All things CoronaVirus

[Cooter]

First responders are mostly young and in good health and unlikely to succumb from the disease

All the healthy dead NYPD cops and doctors would disagree with your cavalier assessment. But who cares about them, right? "It's not me", right?

I notice that you cut off the 2nd line of my quote from the above, that is,
"I believe that most of us will end up having to deal with coronavirus"

How many NYPD cops or ambulance drivers have died from coronavirus?

As of four days ago? 27 NYPD deaths. Don't have a number for EMT. Last I saw a few weeks ago, 150+ NYC EMT's were pulled off the line with COVID.

I'm not livid in the least. I'm calmly explaining to you what's going on, and trying to tell you that the .gov will be less restrictive than private industry.

That is 27 NYPD employee deaths. Only one was a police officer and 5 were detectives.

You don't seem calm; you are writing rather long posts with a lot of sentimental crapola in them.

[calourie]

So R3 points to a NYPost article from March 28 pointing out 3 NYPD deaths as of that date, and fan comes back with an article form the same source on April 13 pointing out 22 NYPD deaths as of that date. Are we still going to go with the "fear porn" moniker given that disturbing increase in mortality to NY policepeople or do the facts suggest a need for a less jingoistic phrasing of the issue?

[RedFromMI]

From the Guardian - a good article on the state of the art of knowledge about CV, including vaccine development:

Coronavirus: five months on, what scientists know about Covid-19

Medical researchers have been studying everything we know about Covid-19. What have they learned – and is it enough to halt the pandemic?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... t-covid-19

[RedFromMI]

Another interesting thing in my Twitter feed - from Tim Mak, NPR investigative reporter (and an EMT!):

THREAD - History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes: a thread about the **Anti-Mask League** of 1919. I'm not kidding I went HAM researching this

So, starting in Sept 2018 San Francisco suffered from Spanish Flu pandemic. Initial mask wearing was good -- around 80 percent

By November cases were down, and public health officials recommended re-opening the city. Residents rushed to entertainment venues after having been denied this communal joy for months. The Mayor himself was fined by his own police chief after going to a show without a mask.

But a second wave surged in Dec 1918, and SF's Health Officer again urged people to wear masks voluntarily

Left to their own devices, most citizens - by one count 90 % - refused to wear masks. Businesses, concerned about Christmas sales, opposed. So did Culinary Workers union

San Francisco residents were fed up. This was the second wave of the pandemic, and they had already spent months between Sept and Nov being hassled, fined and even arrested for not having a mask on. Challenges of constitutionality were heard.

Christian Scientists objected, arguing that it was "subversive of personal liberty and constitutional rights." Civil libertarians argued that if health officials could force them to wear masks, then it could force them to inoculate "or any experiment or indignity."

The San Francisco Chronicle turned against the notion of mandatory masks.

Was the death rate high enough to justify remasking?

Wasn't this just the return of normal seasonal colds?

How much was this due to a public 'scare' and hype?

An op-ed ran in the local paper w/headline ‘What’s The Use?’ after a man got sick despite following public health guidelines. A promised vaccine turned out to be bogus

100s of citizens congregated on Dec 16 to debate a masking order.

On Dec. 18 someone had sent what appeared to be an improvised explosive device to San Francisco's public health official signed, 'Compliments from John.' (!!!)

The story via historian Alfred W. Crosby:

EV_HigPWsAE3uEQ.png (104.25 KiB) Viewed 1781 times

San Francisco’s Public Health Officer stuck by his guns, refusing to back down, and saying there was evidence that masks helped!

He implored the public to look to the data! Wear masks! They help!

More via Crosby:

EV_IGj2X0AkjPG4.png (78.8 KiB) Viewed 1781 times

But the public declined to listen to SF's Public Health Officer.

On Dec 19, officials voted down a mandatory mask order.

“The dollar sign is exalted above the health sign," sighed the public health officer.

By far the worst day of flu/pneumonia deaths followed on Dec 30

Flu got worse in San Francisco when masking was voluntary.

A representative of organized labor relented: "It is of no time to quibble over the worth of the mask. It is the best thing we have found to date, and if you have anything better, for God's sake, give it to us."

So on Jan 10, 1919 local officials voted to approve a new mandatory mask order after 600 new cases were reported that day.

Citizens were arrested/fined for not having masks on, but widespread disobedience of the order continue & large numbers of citizens refused to wear masks.

Protests continued:

Over 2,000 people attended an event formed by San Franciscans called themselves 'THE ANTI-MASK LEAGUE,' denouncing the mandatory masking ordinance

The gathering was of "public spirited citizens, skeptical physicians and fanatics," writes historian CrosbyModerates in the Anti-Mask League wanted to circulate an anti-mask petition. Extremists wanted to initiate recall proceedings of SF's Public Health Officer.

