All things Chinese CoronaVirus

[njbill]

As is writing.

Reread your own posts (“I’d make the same bet.”). If you don’t want to concede a point, be more specific in your writing.

If you would write more clearly and conventionally, you might get your points across more persuasively from time to time. It might also help if you would do some more reading on subjects you write about.

[njbill]

you seem to be more plugged in than me into the nationwide medical community and protocols.

I’ll take your word for it. I get my information from reading and watching the media. It appears the medical community is following the FDA’s advice.

Glad you agree HCQ will end up in the dustpan. We are making progress.

What?

I've seen real coronavirus survivors (dozens of them) proudly claiming to anyone that would listen that their doctors saved their lives by prescribing Hydroxychloroquine.

I've seen DOCTORS claim they've saved 100's of lives prescribing the drug.
And you think progress is removing it from use? Resigning it to the dustbin?
Because Trump said something positive about it?

Thats ghoulish.

Old news. Yes, HCQ was getting used early on, but it has fallen out of favor. Yes, there are anecdotal stories about its effectiveness. But the most recent studies have suggested it is ineffective and even dangerous.

Where did I mention Trump? Not sure you want to go there given his recent “medical” commentary.

[6ftstick]

you seem to be more plugged in than me into the nationwide medical community and protocols.

I’ll take your word for it. I get my information from reading and watching the media. It appears the medical community is following the FDA’s advice.

Glad you agree HCQ will end up in the dustpan. We are making progress.

What?

I've seen real coronavirus survivors (dozens of them) proudly claiming to anyone that would listen that their doctors saved their lives by prescribing Hydroxychloroquine.

I've seen DOCTORS claim they've saved 100's of lives prescribing the drug.
And you think progress is removing it from use? Resigning it to the dustbin?
Because Trump said something positive about it?

Thats ghoulish.

Old news. Yes, HCQ was getting used early on, but it has fallen out of favor. Yes, there are anecdotal stories about its effectiveness. But the most recent studies have suggested it is ineffective and even dangerous.

Where did I mention Trump? Not sure you want to go there given his recent “medical” commentary.

The #1 virologist in the world recommended it. Thousands of doctors prescribed it. They're were no harmful effects.

Trumps the only objection.

[Peter Brown]

If there is one article you should read about how to re-open an economy and why you should, read this Foreign Affairs article about the Swedish way and why ultimately it will prove to be the most successful.

It is crazy that the US outside of New York continues to keep schools closed.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... -be-worlds

And, just to be sure, Foreign Affairs isn't exactly MAGA-Central.

[njbill]

That’s in the past. And they were harmful effects: heart problems.

[RedFromMI]

you seem to be more plugged in than me into the nationwide medical community and protocols.

I’ll take your word for it. I get my information from reading and watching the media. It appears the medical community is following the FDA’s advice.

Glad you agree HCQ will end up in the dustpan. We are making progress.

What?

I've seen real coronavirus survivors (dozens of them) proudly claiming to anyone that would listen that their doctors saved their lives by prescribing Hydroxychloroquine.

I've seen DOCTORS claim they've saved 100's of lives prescribing the drug.
And you think progress is removing it from use? Resigning it to the dustbin?
Because Trump said something positive about it?

Thats ghoulish.

Old news. Yes, HCQ was getting used early on, but it has fallen out of favor. Yes, there are anecdotal stories about its effectiveness. But the most recent studies have suggested it is ineffective and even dangerous.

Where did I mention Trump? Not sure you want to go there given his recent “medical” commentary.

The #1 virologist in the world recommended it. Thousands of doctors prescribed it. They're were no harmful effects.

Trumps the only objection.

Not necessarily the #1 virologist - that is a matter of opinion, and the opinion is mixed with respect to him:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/maga ... quine.html

He likes to be a contrarian, and not all of his contrary positions have borne out. His name is attached to pretty much all output of the institute he heads, which might make him leading in the sense of number of publications, but probably does over represent his actual output.

There are well known side effects of both HCQ and Zpac. Some quite dangerous and harmful. Can be managed, but need to be careful with many patients.

[wgdsr]

As is writing.

Reread your own posts (“I’d make the same bet.”). If you don’t want to concede a point, be more specific in your writing.

If you would write more clearly and conventionally, you might get your points across more persuasively from time to time. It might also help if you would do some more reading on subjects you write about.

you misquoted me
now you're being a condescending a**.
i said in a binary "prediction", i would "bet" the same. i also explained further i'd make the same bet for any drug as that's how drug trials and studies work. they are all long shots. it was written pretty clearly.

you then wrote "glad you agree hcq will end up in the dustbin."

which anyone can tell isn't remotely the same. i have zero doubt you understand this, and chose to do what you do anyway. most folks on here have no problem with healthy debate, and maybe learning something in the process. whatever that might be, even other people's mindset.

what isn't very cool is being duplicitous when you no doubt know better. if i misrepresent what you say, please correct me.

[njbill]

As is writing.

Reread your own posts (“I’d make the same bet.”). If you don’t want to concede a point, be more specific in your writing.

