Here we go again with the Face Off

[RumorMill]

If the rumors are true, and it's just no knee down and no moto grip, you still end up with clamps as well as pinch and pops (unless they change the rules regarding this as well). It essentially will drastically reduce what some on here call the "wrestling" match. Those that complain about the "wrestling" match in the current face-off (and those that have made incorrect statements regarding it) seem to not understand or don't want to understand anything about how the current face-off is practiced (IMO). For me, when two face-off specialists are battling for possession of the ball, it's no different than two top tennis pros in a drawn out volley... each waiting for the window of opportunity or for their opponent to make a mistake... sorry, I digress. I've been an advocate of the current face-off, if the rules change I look forward to seeing how the players adjust. Hope everyone is well!

[DMac]

Can only speak for myself, RM. I understand what's going on in the battle of the X which is why I don't believe it should be happening. I respect those who have mastered the skill, the wrestling, and the intricacies of what goes on in trenches while the wrestling/doing the dance goes in circles. In a tennis match the ball will always be free, it will never be cradled or held (other than the serve). In a lacrosse game the ball should always be free, and only cradled, never held, too. You'll lose the point in tennis if you break those rules, and in lacrosse you're supposed to lose the ball if you break those rules. It's not a matter of lack of respect or apprectiation of what FOGOs do, it's a matter of lack of respect and appreciation for the keepers of lacrosse to allow them to do what they do. When the whistle blows, the FOGO's got to be moving the ball away from that X immediately....however he does that is fine.

[xxxxxxx]

If the rumors are true, and it's just no knee down and no moto grip, you still end up with clamps as well as pinch and pops (unless they change the rules regarding this as well). It essentially will drastically reduce what some on here call the "wrestling" match. Those that complain about the "wrestling" match in the current face-off (and those that have made incorrect statements regarding it) seem to not understand or don't want to understand anything about how the current face-off is practiced (IMO). For me, when two face-off specialists are battling for possession of the ball, it's no different than two top tennis pros in a drawn out volley... each waiting for the window of opportunity or for their opponent to make a mistake... sorry, I digress. I've been an advocate of the current face-off, if the rules change I look forward to seeing how the players adjust. Hope everyone is well!

The rumors are true the moto grip and knee down are history. It will be an adjustment period, players will adapt and you will still have dominant guys, it just might be different guys.

[RumorMill]

Can only speak for myself, RM. I understand what's going on in the battle of the X which is why I don't believe it should be happening. I respect those who have mastered the skill, the wrestling, and the intricacies of what goes on in trenches while the wrestling/doing the dance goes in circles. In a tennis match the ball will always be free, it will never be cradled or held (other than the serve). In a lacrosse game the ball should always be free, and only cradled, never held, too. You'll lose the point in tennis if you break those rules, and in lacrosse you're supposed to lose the ball if you break those rules. It's not a matter of lack of respect or apprectiation of what FOGOs do, it's a matter of lack of respect and appreciation for the keepers of lacrosse to allow them to do what they do. When the whistle blows, the FOGO's got to be moving the ball away from that X immediately....however he does that is fine.

