Here we go again with the Face Off

[FMUBart]

My solution: have both FOGO stickheads flat on the ground, the ball between them. Then the best move is a quick swipe at the ball, and after that it's an ordinary ground-ball situation.

Or, we could keep the start the way it is if flexible heads could be banned. It's the ridiculous specialized flexible heads that allow an unbudgeable clamp.

But now we're back to "fix the sticks", and why that isn't possible is still deeply mysterious to me, but whatever ...

No reason to "fix the sticks"...have the faceoff men put the FRONT of their sticks up to the ball(NOT THE BACK!)...and don't allow clamping--like the indoor game. No more pinch and pop, that was never the intent of the faceoff.

[shoothi]

Let the wings come in a be able to hit the face off guy. Forces the face off guy to make a quick move, either winning it outright or forcing a ground ball....much more exciting.

And for all the namby pamby complaining about the contact: the face off guy will get a clock in his head knowing how long he can be clamping, holding etc the ball before the wing arrives....it only happens once.

[spartanslynx]

Greg Gurenlian makes alot of good points.
At first he bashes the committee for not asking someone who faces off and ends with staying it will be more diverse

https://youtu.be/wUA7Yxxkgss

[FMUBart]

Let the wings come in a be able to hit the face off guy. Forces the face off guy to make a quick move, either winning it outright or forcing a ground ball....much more exciting.

And for all the namby pamby complaining about the contact: the face off guy will get a clock in his head knowing how long he can be clamping, holding etc the ball before the wing arrives....it only happens once.

Yes!

[steel_hop]

Steel Hop -- Thanks for digging in. I think you are saying that the number of guys at the very high end (winning more than 60%) has gone from "double digits" historically to 18 in 2019.

No, I am saying it has gone from 6 and increased by 300% from 2005 to 2019. From 2001 to 2019 there have been 12 individual game seasons where a player has gone over 700 FO win percentage. 9 of those seasons have been in the last 3 years. Between 2001 and 2015 it happened about once every 5 years.

I'm not sure what else needs to be shown that there is an issue that needed to be addressed because if kept going down this path, you would absolutely see some type of alternate possession occur. I don't think a large majority of people want that.

[wgdsr]

Steel Hop -- Thanks for digging in. I think you are saying that the number of guys at the very high end (winning more than 60%) has gone from "double digits" historically to 18 in 2019.

No, I am saying it has gone from 6 and increased by 300% from 2005 to 2019. From 2001 to 2019 there have been 12 individual game seasons where a player has gone over 700 FO win percentage. 9 of those seasons have been in the last 3 years. Between 2001 and 2015 it happened about once every 5 years.

I'm not sure what else needs to be shown that there is an issue that needed to be addressed because if kept going down this path, you would absolutely see some type of alternate possession occur. I don't think a large majority of people want that.

and there were dozens and dozens and dozens in the high 60s probably. how many of those 9 were from 2 guys? more than half? can we skew numbers both ways to make an argument?

here are all the all-time single season stats prior to 2019:

Faceoff Winning Percentage
Player, Team Year Games Won Att. Pct.
TD Ierlan, Albany (NY) 2018 19 359 454 .791
Mark Goers, Towson 1994 12 166 214 .776
Steve Shaw, Delaware 1985 16 185 239 .774
Steve Shaw, Delaware 1986 16 237 318 .750
Trevor Baptiste, Denver 2017 17 297 399 .744
Trevor Baptiste, Denver 2018 17 279 375 .744
Donnie McNichol, North Carolina 1993 16 108 146 .740
Steve Kraus, Virginia 1980 12 150 204 .735
Kevin Massa, Bryant 2013 19 315 434 .726
Alex Smith, Delaware 2007 19 311 430 .723
Chris Cercy, Syracuse 2000 16 253 356 .711
Alex Smith, Delaware 2005 17 251 354 .709
Dylan Protesto, Hartford 2016 18 272 384 .708
TD Ierlan, Albany (NY) 2017 18 323 456 .708
Hunter Forbes, Jacksonville 2018 15 258 367 .703
Will Gural, Brown 2016 18 270 386 .699
Bill Dirrigl, Syracuse 1988 15 274 393 .697
Ray Ignacio, UMBC 1987 13 151 217 .696
Sam Talkow, Boston U. 2016 13 139 200 .695

look at that. 80s, 90s, 2000s, there were some guys that were really good at faceoffs. if the list went down to 65%, you'd probably see a hundred more including from every era. the only thing that's consistent is they change the rules every couple years.

what would the big problem be if they decided... maybe just for a 2 year stretch... if they went by the actual rules and didn't allow guys to withhold?
who wants to bet me if this goes through they'll be changing rules again for faceoffs in another 2 years?