If you would write more clearly and conventionally, you might get your points across more persuasively from time to time. It might also help if you would do some more reading on subjects you write about.

you misquoted me
now you're being a condescending a**.
i said in a binary "prediction", i would "bet" the same. i also explained further i'd make the same bet for any drug as that's how drug trials and studies work. they are all long shots. it was written pretty clearly.

you then wrote "glad you agree hcq will end up in the dustbin."

which anyone can tell isn't remotely the same. i have zero doubt you understand this, and chose to do what you do anyway. most folks on here have no problem with healthy debate, and maybe learning something in the process. whatever that might be, even other people's mindset.

what isn't very cool is being duplicitous when you no doubt know better. if i misrepresent what you say, please correct me.

I didn’t misquote you. I used your exact words. Hence my use of quotation marks. You used those words in response to a sentence I wrote. If your intention was to agree with part of the sentence and disagree with another part, you need to be more clear in your writing.

You seem to be more interested in argument than healthy debate.

This discussion between you and me began when you mischaracterized (in my view) the recent study. I explained why I thought you had done so. You responded. Etc., etc. You have gone from debating to arguing to ad hominem attacks.

I rarely, if ever, need to do this with other posters, but now for the second time I’m going to do this with you. This is my last post on this subject. If you care to have the last word, be my guest.

[wgdsr]

great, i'll take you up on it.

My prediction is that at the end of the day, the scientists will develop some effective and some very effective therapeutics, but HCQ will be relegated to the dust bin.

as to the binary prediction, i'd make the same bet (so should anyone). novel virus or not, the odds of any specific drug or therapy being very effective are long. i'm sure good and deeper data will drive that for all options.

hope that doesn't confuse anyone.

[ggait]

Actually, it was the wrong call, but with good intentions and he indeed was accurate about cloth masks not providing the wearer much protection. The benefit is to reduce spread by the wearer, not to protect them sufficiently.

It was absolutely the wrong call. Their messaging was an epic fail because they conflated two things that were easily separated.

What Fauci and the SG meant/said:

We need to keep the medical masks for the medical workers. So no one else should try to get/wear masks.

What they eventually said and should have said initially:

We need to keep the medical masks for the medical workers. So everyone else should wear a non-medical face covering. You all have T-shirts, bandanas and pillow cases. Those all work great.

Not hard at all to make the point.

[Kismet]

Take note that as Fox News stars echo Trump's call to "reopen the country," Fox extended the company's work-from-home directive through June 15. The date could be delayed further.

Also would ask that folks take a minute and listen to actor Matthew McConaughey (not exactly a liberal icon) on wearing masks and fighting the virus TOGETHER rather than fighting each other AND the virus.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/entertainmen ... ar-vpx.cnn

[old salt]

Fauci can’t be that stupid. I hope I am right:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1173006

Fauci was accurate at the time. Wearing a surgical mask does not protect the wearer, it only protects others.
At that point, they were trying to secure PPE & prevent hoarding of masks, especially N95's.
Fauci's not going to recommend something that might give a false sense of security.
It was the right call. If not a N95, other masks are just virtue signalling, so long as you socially distance.

Actually, it was the wrong call, but with good intentions and he indeed was accurate about cloth masks not providing the wearer much protection. The benefit is to reduce spread by the wearer, not to protect them sufficiently.

Many of us were explaining this very early on, based on the experiences in asian countries which have long adopted these practices. This is very definitely not just 'virtue signaling' as there's simply no way to ensure that one is always sufficiently physically distant, not just from other people but also surfaces where someone else may touch. Wear the mask, reduce the spread. It doesn't eliminate it, but it reduces it.

When did the Asian countries make the shift from surgical masks to cloth masks for the general population ? Did those countries have PPE shortages ?

[old salt]

Today's tweet of the day from actor, George Takei (Lt. Sulu from Starship Enterprise), American-born Japanese American citizen who makes an appropriate point on liberty and freedom having been interned in a camp during World War II

George Takei
@GeorgeTakei
·
16h
"I didn't spend my childhood in barbed wire enclosed internment camps so I could listen to grown adults today cry oppression because they have to wear a mask at Costco."

He has a point, don't ya think?

I wonder if George Takei understands that were it not for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor he never would have been interred anywhere. I mean no disrespect to good ole George but outside of it being a good idea for all of us to wear masks, I could not care less about what George thinks about anything.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

I think highly of FDR, but his decision to implement the internment of Japanese Americans was based solely on racism.

Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, and we didn’t put German or Italian Americans in prison camps.

DocBarrister

Factually wrong, again, Doc. We did put Germans and Italians in camps. And Many others. And it was not at a limited number or based upon any one "reason" like racism. We also moved them further inland away from coasts.

