All things CoronaVirus

[runrussellrun]

It is sometimes difficult to understand the deficiencies in morals, ethics, character, and intellect that would permit a person to become a Trump cultist, but the entire hydroxychloroquine fiasco is puzzling even in that context.

Fox News has fallen out of love with hydroxychloroquine. After weeks of unrelenting coverage hyping the antimalarial drug as a potential game-changing treatment for the coronavirus, the network has all but stopped mentioning it on its airwaves. So has President Donald Trump.

The [quiet] abandonment of hydroxychloroquine comes as studies indicate it is not an effective treatment against the coronavirus. A French study found last week that the drug does not help patients with the virus. And on Tuesday, a study of hundreds of patents at US Veterans Health Administration medical centers found that patients who took hydroxychloroquine were no less likely to need ventilation and had higher death rates than those who didn't take the drug.

"Will anyone who breathlessly pitched hydroxychloroquine as a miracle drug show a modicum of regret or even self-awareness over this? Doubtful," The Daily Beast's Sam Stein predicted. "More likely is they'll ignore the study entirely." Stein appears to have been right on the money.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/media/fo ... index.html

As with any cult, dishonesty is key. We have seen such dishonesty from Trump cultists on our own little forum.

What is truly dangerous about the Trump cult is their shamelessness. The hydroxychloroquine fiasco is just a small example. Trump’s willful recklessness, incompetence, and malignant narcissism has already resulted in the needless deaths of tens of thousands of Americans. Yet, do we even sense any remorse or shame from those who have consistently supported Trump? I don’t.

Which begs this question ... what if Trump somehow steals the election this November and eventually gains the authoritarian power that he seems to admire so much in Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, or Kim Jong Un? What if he and his cultists actually start killing people intentionally, like they’re already beginning to do during this pandemic? If Trump starts making people like Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and various reporters disappear, will his cultists show any remorse or shame?

Trump has already corrupted the Department of Justice, the State Department, and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. He has been doing his best to corrupt the Department of Defense. He long ago corrupted and subjugated the Republican Party.

Trump already believes he can get away with shooting someone on Fifth Avenue. He apparently thinks he can get away with killing tens of thousands of Americans during the pandemic. His gun-toting cultists are apparently willing to trade people’s lives for profit (“There are more important things than living.”).

So, if Trump somehow manages to stay in power, what will prevent Trump and his cultists from beginning to kill their perceived enemies?

Shame?

Remorse?

Compassion?

Empathy?

We see their shamelessness in all the “smaller” things. The hydroxychloroquine fiasco is just one example. Even on our own forum, we have seen his cultists argue that it would be worth some American deaths to open up commerce. They continue to support Trump, sometimes while denying they are supporting him.

And all with a degree of shamelessness that is difficult to understand. What will that shamelessness empower them to do next?

DocBarrister

is it even possible this post could be more hypocritical?

see mods,i didn't even call him a hypocrite.

I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but what is doc saying that is hypocritical?
I think part of it belongs on a different thread, but I'm not following your point....yet.

"study" that gives nothing more than a data point. info collected on patients that had utilized different treatment options.
not a randomized double blind trial, not even a trial at all.
300 patients go into a hospital. 100 of them don't progress to warrant resort treatment options. they recover nicely with normal protocols. vast vast majority are released. thankfully.
other 200 require or at least by a dr's measure need some other intervention to be tried. hcq or hcq + z are initiated. not as many recover.

comorbitities also slanted.

ipso facto hcq is killing people, push own political agenda. conveniently forget that many arguments were made by author that non-legitimate trials/studies were pushing a political agenda for opposition. i can only give some benefit of the doubt that he didn't bother to read the study, though i'm not sure if that's better. the media has done it as well.

how possible, or rather likely, is this "study" not really indicative of anything at all given its construct? but let's headline what works for my side, and throw in the garden variety invective. advancing the discussion fo sho.

rinse and repeat.

