Peter Brown wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 11:04 am
If there is one article you should read about how to re-open an economy and why you should, read this Foreign Affairs article about the Swedish way and why ultimately it will prove to be the most successful.
It is crazy that the US outside of New York continues to keep schools closed.
And, just to be sure, Foreign Affairs isn't exactly MAGA-Central.
Petey -- A few things to point out about Sweden's experience (good and bad):
1. They admit they really screwed the pooch on protecting old folks. The size of their dead body pile proves that.
2. They specifically are NOT trying the herd immunity thing. Per their main Covid guy Tegnell:
We are trying to keep transmission rates at a level that the Stockholm health system can sustain. So far that has worked out. We are not calculating herd immunity in this. We believe herd immunity will of course help us in the long run, and we are discussing that, but it's not like we are actively trying to achieve it as has been made out (by the press and some scientists).
3. They are probably right that you could have kept grade schools open. We certainly should have the goal of re-opening USA grade schools in the fall. The risks involved with grade schools are very low and distance learning is tough with youngsters.
4. But just like us, they closed down all HSs and colleges (which remain closed). Higher risks there, and distance learning works better at those levels. Very much TBD what will happen to upper schools in the fall (in USA and also in Sweden).
5. They actually are pretty shut down, despite what the press (especially the rightie press) says. They are just doing it more through voluntary compliance rather than mandates. Their economy is still taking a very big hit.
6. They are healthier than the USA is -- that makes their plan work better than if it were tried here. We have a much bigger percentage of deaths among middle agers and younger seniors due to that. 85+% of Sweden deaths are for 80+ years old.
7. They have lower pop density and more single person households than USA -- that makes their plan work better than if it were tried here.
8. They are a high trust society. So it is politically viable for them to take the higher death count. We are a low trust society -- so it would be hard for us to stick with a plan like they are.
9. Their plan isn't working well on their immigrant and lower SES populations. We have that problem too.
10. It is only halftime. TBD how things work in the rest of the game.
I mean, there's a photo that leads the article with a scene from a Stockholm restaurant from April 20th and it looks crowded to me... But that's immaterial.
The following however is, and sort of refutes your thesis on Swedish herd immunity:
Swedish authorities have not officially declared a goal of reaching herd immunity, which most scientists believe is achieved when more than 60 percent of the population has had the virus. But augmenting immunity is no doubt part of the government’s broader strategy—or at least a likely consequence of keeping schools, restaurants, and most businesses open. Anders Tegnell, the chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency, has projected that the city of Stockholm could reach herd immunity as early as this month. Based on updated behavioral assumptions (social-distancing norms are changing how Swedes behave), the Stockholm University mathematician Tom Britton has calculated that 40 percent immunity in the capital could be enough to stop the virus’s spread there and that this could happen by mid-June.
Actually, it was the wrong call, but with good intentions and he indeed was accurate about cloth masks not providing the wearer much protection. The benefit is to reduce spread by the wearer, not to protect them sufficiently.
It was absolutely the wrong call. Their messaging was an epic fail because they conflated two things that were easily separated.
What Fauci and the SG meant/said:
We need to keep the medical masks for the medical workers. So no one else should try to get/wear masks.
What they eventually said and should have said initially:
We need to keep the medical masks for the medical workers. So everyone else should wear a non-medical face covering. You all have T-shirts, bandanas and pillow cases. Those all work great.
Peter Brown wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 11:04 am
If there is one article you should read about how to re-open an economy and why you should, read this Foreign Affairs article about the Swedish way and why ultimately it will prove to be the most successful.
It is crazy that the US outside of New York continues to keep schools closed.
And, just to be sure, Foreign Affairs isn't exactly MAGA-Central.
Petey -- A few things to point out about Sweden's experience (good and bad):
1. They admit they really screwed the pooch on protecting old folks. The size of their dead body pile proves that.
2. They specifically are NOT trying the herd immunity thing. Per their main Covid guy Tegnell:
We are trying to keep transmission rates at a level that the Stockholm health system can sustain. So far that has worked out. We are not calculating herd immunity in this. We believe herd immunity will of course help us in the long run, and we are discussing that, but it's not like we are actively trying to achieve it as has been made out (by the press and some scientists).