Read Invisible Gulag.

https://www.si.edu/object/siris_sil_628575

The diverse makeup of Justice Department detainees classified by as "Germans" or "Italians" reveals that other factors trumped ethnicity, residency, and citizenship as grounds for internment. On the U.S. mainland, refugees and naturalized citizens from countries annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany also came under suspicion, resulting in the confinement of Austrians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians. [17] Those apprehended in the Territory of Hawai'i included a handful of Jewish refugees and people of Danish, Finnish, Irish, and Norwegian descent. Several of Hawai'i's Caucasian detainees had even served in the U.S. Armed Forces. [18] The scope of the American confinement program also extended overseas, with FBI agents compiling lists of allegedly dangerous individuals of German, Italian, and Japanese descent residing throughout Latin America. Pressure from the U.S. State Department resulted in the apprehension and deportation of 4,058 ethnic Germans and 288 ethnic Italians (along with 2,264 people of Japanese ancestry) from nineteen different Latin American countries to the United States for the purposes of prisoner exchanges with Axis nations or continued confinement on the U.S. mainland. [19] The ranks of these detainees included large numbers of Jewish refugees from Nazi-controlled Europe, with 250 Jews detained in the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone alone. [20]

Federal authorities concentrated this eclectic and multinational mix of enemy aliens in at least twenty-one different Justice Department and Army camps far removed from coastal areas, typically in facilities that also held Japanese detainees. [21] Population totals were extremely fluid as prisoners were transferred between camps or repatriated to their native countries. The Justice Department's Crystal City site, which served as a family camp, reached a peak population of 3,374 prisoners, including 997 ethnic Germans and six ethnic Italians–many coming from Latin America. [22] 2,150 ethnic Germans—both civilian residents and merchant seamen—passed through the Justice Department camp at Fort Lincoln, making this Bismarck, North Dakota, facility one of the chief confinement sites for German detainees. [23] Other camps featuring significant ethnic German or Italian populations included the aforementioned Ft. Stanton and Ft. Missoula sites, as well as Camp Kenedy , Texas, and Camp Forrest , Tennessee.

Just stop with the nonsense. You’re not actually comparing that to the racist mass internment of Japanese Americans, are you?

DocBarrister

No, READ Doc. This FanLax "character" you've created is very shallow. He's nothing more than a race baiter. And that won't get you far here, where we're trying to talk about things at a little depth. Break the shackles of your mind. There's much more to life than screaming "racism!" at every turn. For hating Trump so much, you are turning into him with your lack of reading, and your shallow, overly-simplistic views on things.

At the risk of catching mud from both sides, let me try to help.

You aren't suggesting an equivalency between the internment of all Japanese Americans (except those actually serving in the military, but including their families) simply because of their country of origin with the much more selective confinement of others, right?

You were just pointing out that indeed some Germans and Italians and others, allegedly dangerous, were confined. But not all, not across the board based on country of origin, right?

And, it's quite likely that the confinement of those Germans etc was well beyond any actually dangerous as well.

The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries, but it's not that no one was treated as dangerous from those countries too.

Do I have that right?

"The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries"

I am guessing that Pearl Harbor may have had something to do with why the Japanese were treated differently. It is easy to pass judgement on the mood of the country almost 80 years later. A lot of Americans were angry and ticked off at all Japanese. It was wrong how we acted but the national mood about all Japanese centered around mistrust and resentment. America saw a similar attitude against all Muslims after 9/11.

Certainly true.
It doesn't justify it, but does explain it.
Race and other ways to label the Other are easy mechanisms to deal with fear and anger.
Need to be resisted in the moment, not just decades later.

I agree with everything you are saying. You can't ignore what the country felt after Pearl Harbor. 80 years ago we were not a forgiving and understanding country. We were an angry nation looking for retribution in blood.

Immediately after Pearl Harbor, there were legitimate fears of Japanese attacks on the US west coast. Our Pac Fleet was decimated at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had just demonstrated the most successful carrier strike in history. ...& besides, the USA was a deplorable bunch of racists then, just as we are now.

[old salt]

Fauci can’t be that stupid. I hope I am right:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1173006

Fauci was accurate at the time. Wearing a surgical mask does not protect the wearer, it only protects others.
At that point, they were trying to secure PPE & prevent hoarding of masks, especially N95's.
Fauci's not going to recommend something that might give a false sense of security.
It was the right call. If not a N95, other masks are just virtue signalling, so long as you socially distance.

Actually, it was the wrong call, but with good intentions and he indeed was accurate about cloth masks not providing the wearer much protection. The benefit is to reduce spread by the wearer, not to protect them sufficiently.

Many of us were explaining this very early on, based on the experiences in asian countries which have long adopted these practices. This is very definitely not just 'virtue signaling' as there's simply no way to ensure that one is always sufficiently physically distant, not just from other people but also surfaces where someone else may touch. Wear the mask, reduce the spread. It doesn't eliminate it, but it reduces it.

When did the Asian countries make the shift from surgical masks to cloth masks for the general population ? Did those countries have PPE shortages ?

FTR -- I began wearing a small t-shirt, just over my head/around my neck, that I could pull up to cover my mouth & nose when near others, before any guidance was issued. I remember I was wearing it by Mar 8th when I got flu, pneu, & shingles vac shots at my nearby Safeway pharmacy.

