JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[RedFromMI]

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

At the cost of millions of soviet lives.

I once had to read a book on the siege of Leningrad (St. Petersberg), part of a course I took in college on Russian history - the book stack was about 20 inches high. Brutal and amazing story of survival for those stuck there.

[cradleandshoot]

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

At the cost of millions of soviet lives.

I once had to read a book on the siege of Leningrad (St. Petersberg), part of a course I took in college on Russian history - the book stack was about 20 inches high. Brutal and amazing story of survival for those stuck there.

There were times during the siege of Stalingrad that the Russians would continue to counterattack relentlessly against the German forces. The Soviet army had a unique form of motivation for the typical soviet foot soldier. At the rear of every soviet counter attack were some of Stalins goons who would shoot any soviet soldier trying to retreat. There is motivation for you to keep moving forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._227

[MDlaxfan76]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

What pain and sacrifice from what ally? I assume you are talking about Great Britain. You gots big brass telling me I dont understand the second world . I have spent a good part of my life studying ww2. You want to inform me about the siege of Metz and Ft Driant. You want to debate ww2 with me... bring it on Skippy. You are way out of you league on this one.

Read the list of casualties cradle.
Any of those countries among the allies other than Great Britain?

And they would have all died for nothing if the US hadn't entered the war. We'd all be speaking german and Japanese now unless the full weight of the American people and industry hadn't taken up the fight.

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

At the cost of millions of soviet lives.

Indeed, ballpark 20 million lives.

With huge loss of lives/soldiers and armor and munitions by the Germans.
Had not the Russian front sucked this energy out of the German juggernaut, and likewise the Brits held the channel/line, as well as the resistances across Europe and the ME, we'd have been too late.

Pain and sacrifice.

Yes, we were not alone.

[cradleandshoot]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

What pain and sacrifice from what ally? I assume you are talking about Great Britain. You gots big brass telling me I dont understand the second world . I have spent a good part of my life studying ww2. You want to inform me about the siege of Metz and Ft Driant. You want to debate ww2 with me... bring it on Skippy. You are way out of you league on this one.

Read the list of casualties cradle.
Any of those countries among the allies other than Great Britain?

And they would have all died for nothing if the US hadn't entered the war. We'd all be speaking german and Japanese now unless the full weight of the American people and industry hadn't taken up the fight.

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

The problem is as of May 9 1945 the Soviets became our adversary in Europe. The Soviets were never a real ally. George Patton understood that and ticked off alot of the powers that be in the US Military. The Soviets suffered enormous losses. Ironically they probably lost more of their people to Stalin than they did to the Nazis.

[cradleandshoot]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

What pain and sacrifice from what ally? I assume you are talking about Great Britain. You gots big brass telling me I dont understand the second world . I have spent a good part of my life studying ww2. You want to inform me about the siege of Metz and Ft Driant. You want to debate ww2 with me... bring it on Skippy. You are way out of you league on this one.

Read the list of casualties cradle.
Any of those countries among the allies other than Great Britain?

And they would have all died for nothing if the US hadn't entered the war. We'd all be speaking german and Japanese now unless the full weight of the American people and industry hadn't taken up the fight.

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

At the cost of millions of soviet lives.

Indeed, ballpark 20 million lives.

With huge loss of lives/soldiers and armor and munitions by the Germans.
Had not the Russian front sucked this energy out of the German juggernaut, and likewise the Brits held the channel/line, as well as the resistances across Europe and the ME, we'd have been too late.

Pain and sacrifice.

Yes, we were not alone.

Who do you think made the Russian resistance possible? You do remember the Lend Lease Act? Roosevelt gave the Russians 1 billion plus in aid. That is in 1941 dollars. The Russians suffered almost as much as Stalin dished out over his years as their benevolent murdering dictator. The Russians had to fight because they had no other option. They succeeded because they had the USA supplying their war effort.

The Brits also held on because of all of those supply convoys that FDR sent them. The little known story is how many of our merchant marine sailors went down with their ships when the German U boats caused horrific losses on these transports. We were not alone and neither were the Brits and the Soviets because of the USA. Speaking of the Lend Lease Act to the Soviets... only a tiny amount of that was ever repaid. How much that was depends on what source you want to trust.