3. They are probably right that you could have kept grade schools open. We certainly should have the goal of re-opening USA grade schools in the fall. The risks involved with grade schools are very low and distance learning is tough with youngsters.
4. But just like us, they closed down all HSs and colleges (which remain closed). Higher risks there, and distance learning works better at those levels. Very much TBD what will happen to upper schools in the fall (in USA and also in Sweden).
5. They actually are pretty shut down, despite what the press (especially the rightie press) says. They are just doing it more through voluntary compliance rather than mandates. Their economy is still taking a very big hit.
6. They are healthier than the USA is -- that makes their plan work better than if it were tried here. We have a much bigger percentage of deaths among middle agers and younger seniors due to that. 85+% of Sweden deaths are for 80+ years old.
7. They have lower pop density and more single person households than USA -- that makes their plan work better than if it were tried here.
8. They are a high trust society. So it is politically viable for them to take the higher death count. We are a low trust society -- so it would be hard for us to stick with a plan like they are.
9. Their plan isn't working well on their immigrant and lower SES populations. We have that problem too.
10. It is only halftime. TBD how things work in the rest of the game.
The Swedish economy has continued to suffer. Just marginally better than its neighbors.
Kismet wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 2:24 pm
Today's tweet of the day from actor, George Takei (Lt. Sulu from Starship Enterprise), American-born Japanese American citizen who makes an appropriate point on liberty and freedom having been interned in a camp during World War II
George Takei
@GeorgeTakei
·
16h
"I didn't spend my childhood in barbed wire enclosed internment camps so I could listen to grown adults today cry oppression because they have to wear a mask at Costco."
He has a point, don't ya think?
I wonder if George Takei understands that were it not for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor he never would have been interred anywhere. I mean no disrespect to good ole George but outside of it being a good idea for all of us to wear masks, I could not care less about what George thinks about anything.
Wrong, wrong, WRONG.
I think highly of FDR, but his decision to implement the internment of Japanese Americans was based solely on racism.
Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, and we didn’t put German or Italian Americans in prison camps.
DocBarrister
Factually wrong, again, Doc. We did put Germans and Italians in camps. And Many others. And it was not at a limited number or based upon any one "reason" like racism. We also moved them further inland away from coasts.
The diverse makeup of Justice Department detainees classified by as "Germans" or "Italians" reveals that other factors trumped ethnicity, residency, and citizenship as grounds for internment. On the U.S. mainland, refugees and naturalized citizens from countries annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany also came under suspicion, resulting in the confinement of Austrians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians. [17] Those apprehended in the Territory of Hawai'i included a handful of Jewish refugees and people of Danish, Finnish, Irish, and Norwegian descent. Several of Hawai'i's Caucasian detainees had even served in the U.S. Armed Forces. [18] The scope of the American confinement program also extended overseas, with FBI agents compiling lists of allegedly dangerous individuals of German, Italian, and Japanese descent residing throughout Latin America. Pressure from the U.S. State Department resulted in the apprehension and deportation of 4,058 ethnic Germans and 288 ethnic Italians (along with 2,264 people of Japanese ancestry) from nineteen different Latin American countries to the United States for the purposes of prisoner exchanges with Axis nations or continued confinement on the U.S. mainland. [19] The ranks of these detainees included large numbers of Jewish refugees from Nazi-controlled Europe, with 250 Jews detained in the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone alone. [20]
Federal authorities concentrated this eclectic and multinational mix of enemy aliens in at least twenty-one different Justice Department and Army camps far removed from coastal areas, typically in facilities that also held Japanese detainees. [21] Population totals were extremely fluid as prisoners were transferred between camps or repatriated to their native countries. The Justice Department's Crystal City site, which served as a family camp, reached a peak population of 3,374 prisoners, including 997 ethnic Germans and six ethnic Italians–many coming from Latin America. [22] 2,150 ethnic Germans—both civilian residents and merchant seamen—passed through the Justice Department camp at Fort Lincoln, making this Bismarck, North Dakota, facility one of the chief confinement sites for German detainees. [23] Other camps featuring significant ethnic German or Italian populations included the aforementioned Ft. Stanton and Ft. Missoula sites, as well as Camp Kenedy , Texas, and Camp Forrest , Tennessee.
Just stop with the nonsense. You’re not actually comparing that to the racist mass internment of Japanese Americans, are you?