" dude.....mahhnN.....like, look,....the science is settled. 97% of scienctists agree.......social distancing IS the reason why. 100% "

Where have we heard similar rhetoric? If you go out, for a walk,,,,,,,and aren't wearing a mask.....you support tRump tv show guy. Because YOU said so.

If more and more people are testing positive, or, more importantly, anti bodie carriers how in the world can you tell us, to our faces, that something implemented 30 something days ago IS the reason why?

Climate change

Social distortion/distancing

where you are NEVER wrong.

[jhu72]

Earliest US COVID death occurred in California on February 6th. Weeks earlier than previously thought. Similar cases are likely to be found by coroners in Washington and New York.

[runrussellrun]

Yo, a fan, What the heck yippee Kai-ae mother you know what-er! Your boy is reopening your state!

https://www.cpr.org/2020/04/20/as-color ... -marathon/

Where’s the outrage!!!

Fake Petey Brown -- if you bothered to read rather than troll, here's what you would be in danger of learning.

Colorado is not "re-opening", you dummy. Colorado is easing certain parts of its current "stay-at-home" order.

The data shows that "stay-at-home" produced social distancing results of about 75-80% in Colorado.

The target of the new "safer-at-home" order is to maintain the level of SD at 65% or more. Anything below 65% would be projected to overwhelm the health care system. Which would then require full "stay-at-home" to be reinstated.

So you are beyond brain dead to bull shirt on here about how "closed" (75% SD) is now "re-opened" (65% SD target).

Sheesh!!!!

The data shows that "stay-at-home" produced social distancing results of about 75-80% in Colorado.

More lies. Stop lying.

You make a claim.....support it. Provide the "data". Everyone been "tested" in Colorado?

JUST STOP with the opinions, presented as facts. They are not. If they are, you should be able to provide said data.

The science is settled.......right pretends. gee, where have we heard THIS kind of rhetoric before.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiGdYjfYQeI

isn't that , essentially, what people who ignore, or block, are telling people who question their lies? yup.....oops, look, another 100 trillion negative suck social media hate spew....

carry on

[DMac]

Earliest US COVID death occurred in California on February 6th. Weeks earlier than previously thought. Similar cases are likely to be found by coroners in Washington and New York.

Am betting this comes as no surprise to you, 72.
I don't believe anything about the "beginning date", if you will, of all this. I'd bet it all started much, much earlier than what we've been led to believe. Had to have, IMHO.

[MDlaxfan76]

Actually, Trump’s potential authoritarianism and the coronavirus are entirely related.

Authoritarianism doesn’t arise during prosperity and calm. It arises during chaos and emergency. The Nazis first came to power during the Great Depression. They were elected to become the largest party in parliament in German federal elections in July 1932.

The coronavirus pandemic is not just a threat to Trump ... it is, perversely, an opportunity.

Does anyone here think Trump was kidding when he declared himself to have “total authority?”

DocBarrister

Trump is such a fascist! Except for these Democratic governors of course!

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/ ... t-of-hand/

I read the NR opinion piece (someone needs to tell the author that POTUS is the one who keeps calling it a WAR and the HIDDEN ENEMY).

Serious question to you and 6ft.

Exactly what Constitutionally guaranteed rights under the Bill of Rights are being abridged during this period?

I'm not seeing what 'rights' I've given up. I'm not seeing what rights the protesters in Michigan had taken away from them, either.

Please be specific as to which Amendment and the specific right abridged.

Presumably, that's a 'softball' question. You should be able to crush it out of the park.

Perhaps not for us personally, but for others:

...detaining sick people in government facilities, conscripting people to work, prohibiting the spreading of misinformation, and banning all people (citizens and noncitizens alike) from entering the country....efforts to roll back civil liberties face political opposition, but now bipartisan support for rights-restricting COVID-19 responses could smooth the path for constitutional erosion. James Madison predicted as much when he described constitutional rights as “parchment barriers,” easily transgressed when the majority is so inclined. And indeed, history presents numerous examples of liberty violations made in the face of security threats: the Alien and Sedition Acts signed into law by President John Adams, Japanese American internment camps during WWII, and the use of torture after 9/11. After the threat has subsided, Americans must recognize any constitutional violations for what they were, lest they become the new normal.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/608665/

Good article indeed highlighting the tension between civil liberties and public health.