[MDlaxfan76]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

What pain and sacrifice from what ally? I assume you are talking about Great Britain. You gots big brass telling me I dont understand the second world . I have spent a good part of my life studying ww2. You want to inform me about the siege of Metz and Ft Driant. You want to debate ww2 with me... bring it on Skippy. You are way out of you league on this one.

Read the list of casualties cradle.
Any of those countries among the allies other than Great Britain?

And they would have all died for nothing if the US hadn't entered the war. We'd all be speaking german and Japanese now unless the full weight of the American people and industry hadn't taken up the fight.

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

At the cost of millions of soviet lives.

Indeed, ballpark 20 million lives.

With huge loss of lives/soldiers and armor and munitions by the Germans.
Had not the Russian front sucked this energy out of the German juggernaut, and likewise the Brits held the channel/line, as well as the resistances across Europe and the ME, we'd have been too late.

Pain and sacrifice.

Yes, we were not alone.

Who do you think made the Russian resistance possible? You do remember the Lend Lease Act? Roosevelt gave the Russians 1 billion plus in aid. That is in 1941 dollars. The Russians suffered almost as much as Stalin dished out over his years as their benevolent murdering dictator. The Russians had to fight because they had no other option. They succeeded because they had the USA supplying their war effort.

The Brits also held on because of all of those supply convoys that FDR sent them. The little known story is how many of our merchant marine sailors went down with their ships when the German U boats caused horrific losses on these transports. We were not alone and neither were the Brits and the Soviets because of the USA. Speaking of the Lend Lease Act to the Soviets... only a tiny amount of that was ever repaid. How much that was depends on what source you want to trust.

All true. We were allies.

I'm not arguing that the US didn't play a critical role. Of course I agree with that.

My point was that we had allies who paid very, very dearly, thank god, else we'd have faced fascism across the world, very likely overtaking the US as well.

[cradleandshoot]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

What pain and sacrifice from what ally? I assume you are talking about Great Britain. You gots big brass telling me I dont understand the second world . I have spent a good part of my life studying ww2. You want to inform me about the siege of Metz and Ft Driant. You want to debate ww2 with me... bring it on Skippy. You are way out of you league on this one.

Read the list of casualties cradle.
Any of those countries among the allies other than Great Britain?

And they would have all died for nothing if the US hadn't entered the war. We'd all be speaking german and Japanese now unless the full weight of the American people and industry hadn't taken up the fight.

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

At the cost of millions of soviet lives.

Indeed, ballpark 20 million lives.

With huge loss of lives/soldiers and armor and munitions by the Germans.
Had not the Russian front sucked this energy out of the German juggernaut, and likewise the Brits held the channel/line, as well as the resistances across Europe and the ME, we'd have been too late.

Pain and sacrifice.

Yes, we were not alone.

Who do you think made the Russian resistance possible? You do remember the Lend Lease Act? Roosevelt gave the Russians 1 billion plus in aid. That is in 1941 dollars. The Russians suffered almost as much as Stalin dished out over his years as their benevolent murdering dictator. The Russians had to fight because they had no other option. They succeeded because they had the USA supplying their war effort.

The Brits also held on because of all of those supply convoys that FDR sent them. The little known story is how many of our merchant marine sailors went down with their ships when the German U boats caused horrific losses on these transports. We were not alone and neither were the Brits and the Soviets because of the USA. Speaking of the Lend Lease Act to the Soviets... only a tiny amount of that was ever repaid. How much that was depends on what source you want to trust.

All true. We were allies.

I'm not arguing that the US didn't play a critical role. Of course I agree with that.

My point was that we had allies who paid very, very dearly, thank god, else we'd have faced fascism across the world, very likely overtaking the US as well.

"All true. We were allies."

You do remember the Molotov Ribbentrop pact? Stalin allied himself with the Nazis way back in 1939. Those Soviets sure were the kind of ally you want on your side. Stalin could have cared less about Hitlers ambitions. It was a different story when Hitlers ambitions bit Stalin dead square in his arse. Stalin was such a great ally that he declared war on Japan after the USA had already done all the dirty work. That was quite the bit of opportunism on the part of Stalin. If the Soviet Union was really our ally, they were the worst ally the United States has ever had. Patton never trusted them and he knew of what he spoke.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... ugust-1939
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/patton.html

[MDlaxfan76]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

What pain and sacrifice from what ally? I assume you are talking about Great Britain. You gots big brass telling me I dont understand the second world . I have spent a good part of my life studying ww2. You want to inform me about the siege of Metz and Ft Driant. You want to debate ww2 with me... bring it on Skippy. You are way out of you league on this one.

