Here we go again with the Face Off

[HopFan16]

Yup, the once Great Dane, now Bulldog, likes to call his own shots and have everything just the way he likes it (oh, but he transferred for the education) or he won't wag his tail. Yes, poor TD (Temperamental Dog) is doing a lot growling and making a fool of himself. Even I, as a non FOGO, knew that "only two moves" nonsense was a big load of krap. Go find a little squeaky ball to practice with, TD, I'm bettin' you'll figure out more than two moves if you go out in the yard and play with your stick and ball. Sulking, growling, and pouting aint gonna get you what you want....practice, practice, practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdOsrqGIigY

DMac, wow. Can’t tell from the time you posted this if you were still up and, uhm, experiencing some frontal release or just up and too tired yet to self edit. Read what you wrote about someone unhappy with a controversial rule change again there in the light of day.

Not only that but he’s telling arguably the greatest faceoff guy in history that he needs to practice more. Totally insane post but par for the course at this point.

[DMac]

Was up, good to go, little caffine, ready to roll.
https://twitter.com/td_ierlan/status/12 ... 29/photo/1
If I had started with "all due respect" like TD did then go on to say what I did, it would have been better? TD thinks the rules changes are because he was too dominant, doesn't get the part that it's respecting the game, he wants it his way. I stand by my post, wouldn't change any of it. He'll figure out that there's more than the two moves he claims (ridiculously) there is.

That's not what I'm saying at all, 16, I'm saying the rules committee recognizes that clamping and withholding the ball goes against the essense of the game and are adjusting the face off to respect that. You guys don't get that part (including TD), it's all good to have a stick that can bend, twist, and hold the ball while you clamp it to the ground and rotate for an exit path. Well, it's not. So yes, TD is going to have to practice some new techniques.

[HopFan16]

Not only that but he’s telling arguably the greatest faceoff guy in history that he needs to practice more.

Go find a little squeaky ball to practice with, TD

practice, practice, practice.

So yes, TD is going to have to practice some new techniques.

That's not what I'm saying at all, 16

Ok

[pcowlax]

Yup, the once Great Dane, now Bulldog, likes to call his own shots and have everything just the way he likes it (oh, but he transferred for the education) or he won't wag his tail. Yes, poor TD (Temperamental Dog) is doing a lot growling and making a fool of himself. Even I, as a non FOGO, knew that "only two moves" nonsense was a big load of krap. Go find a little squeaky ball to practice with, TD, I'm bettin' you'll figure out more than two moves if you go out in the yard and play with your stick and ball. Sulking, growling, and pouting aint gonna get you what you want....practice, practice, practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdOsrqGIigY

DMac, wow. Can’t tell from the time you posted this if you were still up and, uhm, experiencing some frontal release or just up and too tired yet to self edit. Read what you wrote about someone unhappy with a controversial rule change again there in the light of day.

Not only that but he’s telling arguably the greatest faceoff guy in history that he needs to practice more. Totally insane post but par for the course at this point.

I have been reading LP/Fanlax for 15 years. This was the most uncalled for, condescending, gratuitous and frankly naive post I have ever seen on the site, and that is saying something. Did TD dump your daughter? Kill your dog? “practice, practice, practice”? Are you f’ing serious? He has spent his entire life practicing so as to become literally the best in the world at something. Does it bother you that will never be as good at anything as TD Ierlan is at facing off on lacrosse (see how fun completely unnecessary person attacks are). Maybe I missed it but knees up and neutral grip was in fact legal before the changes. Funny that no one was able to use any of the apparently legion of moves it enables to beat Ierlan before. To be unhappy about having dedicated your life to perfecting a craft that is practiced a certain way and then have the rules changed just as you reach the pinnacle of practice in order to satisfy the grousing of those who babble that they “get” the essence of the game is not whining or sour grapes, it is human nature. Take your coffee to time-out for a few minutes and think about that.