Chaos broke out until someone shouted, "I rented this hall and now I'm going to turn out the lights." (Mak note: lol)

The San Francisco Public Health Officer was a man named Dr. William C. Hassler.

Think of him as the 1919 Dr. Fauci.

Ignored by those who didn't want to believe the data, threatened with violence, Hassler was conscientious and performed his job with distinction

I haven’t read anything about how many people became sick DUE to the Anti-Mask League event, where 1000s gathered to protest without masks.

So we may not know how many people, if any, became sick due to this congregation

But safe to say it was not helpful during pandemic

On Jan 17, the day the masking ordinance went into effect, the # of new cases/deaths declined, the first decline in quite some time.

This continued until the epidemic faded, a signal that the mask ordinance had helped wipe out the Spanish Flu in San Francisco

Of course, the SF Public Health Officer -- the 1919 version of Dr. Fauci, got no credit for the decline in influenza cases.

People continued to gripe about the masking even after the pandemic had been stalled by it

No one seemed to credit masking for the success of blunting the Spanish Flu in San Francisco -- because, well, the crisis faded due to its success

"Rarely has the evidence in support of a scientific hypothesis been more overwhelming and more deceiving," writes historian Crosby

Ultimately San Francisco was one of the American cities hardest hit by the Spanish Flu.

673 per 100,000 people died during the pandemic due to influenza and pneumonia, per U of Michigan.

50K cases total and 3,500 were killed, per Crosby.

PHOTO: Masks being worn by players during a baseball game, in newspaper Mar 1, 1919 via The Independent

EV_OG8yXgAAIH_m.png (195.64 KiB) Viewed 1781 times

The 1918/1919 protests against mask wearing and other public health measures have parallels to today

We learn through this episode that various groups of Americans have been pushing back against public health measures for more than a hundred years -- and for similar reasons!!

In learning about the Anti-Mask League of 1919, we see many of the same human elements as today:

a portion of the population resistant to the measures; a business community crying out for relief; a second wave after an initial loosening; threats to public health officials

This is essentially a report that I pieced together by reading sources after getting curious about the 1919 Anti-Mask League. Any mistakes are my own.

I started by drafting a few tweets and then spent an hour and a half researching it last night. One thing led to another...

SOURCES:

The University of Michigan's Influenza Encyclopedia
The San Francisco Chronicle’s archives
America's Forgotten Pandemic: The Influenza of 1918 by Alfred W. Crosby
American Pandemic by Nancy Bristow

/END THREAD

[a fan]

That is 27 NYPD employee deaths. Only one was a police officer and 5 were detectives.

Right. You're ignoring how many in the NYPD have the virus, and ignoring where it is you think the non-police employees got the virus....

You don't seem calm; you are writing rather long posts with a lot of sentimental crapola in them.

I'm distilling hand sanitizer and have time to write today while the pots run.

Sentimental crapola? Says the guy who was wrapping himself in the flag, quoting the parts of the Declaration of Independence that he likes, and whining about his freedoms being taken away.... Pot, meet kettle.

I've tried to help you see the big picture, and you don't want to hear it....so ignore me. I have ZERO power over your life. Write your governor and stop complaining to the people who can't address your complaints.

[DMac]

While you're at, stop blaming others for your cousin's alcoholism too.

[old salt]

I can picture this guy as a combination of afan and 6' rolled into one. Frankly, wouldn't be surprised if he posts in here somewhere. Passion, common sense, and logic.

https://www.facebook.com/dwayne.miller. ... 963373027/

Excellent youth...thanks for posting

.. ...that's the guy Trump should have hired as his press spokesman.

[DocBarrister]

It is quite astonishing that some of you continue to believe anything Trump and his propaganda machine tell you.

More than a dozen U.S. researchers, physicians and public health experts, many of them from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, were working full time at the Geneva headquarters of the World Health Organization as the novel coronavirus emerged late last year and transmitted real-time information about its discovery and spread in China to the Trump administration, according to U.S. and international officials.

A number of CDC staffers are regularly detailed to work at WHO in Geneva as part of a rotation that has operated for years. Senior Trump-appointed health officials also consulted regularly at the highest levels with the WHO as the crisis unfolded, the officials said.

The presence of so many U.S. officials undercuts President Trump’s charge that the WHO’s failure to communicate the extent of the threat, born of a desire to protect China, is largely responsible for the rapid spread of the virus in the United States.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

DocBarrister

[SCLaxAttack]

I can picture this guy as a combination of afan and 6' rolled into one. Frankly, wouldn't be surprised if he posts in here somewhere. Passion, common sense, and logic.

https://www.facebook.com/dwayne.miller. ... 963373027/

Excellent youth...thanks for posting

.. ...that's the guy Trump should have hired as his press spokesman.