Read the list of casualties cradle.
Any of those countries among the allies other than Great Britain?

And they would have all died for nothing if the US hadn't entered the war. We'd all be speaking german and Japanese now unless the full weight of the American people and industry hadn't taken up the fight.

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

At the cost of millions of soviet lives.

Indeed, ballpark 20 million lives.

With huge loss of lives/soldiers and armor and munitions by the Germans.
Had not the Russian front sucked this energy out of the German juggernaut, and likewise the Brits held the channel/line, as well as the resistances across Europe and the ME, we'd have been too late.

Pain and sacrifice.

Yes, we were not alone.

Who do you think made the Russian resistance possible? You do remember the Lend Lease Act? Roosevelt gave the Russians 1 billion plus in aid. That is in 1941 dollars. The Russians suffered almost as much as Stalin dished out over his years as their benevolent murdering dictator. The Russians had to fight because they had no other option. They succeeded because they had the USA supplying their war effort.

The Brits also held on because of all of those supply convoys that FDR sent them. The little known story is how many of our merchant marine sailors went down with their ships when the German U boats caused horrific losses on these transports. We were not alone and neither were the Brits and the Soviets because of the USA. Speaking of the Lend Lease Act to the Soviets... only a tiny amount of that was ever repaid. How much that was depends on what source you want to trust.

All true. We were allies.

I'm not arguing that the US didn't play a critical role. Of course I agree with that.

My point was that we had allies who paid very, very dearly, thank god, else we'd have faced fascism across the world, very likely overtaking the US as well.

"All true. We were allies."

You do remember the Molotov Ribbentrop pact? Stalin allied himself with the Nazis way back in 1939. Those Soviets sure were the kind of ally you want on your side. Stalin could have cared less about Hitlers ambitions. It was a different story when Hitlers ambitions bit Stalin dead square in his arse. Stalin was such a great ally that he declared war on Japan after the USA had already done all the dirty work. That was quite the bit of opportunism on the part of Stalin. If the Soviet Union was really our ally, they were the worst ally the United States has ever had. Patton never trusted them and he knew of what he spoke.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... ugust-1939
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/patton.html

Sure, and the Brits tried to appease Hitler as well.
And the French basically got rolled.
The Chinese got crushed. Check their #'s lost.

But to suggest our allies didn't sacrifice hugely, paying an enormous cost in the struggle against fascism and militarism, nationalism, is simply to ignore the history of what happened.

I'm not debating any smaller points you want to make, just your notion that our allies didn't sacrifice, thank god, enabling the US to gather its strength and ultimately succeed.

[cradleandshoot]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

What pain and sacrifice from what ally? I assume you are talking about Great Britain. You gots big brass telling me I dont understand the second world . I have spent a good part of my life studying ww2. You want to inform me about the siege of Metz and Ft Driant. You want to debate ww2 with me... bring it on Skippy. You are way out of you league on this one.

Read the list of casualties cradle.
Any of those countries among the allies other than Great Britain?

And they would have all died for nothing if the US hadn't entered the war. We'd all be speaking german and Japanese now unless the full weight of the American people and industry hadn't taken up the fight.

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

At the cost of millions of soviet lives.

Indeed, ballpark 20 million lives.

With huge loss of lives/soldiers and armor and munitions by the Germans.
Had not the Russian front sucked this energy out of the German juggernaut, and likewise the Brits held the channel/line, as well as the resistances across Europe and the ME, we'd have been too late.

Pain and sacrifice.

Yes, we were not alone.

Who do you think made the Russian resistance possible? You do remember the Lend Lease Act? Roosevelt gave the Russians 1 billion plus in aid. That is in 1941 dollars. The Russians suffered almost as much as Stalin dished out over his years as their benevolent murdering dictator. The Russians had to fight because they had no other option. They succeeded because they had the USA supplying their war effort.

The Brits also held on because of all of those supply convoys that FDR sent them. The little known story is how many of our merchant marine sailors went down with their ships when the German U boats caused horrific losses on these transports. We were not alone and neither were the Brits and the Soviets because of the USA. Speaking of the Lend Lease Act to the Soviets... only a tiny amount of that was ever repaid. How much that was depends on what source you want to trust.

All true. We were allies.

I'm not arguing that the US didn't play a critical role. Of course I agree with that.