I'll try to make this my last post on the subject, but no promises. DMac! I appreciate your perspective, obviously don't agree with it. A big part of my disagreement is exactly what you're referring to above. When the face-off specialists are doing their "wrestling" that is a "free" ball. Neither has possession. As some have advocated, you could argue to change the rules so wingers can make contact with the "fogos" (don't like using that term but will for ease) immediately, but that will open up a whole different can of worms (think goon in hockey). You hit my "fogo" and I'll hit you harder, etc. Trust me when I tell you, face-off specialists want to be out of the "X" with the ball as fast as they can! And if their winger is wide open (i.e. the opposing wing presents no challenge to getting a ground ball) the "fogo" will more often rake or pop the ball right to them (if they have clean possession). That's the whole point. There is so much more that goes into the current face-off than you're giving these guys credit for. You're so focused on what you call "withholding" (and I will agree, a lot of the refs are very lenient with the rules definition), that you're not seeing the skill and beauty in the position and the strategy for every exit, or the strategy that goes into the wrestling match... etc. Let's take TD for example (because it's easy since he wins more than he loses). Why do some of his face-offs result in fast breaks? why does he exit backwards sometimes? Why does he pitch it to his wing sometimes? Why does he get in a wrestling match sometimes? Why does he lose sometimes? There is so much more to the current face-off (including the wing play) than you're giving it credit for. I have issues with your argument, because it sounds like you just want a 50/50 scrum every time. But that's the beauty of the argument, everyone has their personal opinion. Personally, I get frustrated with that 50/50 ground ball where it gets batted around 3 times, someone scoops it up to only have their stick slammed by a tomahawk check, to then someone calling "man" and clearing someone out, for the ball to only be kicked again and the scrum restarted, rinse, repeat, oh finally we have a clean possession. FYI, I actually don't mind that either, just making a point. And i do understand you're more opposed to the current lacrosse head technology that allows the "fogos" to pinch and carry the ball out. But arguing about the current equipment technology is not something I want to get into. That affects every position on the field. Anyhow, sounds like we might be adjusting to new rules soon and this argument can take a different direction. Look forward to being able to get the kids back out on the field sometime soon.

[DMac]

You sell me a little short on not understanding what's going on with that battle, RM. While I might never have done it (in a game), it's not as if it's all that hard to see and figure out what's happening in there. Yes, it's stick technology that is truly the biggest issue, and yes, it's refs being too lenient with the hold call. Clamp and rake, as is written in the rules already, is the answer. Enforce those rules and you can get down on one knee, use a moto grip, and the ball will still be moving from the X immediately (like in the girl's game).
While I understand that neither FOGO has possession/control of the ball during these battles, it's a stretch to say that's a free ball. As you noted, the wings should be able to get in there as well as hit those boys (as they could when I first started playing) if it's a free ball.
So, the rules are yet again changed and we'll move on from here.

[Surfs_Up]

TD Ierland posted his opinion on Twitter. He is obviously against it.

The battle that takes place with moto grip is a chess match, and may start with one and transfer to the other. Is takes technique and skill

The fast hands guys on one knee can get a ball in under one second.

Since this is a test for fall I hope the coaches realize this is a mistake a pull back.

[ALaudico7]

Not sure if the rule changes will have the desired impact necessarily. Greg Gurenlian posted on twitter that the Faceoff Academy has been teaching their athletes the standing neutral grip all along. Depending on how much those athletes have practiced it, it could make a big divide between them and the second tier. Also my understanding is that they're trying it in Fallball (if there is one) before finalizing it. It'll be interesting to see more responses in the coming weeks and in Fallball.

[molo]

So no more knee pad long johns?

[CarolinaLax Dad]

My son called me this afternoon telling about the rule change. He is a D2 fogo and he said I will adjust. He said the good ones with fast hands will still be good. He actually likes the idea of standing up - less wear on your knees.
For me in the over 40 league its great because I stopped going to a knee about a year ago- it's too hard on my body. I have been doing this for a long time - pre moto grip and super flexible heads. I liked the progression to the modern day face-off - I actually believe that the really good fogo's are better lacrosse players than some are given credit. The game is not going back to the "old game" of the '90s. And I will continue to say that folks that dont take face-offs and havent taken them "dont get it". When your grinding you dont have the ball and your not withholding it. And pinch and pop is true art because it doesn't happen like the Nike CEO 2 video. Real change would have been to move the wings in closer and enforce the withholding rule when the guy does withhold the ball. I am not sure about hitting a FOGO with a running start from the wing - but if he is standing there will be more contact if someone doesn't get control of the ball quickly. I do believe you will still see the fogo pop it out and pick up or flip up to himself (which by the way is harder than it looks). And they will adjust - kids are better athletes now.