[MDlaxfan76]

Today's tweet of the day from actor, George Takei (Lt. Sulu from Starship Enterprise), American-born Japanese American citizen who makes an appropriate point on liberty and freedom having been interned in a camp during World War II

George Takei
@GeorgeTakei
·
16h
"I didn't spend my childhood in barbed wire enclosed internment camps so I could listen to grown adults today cry oppression because they have to wear a mask at Costco."

He has a point, don't ya think?

I wonder if George Takei understands that were it not for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor he never would have been interred anywhere. I mean no disrespect to good ole George but outside of it being a good idea for all of us to wear masks, I could not care less about what George thinks about anything.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

I think highly of FDR, but his decision to implement the internment of Japanese Americans was based solely on racism.

Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, and we didn’t put German or Italian Americans in prison camps.

DocBarrister

Factually wrong, again, Doc. We did put Germans and Italians in camps. And Many others. And it was not at a limited number or based upon any one "reason" like racism. We also moved them further inland away from coasts.

Read Invisible Gulag.

https://www.si.edu/object/siris_sil_628575

The diverse makeup of Justice Department detainees classified by as "Germans" or "Italians" reveals that other factors trumped ethnicity, residency, and citizenship as grounds for internment. On the U.S. mainland, refugees and naturalized citizens from countries annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany also came under suspicion, resulting in the confinement of Austrians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians. [17] Those apprehended in the Territory of Hawai'i included a handful of Jewish refugees and people of Danish, Finnish, Irish, and Norwegian descent. Several of Hawai'i's Caucasian detainees had even served in the U.S. Armed Forces. [18] The scope of the American confinement program also extended overseas, with FBI agents compiling lists of allegedly dangerous individuals of German, Italian, and Japanese descent residing throughout Latin America. Pressure from the U.S. State Department resulted in the apprehension and deportation of 4,058 ethnic Germans and 288 ethnic Italians (along with 2,264 people of Japanese ancestry) from nineteen different Latin American countries to the United States for the purposes of prisoner exchanges with Axis nations or continued confinement on the U.S. mainland. [19] The ranks of these detainees included large numbers of Jewish refugees from Nazi-controlled Europe, with 250 Jews detained in the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone alone. [20]

Federal authorities concentrated this eclectic and multinational mix of enemy aliens in at least twenty-one different Justice Department and Army camps far removed from coastal areas, typically in facilities that also held Japanese detainees. [21] Population totals were extremely fluid as prisoners were transferred between camps or repatriated to their native countries. The Justice Department's Crystal City site, which served as a family camp, reached a peak population of 3,374 prisoners, including 997 ethnic Germans and six ethnic Italians–many coming from Latin America. [22] 2,150 ethnic Germans—both civilian residents and merchant seamen—passed through the Justice Department camp at Fort Lincoln, making this Bismarck, North Dakota, facility one of the chief confinement sites for German detainees. [23] Other camps featuring significant ethnic German or Italian populations included the aforementioned Ft. Stanton and Ft. Missoula sites, as well as Camp Kenedy , Texas, and Camp Forrest , Tennessee.

Just stop with the nonsense. You’re not actually comparing that to the racist mass internment of Japanese Americans, are you?

DocBarrister

No, READ Doc. This FanLax "character" you've created is very shallow. He's nothing more than a race baiter. And that won't get you far here, where we're trying to talk about things at a little depth. Break the shackles of your mind. There's much more to life than screaming "racism!" at every turn. For hating Trump so much, you are turning into him with your lack of reading, and your shallow, overly-simplistic views on things.

At the risk of catching mud from both sides, let me try to help.

You aren't suggesting an equivalency between the internment of all Japanese Americans (except those actually serving in the military, but including their families) simply because of their country of origin with the much more selective confinement of others, right?

You were just pointing out that indeed some Germans and Italians and others, allegedly dangerous, were confined. But not all, not across the board based on country of origin, right?

And, it's quite likely that the confinement of those Germans etc was well beyond any actually dangerous as well.

The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries, but it's not that no one was treated as dangerous from those countries too.

Do I have that right?

"The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries"

I am guessing that Pearl Harbor may have had something to do with why the Japanese were treated differently. It is easy to pass judgement on the mood of the country almost 80 years later. A lot of Americans were angry and ticked off at all Japanese. It was wrong how we acted but the national mood about all Japanese centered around mistrust and resentment. America saw a similar attitude against all Muslims after 9/11.

Certainly true.
It doesn't justify it, but does explain it.
Race and other ways to label the Other are easy mechanisms to deal with fear and anger.
Need to be resisted in the moment, not just decades later.

I agree with everything you are saying. You can't ignore what the country felt after Pearl Harbor. 80 years ago we were not a forgiving and understanding country. We were an angry nation looking for retribution in blood.

Very human reaction.
That said, it's exactly these ugliest sorts of impulses that are so important to resist, right away, in the moment.
It's way too easy to look for an Other to blame for whatever we fear, resent, etc...turning to hate and to ugly action.

That said, that human reaction, ugly as it was, also can and should be "forgiven".

But let's not kid ourselves, we're fully capable of being so ugly again. And worse.

