All things CoronaVirus

[jhu72]

To the extent any one cares:

New polling:

@MorningConsult: 76% say social distancing should continue; 14% say it should stop

@Reuters: 72% say people should stay home until health officials say it's safe

@NavigatorSurvey: 62% worried social distancing will end too soon; 26% worried it will go on too long

Pretty good majorities suggesting that caution is the appropriate step.

Yup, and I bet not one of those 72-76% think they are being held at home against their will.

Well, to the extent public opinion is the vanguard, it sure suggests that the Governors' orders are appropriate and reasonable time, place and manner restrictions on the individual exercise of certain ordinary liberties. The interesting sub-issue would be to get polling or numbers on who the 14%, 18% and 26% support in the 2020 presidential election. It might reinforce the notion that the "reopen now demonstrations" are really in service to a candidate's electoral interests. Umm, you know what I mean?

I am not sure you need that data. I thought the signs at the Michigan Trump Presidential Rally were pretty clear.

[tech37]

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01098-x

I posted this Swedish interview the other day. The head health guy in Sweden is being pretty open about what he is doing and why. He still thinks it is the right plan.

He's waaaaaay behind at halftime. Up to 192 deaths per million pop -- that is 3X Denmark and 6X Norway. UW is projecting Sweden is still three weeks from the peak. UW projecting 9,200 deaths for Sweden -- which would be 900 deaths per million pop. For reference, Italy is currently at 415.

He's betting that he'll win in the second half -- because Sweden will have developed herd immunity sooner than other countries. Very much TBD.

Yes. It remains to be seen. The philosophy seems to be, "we will let some of these old people die off and hopefully the younger people will develop some immunity". The question seems to be what is an acceptable number of deaths?... for the greater good.

Of course that's the philosophy but in order to save the economy in long run...that is the reason.

Also in general, I expect Swedes are healthier than say Italians. I bet that fact weighed in favor of their decision/approach.

[RedFromMI]

We have a lawsuit:

Wisconsin GOPers Sue State’s Top Health Officials For Extending Stay-At-Home Order

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/wisc ... home-covid

The legal effort is being spearheaded by Speaker Robin Vos (R) and Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R).

Training particular fire on Andrea Palm, Wisconsin’s secretary-designee of the Department of Health Services, the Republicans argue that she was acting by “administrative fiat” when she extended the order to May 26.

The legislature is seeking a temporary injunction to halt Palm’s extension, ordered on April 16 and set to go into effect on April 24.

“Purporting to act under color of State law, an unelected, unconfirmed cabinet secretary has laid claim to a suite of czar-like powers — unlimited in scope and indefinite in duration — over the people of Wisconsin,” said the complaint.

In her emergency order, Palm claimed authority from the Wisconsin statute that governs the the health department’s authority during communicable disease crises. One line that she cited says that “The department may authorize and implement all emergency measures necessary to control communicable diseases.”

Vos is the guy that (complete self unaware) gave the interview on primary election day 4/7 garbed completely in PPE about how safe in-person voting was...

[Cooter]

We have a lawsuit:

Wisconsin GOPers Sue State’s Top Health Officials For Extending Stay-At-Home Order

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/wisc ... home-covid

The legal effort is being spearheaded by Speaker Robin Vos (R) and Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R).

Training particular fire on Andrea Palm, Wisconsin’s secretary-designee of the Department of Health Services, the Republicans argue that she was acting by “administrative fiat” when she extended the order to May 26.

Hurrah!

[Brooklyn]

Yes. It remains to be seen. The philosophy seems to be, "we will let some of these old people die off and hopefully the younger people will develop some immunity". The question seems to be what is an acceptable number of deaths?... for the greater good.

Yup. Today's version of Republican Aktion 4. This coming from the people who proclaim themselves to be "pro life" while their Republican death panels perform their true agenda.

[Brooklyn]

Hurrah!

And as soon as they get sick because they disobeyed the law they will cry for help from the government:

[wgdsr]

Yes. It remains to be seen. The philosophy seems to be, "we will let some of these old people die off and hopefully the younger people will develop some immunity". The question seems to be what is an acceptable number of deaths?... for the greater good.

Yup. Today's version of Republican Aktion 4. This coming from the people who proclaim themselves to be "pro life" while their Republican death panels perform their true agenda.

or the social democrats who have basically run things there for over 100 years. same difference, i guess.

[MDlaxfan76]

For those who were earlier 'trolling', along with Trump, on how Muslims would be responding to the pandemic though this holy period of Ramadan.

Two articles ICJS.org is sharing:

https://theconversation.com/how-coronav ... ves-133925

https://www.middleeasteye.net/discover/ ... d-covid-19

They're focused worldwide, but some references to US mosques and practices.

Here's a fun one that's more local to my Maryland area, back in 2017.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/discover/ ... d-covid-19

Whatever your faith background, you may find these interesting.
And in many ways, despite the obvious cultural differences, quite familiar.