But not so strong at where these temporary measures (In the US) actually cross the line. Their study shows that the majority (yes, we are a democracy) support sacrificing some temporary liberty in order to save others. As your quote indicates, very important that these sacrifices don't become "the new normal".

Thank goodness we don't have an authoritarian in the Oval Office...ohhh, wait...

But again, I'm not so sure that we've actually crossed the line.
Stay at home during a pandemic isn't really akin to a concentration camp, right?

[MDlaxfan76]

Earliest US COVID death occurred in California on February 6th. Weeks earlier than previously thought. Similar cases are likely to be found by coroners in Washington and New York.

Am betting this comes as no surprise to you, 72.
I don't believe anything about the "beginning date", if you will, of all this. I'd bet it all started much, much earlier than what we've been led to believe. Had to have, IMHO.

Not sure how "much, much earlier" you mean DMac.
The exponential function of the virus, the spread by asymptomatic carriers, doesn't require many seeds to become quite quickly huge #'s within weeks.

I'd be willing to bet that we had first seeds in December, prior to this being recognized as an epidemic level threat even in China. A lot of people traveling every day. Certainly seeds in early January...which would mean deaths weeks later. Just not as noticeable given normal flu deaths covering the beginning.

But it sure didn't become a problem only in March....

[runrussellrun]

Earliest US COVID death occurred in California on February 6th. Weeks earlier than previously thought. Similar cases are likely to be found by coroners in Washington and New York.

nonsense.....more lies. you post, several days back......clearly showed that SCIENCE proves that this thing has been around much longer., especially in California......but, actually focusing on the data/science, kind of blows up the "social distancing" IS the reason why the earth is flat, not cureved.......... don't it.

We predickted this narrative shift days ago........you and your truly are the standard bearers for the pretends.

carry on.

[jhu72]

Earliest US COVID death occurred in California on February 6th. Weeks earlier than previously thought. Similar cases are likely to be found by coroners in Washington and New York.

Am betting this comes as no surprise to you, 72.
I don't believe anything about the "beginning date", if you will, of all this. I'd bet it all started much, much earlier than what we've been led to believe. Had to have, IMHO.

Agreed. Every bit of retrospective science is pushing it in that direction.

[jhu72]

Earliest US COVID death occurred in California on February 6th. Weeks earlier than previously thought. Similar cases are likely to be found by coroners in Washington and New York.

Am betting this comes as no surprise to you, 72.
I don't believe anything about the "beginning date", if you will, of all this. I'd bet it all started much, much earlier than what we've been led to believe. Had to have, IMHO.

Not sure how "much, much earlier" you mean DMac.
The exponential function of the virus, the spread by asymptomatic carriers, doesn't require many seeds to become quite quickly huge #'s within weeks.

I'd be willing to bet that we had first seeds in December, prior to this being recognized as an epidemic level threat even in China. A lot of people traveling every day. Certainly seeds in early January...which would mean deaths weeks later. Just not as noticeable given normal flu deaths covering the beginning.

But it sure didn't become a problem only in March....

I would not be surprised to see it pushed into January in the US.

[Peter Brown]

Thank goodness we don't have an authoritarian in the Oval Office...ohhh, wait...

But again, I'm not so sure that we've actually crossed the line.
Stay at home during a pandemic isn't really akin to a concentration camp, right?

Ignoring the many instances where Trump does things which are the exact antithesis of fascism, couldn't one make a plausible argument that 'stay-at-home' is the same as House Arrest with no due process?