[MDlaxfan76]

Today's tweet of the day from actor, George Takei (Lt. Sulu from Starship Enterprise), American-born Japanese American citizen who makes an appropriate point on liberty and freedom having been interned in a camp during World War II

George Takei
@GeorgeTakei
·
16h
"I didn't spend my childhood in barbed wire enclosed internment camps so I could listen to grown adults today cry oppression because they have to wear a mask at Costco."

He has a point, don't ya think?

I wonder if George Takei understands that were it not for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor he never would have been interred anywhere. I mean no disrespect to good ole George but outside of it being a good idea for all of us to wear masks, I could not care less about what George thinks about anything.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

I think highly of FDR, but his decision to implement the internment of Japanese Americans was based solely on racism.

Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, and we didn’t put German or Italian Americans in prison camps.

DocBarrister

Factually wrong, again, Doc. We did put Germans and Italians in camps. And Many others. And it was not at a limited number or based upon any one "reason" like racism. We also moved them further inland away from coasts.

Read Invisible Gulag.

https://www.si.edu/object/siris_sil_628575

The diverse makeup of Justice Department detainees classified by as "Germans" or "Italians" reveals that other factors trumped ethnicity, residency, and citizenship as grounds for internment. On the U.S. mainland, refugees and naturalized citizens from countries annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany also came under suspicion, resulting in the confinement of Austrians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians. [17] Those apprehended in the Territory of Hawai'i included a handful of Jewish refugees and people of Danish, Finnish, Irish, and Norwegian descent. Several of Hawai'i's Caucasian detainees had even served in the U.S. Armed Forces. [18] The scope of the American confinement program also extended overseas, with FBI agents compiling lists of allegedly dangerous individuals of German, Italian, and Japanese descent residing throughout Latin America. Pressure from the U.S. State Department resulted in the apprehension and deportation of 4,058 ethnic Germans and 288 ethnic Italians (along with 2,264 people of Japanese ancestry) from nineteen different Latin American countries to the United States for the purposes of prisoner exchanges with Axis nations or continued confinement on the U.S. mainland. [19] The ranks of these detainees included large numbers of Jewish refugees from Nazi-controlled Europe, with 250 Jews detained in the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone alone. [20]

Federal authorities concentrated this eclectic and multinational mix of enemy aliens in at least twenty-one different Justice Department and Army camps far removed from coastal areas, typically in facilities that also held Japanese detainees. [21] Population totals were extremely fluid as prisoners were transferred between camps or repatriated to their native countries. The Justice Department's Crystal City site, which served as a family camp, reached a peak population of 3,374 prisoners, including 997 ethnic Germans and six ethnic Italians–many coming from Latin America. [22] 2,150 ethnic Germans—both civilian residents and merchant seamen—passed through the Justice Department camp at Fort Lincoln, making this Bismarck, North Dakota, facility one of the chief confinement sites for German detainees. [23] Other camps featuring significant ethnic German or Italian populations included the aforementioned Ft. Stanton and Ft. Missoula sites, as well as Camp Kenedy , Texas, and Camp Forrest , Tennessee.

Just stop with the nonsense. You’re not actually comparing that to the racist mass internment of Japanese Americans, are you?

DocBarrister

No, READ Doc. This FanLax "character" you've created is very shallow. He's nothing more than a race baiter. And that won't get you far here, where we're trying to talk about things at a little depth. Break the shackles of your mind. There's much more to life than screaming "racism!" at every turn. For hating Trump so much, you are turning into him with your lack of reading, and your shallow, overly-simplistic views on things.

At the risk of catching mud from both sides, let me try to help.

You aren't suggesting an equivalency between the internment of all Japanese Americans (except those actually serving in the military, but including their families) simply because of their country of origin with the much more selective confinement of others, right?

You were just pointing out that indeed some Germans and Italians and others, allegedly dangerous, were confined. But not all, not across the board based on country of origin, right?

And, it's quite likely that the confinement of those Germans etc was well beyond any actually dangerous as well.

The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries, but it's not that no one was treated as dangerous from those countries too.

Do I have that right?

"The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries"

I am guessing that Pearl Harbor may have had something to do with why the Japanese were treated differently. It is easy to pass judgement on the mood of the country almost 80 years later. A lot of Americans were angry and ticked off at all Japanese. It was wrong how we acted but the national mood about all Japanese centered around mistrust and resentment. America saw a similar attitude against all Muslims after 9/11.

Certainly true.
It doesn't justify it, but does explain it.
Race and other ways to label the Other are easy mechanisms to deal with fear and anger.
Need to be resisted in the moment, not just decades later.

I agree with everything you are saying. You can't ignore what the country felt after Pearl Harbor. 80 years ago we were not a forgiving and understanding country. We were an angry nation looking for retribution in blood.

Immediately after Pearl Harbor, there were legitimate fears of Japanese attacks on the US west coast. Our Pac Fleet was decimated at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had just demonstrated the most successful carrier strike in history. ...& besides, the USA was a deplorable bunch of racists then, just as we are now.