DocBarrister
No, READ Doc. This FanLax "character" you've created is very shallow. He's nothing more than a race baiter. And that won't get you far here, where we're trying to talk about things at a little depth. Break the shackles of your mind. There's much more to life than screaming "racism!" at every turn. For hating Trump so much, you are turning into him with your lack of reading, and your shallow, overly-simplistic views on things.
At the risk of catching mud from both sides, let me try to help.
You aren't suggesting an equivalency between the internment of all Japanese Americans (except those actually serving in the military, but including their families) simply because of their country of origin with the much more selective confinement of others, right?
You were just pointing out that indeed some Germans and Italians and others, allegedly dangerous, were confined. But not all, not across the board based on country of origin, right?
And, it's quite likely that the confinement of those Germans etc was well beyond any actually dangerous as well.
The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries, but it's not that no one was treated as dangerous from those countries too.
Do I have that right?
"The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries"
I am guessing that Pearl Harbor may have had something to do with why the Japanese were treated differently. It is easy to pass judgement on the mood of the country almost 80 years later. A lot of Americans were angry and ticked off at all Japanese. It was wrong how we acted but the national mood about all Japanese centered around mistrust and resentment. America saw a similar attitude against all Muslims after 9/11.
Certainly true.
It doesn't justify it, but does explain it.
Race and other ways to label the Other are easy mechanisms to deal with fear and anger.
Need to be resisted in the moment, not just decades later.
I agree with everything you are saying. You can't ignore what the country felt after Pearl Harbor. 80 years ago we were not a forgiving and understanding country. We were an angry nation looking for retribution in blood.
Immediately after Pearl Harbor, there were legitimate fears of Japanese attacks on the US west coast. Our Pac Fleet was decimated at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had just demonstrated the most successful carrier strike in history. ...& besides, the USA was a deplorable bunch of racists then, just as we are now.
some articles on antigen tests, rapid and then maybe eventually take-at-home testing. at least the hope for it all: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/where-i ... s-say.html
does ramping mean 100s of millions of tests are coming down the line? or dozens?
no doubt in future weeks and months we'll get a better feel for how much capacity and accuracy we can expect. i'd guess with over 100 companies vying to get into the market for it, we'll see a number of headlines about it and see who they can produce, maybe by fall? increasing lab capacity at some unheard of rate is i guess possible, but having something that can be done at the home or at the business seems pretty crucial.
wgdsr wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 4:39 pm
some articles on antigen tests, rapid and then maybe eventually take-at-home testing. at least the hope for it all: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/where-i ... s-say.html
does ramping mean 100s of millions of tests are coming down the line? or dozens?
no doubt in future weeks and months we'll get a better feel for how much capacity and accuracy we can expect. i'd guess with over 100 companies vying to get into the market for it, we'll see a number of headlines about it and see who they can produce, maybe by fall? increasing lab capacity at some unheard of rate is i guess possible, but having something that can be done at the home or at the business seems pretty crucial.
Hopefully using one test to test multiple people will have some legs. It’s a way to leverage capacity.
Antigen testing still has at least two significant hurdles to get over in addition to wide-spread availability.
First, scientists need to determine whether someone who has had Covid-19 is immune from contracting the disease again and, if so, for how long. Most scientists think there will be immunity, but that hasn't been scientifically proved yet. In addition to the "how long" variable, there is a question about whether the severity of the patient's initial exposure impacts the extent and duration of immunity. In the horror scenario, the public comes to believe they'll have immunity once they've successfully recovered only to later find out they have no real immunity at all.
Second, the tests being used have to be highly accurate. That isn't currently the case, at least for some significant number of them. Right now it's the Wild Wild West out there in terms of tests. Like the auto industry in the 20s or the tech industry in the 90s. Lots and lots of companies making tests. The FDA has allowed tests to go to market even though the FDA hasn't approved them as long as the manufacturer says they'll work. I understand why the FDA did this. I just hope this doesn't prove to have been a dumb decision in retrospect.
Hopefully we can move at lightening speed on both issues, but we aren't there yet.
Peter Brown wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 11:04 am
If there is one article you should read about how to re-open an economy and why you should, read this Foreign Affairs article about the Swedish way and why ultimately it will prove to be the most successful.
It is crazy that the US outside of New York continues to keep schools closed.