[Brooklyn]

Some righties are bemoaning what they perceive to be loss of "freedom" due to constraints imposed by the government. These people fail to understand that government has the power to restrict certain liberties in times of crisis under the common law concept of "police power of the state":

https://www.cato.org/blog/constitutiona ... -emergency


government power as at its legitimate zenith during a “hot” emergency, and (this is nothing new) grant maximum short‐​term deference to the authorities at such times, ordinarily robust constitutional rights bend at least until the immediate threat to life has passed.

Freedom to assemble and freedom to worship are central to the First Amendment, yet courts have upheld and would uphold bans on religious and political assemblies in times of epidemic. Second Amendment rights that courts would ordinarily enforce, such as to operate a gun store or get processing for a required permit, may also be suspended without a short‐​term judicial remedy. Indeed, the judicial remedy needed to enforce any right may fail if the courts are closed owing to an epidemic.

True emergencies do not last. When this is over, as it will be, both the courts’ vigilance and ours must be directed toward making sure the government promptly and fully relinquishes whatever emergency powers it has flexed.


As most of you know, Cato leans conservative-libertarian and even they know this is true. Of course, while many of those delusional righties above who are bemoaning loss of "freedom" to do the stupid things they want to do, the rest of us are concerned with being free of contamination from those half wits who refuse to adhere to the safety guidelines issued by the government. We represent the majority of the populace and we have the right to our freedoms as well.



Google & Wiki:


Police power (United States constitutional law) In United States constitutional law, police power is the capacity of the states to regulate behavior and enforce order within their territory for the betterment of the health, safety, morals, and general welfare of their inhabitants.

Police power (United States constitutional law) - Wikipedia


https://www.google.com/search?q=police+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

[MDlaxfan76]

Actually, Trump’s potential authoritarianism and the coronavirus are entirely related.

Authoritarianism doesn’t arise during prosperity and calm. It arises during chaos and emergency. The Nazis first came to power during the Great Depression. They were elected to become the largest party in parliament in German federal elections in July 1932.

The coronavirus pandemic is not just a threat to Trump ... it is, perversely, an opportunity.

Does anyone here think Trump was kidding when he declared himself to have “total authority?”

DocBarrister

Trump is such a fascist! Except for these Democratic governors of course!

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/ ... t-of-hand/

I read the NR opinion piece (someone needs to tell the author that POTUS is the one who keeps calling it a WAR and the HIDDEN ENEMY).

Serious question to you and 6ft.

Exactly what Constitutionally guaranteed rights under the Bill of Rights are being abridged during this period?

I'm not seeing what 'rights' I've given up. I'm not seeing what rights the protesters in Michigan had taken away from them, either.

Please be specific as to which Amendment and the specific right abridged.

Presumably, that's a 'softball' question. You should be able to crush it out of the park.

Freedom of association

Freedom of assembly

Freedom of Religion

Freedom of movement

Freedom to earn a living

Freedom to support my family

Go ahead and name the Amendments in specific, please.

But let's take a couple that are definitely in the Bill of Rights.

What does "association" mean in this context? Are you not able to join whatever group, trade union, political organization, etc you wish?

Are you not able to peaceably assemble, while maintaining distancing? This might be arguable, I think, with the strictest temporary quarantining orders, but I think you'll find that other rights, such as public safety have been found to be legitimate reasons to constrict these rights...but it needs to be well justified.

Can you not pray to whatever God you want?

Please tie these to the actual amendments and their language. And of course, none of these rights are absolute, they all work in context with one another and with the base Constitution.

Oh please can you be any more tiresome. You know exactly what I'm talking about. You're on another thread arguing gun control.

They're using drones to make us maintain our distance from one another.

They're discussing using temperature sensors without our knowledge

In front of his daughter they arrested, handcuffed and perp walked a father playing ball with her in an empty park.

They're spending half a TRILLION every two weeks WITHOUT VOTING. Unanimous consent!

Are you a fool.

hmmm, "without voting"???
Definitely don't follow that logic.