[steel_hop]

It would help to understand what "problem" the rules committee is trying to solve. The FO doesn't seem to be causing any imbalance in results. As I have shared earlier, in 2019 only 5 FO specialists had a winning percentage over 2/3. Of those 5, only 2 played for a top 20 team. Of the top 10 FO guys last year, only 3 played for a top 20 team. https://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div

You can't look at stats in a vacuum. You are looking at one year extrapolating that to the entire issue. If you go back and look at past years and compare FO win %, you will see a very big trend with respect to win percentages that demonstrates why there was a change. The NCAA has stats going back to the 2001. Up until 2015, every year there were at most 2 guys that had win % of .660. I even looked at how many guys were winning FO above .600% (figuring that was a decent cross section of top FO guys) and most years it was between 6 and 8 guys had FO win percentages over .600. Some other tidbits from those years between 2001 and 2015:

• In most years, the highest FO win percentage was in the high .680.

• Prior to 2014, there had been a grand total of 3 guys that had a season where their FO win percentage was in excess of .700% - their FO win% was .712, .723 and .726, respectively. And in all 3 of those years, their team made the playoffs

• The most guys having a FO win % in excess of .600 was in 2007 when 12 guys did it

• The highest FO win percentage ever was .726 by Kevin Massa of Bryant and Bryant did go to the NCAA that year

• After 2007, when the first double digit number of guys had in excess of .600 win %, every year except 2008 and 2009 had a double digit number of guys winning FOs in excess of .600

After 2015, things start to drastically change. Whether that is a change in sticks, I don't know but the top FO win percentages took off:

• In just 4 years - 2016 through 2019, 10 times an individual player had a season with a win percentage in excess of .700 (obviously there were some guys repeating the feat over multiple years.) - remember it was only done 3 times between 2001 and 2015

• The prior high of win percentage was in 2013 of .726 - that was blown out of the water. The top win percentage is now .791 by TD in 2018

• Over the last 2 years, that old top win percentage of .726 would have finished 3rd and would be 3rd right now in the 2020 season

• Further, the high for number guys winning in excess of .600 was 18 in 2019

• Obviously 2020 is a wash but the stats were even worse, 2 guys were over .700, one guy was just below at .695 and there were 21 guys that had a FO win percentage above .600. Some of that would shake out some as the season progressed but I doubt it would have been much different than 2019

But, if you don't think there is an issue with FOs just a little digging demonstrates that last year's stat demonstrate a concerning trend line that was not heading in the right direction.

[DMac]

Not only that but he’s telling arguably the greatest faceoff guy in history that he needs to practice more.

Go find a little squeaky ball to practice with, TD

practice, practice, practice.

So yes, TD is going to have to practice some new techniques.

That's not what I'm saying at all, 16

Ok

TD
the committee has chosen to have only one stance with essentially two moves and this is somehow going to solve the issue.

So yes, go practice and figure out a third (maybe even fourth) one.
What's the "issue"?

[kramerica.inc]

Steel Hop, you are 100% corrct. This is what I've been saying for the past few year. The numbers have skewed to the "haves" and "have nots."
The moto grip and technique are so specialized now, if you havent been learnign and practicing it for years you're NOT able to compete.
It's part of the reason fogos are ticked. 1) they have to learn somethign new and 2) it will no longer be a closed shop. There will be MORE competition and their athleticism will be challenged.
I've been coaching the game and the faceoff for years. I've seen it first hand. I simply think the moto was closing off the sport and the position to new players. The position is now too reliant on the fogo controlling the draw. There is little to no use of the wing guys now. They only come into play when the fogo misses a scoop. Athleticism helps at the position, but it doesn't REALLY matter anymore. It's all mechanics. If you don't know those mechanics and you cant learn it quickly. You cant train a guy to faceoff in 6 mos and make them serviceable like you used to. That is a limiting factor in the sport and BAD for the game.

Fogos like TD shouldnt worry. The great ones who work the hardest will STILL be the best at the spot. But the new rules should help balance those overly tilted stats for the rest, and open the position to a ton more players.