And, just to be sure, Foreign Affairs isn't exactly MAGA-Central.
Petey -- A few things to point out about Sweden's experience (good and bad):
1. They admit they really screwed the pooch on protecting old folks. The size of their dead body pile proves that.
2. They specifically are NOT trying the herd immunity thing. Per their main Covid guy Tegnell:
We are trying to keep transmission rates at a level that the Stockholm health system can sustain. So far that has worked out. We are not calculating herd immunity in this. We believe herd immunity will of course help us in the long run, and we are discussing that, but it's not like we are actively trying to achieve it as has been made out (by the press and some scientists).
3. They are probably right that you could have kept grade schools open. We certainly should have the goal of re-opening USA grade schools in the fall. The risks involved with grade schools are very low and distance learning is tough with youngsters.
4. But just like us, they closed down all HSs and colleges (which remain closed). Higher risks there, and distance learning works better at those levels. Very much TBD what will happen to upper schools in the fall (in USA and also in Sweden).
5. They actually are pretty shut down, despite what the press (especially the rightie press) says. They are just doing it more through voluntary compliance rather than mandates. Their economy is still taking a very big hit.
6. They are healthier than the USA is -- that makes their plan work better than if it were tried here. We have a much bigger percentage of deaths among middle agers and younger seniors due to that. 85+% of Sweden deaths are for 80+ years old.
7. They have lower pop density and more single person households than USA -- that makes their plan work better than if it were tried here.
8. They are a high trust society. So it is politically viable for them to take the higher death count. We are a low trust society -- so it would be hard for us to stick with a plan like they are.
9. Their plan isn't working well on their immigrant and lower SES populations. We have that problem too.
10. It is only halftime. TBD how things work in the rest of the game.
Good post.
In addition to the above, I suspect Sweden got pretty lucky in terms of seeding. Certainly compared to the areas that were unlucky: Wuhan, N. Italy, Spain, Metro NYC.
Nevertheless, Sweden's experience would have been much better, closer to their Scandinavian neighbors, had they adopted the practices most of the world has employed. Sweden's cases/1 m and deaths/1 m are 2700 and 328, compared to Finland (1083/50), Norway (1504/42), and Denmark (1828/91).
njbill wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 5:42 pm
Antigen testing still has at least two significant hurdles to get over in addition to wide-spread availability.
First, scientists need to determine whether someone who has had Covid-19 is immune from contracting the disease again and, if so, for how long. Most scientists think there will be immunity, but that hasn't been scientifically proved yet. In addition to the "how long" variable, there is a question about whether the severity of the patient's initial exposure impacts the extent and duration of immunity. In the horror scenario, the public comes to believe they'll have immunity once they've successfully recovered only to later find out they have no real immunity at all.
Second, the tests being used have to be highly accurate. That isn't currently the case, at least for some significant number of them. Right now it's the Wild Wild West out there in terms of tests. Like the auto industry in the 20s or the tech industry in the 90s. Lots and lots of companies making tests. The FDA has allowed tests to go to market even though the FDA hasn't approved them as long as the manufacturer says they'll work. I understand why the FDA did this. I just hope this doesn't prove to have been a dumb decision in retrospect.
Hopefully we can move at lightening speed on both issues, but we aren't there yet.
yes, the 2nd link i threw up has a link within it to the fda reversing course on their original "approval" on may 4th and those items.
some on the latter:
The new policy also provides performance threshold recommendations for specificity and sensitivity for all serology test developers.
The FDA had to put flexible regulations in place for serology test developers early in the pandemic given the nature of the public health emergency, according to two agency officials. In an article published online today, Anand Shah, deputy commissioner for medical and scientific affairs, and Jeff Shuren, director of the Center for Devices and Radiological Health, said these tests were not meant to be used as the sole basis for a diagnosis.
“However, flexibility never meant we would allow fraud,” they said. “We unfortunately see unscrupulous actors marketing fraudulent test kits and using the pandemic as an opportunity to take advantage of Americans’ anxiety.”
The agency also plans to release the results of National Cancer Institute (NCI) reports on NCI’s efforts to validate 13 antibody tests, according to Shah and Shuren. The FDA can use the NCI data to determine whether to authorize a test, ask a test developer for more information so the test can remain on the market, or stop a company from selling its test in the U.S.