I didn't like the sound of arresting the dad, but we don't really no what sort of actual provocation was given for an arrest...On the other hand, of course, not the first time a guy with badge and a gun overstepped, right?

Using drones and temp sensors? Without our knowledge??? Do you know?
I do...and I'm cool with it. Just don't do it without public knowledge and oversight.
(I'm skeptical on any commercially available ability to do accurate enough temp sensing without specific knowledge, though; we'd know if we needed to be scanned in order to enter somewhere.)

Sheesh, we do all sorts of things in normal times to prevent people from endangering one another. I guess you have a Bill of Rights argument on all such, right? No speed limits? No food safety regs?

On the drones, I was PO'd that the civil libertarians got into such an uproar over using this technology to combat drug trafficking and murder in my city... how about you?

On gun control, yeah I'm with the majority of gun owners and even NRA members who favor regulating guns. Nothing to do with the virus, though.

[MDlaxfan76]

Thank goodness we don't have an authoritarian in the Oval Office...ohhh, wait...

But again, I'm not so sure that we've actually crossed the line.
Stay at home during a pandemic isn't really akin to a concentration camp, right?

Ignoring the many instances where Trump does things which are the exact antithesis of fascism, couldn't one make a plausible argument that 'stay-at-home' is the same as House Arrest with no due process?

Black Hole trolling again, PB?

Nope. Not the same. Not close.

[Brooklyn]

Ignoring the many instances where Trump does things which are the exact antithesis of fascism, couldn't one make a plausible argument that 'stay-at-home' is the same as House Arrest with no due process?

The ignorance shown by these right wing delusionals never ceases to amaze me. So many claim to be good Christians while failing to realize that their own Bible addresses the issue of quarantine several times:


https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical ... uarantine/

In Isaiah 26, the people of God are called to hide in their homes until a "fury" has passed, "Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by" (Isaiah 26:20).



https://www.google.com/search?q=quarant ... e&ie=UTF-8


Government has always had the inherent right to mandate quarantine and your Christian Bible requires adherence to such a rule when there is a crisis of that kind.

[RedFromMI]

Thank goodness we don't have an authoritarian in the Oval Office...ohhh, wait...

But again, I'm not so sure that we've actually crossed the line.
Stay at home during a pandemic isn't really akin to a concentration camp, right?

Ignoring the many instances where Trump does things which are the exact antithesis of fascism, couldn't one make a plausible argument that 'stay-at-home' is the same as House Arrest with no due process?

Black Hole trolling again, PB?

Nope. Not the same. Not close.

Especially since the stay at home orders have such exceptions as outdoor exercise, getting essentials like food. No one is going to stop you from going to a hospital.

And yes, some of the orders are more strict than others - primarily where there have been more problems due to earlier big outbreaks. But other places have had very limited orders, and there are differences in results that are beginning to emerge.

[jhu72]

Earliest US COVID death occurred in California on February 6th. Weeks earlier than previously thought. Similar cases are likely to be found by coroners in Washington and New York.

Am betting this comes as no surprise to you, 72.
I don't believe anything about the "beginning date", if you will, of all this. I'd bet it all started much, much earlier than what we've been led to believe. Had to have, IMHO.

Not sure how "much, much earlier" you mean DMac.
The exponential function of the virus, the spread by asymptomatic carriers, doesn't require many seeds to become quite quickly huge #'s within weeks.

I'd be willing to bet that we had first seeds in December, prior to this being recognized as an epidemic level threat even in China. A lot of people traveling every day. Certainly seeds in early January...which would mean deaths weeks later. Just not as noticeable given normal flu deaths covering the beginning.

But it sure didn't become a problem only in March....

I would not be surprised to see it pushed into January in the US.

Don't really see how this materially changes anything regarding the timeline of the infection moving into the US. Earliest known traveler with the disease is still mid - January. Would have to find a death or a case earlier than mid-January to change the overall earliest infection date in the US. All this report shows is there was community transmitted infection earlier than we thought previously.