My point was that we had allies who paid very, very dearly, thank god, else we'd have faced fascism across the world, very likely overtaking the US as well.

"All true. We were allies."

You do remember the Molotov Ribbentrop pact? Stalin allied himself with the Nazis way back in 1939. Those Soviets sure were the kind of ally you want on your side. Stalin could have cared less about Hitlers ambitions. It was a different story when Hitlers ambitions bit Stalin dead square in his arse. Stalin was such a great ally that he declared war on Japan after the USA had already done all the dirty work. That was quite the bit of opportunism on the part of Stalin. If the Soviet Union was really our ally, they were the worst ally the United States has ever had. Patton never trusted them and he knew of what he spoke.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... ugust-1939
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/patton.html

Sure, and the Brits tried to appease Hitler as well.
And the French basically got rolled.
The Chinese got crushed. Check their #'s lost.

But to suggest our allies didn't sacrifice hugely, paying an enormous cost in the struggle against fascism and militarism, nationalism, is simply to ignore the history of what happened.

I'm not debating any smaller points you want to make, just your notion that our allies didn't sacrifice, thank god, enabling the US to gather its strength and ultimately succeed.

I understand where you are coming from. IMO and in the minds of many others, the Soviet Union was not what I would consider a true ally. Circumstances forced us into fighting the same enemy. That was all we had in common. In 1939 Stalin was willing to play footsies with Hitler so they could divide up Poland. Did the Soviets suffer terrible losses? Yes they did. To correct you, all of Great Britain did not want to appease Hitler. Neville Chamberlain wanted that to be his baby. Old Winnie practically choked on his cigar when Chamberlain declared "peace in our time" You mention the French. Which French? Are you including the Vichy French government that fought on the side of Hitler. Good ole Marshall Petain the loyal Frenchman he was. You mention the Chinese, they suffered probably more than any nation in WW2. If you mention the rape of Nanking today nobody would know what your talking about. On a technical point you are correct. Our fellow allies, and I refuse to include Stalin as an ally, suffered greatly. In the big picture, despite all they suffered, they were incapable of doing the heavy lifting needed to win the war. On the eastern front Stalin could only thank his lucky stars that an idiot like Hitler was leading the strategy. Had Hitler abandoned the attacks on Stalingrad and Moscow, which were strategically useless, and concentrated on the oilfields in the Caucasus region... oil and gas is what the Germans needed more than anything. Time to end this hijack. I realized I was going off on a tangent.

[MDlaxfan76]

No worries, cradle, this discussion began with the notion that America was solely responsible for the defeat of Germany and Japan, as if there weren't many others who fought before us and then with us, suffering mightily.

Of course not all Brits supported Prime Minister Chamberlain, but it was actually a considerably more popular position than we'd like to think, indeed had not Edward VIII not abdicated the throne, Great Britain might well have had a pro Nazi supporter on the throne. British sentiment was largely that Hitler could be appeased with some relatively small concessions, Rhineland, Sudetenland, and part of Czechoslovakia...it was only when it became reality that Hitler's aspirations were to 'take it all', with the taking Poland that the British sentiment moved. Likewise, there was a very large strain of pro Nazi sentiment here in the US, a major factor in Roosevelt's inability to bring the US more forcefully into the effort, until Pearl Harbor propelled American sentiment forward. Obviously I'm not suggesting that the Vichy were our allies, (as I said, France got rolled), but many French were very much so. Indeed, we had allies all over the world. Yes, including the Chinese. Absolutely brutal.

I'd agree that the Soviets, if not the Russian people, were allies of convenience. However, had they not sacrificed so much, the end game would have cost way more American lives to have achieved victory, assuming that would have even remained possible.

The point was simply a pushback against the triumphalist American mythology of that conflict as solely an American struggle and victory.

[runrussellrun]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

What pain and sacrifice from what ally? I assume you are talking about Great Britain. You gots big brass telling me I dont understand the second world . I have spent a good part of my life studying ww2. You want to inform me about the siege of Metz and Ft Driant. You want to debate ww2 with me... bring it on Skippy. You are way out of you league on this one.

Read the list of casualties cradle.
Any of those countries among the allies other than Great Britain?

And they would have all died for nothing if the US hadn't entered the war. We'd all be speaking german and Japanese now unless the full weight of the American people and industry hadn't taken up the fight.