The FDA has authorized 12 antibody tests under individual EUAs, most within just the past few days, and more than 200 antibody tests are currently the subject of a pre-EUA or EUA review, the agency noted. Almost half of the tests offered by commercial manufacturers are under an EUA review or a pre-EUA, a pre-submission that allows the developer to share data with or seek advice from the FDA.
not 100% sure what "had to put flexible regulations" "given the nature" of the pandemic means, but it doesn't really matter much now. hopefully, there are some real inroads here. if this is where we could possibly get scale, it would help. by the time it does, decent chance there's some read on immunity.
Nice joint statement from Congress, and a small but appreciated bit of leadership by example....
“Congress is grateful for the Administration’s generous offer to deploy rapid COVID-19 testing capabilities to Capitol Hill, but we respectfully decline the offer at this time,” McConnell and Pelosi said in a joint statement.
Kismet wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 2:24 pm
Today's tweet of the day from actor, George Takei (Lt. Sulu from Starship Enterprise), American-born Japanese American citizen who makes an appropriate point on liberty and freedom having been interned in a camp during World War II
George Takei
@GeorgeTakei
·
16h
"I didn't spend my childhood in barbed wire enclosed internment camps so I could listen to grown adults today cry oppression because they have to wear a mask at Costco."
He has a point, don't ya think?
I wonder if George Takei understands that were it not for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor he never would have been interred anywhere. I mean no disrespect to good ole George but outside of it being a good idea for all of us to wear masks, I could not care less about what George thinks about anything.
Wrong, wrong, WRONG.
I think highly of FDR, but his decision to implement the internment of Japanese Americans was based solely on racism.
Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, and we didn’t put German or Italian Americans in prison camps.
DocBarrister
Factually wrong, again, Doc. We did put Germans and Italians in camps. And Many others. And it was not at a limited number or based upon any one "reason" like racism. We also moved them further inland away from coasts.
The diverse makeup of Justice Department detainees classified by as "Germans" or "Italians" reveals that other factors trumped ethnicity, residency, and citizenship as grounds for internment. On the U.S. mainland, refugees and naturalized citizens from countries annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany also came under suspicion, resulting in the confinement of Austrians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians. [17] Those apprehended in the Territory of Hawai'i included a handful of Jewish refugees and people of Danish, Finnish, Irish, and Norwegian descent. Several of Hawai'i's Caucasian detainees had even served in the U.S. Armed Forces. [18] The scope of the American confinement program also extended overseas, with FBI agents compiling lists of allegedly dangerous individuals of German, Italian, and Japanese descent residing throughout Latin America. Pressure from the U.S. State Department resulted in the apprehension and deportation of 4,058 ethnic Germans and 288 ethnic Italians (along with 2,264 people of Japanese ancestry) from nineteen different Latin American countries to the United States for the purposes of prisoner exchanges with Axis nations or continued confinement on the U.S. mainland. [19] The ranks of these detainees included large numbers of Jewish refugees from Nazi-controlled Europe, with 250 Jews detained in the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone alone. [20]
Federal authorities concentrated this eclectic and multinational mix of enemy aliens in at least twenty-one different Justice Department and Army camps far removed from coastal areas, typically in facilities that also held Japanese detainees. [21] Population totals were extremely fluid as prisoners were transferred between camps or repatriated to their native countries. The Justice Department's Crystal City site, which served as a family camp, reached a peak population of 3,374 prisoners, including 997 ethnic Germans and six ethnic Italians–many coming from Latin America. [22] 2,150 ethnic Germans—both civilian residents and merchant seamen—passed through the Justice Department camp at Fort Lincoln, making this Bismarck, North Dakota, facility one of the chief confinement sites for German detainees. [23] Other camps featuring significant ethnic German or Italian populations included the aforementioned Ft. Stanton and Ft. Missoula sites, as well as Camp Kenedy , Texas, and Camp Forrest , Tennessee.
Just stop with the nonsense. You’re not actually comparing that to the racist mass internment of Japanese Americans, are you?
DocBarrister
No, READ Doc. This FanLax "character" you've created is very shallow. He's nothing more than a race baiter. And that won't get you far here, where we're trying to talk about things at a little depth. Break the shackles of your mind. There's much more to life than screaming "racism!" at every turn. For hating Trump so much, you are turning into him with your lack of reading, and your shallow, overly-simplistic views on things.