[Peter Brown]

Thank goodness we don't have an authoritarian in the Oval Office...ohhh, wait...

But again, I'm not so sure that we've actually crossed the line.
Stay at home during a pandemic isn't really akin to a concentration camp, right?

Ignoring the many instances where Trump does things which are the exact antithesis of fascism, couldn't one make a plausible argument that 'stay-at-home' is the same as House Arrest with no due process?

Black Hole trolling again, PB?

Nope. Not the same. Not close.

That's not trolling...I'm legitimately asking. I think there's some validity to the premise, though I myself would not make it.

Bottom line, there is tension between public health and liberty, and that tension surely will accelerate in early May.

[MDlaxfan76]

Earliest US COVID death occurred in California on February 6th. Weeks earlier than previously thought. Similar cases are likely to be found by coroners in Washington and New York.

Am betting this comes as no surprise to you, 72.
I don't believe anything about the "beginning date", if you will, of all this. I'd bet it all started much, much earlier than what we've been led to believe. Had to have, IMHO.

Not sure how "much, much earlier" you mean DMac.
The exponential function of the virus, the spread by asymptomatic carriers, doesn't require many seeds to become quite quickly huge #'s within weeks.

I'd be willing to bet that we had first seeds in December, prior to this being recognized as an epidemic level threat even in China. A lot of people traveling every day. Certainly seeds in early January...which would mean deaths weeks later. Just not as noticeable given normal flu deaths covering the beginning.

But it sure didn't become a problem only in March....

I would not be surprised to see it pushed into January in the US.

Don't really see how this materially changes anything regarding the timeline of the infection moving into the US. Earliest known traveler with the disease is still mid - January. Would have to find a death or a case earlier than mid-January to change the overall earliest infection date in the US. All this report shows is there was community transmitted infection earlier than we thought previously.

Sure, but a few weeks earlier also doesn't make a hill of beans difference in terms of how this was handled.

This a matter of what did we know and when did we know it?
And when did we act in response to what we knew at each step?

What did this Administration know and when did they know it?
At each step, as knowledge grew?

[jhu72]

Thank goodness we don't have an authoritarian in the Oval Office...ohhh, wait...

But again, I'm not so sure that we've actually crossed the line.
Stay at home during a pandemic isn't really akin to a concentration camp, right?

Ignoring the many instances where Trump does things which are the exact antithesis of fascism, couldn't one make a plausible argument that 'stay-at-home' is the same as House Arrest with no due process?

Black Hole trolling again, PB?

Nope. Not the same. Not close.

Especially since the stay at home orders have such exceptions as outdoor exercise, getting essentials like food. No one is going to stop you from going to a hospital.

And yes, some of the orders are more strict than others - primarily where there have been more problems due to earlier big outbreaks. But other places have had very limited orders, and there are differences in results that are beginning to emerge.

Yup, the Trumpnista and the trolls are way off base on this one.

[MDlaxfan76]

Thank goodness we don't have an authoritarian in the Oval Office...ohhh, wait...

But again, I'm not so sure that we've actually crossed the line.
Stay at home during a pandemic isn't really akin to a concentration camp, right?

Ignoring the many instances where Trump does things which are the exact antithesis of fascism, couldn't one make a plausible argument that 'stay-at-home' is the same as House Arrest with no due process?

Black Hole trolling again, PB?

Nope. Not the same. Not close.

That's not trolling...I'm legitimately asking. I think there's some validity to the premise, though I myself would not make it.

Bottom line, there is tension between public health and liberty, and that tension surely will accelerate in early May.

"Trump does things which are exact antithesis of fascism"...I realize you have no bloody idea what you're talking about in that regard.
Black Hole topic.

On the question about 'stay at home' being "same as House Arrest with no due process", it's not remotely a close call...so really not a legit question.

I do agree that there's going to be lots of tension in May.