[spartanslynx]

Next time they will put the wings closer

[runrussellrun]

Part of me loves the athleticism and strength I see when two really good FOGOs go head to head for 15-30 seconds - like two wild animals fighting for herd dominance - to see who'll finally take possession. The other part is in complete agreement with posters like dmac and believe withholding the ball is not part of the essence of the game. In my opinion the latter should win out. As such, I wish refs would just call the rule as written: no extended withholding - clamp and rake or scoop in one motion.

The only method of hand placement I'm against is one that would prevent the ball from leaving the crosse, i.e. placing your thumb on the ball while cradling. The moto grip in and of itself doesn't prevent a ball's release. If an attack or defensemen found some way to better shoot or defend using a moto grip would that also be illegal?

Yeah 15 -30 seconds at a faceoff is real athleticism...maybe watch more WWE? Nothing better than watching a fogo head downfield with the ball on the back of his stick, what a joke that is!

put down the transitor radio, and stop advertising in the yellow pages.

In other words, carrying the ball in the back of the stick has been illegal for a while now......welcome to it NOT being the 1970's.

[FMUBart]

Whatever dude, I am against facing off with the back of the stick...or is that not allowed anymore, either...thanks for your insightful commentary.

[runrussellrun]

Four quarters

four STICK choices, per quarter.

ALL WOOD (including goalie )

NON-offset

Offset

Team choice

Team can choose which quarter they want to use them. Team choice, however, MUST be determined at the coin flip. In other words, a "top tier" team, like Hopkins, would call TEAM CHOICE to be NON-offset, stick heads. Mostly SAMS and M1's. SOme golden shafts as well. This matter much, espicially for the all important RPI invite stuff. WHY ?

SInce WINNING doens't count for much in a team RPI's, same for rewarding that good loss, Quint, et al would give "push" points, rewarding teams choosing old school sticks for its team choice. Using that SAM, or Barney, stick in the 4th quarter. Against the like of the MT. St. Mary's gang. (must have happened this year, needed OT to win, the avaian Blue Birds did ) So, since Quints Hopkins couldn't win on the field, they win the chess match. As always. RPI scheduling is SMART lacrosse. Why win, when you can get "bonus" rpi points for playing every game, team choice ,with old school non offsets .

This is the new N$aa RPI formula "push" proposal, by them rules folks.

WOOD (.45 RPI "push", per game )
Old Skoll NON-offsets (.25 reward , per game )
Old Skoll OFFsets (.10, per game )
Modern offsets (.05 per game, but ONLY for B1G & ACC teams. All others, you ain't getting an invite anywho )



OR, better yet, treat each stick like NASCAR ....standard issue. Keep under lock N key. Petro's good friends up in Gillette, knows some good security guys to protect the sticks prior to game day. (Does cold effect lacrosse sticks )

I see what the rules committee did here......they are providing entertainment in these confined times.

IN other words.......just STOP with this faceoff nonsense and changing rules. You wanna change rules ? Require colleges, PAINT the friggin football lines. It looks SO unsightly

[runrussellrun]

Whatever dude, I am against facing off with the back of the stick...or is that not allowed anymore, either...thanks for your insightful commentary.

Hey.....don't sling mud and NOT expect some land on your pearly whites....

Not a fan, but can YOU do what some of those WWE guys can do ? That ROCK guy won a NCAA football championship, is HE not an athlete?

To call FOGO's non athletes make you flat out wrong. I mean, what's your point?

[spartanslynx]

Box plot of Faceoff Percentage 2011-2020

https://imgur.com/a/BH90O39

Stats from http://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div

Only players who take at least 40 % of the teams FO

[Surfs_Up]

I wonder how much of this is money oriented? Why pay a scholarship to a guy that cannot dominate a game? Reduce the value of the position, and you have one more scholarship for another position?

Not saying that is the case, just random thought.

[CarolinaLax Dad]

I did like the post about how it hasn't been legal to carry the ball in the back of your stick for over 5 years.
I keep seeing that mentioned which indicates that almost every one making their case for big changes etc - has never taken a face-off.

The game will continue to evolve and so will the face-off.
You are going to see guys that will be able to pop the ball out to themselves- and it's going to be super fast. I am very hopeful that we see more fast breaks. I do think you will see more FOGOs taking face-offs from a defensive stance once they figure out they are getting beat or dont have a chance in winning. Then it becomes a possesion game.
My son has been laughing at all of the postings by "old men" (us) - he said "I dont understand why everyone that "doesn't play anymore or plays with other old men gets all upset" they arent playing college lacrosse and yes he said for me to stop posting about it - not going to change anyone's mind

[wgdsr]

Box plot of Faceoff Percentage 2011-2020

https://imgur.com/a/BH90O39

Stats from http://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div

i don't know what that all means, but there's gotta be at least a 2 out of a 100 faceoff difference in there. hope they change it up, stat.