[Surfs_Up]

There’s plenty of YouTube videos of college guys going SNG post 6 years ago plus. It’s scrummy, and the ball gets batted around a lot and there are less counters and technique taking place at the X. Whatever the rules committee is trying to do, I don’t think it will make for a better experience on the field and may reduce the excitement of the fast breaks.

I question if face off guys will be as valued under this situation. I suspect it is harder to go 70 percent with the new rule, but I could be wrong. I do think the change will result in more athletic speedy guys that can pick up ground balls and run vs big heavy guys with fast hands.

[CarolinaLax Dad]

After I posted on this - I remembered a kid that I knew when we lived in Darien. He was a stud d pole and face-off guy at Darien HS - didnt call them Fogo's then. He went on to play a stellar career at Loyola. He was a 3x all american and yes he took face-offs and went 70%, while being the close d guy to play John Grant jr or one of the Powells. If you look up Jamie Hanford you will see that at one time he held the face- off record for the MLL and maybe the NLL.

He used a pole like it was a short stick for a face-off and he did control the ball. When he was taking face- offs not much of a scrum. However, I do believe kids will adapt and maybe the earlier poster was correct in that the bigger- slower footed guys may not fair as well. However, I wouldn't call any of the current top face-off guys slow footed. I am hoping that we see more fast breaks and less scrums for ground balls. A scrum for a ground ball at the x is not as exciting as the guy popping the ball and scooping it up on the move for a fast break. If he is better why try manage the game to take away being better?

[wgdsr]

After I posted on this - I remembered a kid that I knew when we lived in Darien. He was a stud d pole and face-off guy at Darien HS - didnt call them Fogo's then. He went on to play a stellar career at Loyola. He was a 3x all american and yes he took face-offs and went 70%, while being the close d guy to play John Grant jr or one of the Powells. If you look up Jamie Hanford you will see that at one time he held the face- off record for the MLL and maybe the NLL.

He used a pole like it was a short stick for a face-off and he did control the ball. When he was taking face- offs not much of a scrum. However, I do believe kids will adapt and maybe the earlier poster was correct in that the bigger- slower footed guys may not fair as well. However, I wouldn't call any of the current top face-off guys slow footed. I am hoping that we see more fast breaks and less scrums for ground balls. A scrum for a ground ball at the x is not as exciting as the guy popping the ball and scooping it up on the move for a fast break. If he is better why try manage the game to take away being better?

yeah, you should try going against hanford up top when he's 8 or 9 years your junior. jamie could do everything.

[Can Opener]

It would help to understand what "problem" the rules committee is trying to solve. The FO doesn't seem to be causing any imbalance in results. As I have shared earlier, in 2019 only 5 FO specialists had a winning percentage over 2/3. Of those 5, only 2 played for a top 20 team. Of the top 10 FO guys last year, only 3 played for a top 20 team. https://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div

While it's unclear what problem the rules committee is trying to solve, our committee of the keyboards seems to be focused on two specific areas:
1. They don't like what appears to be a long tie-up due to a FO specialist clamping the ball and withholding it
2. They don't like the "unnatural" flex of the newer sticks

On the first point, there is already a rule on the books that is very clear. The relevant points from the 2020 NCAA rule book are below. I like that the rules committee has made this a point of emphasis, but there is no rule change required to address Problem 1.

10. A violation will be called if a player picks up and carries the ball on the back of his stick. It is still legal to clamp the ball with the back of the stick, but it must be moved, raked or directed immediately. Immediately is defined as within one step.
11. A player may not trap the ball with his crosse longer than necessary for him to control the ball and pick it up with one continuous motion. A player may not withhold the ball from play in any other manner.