[Peter Brown]

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01098-x

I posted this Swedish interview the other day. The head health guy in Sweden is being pretty open about what he is doing and why. He still thinks it is the right plan.

He's waaaaaay behind at halftime. Up to 192 deaths per million pop -- that is 3X Denmark and 6X Norway. UW is projecting Sweden is still three weeks from the peak. UW projecting 9,200 deaths for Sweden -- which would be 900 deaths per million pop. For reference, Italy is currently at 415.

He's betting that he'll win in the second half -- because Sweden will have developed herd immunity sooner than other countries. Very much TBD.

can anyone explain why American Democrats are so desirous of locking everyone down? It's this weird fetish I see in so many posts here, all by the usual suspects, which demand no economic activity indefinitely, even though so much of the hit in this country is really in just two states, NY and NJ. You realize that if this pandemic was mostly only in Montana and Idaho, no one from NY and NJ would demand anything at all...

In ggait's post above, it seems that the excitement leaps off the page about Sweden's 'deaths per million' and 'it's halftime', because the Swedes simply wouldn't do as demanded and instead trusted their citizens.

One, it ain't halftime in Sweden; it's one minute in a 60-minute deal; it takes years to get accurate results and make solid analysis. Two, Sweden will do what's right for Sweden; it definitely doesn't need American Democrats shouting at them to shut off their economy and tell their kids to stop going to school.

Speaking of, your favorite governor, Ron DeSantis, came out yesterday and told everyone that Florida is fine.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/20 ... the-curve/

That article (by a foe of DeSantis here in Florida) ought to tile up the same ninnies.

[MDlaxfan76]

more trolling.

[wgdsr]

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01098-x

I posted this Swedish interview the other day. The head health guy in Sweden is being pretty open about what he is doing and why. He still thinks it is the right plan.

He's waaaaaay behind at halftime. Up to 192 deaths per million pop -- that is 3X Denmark and 6X Norway. UW is projecting Sweden is still three weeks from the peak. UW projecting 9,200 deaths for Sweden -- which would be 900 deaths per million pop. For reference, Italy is currently at 415.

He's betting that he'll win in the second half -- because Sweden will have developed herd immunity sooner than other countries. Very much TBD.

Yes. It remains to be seen. The philosophy seems to be, "we will let some of these old people die off and hopefully the younger people will develop some immunity". The question seems to be what is an acceptable number of deaths?... for the greater good.

Of course that's the philosophy but in order to save the economy in long run...that is the reason.

Also in general, I expect Swedes are healthier than say Italians. I bet that fact weighed in favor of their decision/approach.

the health minister admits they haven't done as well as they'd like protecting the elderly in elderly facilities. that was one of their priorities at that start.
and placed a lot of the "authority" of behavior on the individual. evidently many of the population live alone, helping in a slow the spread regard.
they also shut down schools for those over 17 (including universities), banned gatherings over 50, encouraged work from home and discouraged non-essential travel.
also expect to be reaching "herd immunity" within weeks in stockholm and urban areas. that measure (60%) has not really been investigated thoroughly, other than models that inform them and an expectation that they are past the peak and seeing immunity as a reason for that (now as much as 20%?).
https://www.afr.com/policy/health-and-e ... 422-p54mbd
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/no-lock ... weeks.html
singapore... hasn't been mentioned around here much anymore after being a beacon. spiking on "opening up" after aggressive measures. now back to lockdowns. it also remains to be seen how all countries finish up on death tolls, economic tolls (and economic tolls on death tolls) after we're all said and done.
my point... we are all experts on what's right and moral today. with as quickly as the story, information, accuracy, narrative has changed with alarming frequency, (see just within the last 20 posts!!!) it will surprise me not at all that many of us will say after the fact ---"well, we didn't know that then, so that's why i was able to be judgy on that".

[Peter Brown]

my point... we are all experts on what's right and moral today. with as quickly as the story, information, accuracy, narrative has changed with alarming frequency, (see just within the last 20 posts!!!) it will surprise me not at all that many of us will say after the fact ---"well, we didn't know that then, so that's why i was able to be judgy on that".

+1,000!!!!!

who knows is correctamundo!

[MDlaxfan76]

my point... we are all experts on what's right and moral today. with as quickly as the story, information, accuracy, narrative has changed with alarming frequency, (see just within the last 20 posts!!!) it will surprise me not at all that many of us will say after the fact ---"well, we didn't know that then, so that's why i was able to be judgy on that".

+1,000!!!!!

who knows is correctamundo!

uh huh...tell it to Kemp, he says he didn't know until April that transmission could happen with asymptomatic carriers...'who knew?"

BTW, ggait has been very careful, each time, to point out that the Swedes have a theory of the case. He doesn't judge whether that theory will be borne out, just that, so far, the numbers are stacking up poorly. But it's indeed a 'marathon', so he allows for the possibility that their theory could ultimately be ok. I'd be willing to bet that it won't and perhaps he would as well, but he's just presenting the facts ma'am.