At the risk of catching mud from both sides, let me try to help.
You aren't suggesting an equivalency between the internment of all Japanese Americans (except those actually serving in the military, but including their families) simply because of their country of origin with the much more selective confinement of others, right?
You were just pointing out that indeed some Germans and Italians and others, allegedly dangerous, were confined. But not all, not across the board based on country of origin, right?
And, it's quite likely that the confinement of those Germans etc was well beyond any actually dangerous as well.
The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries, but it's not that no one was treated as dangerous from those countries too.
Do I have that right?
"The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries"
I am guessing that Pearl Harbor may have had something to do with why the Japanese were treated differently. It is easy to pass judgement on the mood of the country almost 80 years later. A lot of Americans were angry and ticked off at all Japanese. It was wrong how we acted but the national mood about all Japanese centered around mistrust and resentment. America saw a similar attitude against all Muslims after 9/11.
Certainly true.
It doesn't justify it, but does explain it.
Race and other ways to label the Other are easy mechanisms to deal with fear and anger.
Need to be resisted in the moment, not just decades later.
I agree with everything you are saying. You can't ignore what the country felt after Pearl Harbor. 80 years ago we were not a forgiving and understanding country. We were an angry nation looking for retribution in blood.
Immediately after Pearl Harbor, there were legitimate fears of Japanese attacks on the US west coast. Our Pac Fleet was decimated at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had just demonstrated the most successful carrier strike in history. ...& besides, the USA was a deplorable bunch of racists then, just as we are now.
a fan wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 7:16 pm
Nice joint statement from Congress, and a small but appreciated bit of leadership by example....
“Congress is grateful for the Administration’s generous offer to deploy rapid COVID-19 testing capabilities to Capitol Hill, but we respectfully decline the offer at this time,” McConnell and Pelosi said in a joint statement.
pretty balanced article. sweden's approach by public statement was that they trusted their people, they had their own models and estimations, and that working it the way they did was also geared to not having to continuously have to disrupt if the virus continually came back, as you can't shut down forever.
just like with the virus, we'll only know on the swings of economy's when it's over. https://www.ft.com/content/a2b4c18c-a5e ... e4a82a548d
one thing they'll be doing going forward is put coin, hiring and training into elder care: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/sweden- ... rises.html
re: herd immunity, it's possible their recent slowing (and getting off the exponential curve) has been a reflection of immunity, slowing the transmission rate. maybe we'll find out it's the best real example of it before we get any real proof.
gottlieb today on the recent medrxiv preprint: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/were-in ... -says.html
pretty balanced article. sweden's approach by public statement was that they trusted their people, they had their own models and estimations, and that working it the way they did was also geared to not having to continuously have to disrupt if the virus continually came back, as you can't shut down forever.
just like with the virus, we'll only know on the swings of economy's when it's over. https://www.ft.com/content/a2b4c18c-a5e ... e4a82a548d
one thing they'll be doing going forward is put coin, hiring and training into elder care: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/sweden- ... rises.html
re: herd immunity, it's possible their recent slowing (and getting off the exponential curve) has been a reflection of immunity, slowing the transmission rate. maybe we'll find out it's the best real example of it before we get any real proof.
gottlieb today on the recent medrxiv preprint: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/were-in ... -says.html
Sweden’s approach may work for Sweden. Economically it’s been a push. We don’t have that kind of discipline in this country. Unless we get lucky, the economics and loss of life will be a disaster here. Combine lack of patience with hubris and you can get a bad outcome. Add in an election year and you can get really bad decisions.
Kismet wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 2:24 pm
Today's tweet of the day from actor, George Takei (Lt. Sulu from Starship Enterprise), American-born Japanese American citizen who makes an appropriate point on liberty and freedom having been interned in a camp during World War II
George Takei
@GeorgeTakei
·
16h
"I didn't spend my childhood in barbed wire enclosed internment camps so I could listen to grown adults today cry oppression because they have to wear a mask at Costco."
He has a point, don't ya think?
I wonder if George Takei understands that were it not for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor he never would have been interred anywhere. I mean no disrespect to good ole George but outside of it being a good idea for all of us to wear masks, I could not care less about what George thinks about anything.
Wrong, wrong, WRONG.