[RumorMill]

Steel Hop, you are 100% corrct. This is what I've been saying for the past few year. The numbers have skewed to the "haves" and "have nots."
The moto grip and technique are so specialized now, if you havent been learnign and practicing it for years you're NOT able to compete.
It's part of the reason fogos are ticked. 1) they have to learn somethign new and 2) it will no longer be a closed shop. There will be MORE competition and their athleticism will be challenged.
I've been coaching the game and the faceoff for years. I've seen it first hand. I simply think the moto was closing off the sport and the position to new players. The position is now too reliant on the fogo controlling the draw. There is little to no use of the wing guys now. They only come into play when the fogo misses a scoop. Athleticism helps at the position, but it doesn't REALLY matter anymore. It's all mechanics. If you don't know those mechanics and you cant learn it quickly. You cant train a guy to faceoff in 6 mos and make them serviceable like you used to. That is a limiting factor in the sport and BAD for the game.

Fogos like TD shouldnt worry. The great ones who work the hardest will STILL be the best at the spot. But the new rules should help balance those overly tilted stats for the rest, and open the position to a ton more players.

Let's make Sowers play long pole for half the game... Goalies same thing, only get to play half the game then have to play a different position. Those players haven't been practicing for their specific position for very long, they should be able to adjust fine in 6 months.

[DMac]

Thanks for the lecture, pcowlax, I just feel so bad now. I recognize every bit as much as you do the work TD has put in, his dedication, and his mastering of his craft to a level that no one else has, he's just incredible. The difference we have is that essence of the game (you know, the babbling part) means a whole lot more to me than one mastering a craft that should never be seen on a lacrosse field. That's not TD's fault, it's the keepers of the game and officials fault for not enforcing the rules as written.

[steel_hop]

Steel Hop, you are 100% corrct. This is what I've been saying for the past few year. The numbers have skewed to the "haves" and "have nots."
The moto grip and technique are so specialized now, if you havent been learnign and practicing it for years you're NOT able to compete.
It's part of the reason fogos are ticked. 1) they have to learn somethign new and 2) it will no longer be a closed shop. There will be MORE competition and their athleticism will be challenged.
I've been coaching the game and the faceoff for years. I've seen it first hand. I simply think the moto was closing off the sport and the position to new players. The position is now too reliant on the fogo controlling the draw. There is little to no use of the wing guys now. They only come into play when the fogo misses a scoop. Athleticism helps at the position, but it doesn't REALLY matter anymore. It's all mechanics. If you don't know those mechanics and you cant learn it quickly. You cant train a guy to faceoff in 6 mos and make them serviceable like you used to. That is a limiting factor in the sport and BAD for the game.

Fogos like TD shouldnt worry. The great ones who work the hardest will STILL be the best at the spot. But the new rules should help balance those overly tilted stats for the rest, and open the position to a ton more players.

Let's make Sowers play long pole for half the game... Goalies same thing, only get to play half the game then have to play a different position. Those players haven't been practicing for their specific position for very long, they should be able to adjust fine in 6 months.

Sowers doesn't play with a long pole but he does play defense when riding. Statistics for goalies hasn't drastically changed over the last decade and there have been rules changes for goalies including defenseman can't attempt to block a shot, the cross dive has come back. The problem becomes the very essence of FOGOs - Face off/get off. If some of these guys couldn't face off, they wouldn't be playing.

[RumorMill]

Point I was making, most players on the field in a college game have specialized in their position for quite some time and if "made" to play another position would most likely not be on the field. Someone will now make a counter point and list any number of players that have been successful in switching positions, plus your prototypical 2 way middie, yadda, yadda, i get it. Trying to say Sowers plays "defense" because he occasionally "rides" is not the point. As I stated, put a long pole in his hands. Playing long pole affectively is quite specialized. Plus to say that Sowers is playing defense is saying he didn't score or have an assist (that's just insulting!) .

Also, to make the statement that TD, Gallagher, Arceri, Baptiste, etc, aren't athletic enough or good enough to play a different position in lacrosse is absurd. They just worked to be one of the best at their chosen position. Those adamantly opposed to the current faceoff definitely seem like they have been somehow on the losing end (personally, friend, family, favorite team) of a game because they were dominated by a "FOGO" who was much more skilled at the position... just my opinion. I'm not buying the stick technology and wrestling match arguments. Somewhere along the line someone you cared about got their butt kicked because they didn't know how to faceoff with the moto grip and knee down. All that said, I'm actually ok with the rule change. Just like the shot clock, wasn't sure about it, now I love it.