Tru dat.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Today's tweet of the day from actor, George Takei (Lt. Sulu from Starship Enterprise), American-born Japanese American citizen who makes an appropriate point on liberty and freedom having been interned in a camp during World War II

George Takei
@GeorgeTakei
·
16h
"I didn't spend my childhood in barbed wire enclosed internment camps so I could listen to grown adults today cry oppression because they have to wear a mask at Costco."

He has a point, don't ya think?

I wonder if George Takei understands that were it not for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor he never would have been interred anywhere. I mean no disrespect to good ole George but outside of it being a good idea for all of us to wear masks, I could not care less about what George thinks about anything.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

I think highly of FDR, but his decision to implement the internment of Japanese Americans was based solely on racism.

Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, and we didn’t put German or Italian Americans in prison camps.

DocBarrister

Factually wrong, again, Doc. We did put Germans and Italians in camps. And Many others. And it was not at a limited number or based upon any one "reason" like racism. We also moved them further inland away from coasts.

Read Invisible Gulag.

https://www.si.edu/object/siris_sil_628575

The diverse makeup of Justice Department detainees classified by as "Germans" or "Italians" reveals that other factors trumped ethnicity, residency, and citizenship as grounds for internment. On the U.S. mainland, refugees and naturalized citizens from countries annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany also came under suspicion, resulting in the confinement of Austrians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians. [17] Those apprehended in the Territory of Hawai'i included a handful of Jewish refugees and people of Danish, Finnish, Irish, and Norwegian descent. Several of Hawai'i's Caucasian detainees had even served in the U.S. Armed Forces. [18] The scope of the American confinement program also extended overseas, with FBI agents compiling lists of allegedly dangerous individuals of German, Italian, and Japanese descent residing throughout Latin America. Pressure from the U.S. State Department resulted in the apprehension and deportation of 4,058 ethnic Germans and 288 ethnic Italians (along with 2,264 people of Japanese ancestry) from nineteen different Latin American countries to the United States for the purposes of prisoner exchanges with Axis nations or continued confinement on the U.S. mainland. [19] The ranks of these detainees included large numbers of Jewish refugees from Nazi-controlled Europe, with 250 Jews detained in the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone alone. [20]

Federal authorities concentrated this eclectic and multinational mix of enemy aliens in at least twenty-one different Justice Department and Army camps far removed from coastal areas, typically in facilities that also held Japanese detainees. [21] Population totals were extremely fluid as prisoners were transferred between camps or repatriated to their native countries. The Justice Department's Crystal City site, which served as a family camp, reached a peak population of 3,374 prisoners, including 997 ethnic Germans and six ethnic Italians–many coming from Latin America. [22] 2,150 ethnic Germans—both civilian residents and merchant seamen—passed through the Justice Department camp at Fort Lincoln, making this Bismarck, North Dakota, facility one of the chief confinement sites for German detainees. [23] Other camps featuring significant ethnic German or Italian populations included the aforementioned Ft. Stanton and Ft. Missoula sites, as well as Camp Kenedy , Texas, and Camp Forrest , Tennessee.

Just stop with the nonsense. You’re not actually comparing that to the racist mass internment of Japanese Americans, are you?

DocBarrister

No, READ Doc. This FanLax "character" you've created is very shallow. He's nothing more than a race baiter. And that won't get you far here, where we're trying to talk about things at a little depth. Break the shackles of your mind. There's much more to life than screaming "racism!" at every turn. For hating Trump so much, you are turning into him with your lack of reading, and your shallow, overly-simplistic views on things.

At the risk of catching mud from both sides, let me try to help.

You aren't suggesting an equivalency between the internment of all Japanese Americans (except those actually serving in the military, but including their families) simply because of their country of origin with the much more selective confinement of others, right?

You were just pointing out that indeed some Germans and Italians and others, allegedly dangerous, were confined. But not all, not across the board based on country of origin, right?

And, it's quite likely that the confinement of those Germans etc was well beyond any actually dangerous as well.

The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries, but it's not that no one was treated as dangerous from those countries too.

Do I have that right?

"The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries"

I am guessing that Pearl Harbor may have had something to do with why the Japanese were treated differently. It is easy to pass judgement on the mood of the country almost 80 years later. A lot of Americans were angry and ticked off at all Japanese. It was wrong how we acted but the national mood about all Japanese centered around mistrust and resentment. America saw a similar attitude against all Muslims after 9/11.

Certainly true.
It doesn't justify it, but does explain it.
Race and other ways to label the Other are easy mechanisms to deal with fear and anger.
Need to be resisted in the moment, not just decades later.

I agree with everything you are saying. You can't ignore what the country felt after Pearl Harbor. 80 years ago we were not a forgiving and understanding country. We were an angry nation looking for retribution in blood.

Immediately after Pearl Harbor, there were legitimate fears of Japanese attacks on the US west coast. Our Pac Fleet was decimated at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had just demonstrated the most successful carrier strike in history. ...& besides, the USA was a deplorable bunch of racists then, just as we are now.

Hold old were you in 1941?

[ggait]

If there is one article you should read about how to re-open an economy and why you should, read this Foreign Affairs article about the Swedish way and why ultimately it will prove to be the most successful.