And even though they have not been our ally since the war - the fact that the Soviet Union fought along that Eastern Front (that Hitler unwisely opened) and suffered immense losses certainly were a factor in our assistance arriving before Europe was totally lost. As well as serving as a giant sink of resources for the Germans.

At the cost of millions of soviet lives.

Indeed, ballpark 20 million lives.

With huge loss of lives/soldiers and armor and munitions by the Germans.
Had not the Russian front sucked this energy out of the German juggernaut, and likewise the Brits held the channel/line, as well as the resistances across Europe and the ME, we'd have been too late.

Pain and sacrifice.

Yes, we were not alone.

Who do you think made the Russian resistance possible? You do remember the Lend Lease Act? Roosevelt gave the Russians 1 billion plus in aid. That is in 1941 dollars. The Russians suffered almost as much as Stalin dished out over his years as their benevolent murdering dictator. The Russians had to fight because they had no other option. They succeeded because they had the USA supplying their war effort.

The Brits also held on because of all of those supply convoys that FDR sent them. The little known story is how many of our merchant marine sailors went down with their ships when the German U boats caused horrific losses on these transports. We were not alone and neither were the Brits and the Soviets because of the USA. Speaking of the Lend Lease Act to the Soviets... only a tiny amount of that was ever repaid. How much that was depends on what source you want to trust.

All true. We were allies.

I'm not arguing that the US didn't play a critical role. Of course I agree with that.

My point was that we had allies who paid very, very dearly, thank god, else we'd have faced fascism across the world, very likely overtaking the US as well.

"All true. We were allies."

You do remember the Molotov Ribbentrop pact? Stalin allied himself with the Nazis way back in 1939. Those Soviets sure were the kind of ally you want on your side. Stalin could have cared less about Hitlers ambitions. It was a different story when Hitlers ambitions bit Stalin dead square in his arse. Stalin was such a great ally that he declared war on Japan after the USA had already done all the dirty work. That was quite the bit of opportunism on the part of Stalin. If the Soviet Union was really our ally, they were the worst ally the United States has ever had. Patton never trusted them and he knew of what he spoke.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... ugust-1939
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/patton.html

Patton !

Another p.o.s. "leader". ....

what kind of leader fires, charges, & kills, his fellow US soldiers & citizens. Or, was the Doug McCarther that attacked fellow soldiers at the Annacosta river camp? (bonus march ) tRump hasn't ordered US soldiers to attack US citizens yet......Hoover was an awesome POTUSA

[cradleandshoot]

No worries, cradle, this discussion began with the notion that America was solely responsible for the defeat of Germany and Japan, as if there weren't many others who fought before us and then with us, suffering mightily.

Of course not all Brits supported Prime Minister Chamberlain, but it was actually a considerably more popular position than we'd like to think, indeed had not Edward VIII not abdicated the throne, Great Britain might well have had a pro Nazi supporter on the throne. British sentiment was largely that Hitler could be appeased with some relatively small concessions, Rhineland, Sudetenland, and part of Czechoslovakia...it was only when it became reality that Hitler's aspirations were to 'take it all', with the taking Poland that the British sentiment moved. Likewise, there was a very large strain of pro Nazi sentiment here in the US, a major factor in Roosevelt's inability to bring the US more forcefully into the effort, until Pearl Harbor propelled American sentiment forward. Obviously I'm not suggesting that the Vichy were our allies, (as I said, France got rolled), but many French were very much so. Indeed, we had allies all over the world. Yes, including the Chinese. Absolutely brutal.

I'd agree that the Soviets, if not the Russian people, were allies of convenience. However, had they not sacrificed so much, the end game would have cost way more American lives to have achieved victory, assuming that would have even remained possible.

The point was simply a pushback against the triumphalist American mythology of that conflict as solely an American struggle and victory.

I understand you point. We could go back and forth here forever. The hypotheticals and different interpretations and opinions are almost limitless. My favorite hypothetical is what would have happened if Hitler had not opened up an eastern front and concentrated on defeating Great Britain instead?

[6ftstick]

No worries, cradle, this discussion began with the notion that America was solely responsible for the defeat of Germany and Japan, as if there weren't many others who fought before us and then with us, suffering mightily.