[wgdsr]

My son has been laughing at all of the postings by "old men" (us) - he said "I dont understand why everyone that "doesn't play anymore or plays with other old men gets all upset" they arent playing college lacrosse and yes he said for me to stop posting about it - not going to change anyone's mind

you can tell him a number of people on here and other social media coach. probably some of the same types of people that helped teach him and many of his friends about the game.

[Can Opener]

Steel Hop -- Thanks for digging in. I think you are saying that the number of guys at the very high end (winning more than 60%) has gone from "double digits" historically to 18 in 2019.

No, I am saying it has gone from 6 and increased by 300% from 2005 to 2019. From 2001 to 2019 there have been 12 individual game seasons where a player has gone over 700 FO win percentage. 9 of those seasons have been in the last 3 years. Between 2001 and 2015 it happened about once every 5 years.

I'm not sure what else needs to be shown that there is an issue that needed to be addressed because if kept going down this path, you would absolutely see some type of alternate possession occur. I don't think a large majority of people want that.

My uncle runs a fruit operation in South Carolina. I will let him know about your cherry picking skills and ask if he needs any help this summer. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I am having trouble following the bouncing ball of 60%, 70%, '01, '05, '19, odd-numbered Wednesdays, etc. Wise guy banter aside, you now seem focused on seasons where FO specialists topped 70%. There have been 18 of those in history according to the NCAA record book. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/LAX_Recor ... /D1Men.pdf Of those 18, TD and Trevor are responsible for 5. They are two of the hardest-working and most creative talents in lacrosse. I don't hear many people begrudge their outlier careers. Of the other 13 times someone has topped 70%, here are the years in which they did it:
1980, 1985, 1986, 1993, 1994, 2000, 2005, 2007, 2013, 2016, 2018 & 2019 (2x)
There have always been guys who stood out over the years. There's nothing wrong with that.
BTW, in 1982, there were 1,658 D1 lacrosse players. That more than doubled to 3,489 in 2019. So on a per capita basis, the rate of 70% guys has stayed about the same.

More importantly, who cares? The position has become more specialized and a few guys have gotten really good. Did they change the height of the rim for Jordan or the width of the net for Gretzky?

As any good Hopkins engineering student can confirm, you can't find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Respectfully submitted,

Douglas C. Neidermeyer

[wgdsr]

from Paul Cantabene. he is a shade biased, but aren't we all:

As many of you know, the NCAA rules committee has released the new rule changes for the upcoming season. And as always, the face-off was a big topic for the committee.
I took my first face-off in 1984, and my last in 2006. My first face-off was just as important to me as my last face-off was. I have been able to use those experiences to help my career and teach my craft to 100's of other men. I have been a passionate supporter of the position and the rules we play by. But, what I truly have a passion for is the different ways they do it. I believe that face-off men play a unique role in the game. They have elevated the position to where they are MVP's and role models for a generation of players. They have exceptional characteristics that we wish all players had. They're tough, have high IQs, are mentally tough, and have to bring it every day. Because you are only as good as your last face-off.
These men have dedicated themselves to being better every day and putting themselves out there for all to see. They are dedicating themselves to play a position to help their team win. A job that few others would play. No other position in the modern age has there been so much of a spotlight on it time after time. But even though all that they have turned themselves into some of the most critical players in the game of lacrosse.
But, this has upset the mainstream of current college coaches, and they want to see changes. Especially a majority of the DI coaches. They have talked for years to modifications to the face-offs. With changes that could lead to the elimination of the face-off altogether, I have had many conversations about the coaches' concerns and why they think changes are needed. But, the bottom line is they don't want to spend the time coaching the position. They feel the position has too big of an emphasis on a game, and it's unfair for one person to be so dominant.
So to change this, they decided to change the rules once again, and this time I feel they are more drastic than necessary. I think the NCAA rules committee has missed the point and overstepped their bounds.
There is nowhere else in the rulebook that says how you have to play your position and how you have to hold your stick. Attackman, Midfielders, Defenseman, and goalies can hold their sticks any way they want. They can play their positions anyway they want. They can keep their sticks upside down and backward, and it's completely legal. They can play their positions with their backs to their man and can even throw the ball any way they want. There are no rules in the NCAA rule book saying you can only stand this way, and you have to hold your stick this way. All the Attack, Middies, DMen, and goalies are given the freedom to play their positions. But when it comes to face-off men, they have to conform to a certain way to play their position. And now have to throw away years of training because coaches think the face-off takes too big of a role.
This is why the NCAA rules committee changed the rules. DI coaches especially think the face-off has to be quick and not take a few seconds. They think there are too many tie-ups and wanted change. I guess I am in the minority here. Since 1984 I have never heard that there was a time limit on a face-off. That there was only a certain amount of time they were allowed to do their jobs the best they can that it had to be done in 2 seconds, 3 seconds or 10 seconds. If you watch two Face-off men battle it out 5 seconds or 20 seconds, they are giving it their all. There is nothing more that brings a bench alive more than a great face-off win. Forty teammates, who were coming over to you, slapped you on the helmet, and told you what a great job you did. These are dedicated, goal-oriented men that want to do their best every time. Could you stop trying to fix them? They have been doing a great job. We should be rewarding them for cleaning up the position, their professionalism, and leadership abilities. Don’t you think its time we ask the players for their opinion?
Stop trying to fix something that is not broken. Stop kicking the can down the street and address the real problem for a change. The sticks!!! The problem is the sticks that bend too much and are illegal after five face-offs!!! A coach told me there is a rule among officials that do not check face-offs guys sticks because they are all illegal. I said to him, that is the problem. Call the illegal sticks and hold them accountable for it. He told me there would be penalties all the time. If we can't even enforce our own stick rules, why do we also have a rules committee? Rules Committee, please address the real problem and stops being afraid of the manufacturers.
The current set of rules that have been approved could possibly make the so-called problem worse. By making everyone be a drone to what you want and take away the creative of what they want to be. It's okay to have dominant players. That's what makes lacrosse so great.
I face-off against some of the legends of the game, Cercy, Reese, Flynn, Dirrgle, Jacobs, Towers, Snider, Harrison, Berry, Suodan, Wedin, Silcott, Jenkins, Brothers, Goerrs, Lucky and a host of other outstanding men. Along with coaching dozens of outstanding face-off men!! What was great about them - They all did it different! there was no mandate how to do it.
I encourage age all athletes that face-off in college to call your college coach. And ask him if he supports these rules and why. And if he supports you to reach out to the committee on your all behalf. I urge all college face-off men to email all members of the rules committee and state your reasons for why you want the rules overturned. I encourage all high school, club, and youth face-off men to email the committee. I encourage any face-off man who has an issue with these changes to email the committee.
We have a voice to make a change!!! We have a decision to make. To stand up for what is right in our profession and ask the committee to start addressing the real problem.
I stand with all the tremendous young men who have dedicated all their time to becoming the best they can.
Paul Cantabene