It is crazy that the US outside of New York continues to keep schools closed.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... -be-worlds

And, just to be sure, Foreign Affairs isn't exactly MAGA-Central.

Petey -- A few things to point out about Sweden's experience (good and bad):

1. They admit they really screwed the pooch on protecting old folks. The size of their dead body pile proves that.

2. They specifically are NOT trying the herd immunity thing. Per their main Covid guy Tegnell:

We are trying to keep transmission rates at a level that the Stockholm health system can sustain. So far that has worked out. We are not calculating herd immunity in this. We believe herd immunity will of course help us in the long run, and we are discussing that, but it's not like we are actively trying to achieve it as has been made out (by the press and some scientists).

3. They are probably right that you could have kept grade schools open. We certainly should have the goal of re-opening USA grade schools in the fall. The risks involved with grade schools are very low and distance learning is tough with youngsters.

4. But just like us, they closed down all HSs and colleges (which remain closed). Higher risks there, and distance learning works better at those levels. Very much TBD what will happen to upper schools in the fall (in USA and also in Sweden).

5. They actually are pretty shut down, despite what the press (especially the rightie press) says. They are just doing it more through voluntary compliance rather than mandates. Their economy is still taking a very big hit.

6. They are healthier than the USA is -- that makes their plan work better than if it were tried here. We have a much bigger percentage of deaths among middle agers and younger seniors due to that. 85+% of Sweden deaths are for 80+ years old.

7. They have lower pop density and more single person households than USA -- that makes their plan work better than if it were tried here.

8. They are a high trust society. So it is politically viable for them to take the higher death count. We are a low trust society -- so it would be hard for us to stick with a plan like they are.

9. Their plan isn't working well on their immigrant and lower SES populations. We have that problem too.

10. It is only halftime. TBD how things work in the rest of the game.

[MDlaxfan76]

Fauci can’t be that stupid. I hope I am right:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1173006

Fauci was accurate at the time. Wearing a surgical mask does not protect the wearer, it only protects others.
At that point, they were trying to secure PPE & prevent hoarding of masks, especially N95's.
Fauci's not going to recommend something that might give a false sense of security.
It was the right call. If not a N95, other masks are just virtue signalling, so long as you socially distance.

Actually, it was the wrong call, but with good intentions and he indeed was accurate about cloth masks not providing the wearer much protection. The benefit is to reduce spread by the wearer, not to protect them sufficiently.

Many of us were explaining this very early on, based on the experiences in asian countries which have long adopted these practices. This is very definitely not just 'virtue signaling' as there's simply no way to ensure that one is always sufficiently physically distant, not just from other people but also surfaces where someone else may touch. Wear the mask, reduce the spread. It doesn't eliminate it, but it reduces it.

When did the Asian countries make the shift from surgical masks to cloth masks for the general population ? Did those countries have PPE shortages ?

FTR -- I began wearing a small t-shirt, just over my head/around my neck, that I could pull up to cover my mouth & nose when near others, before any guidance was issued. I remember I was wearing it by Mar 8th when I got flu, pneu, & shingles vac shots at my nearby Safeway pharmacy.

I don't know that they needed to instruct the population as to what sorts of masks to use, as mask wearing is rather common practice anyway, largely due to pollution. Pretty much everyone already owned multiple masks, with the more expensive ones used on really bad pollution days, the less expensive ones used by those not able to afford better. But lots and lots of masks readily available.

How many of us here in the US had masks? We had a stash of what I learned were N95's for our family we'd had for indoor painting projects etc. We thought about ordering more, but decided that wasn't necessary for our personal situation. Had we done so, we'd probably have subsequently felt duty bound to donate the excess given the shortage that became clear.

But we were discussing this as a family before the end of January as well as throughout February, given our window into what was happening in China through our son and his emphasis on the masks, and why.

SK and Hong Kong and areas inside China such as Shanghai got a running start on masks and distancing because they'd been through pandemics before and knew what to do, fast. Not perfectly, but way, way more careful behavior adopted by people right away. And they already had masks. The tragedy in Wuhan would have been mitigated had the local government allowed the alarm to be heard by the populace early on. It wouldn't have stopped it, but it sure would have slowed it down.

Turning to the US and the rest of the west, had we cranked up our acquisition/production fast for N95's, we didn't need to be behind the curve for those most a risk. And look at what's been possible for cloth masks, once people bought into the notion of making their own or buying from one of dozens and dozens of entrepreneurs producing 'stylish' versions.

You were ahead of the curve for your own smart behavior though, salty.
If only we'd done it society-wide instead of pretending it 'just another flu'.

I'm sure the Italians must feel the same way. If only.

[MDlaxfan76]

Today's tweet of the day from actor, George Takei (Lt. Sulu from Starship Enterprise), American-born Japanese American citizen who makes an appropriate point on liberty and freedom having been interned in a camp during World War II

George Takei
@GeorgeTakei
·
16h
"I didn't spend my childhood in barbed wire enclosed internment camps so I could listen to grown adults today cry oppression because they have to wear a mask at Costco."

He has a point, don't ya think?