[stonewall]

I like Quints idea of just getting rid of the FOGO - but how to do it I am not sure. I proposed years ago to a coach on the rules committee that you just put the shot clock on (obviously before we had the auto shot clock) as soon as a team on offense subs a player. That would cause a problem with LSM on the wings, along with all the issues coaches had with the shot clock back then.

If we could find a simple, easy way to eliminate FOGOs I would be all for it. I saw one person suggest that after a goal, neither team can sub until after the face-off. That would get you back to the days of the all-around middie, and get rid of the specialist. Guys like Andy Kraus were better than most at facing off AND playing in the field, so you can still have your dominant midfielder at the X.

But that rule would still mess us LSM on the wing, so maybe say you can sub after a goal, but not for a face-off player: Someone on the field when the goal was scored has to take the next face-off.

disclaimer: I took face-offs for my midfield line in college, and in some games would take them for the 2nd midfield line and then come off (so a part time FOGO).

[AreaLax]

Not big fan off PLL but I do like their rule around FO:
Commit penalty and you have to sit the next one out. That makes your 2nd-string FOGO much more important

[kramerica.inc]

Point I was making, most players on the field in a college game have specialized in their position for quite some time and if "made" to play another position would most likely not be on the field. Someone will now make a counter point and list any number of players that have been successful in switching positions, plus your prototypical 2 way middie, yadda, yadda, i get it. Trying to say Sowers plays "defense" because he occasionally "rides" is not the point. As I stated, put a long pole in his hands. Playing long pole affectively is quite specialized. Plus to say that Sowers is playing defense is saying he didn't score or have an assist (that's just insulting!) .

Also, to make the statement that TD, Gallagher, Arceri, Baptiste, etc, aren't athletic enough or good enough to play a different position in lacrosse is absurd. They just worked to be one of the best at their chosen position. Those adamantly opposed to the current faceoff definitely seem like they have been somehow on the losing end (personally, friend, family, favorite team) of a game because they were dominated by a "FOGO" who was much more skilled at the position... just my opinion. I'm not buying the stick technology and wrestling match arguments. Somewhere along the line someone you cared about got their butt kicked because they didn't know how to faceoff with the moto grip and knee down. All that said, I'm actually ok with the rule change. Just like the shot clock, wasn't sure about it, now I love it.

I'm making the opposite argument. Guys like TD, Gallagher, Arceri, Baptiste will still dominate. The most athletic and hardest working will STILL be among the elite. But the numbers will come a little bit back to earth, and you're going to open the fogo position to way more midfielders who have NOT been practicing the Moto grip since 2nd grade. More will be willing to try it. And wings will play more of a role in the faceoff instead of JUST the FOGOS. That's a very good thing for the entertainment value and fun of the game and the overall growth of lacrosse.

[kramerica.inc]

Not big fan off PLL but I do like their rule around FO:
Commit penalty and you have to sit the next one out. That makes your 2nd-string FOGO much more important

It does make them more important, but not as much as you'd think. It also further skews the winning percentages in favor of the teams with the best #1, elite FOGOs. The best FOGO aren't the ones looking to jump early or get an advantage at the X gettign penalties. It's the guys who are not elite tier.

[RumorMill]

Steel Hop, you are 100% corrct. This is what I've been saying for the past few year. The numbers have skewed to the "haves" and "have nots."
The moto grip and technique are so specialized now, if you havent been learnign and practicing it for years you're NOT able to compete.
It's part of the reason fogos are ticked. 1) they have to learn somethign new and 2) it will no longer be a closed shop. There will be MORE competition and their athleticism will be challenged.
I've been coaching the game and the faceoff for years. I've seen it first hand. I simply think the moto was closing off the sport and the position to new players. The position is now too reliant on the fogo controlling the draw. There is little to no use of the wing guys now. They only come into play when the fogo misses a scoop. Athleticism helps at the position, but it doesn't REALLY matter anymore. It's all mechanics. If you don't know those mechanics and you cant learn it quickly. You cant train a guy to faceoff in 6 mos and make them serviceable like you used to. That is a limiting factor in the sport and BAD for the game.