The NCAA committee's email addresses:
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

[DocBarrister]

Steel Hop -- Thanks for digging in. I think you are saying that the number of guys at the very high end (winning more than 60%) has gone from "double digits" historically to 18 in 2019.

No, I am saying it has gone from 6 and increased by 300% from 2005 to 2019. From 2001 to 2019 there have been 12 individual game seasons where a player has gone over 700 FO win percentage. 9 of those seasons have been in the last 3 years. Between 2001 and 2015 it happened about once every 5 years.

I'm not sure what else needs to be shown that there is an issue that needed to be addressed because if kept going down this path, you would absolutely see some type of alternate possession occur. I don't think a large majority of people want that.

My uncle runs a fruit operation in South Carolina. I will let him know about your cherry picking skills and ask if he needs any help this summer. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I am having trouble following the bouncing ball of 60%, 70%, '01, '05, '19, odd-numbered Wednesdays, etc. Wise guy banter aside, you now seem focused on seasons where FO specialists topped 70%. There have been 18 of those in history according to the NCAA record book. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/LAX_Recor ... /D1Men.pdf Of those 18, TD and Trevor are responsible for 5. They are two of the hardest-working and most creative talents in lacrosse. I don't hear many people begrudge their outlier careers. Of the other 13 times someone has topped 70%, here are the years in which they did it:
1980, 1985, 1986, 1993, 1994, 2000, 2005, 2007, 2013, 2016, 2018 & 2019 (2x)
There have always been guys who stood out over the years. There's nothing wrong with that.
BTW, in 1982, there were 1,658 D1 lacrosse players. That more than doubled to 3,489 in 2019. So on a per capita basis, the rate of 70% guys has stayed about the same.

More importantly, who cares? The position has become more specialized and a few guys have gotten really good. Did they change the height of the rim for Jordan or the width of the net for Gretzky?

As any good Hopkins engineering student can confirm, you can't find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Respectfully submitted,

Douglas C. Neidermeyer

What a monumental battle, ladies and gentlemen!

The gritty and grinding Hopkins alumnus going against the polished and suave Yale intellectual ... ohhhhh, what a contest.

Steel Hop’s a grinder and his style isn’t pretty, but he can land those devastating body shots! Meanwhile, Can Opener does what he does best ... dancin’ and jabbin’ around the ring, while steadily poundin’ Hop’s ugly mug.

Final round coming up!!!

DocBarrister

[Can Opener]

I’ll meet Hop in any dark alley of his choosing, as long as he promises not to scratch my Philippe Patek. Daddy would be really upset.