really knows how to make it happen and make it work.
Those are the 10,000 questions. Seems the MO now is shoot and ask questions later. Everyone in a position of power is likely scared to death to actually 'really' talk about what it is that can truly be done.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
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“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
Peter Brown
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

Post by Peter Brown »

youthathletics wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:49 am
Ahhhhh, the devil is in the details. The folks in Minneapolis want to re-invent policing. Good luck with that, to do that you have to re-invent criminals as well. I read many people in Minny saying they need to police differently. That would involve retraining every single police officer to new policing standards that nobody can define. It is so simple to say the police need to be a different type of police. It is really complicated how any city can make that happen. Do you ignore all traffic stops because that is profiling? Do you turn your head to all the open air corner drug dealers? Do you just give all low level crime a pass? How do you now handle those truly violent criminals that won't go into custody without a battle royal? How do you redesign policing? There are tactics that need to be refined. What will those new tactics be. The most dangerous call for any police officer is a domestic disturbance. They escalate into extreme violence at the drop of a hat. Anyone out there tell me how you repolice that response, I'm all ears. I would love to know how it is done and keep all parties safe at the same time. Ahhhhh, new policing, sounds nice, everybody loves the concept, nobody really knows how to make it happen and make it work.
Those are the 10,000 questions. Seems the MO now is shoot and ask questions later. Everyone in a position of power is likely scared to death to actually 'really' talk about what it is that can truly be done.


'Baltimore' is a great lesson in what happens when the police are attacked by politicians. They simply stop policing and only show up when the body drops. That way, you don't get sued or thrown under the bus by your mayor/DA/governor. Crime goes up; private businesses hire their own security (look at Johns Hopkins); and businesses abandon any part of town that is even partly suspect.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/ed ... story.html

The merchants at Mondawmin Mall in West Baltimore are apparently fed up after a wave of crime, including an armed robbery of a jewelry store in the middle of the day. Some gave up sales to shutter their doors in protest last week to try to get the attention of city officials and the property’s owners. We hope the red alert worked. Mondawmin Mall is no Harbor East or Rodeo Drive with its hodgepodge of independent sneakers stores and low-priced clothing establishments, but it is an important retail anchor in a part of the city sorely lacking in other amenities. The neglect of the mall is unacceptable and shameful, and not fair to the residents of the surrounding neighborhoods who want a safe place to shop just like everyone else. What shopper in their right mind is going to risk a trip to a mall where armed bandits are running around freely with people milling about? If employees say they fear for their lives, and hired security is scared to do their jobs as merchants contend, how are shoppers supposed to feel?

This whole 'defund the police' scenario is an absolute disaster for Democrats and they know it. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place; the smart ones know exactly what will occur if they 'defund the police', but they also need the votes of the agitators. Look what happened yesterday when Jacob Frey (Jacob Frey! He's on their side for heaven's sake!) refused to say he would 'defund the police'...they mocked and heckled him so he had to leave the street. If they do that to Jacob Frey, imagine what they will do to a half-normal Democrat like Biden who actually does believe in policing effectiveness.

Speak up, board Dems...you're in a pickle here.
Last edited by Peter Brown on Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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youthathletics
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Re: Racism in America- Week 2 of Riots

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Minneapolis Mayor Asks Trump For Aid After Riots Cause At Least $55 Million In Damage

City and state officials are attempting to get financial support from Congress or through the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Neither option looks promising, Rep. Betty McCollum (D-MN) said.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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