I wonder if George Takei understands that were it not for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor he never would have been interred anywhere. I mean no disrespect to good ole George but outside of it being a good idea for all of us to wear masks, I could not care less about what George thinks about anything.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

I think highly of FDR, but his decision to implement the internment of Japanese Americans was based solely on racism.

Germany and Italy declared war on the United States, and we didn’t put German or Italian Americans in prison camps.

DocBarrister

Factually wrong, again, Doc. We did put Germans and Italians in camps. And Many others. And it was not at a limited number or based upon any one "reason" like racism. We also moved them further inland away from coasts.

Read Invisible Gulag.

https://www.si.edu/object/siris_sil_628575

The diverse makeup of Justice Department detainees classified by as "Germans" or "Italians" reveals that other factors trumped ethnicity, residency, and citizenship as grounds for internment. On the U.S. mainland, refugees and naturalized citizens from countries annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany also came under suspicion, resulting in the confinement of Austrians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians. [17] Those apprehended in the Territory of Hawai'i included a handful of Jewish refugees and people of Danish, Finnish, Irish, and Norwegian descent. Several of Hawai'i's Caucasian detainees had even served in the U.S. Armed Forces. [18] The scope of the American confinement program also extended overseas, with FBI agents compiling lists of allegedly dangerous individuals of German, Italian, and Japanese descent residing throughout Latin America. Pressure from the U.S. State Department resulted in the apprehension and deportation of 4,058 ethnic Germans and 288 ethnic Italians (along with 2,264 people of Japanese ancestry) from nineteen different Latin American countries to the United States for the purposes of prisoner exchanges with Axis nations or continued confinement on the U.S. mainland. [19] The ranks of these detainees included large numbers of Jewish refugees from Nazi-controlled Europe, with 250 Jews detained in the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone alone. [20]

Federal authorities concentrated this eclectic and multinational mix of enemy aliens in at least twenty-one different Justice Department and Army camps far removed from coastal areas, typically in facilities that also held Japanese detainees. [21] Population totals were extremely fluid as prisoners were transferred between camps or repatriated to their native countries. The Justice Department's Crystal City site, which served as a family camp, reached a peak population of 3,374 prisoners, including 997 ethnic Germans and six ethnic Italians–many coming from Latin America. [22] 2,150 ethnic Germans—both civilian residents and merchant seamen—passed through the Justice Department camp at Fort Lincoln, making this Bismarck, North Dakota, facility one of the chief confinement sites for German detainees. [23] Other camps featuring significant ethnic German or Italian populations included the aforementioned Ft. Stanton and Ft. Missoula sites, as well as Camp Kenedy , Texas, and Camp Forrest , Tennessee.

Just stop with the nonsense. You’re not actually comparing that to the racist mass internment of Japanese Americans, are you?

DocBarrister

No, READ Doc. This FanLax "character" you've created is very shallow. He's nothing more than a race baiter. And that won't get you far here, where we're trying to talk about things at a little depth. Break the shackles of your mind. There's much more to life than screaming "racism!" at every turn. For hating Trump so much, you are turning into him with your lack of reading, and your shallow, overly-simplistic views on things.

At the risk of catching mud from both sides, let me try to help.

You aren't suggesting an equivalency between the internment of all Japanese Americans (except those actually serving in the military, but including their families) simply because of their country of origin with the much more selective confinement of others, right?

You were just pointing out that indeed some Germans and Italians and others, allegedly dangerous, were confined. But not all, not across the board based on country of origin, right?

And, it's quite likely that the confinement of those Germans etc was well beyond any actually dangerous as well.

The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries, but it's not that no one was treated as dangerous from those countries too.

Do I have that right?

"The Japanese Americans were definitely treated quite differently than were those from European countries"

I am guessing that Pearl Harbor may have had something to do with why the Japanese were treated differently. It is easy to pass judgement on the mood of the country almost 80 years later. A lot of Americans were angry and ticked off at all Japanese. It was wrong how we acted but the national mood about all Japanese centered around mistrust and resentment. America saw a similar attitude against all Muslims after 9/11.

Certainly true.
It doesn't justify it, but does explain it.
Race and other ways to label the Other are easy mechanisms to deal with fear and anger.
Need to be resisted in the moment, not just decades later.

I agree with everything you are saying. You can't ignore what the country felt after Pearl Harbor. 80 years ago we were not a forgiving and understanding country. We were an angry nation looking for retribution in blood.

Immediately after Pearl Harbor, there were legitimate fears of Japanese attacks on the US west coast. Our Pac Fleet was decimated at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had just demonstrated the most successful carrier strike in history. ...& besides, the USA was a deplorable bunch of racists then, just as we are now.

Hold old were you in 1941?

come on, TLD, you're not actually challenging that there was a lot of initial fear, even "legitimate fears" of additional attacks?

I do think we could have quickly realized that those fears were not soundly based (and I suspect many in authority actually did) given the distances involved and our pushback, but at least initially there was a real risk that the Japanese navy would essentially 'blitzkrieg' across the ocean to our shores, largely uncontested given the shambles our navy was in.

None of that justifying the ugly, and ultimately racist, choices that were made.