I think highly of FDR, but his decision to implement the internment of Japanese Americans was based solely on racism.
Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, and we didn’t put German or Italian Americans in prison camps.
DocBarrister
Factually wrong, again, Doc. We did put Germans and Italians in camps. And Many others. And it was not at a limited number or based upon any one "reason" like racism. We also moved them further inland away from coasts.
The diverse makeup of Justice Department detainees classified by as "Germans" or "Italians" reveals that other factors trumped ethnicity, residency, and citizenship as grounds for internment. On the U.S. mainland, refugees and naturalized citizens from countries annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany also came under suspicion, resulting in the confinement of Austrians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians. [17] Those apprehended in the Territory of Hawai'i included a handful of Jewish refugees and people of Danish, Finnish, Irish, and Norwegian descent. Several of Hawai'i's Caucasian detainees had even served in the U.S. Armed Forces. [18] The scope of the American confinement program also extended overseas, with FBI agents compiling lists of allegedly dangerous individuals of German, Italian, and Japanese descent residing throughout Latin America. Pressure from the U.S. State Department resulted in the apprehension and deportation of 4,058 ethnic Germans and 288 ethnic Italians (along with 2,264 people of Japanese ancestry) from nineteen different Latin American countries to the United States for the purposes of prisoner exchanges with Axis nations or continued confinement on the U.S. mainland. [19] The ranks of these detainees included large numbers of Jewish refugees from Nazi-controlled Europe, with 250 Jews detained in the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone alone. [20]
Federal authorities concentrated this eclectic and multinational mix of enemy aliens in at least twenty-one different Justice Department and Army camps far removed from coastal areas, typically in facilities that also held Japanese detainees. [21] Population totals were extremely fluid as prisoners were transferred between camps or repatriated to their native countries. The Justice Department's Crystal City site, which served as a family camp, reached a peak population of 3,374 prisoners, including 997 ethnic Germans and six ethnic Italians–many coming from Latin America. [22] 2,150 ethnic Germans—both civilian residents and merchant seamen—passed through the Justice Department camp at Fort Lincoln, making this Bismarck, North Dakota, facility one of the chief confinement sites for German detainees. [23] Other camps featuring significant ethnic German or Italian populations included the aforementioned Ft. Stanton and Ft. Missoula sites, as well as Camp Kenedy , Texas, and Camp Forrest , Tennessee.
Just stop with the nonsense. You’re not actually comparing that to the racist mass internment of Japanese Americans, are you?
DocBarrister
No, READ Doc. This FanLax "character" you've created is very shallow. He's nothing more than a race baiter. And that won't get you far here, where we're trying to talk about things at a little depth. Break the shackles of your mind. There's much more to life than screaming "racism!" at every turn. For hating Trump so much, you are turning into him with your lack of reading, and your shallow, overly-simplistic views on things.
At the risk of catching mud from both sides, let me try to help.
You aren't suggesting an equivalency between the internment of all Japanese Americans (except those actually serving in the military, but including their families) simply because of their country of origin with the much more selective confinement of others, right?
You were just pointing out that indeed some Germans and Italians and others, allegedly dangerous, were confined. But not all, not across the board based on country of origin, right?
And, it's quite likely that the confinement of those Germans etc was well beyond any actually dangerous as well.
The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries, but it's not that no one was treated as dangerous from those countries too.
Do I have that right?
"The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries"
I am guessing that Pearl Harbor may have had something to do with why the Japanese were treated differently. It is easy to pass judgement on the mood of the country almost 80 years later. A lot of Americans were angry and ticked off at all Japanese. It was wrong how we acted but the national mood about all Japanese centered around mistrust and resentment. America saw a similar attitude against all Muslims after 9/11.
Certainly true.
It doesn't justify it, but does explain it.
Race and other ways to label the Other are easy mechanisms to deal with fear and anger.
Need to be resisted in the moment, not just decades later.
I agree with everything you are saying. You can't ignore what the country felt after Pearl Harbor. 80 years ago we were not a forgiving and understanding country. We were an angry nation looking for retribution in blood.
Immediately after Pearl Harbor, there were legitimate fears of Japanese attacks on the US west coast. Our Pac Fleet was decimated at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had just demonstrated the most successful carrier strike in history. ...& besides, the USA was a deplorable bunch of racists then, just as we are now.