Others are describing the rationale more judgmentally, perhaps because there really are some knuckleheads who think we should just sacrifice older folks, say 50 and up to high early death rates...so that we can keep the economy cranking for everyone else...after all suicide hot lines are getting a whole lot of usage...

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01098-x

I posted this Swedish interview the other day. The head health guy in Sweden is being pretty open about what he is doing and why. He still thinks it is the right plan.

He's waaaaaay behind at halftime. Up to 192 deaths per million pop -- that is 3X Denmark and 6X Norway. UW is projecting Sweden is still three weeks from the peak. UW projecting 9,200 deaths for Sweden -- which would be 900 deaths per million pop. For reference, Italy is currently at 415.

He's betting that he'll win in the second half -- because Sweden will have developed herd immunity sooner than other countries. Very much TBD.

Yes. It remains to be seen. The philosophy seems to be, "we will let some of these old people die off and hopefully the younger people will develop some immunity". The question seems to be what is an acceptable number of deaths?... for the greater good.

Of course that's the philosophy but in order to save the economy in long run...that is the reason.

Also in general, I expect Swedes are healthier than say Italians. I bet that fact weighed in favor of their decision/approach.

the health minister admits they haven't done as well as they'd like protecting the elderly in elderly facilities. that was one of their priorities at that start.
and placed a lot of the "authority" of behavior on the individual. evidently many of the population live alone, helping in a slow the spread regard.
they also shut down schools for those over 17 (including universities), banned gatherings over 50, encouraged work from home and discouraged non-essential travel.
also expect to be reaching "herd immunity" within weeks in stockholm and urban areas. that measure (60%) has not really been investigated thoroughly, other than models that inform them and an expectation that they are past the peak and seeing immunity as a reason for that (now as much as 20%?).
https://www.afr.com/policy/health-and-e ... 422-p54mbd
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/no-lock ... weeks.html
singapore... hasn't been mentioned around here much anymore after being a beacon. spiking on "opening up" after aggressive measures. now back to lockdowns. it also remains to be seen how all countries finish up on death tolls, economic tolls (and economic tolls on death tolls) after we're all said and done.
my point... we are all experts on what's right and moral today. with as quickly as the story, information, accuracy, narrative has changed with alarming frequency, (see just within the last 20 posts!!!) it will surprise me not at all that many of us will say after the fact ---"well, we didn't know that then, so that's why i was able to be judgy on that".

I rely on public health officials and science. I pay very little attention to politicians and talking heads on political entertainment shows. Then I use common sense and some level of intellect. We all want to get back to work but many companies are running. What is being hammered are retail and leisure enterprises, largely. And anything that has mass consumer gatherings.

[njbill]

Also in general, I expect Swedes are healthier than say Italians. I bet that fact weighed in favor of their decision/approach.

Fredo is holding on line 2 for you, and he doesn’t sound happy.

[Cooter]

Hurrah!

And as soon as they get sick because they disobeyed the law they will cry for help from the government:

I think in shutting a state down for a period of a month, the state legislature should be allowed to vote on it.

[MDlaxfan76]

Hurrah!

And as soon as they get sick because they disobeyed the law they will cry for help from the government:

I think in shutting a state down for a period of a month, the state legislature should be allowed to vote on it.

pretty sure they're "allowed to vote on it"...question is where the power to address a pandemic resides. It's not as if the Governor wasn't elected, appointing his/her public health officials...

but vote away.

[Cooter]

Hurrah!

And as soon as they get sick because they disobeyed the law they will cry for help from the government:

I think in shutting a state down for a period of a month, the state legislature should be allowed to vote on it.

pretty sure they're "allowed to vote on it"...question is where the power to address a pandemic resides. It's not as if the Governor wasn't elected, appointing his/her public health officials...

but vote away.

I think in shutting down a state for a period of a month, the state legislature should be allowed to vote upon the action and decide whether it is done.

[tech37]

Also in general, I expect Swedes are healthier than say Italians. I bet that fact weighed in favor of their decision/approach.

Fredo is holding on line 2 for you, and he doesn’t sound happy.

I know it's stereotypical, generalized, and probably not PC to many here but the fact remains, Swedes are a pragmatic lot living a pragmatic culture as compared...

Put another way, Greta Thunberg is Swedish, not Italian. Is that worse?

[MDlaxfan76]

Hurrah!

And as soon as they get sick because they disobeyed the law they will cry for help from the government:

I think in shutting a state down for a period of a month, the state legislature should be allowed to vote on it.

pretty sure they're "allowed to vote on it"...question is where the power to address a pandemic resides. It's not as if the Governor wasn't elected, appointing his/her public health officials...

but vote away.

I think in shutting down a state for a period of a month, the state legislature should be allowed to vote upon the action and decide whether it is done.

yes, I understood that to be your meaning.
But why exactly?

Each State has it's own constitutional processes, with particular powers enumerated and agreed upon, as well as processes to change that. Including recalls.

Is it less a constitutional matter and it's simply your gut that you want the people to have more of a voice and think the state legislature reps are more representative of the people than the Governor?

If that's the direction, why not a referendum?