Of course not all Brits supported Prime Minister Chamberlain, but it was actually a considerably more popular position than we'd like to think, indeed had not Edward VIII not abdicated the throne, Great Britain might well have had a pro Nazi supporter on the throne. British sentiment was largely that Hitler could be appeased with some relatively small concessions, Rhineland, Sudetenland, and part of Czechoslovakia...it was only when it became reality that Hitler's aspirations were to 'take it all', with the taking Poland that the British sentiment moved. Likewise, there was a very large strain of pro Nazi sentiment here in the US, a major factor in Roosevelt's inability to bring the US more forcefully into the effort, until Pearl Harbor propelled American sentiment forward. Obviously I'm not suggesting that the Vichy were our allies, (as I said, France got rolled), but many French were very much so. Indeed, we had allies all over the world. Yes, including the Chinese. Absolutely brutal.

I'd agree that the Soviets, if not the Russian people, were allies of convenience. However, had they not sacrificed so much, the end game would have cost way more American lives to have achieved victory, assuming that would have even remained possible.

The point was simply a pushback against the triumphalist American mythology of that conflict as solely an American struggle and victory.

I understand you point. We could go back and forth here forever. The hypotheticals and different interpretations and opinions are almost limitless. My favorite hypothetical is what would have happened if Hitler had not opened up an eastern front and concentrated on defeating Great Britain instead?

This was my original post

75 years ago today The Nazis surrendered. VE day

My apologies to all our posters who deny American exceptionalism.

It was celebrating the anniversary of the end of a bitter struggle.

Where does that say we won the war alone.

[MDlaxfan76]

Under the banner off National Security

75 years ago today The Nazis surrendered. VE day

My apologies to all our posters who deny American exceptionalism.

sorry, what do you actually think "exceptionalism" means, 6ft?

Were we alone in that fight?

Of course, there is much to love about our country, its ideals, even its myths, and certainly much to honor in those who have sacrificed for generations on behalf of these ideals and their fellow citizens.

To say that America has demonstrated strength and resilience, at times in extraordinary ways, is certainly true. I think most of us, probably all of us on these threads, are thankful to be Americans.

Unfortunately, the chest thumping also has an ugly side.
And, it also has some real flaws in logic and historical perspective.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/10/11/th ... tionalism/

And this was my response, 6ft.

It was the 'deny American exceptionalism" crack that provoked the response, not the celebration of VE Day, which is very much celebrated by our allies as well.

[MDlaxfan76]

Under the banner off National Security

75 years ago today The Nazis surrendered. VE day

My apologies to all our posters who deny American exceptionalism.

sorry, what do you actually think "exceptionalism" means, 6ft?

Were we alone in that fight?

Of course, there is much to love about our country, its ideals, even its myths, and certainly much to honor in those who have sacrificed for generations on behalf of these ideals and their fellow citizens.

To say that America has demonstrated strength and resilience, at times in extraordinary ways, is certainly true. I think most of us, probably all of us on these threads, are thankful to be Americans.

Unfortunately, the chest thumping also has an ugly side.
And, it also has some real flaws in logic and historical perspective.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/10/11/th ... tionalism/

"Were we alone in that fight?"

We were more alone than you would think. Who do you think armed Great Britain and sustained their war effort? Where did the Brits come up with all of those M4 Shermans they used in their armored units. What nation fought WW2 on 2 fronts at the same time. How much help did Great Britain give us in the Pacific campaign? Who do you think supplied ammunition and materiel to the soviets via the Murmansk run supply chain. You need to buck up on your WW2 history there. We technically may not have been alone but the USA was the driving force providing the bombs, bullets and material that won the war. Those Higgins boats that made D Day possible, where did they come from? We may not have been alone, but we were as close to alone as you can get.

And simultaneously driving the Japanese back across the Pacific. Nahh nothing exceptional there.

A little demonstration of American exceptionalism the day the Japanese surrendered.


la-fg-japan-surrender-11.jpg

cradle jumped in, and you responded to him, then me again.

My point was simply that we were not alone, not that we weren't essential to the allied effort's success.

[MDlaxfan76]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

And of course our Floridian friend couldn't help himself and jumped in making it a partisan, ideological discussion...

cradle, my crack about "how little you actually understand about the full history of that war..." was a little rough, but you had made a quite similar crack just a few posts earlier. I've bolded that crack.

6ft, I don't know exactly what you mean by 'exceptionalism' which is why I asked, pointing out that we were certainly not exceptional in the sense of alone.

IMO, too many of those who bandy those words around mean that America has an exclusive claim on 'good', and resent any threat to the notion that our history is replete with less positive experiences, whether here at home or abroad.