On Problem 2, the rules committee has not made any changes in this area. The sticks will still be extremely flexible and able to pinch, pop and drive traditionalists crazy. For opponents of the new stick technology, this rule change ain't gonna scratch your itch. I will say that I am sympathetic to the idea that something just doesn't feel right about how these sticks perform. It's like Brokeback Mountain -- great movie and I enjoyed it, but parts are just a little weird to me. (I realize I am now disqualified from coaching a NESCAC team.) I think my friends looking for changes on stick technology will still be looking next spring. On balance, I still favor the current technology because it adds some exciting elements and strategies to the FO X.

As for unleashing the wings to jack up FO specialists who have their heads down -- bad idea. Similar concept to protecting goalies.

DMac -- I think I am reiterating a few of your points in a different way. You know I love your literary genius, but just like my wife and I can't agree on whether silverware goes in the dishwasher tines up or tines down, I don't think we will fully agree on this one.

[HU34]

I like the wrestling match. The long drawn out face offs are a fun battle to watch. Am I alone on this?

[DMac]

Can Opener wrote
but just like my wife and I can't agree on whether silverware goes in the dishwasher tines up or tines down, I don't think we will fully agree on this one.

Gotta go with tines up, let the dirty water run down and off the handle part of the untensil rather than the part going into your mouth (which isn't to say I'd have a problem with it either way). Hell, truth be told, I'd pick the fork up off the ground, rub it off a little and use it if I needed one.

I really don't see where we much disagree on anything here. Enforce the rules, done deal.
I know the sticks aren't going anywhere and it is what it is, but anytime the ball is being withheld (regardless of how) or clamped I feel it goes against the essence of the game and shouldn't be allowed. The video that was posted earlier makes me sick, that stuff just shouldn't be happening, but I get that a FOGO would get excited about it as that's what they've been allowed and taught what to do. When you're picking the ball up like you would with your finger and thumb (then have to shake the stick to release it), I'm always going to have a problem with that. Not that I figure anyone really cares what I think, but that's the way I feel about it.

Got a question: If the shaft of a players stick gets bent, say 20 degrees or so, not broken, is he allowed to go on playing with that or does he have to get off the field with it? I'm guessing the answer is that he can't play with that stick. I then have to ask why a player is still allowed to play with a stick when the head has been bent to the point that it's mishaped and pretty much unuseable (which really puts to GO in FOGO)?

[Oldbarndog]

I like the wrestling match. The long drawn out face offs are a fun battle to watch. Am I alone on this?

Probably not. IMHO: I enjoy the battle, just not the often inordinate amount of time it can take to put the ball in play. As I have said before, I think we need to take a look at how it's done in box. The pace of play rule changes are creating a more enjoyable game to watch. As an "ORFG"; Old, Retired Faceoff Guy I think anything that can return lacrosse to the Fastest Game on Foot is a good thing.

[LaxPundit07]

First glance-this will bring back the athletic faceoff guy that can play both sides of the ball and stay on the field. Perhaps we won’t need to wait around for the FOGO to hobble off the field and get an offensive middie on. Maybe it speeds up the game?

[Njlaxx11]

First glance-this will bring back the athletic faceoff guy that can play both sides of the ball and stay on the field. Perhaps we won’t need to wait around for the FOGO to hobble off the field and get an offensive middie on. Maybe it speeds up the game?

how much more do they need to speed the game up? they added the shot clock to speed it up - why mess with the face off?

[spartanslynx]

I like a long faceoff when the players are rotating, battling to get under the other players' stick and doing everything to get controll of the ball.

But the most common reason for a long faceoff is that the players get 50/50 of the ball and lock-up in a stalemate. Players move their weight back and wait. Then the first player to try to take it out losses

---
As mentioned before we can still have lock-ups with this. Clamping is allowed and even tho it is hard to clamp it is hard for both players

[DMac]

Eureka!!!!!!!!!!!!! The answer is in the woods, right where it's always been.
Bend, twist, pinch n pop wif dat bitsh, boyz!

JFTR, I've been using that stick quite a bit lately.
Everything about it feels oh so right. Such nice
balance and oh sooooo smooth.
No Tupperware for me, please.