Fogos like TD shouldnt worry. The great ones who work the hardest will STILL be the best at the spot. But the new rules should help balance those overly tilted stats for the rest, and open the position to a ton more players.

Let's make Sowers play long pole for half the game... Goalies same thing, only get to play half the game then have to play a different position. Those players haven't been practicing for their specific position for very long, they should be able to adjust fine in 6 months.

Sowers doesn't play with a long pole but he does play defense when riding. Statistics for goalies hasn't drastically changed over the last decade and there have been rules changes for goalies including defenseman can't attempt to block a shot, the cross dive has come back. The problem becomes the very essence of FOGOs - Face off/get off. If some of these guys couldn't face off, they wouldn't be playing.

I was referring to this statement about "they wouldn't be playing".

And don't take any of my comments regarding Sowers the wrong way. I love watching him play, am glad he is a "specialist" at attack and believe he is definitely good enough, if called on, to play midfield and he would still excel... but probably not at close D with a long pole. As I am fine with the current (or past as it may be) faceoff, I'm fine with players who specialize at every position! And with that said, one of my favorite players to watch is Peter Dearth because he can get it done on both ends of the field... and not opposed to the new faceoff rules either and enjoyed the faceoff as it was... just a fan of the game I guess . All good.

[nrthcrosslax]

Steel Hop, you are 100% corrct. This is what I've been saying for the past few year. The numbers have skewed to the "haves" and "have nots."
The moto grip and technique are so specialized now, if you havent been learnign and practicing it for years you're NOT able to compete.
It's part of the reason fogos are ticked. 1) they have to learn somethign new and 2) it will no longer be a closed shop. There will be MORE competition and their athleticism will be challenged.
I've been coaching the game and the faceoff for years. I've seen it first hand. I simply think the moto was closing off the sport and the position to new players. The position is now too reliant on the fogo controlling the draw. There is little to no use of the wing guys now. They only come into play when the fogo misses a scoop. Athleticism helps at the position, but it doesn't REALLY matter anymore. It's all mechanics. If you don't know those mechanics and you cant learn it quickly. You cant train a guy to faceoff in 6 mos and make them serviceable like you used to. That is a limiting factor in the sport and BAD for the game.

Fogos like TD shouldnt worry. The great ones who work the hardest will STILL be the best at the spot. But the new rules should help balance those overly tilted stats for the rest, and open the position to a ton more players.

I don't know much about the faceoff technique so forgive me if I am not understanding correctly. Is the moto grip/knee down something fairly new that a certain segment of FO guys adopted? If it provided such an advantage wouldn't everyone be using it? Only the early adopters are proficient at it?

[kramerica.inc]

Check out the first 3-4 pages of this thread. It started around the year 2000 with Cantabene. But in just recent years, the stance progressed to the point of starting with 1 knee on the ground and full bodyweight on stick heads, essentially fully engulfing the ball and witholding it from play. It was not always a quick clamp and out. If you don't win that intial clamp, it's not happening. No more scrums and little to no wing play.

[RumorMill]

If you don't win that intial clamp, it's not happening. No more scrums and little to no wing play.

This is what drives me crazy as well. This is completely inaccurate. You haven't seen the "FOGO" who wins the clamp, lose the faceoff (possession)? I see it all the time... specifically because of wing play. Likewise, how about the times they get into a "wrestling" match, someone wins the clamp, are you saying the wings don't come into play then? Man oh man...

[bearlaxfan]

Q's idea in IL is interesting. All dressed players (I assume SS middies, he doesn't say that) must take a draw in coach's chosen order (like a batting order), no 2nd try until the list is completed. If the next up is in the box or hurt, Q says that team forfeits that fo. Maybe just go to next name instead...