IMO, that set of views is the antithesis of what actually makes us special, if you will, 'exceptional'.

[cradleandshoot]

and all of the leftist prattle about racism, sexism, and all the other ism's that the Left gets their panties twisted in a bunch about won't even merit one sentence.

Huh, you gotta make everything a right vs. left, an us vs. them. It must be exhausting hating a huge group of people that much all the time. It's also amazing that we did so many great things back then with a self-described Liberal in charge of the country.

Yup, ole LIB Roosevelt was the guy in charge...

cradle and 6ft,
Fascinating how little you actually understand about the full history of that war, the pain and sacrifices of our allies in the fight.

America turned the tide for sure.
Major economic power turned to war time production with no bombing of factories and infrastructure or mainland civilian lives lost... due to distance.

But if you think we were alone in our sacrifices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

And of course our Floridian friend couldn't help himself and jumped in making it a partisan, ideological discussion...

cradle, my crack about "how little you actually understand about the full history of that war..." was a little rough, but you had made a quite similar crack just a few posts earlier.

I understand that. I spent a good part of my HS years and beyond voraciously reading and studying about WW2. I have always considered my self a bit of an expert on the subject. I use to have a journal I kept before I went into the Army. I enjoyed chatting with WW2 vets about their experience during the war. I felt fortunate enough that some of them thought enough of my youthful and sincere interest to share stuff with me they had never shared with their families. I often times by memory recorded what they told me in that journal. My Uncle Luke passed away in 1972. My dad use to rib him about telling about how he won his purple heart. My Uncle was an aircraft mechanic stationed on the Island of Tinian. He was also a very talented artist who would paint some of those fancy pictures on the side of the planes that would come and go. After painting one picture he backed up to look at it and fell off of the scaffold and hurt his back. While he was laid up in the hospital he wound up with a purple heart.

My dad would always rib him about telling his purple heart story. My dad died with German shrapnel in his back. The medic could not dig it out and sutured his back with tiny safety pins and sulfa powder. My dad refused his purple heart. he never felt worthy of it. he watched too many of his buddies get torn to shreds. To an infantry soldier the purple heart had significant meaning. If you had not earned it you would not wear it. I spent countless hours trying to drag memories out of my dad. Bits and pieces were all I ever got. While I was in the army my dad threw my notebook out with alot of my other stuff. The only time I ever remember getting upset at my dad. To him it was just a box of junk.

[MDlaxfan76]

ohhh my, much worse than my mom tossing out the boxes of comic books I'd acquired in my youth!
Bummer to lose that journal, cradle.

Stay safe, be well.

[cradleandshoot]

ohhh my, much worse than my mom tossing out the boxes of comic books I'd acquired in my youth!
Bummer to lose that journal, cradle.

Stay safe, be well.

It was a bummer indeed. One time I asked my dad what he remembered about the siege of Metz. His face went blank and he said I don't remember that. I said dad, I was reading about the history of your unit, you were there. He responded again that he did not remember. The siege of Metz is often called the only battle that Patton ever lost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Driant

Shortly after that nightmare ended in early December my dads unit in the 5th infantry was scheduled for R and R. There was a funny thing that happened before that. Some little thing called the bulge. My dad wound up being thrown back into the meatgrinder. His battalion made their first counter attack south of Bastogne on Christmas eve 1944. They were never relieved of front line combat operations until early February 1945. Funny how they were all told the war would be over by Christmas...

[old salt]

Under the banner off National Security

75 years ago today The Nazis surrendered. VE day

My apologies to all our posters who deny American exceptionalism.

sorry, what do you actually think "exceptionalism" means, 6ft?

Were we alone in that fight?

Of course, there is much to love about our country, its ideals, even its myths, and certainly much to honor in those who have sacrificed for generations on behalf of these ideals and their fellow citizens.

To say that America has demonstrated strength and resilience, at times in extraordinary ways, is certainly true. I think most of us, probably all of us on these threads, are thankful to be Americans.

Unfortunately, the chest thumping also has an ugly side.
And, it also has some real flaws in logic and historical perspective.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/10/11/th ... tionalism/

And this was my response, 6ft.

It was the 'deny American exceptionalism" crack that provoked the response, not the celebration of VE Day, which is very much celebrated by our allies as well.

An unconditional positive statement about the USA cannot be allowed to stand without shade. [Hate America First]