The guy wouldn't last a week. First sign of disagreement and you're out. Only sycophants last.

Steve Mnuchin - "It was me who suggested to Trump that he sign the COVID payment checks."

Yeah, right.

[6ftstick]

It is quite astonishing that some of you continue to believe anything Trump and his propaganda machine tell you.

More than a dozen U.S. researchers, physicians and public health experts, many of them from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, were working full time at the Geneva headquarters of the World Health Organization as the novel coronavirus emerged late last year and transmitted real-time information about its discovery and spread in China to the Trump administration, according to U.S. and international officials.

A number of CDC staffers are regularly detailed to work at WHO in Geneva as part of a rotation that has operated for years. Senior Trump-appointed health officials also consulted regularly at the highest levels with the WHO as the crisis unfolded, the officials said.

The presence of so many U.S. officials undercuts President Trump’s charge that the WHO’s failure to communicate the extent of the threat, born of a desire to protect China, is largely responsible for the rapid spread of the virus in the United States.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

DocBarrister

[b"]according to a CDC official who spoke on the condition of anonymity"[/b] from your article. Like all hit pieces from the left especially the WAPO never an attribution. never multiple sources to substantiate the attacks. No one with balls to put their name to the accusations.

The fact is China locked down their own country but let 700k chinese travel the world to celebrate the lunar New year of the Rat.

[DocBarrister]

Anyone care to retract blaming Trump on the Test kit delay...and guess what it's not a fox news link, going to have to go to plan b or c this time?

Contamination at CDC lab delayed rollout of coronavirus tests
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/conta ... r-BB12Q90W

#OrangeManNotBad

South Koreans never stupidly relied on one source for test kits like the Trump administration did. The South Korean government gathered much of industry together at a train station and ordered them to come up with test kits, which they did in little over a week.

That is the difference between intelligent leadership (South Korea) and the moronic denial of Donald Trump, his administration, and his vapid supporters.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

It is quite astonishing that some of you continue to believe anything Trump and his propaganda machine tell you.

More than a dozen U.S. researchers, physicians and public health experts, many of them from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, were working full time at the Geneva headquarters of the World Health Organization as the novel coronavirus emerged late last year and transmitted real-time information about its discovery and spread in China to the Trump administration, according to U.S. and international officials.

A number of CDC staffers are regularly detailed to work at WHO in Geneva as part of a rotation that has operated for years. Senior Trump-appointed health officials also consulted regularly at the highest levels with the WHO as the crisis unfolded, the officials said.

The presence of so many U.S. officials undercuts President Trump’s charge that the WHO’s failure to communicate the extent of the threat, born of a desire to protect China, is largely responsible for the rapid spread of the virus in the United States.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

DocBarrister

[b"]according to a CDC official who spoke on the condition of anonymity"[/b] from your article. Like all hit pieces from the left especially the WAPO never an attribution. never multiple sources to substantiate the attacks. No one with balls to put their name to the accusations.

The fact is China locked down their own country but let 700k chinese travel the world to celebrate the lunar New year of the Rat.

You can’t blame China or the WHO for Trump’s nearly two months of denial, lies, and inaction.

DocBarrister

[youthathletics]

It is quite astonishing that some of you continue to believe anything Trump and his propaganda machine tell you.

More than a dozen U.S. researchers, physicians and public health experts, many of them from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, were working full time at the Geneva headquarters of the World Health Organization as the novel coronavirus emerged late last year and transmitted real-time information about its discovery and spread in China to the Trump administration, according to U.S. and international officials.

A number of CDC staffers are regularly detailed to work at WHO in Geneva as part of a rotation that has operated for years. Senior Trump-appointed health officials also consulted regularly at the highest levels with the WHO as the crisis unfolded, the officials said.

The presence of so many U.S. officials undercuts President Trump’s charge that the WHO’s failure to communicate the extent of the threat, born of a desire to protect China, is largely responsible for the rapid spread of the virus in the United States.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

DocBarrister

[b"]according to a CDC official who spoke on the condition of anonymity"[/b] from your article. Like all hit pieces from the left especially the WAPO never an attribution. never multiple sources to substantiate the attacks. No one with balls to put their name to the accusations.

The fact is China locked down their own country but let 700k chinese travel the world to celebrate the lunar New year of the Rat.

You can’t blame China or the WHO for Trump’s nearly two months of denial, lies, and inaction.

DocBarrister

In the same article...Talking out both sides of their neck. See what happens when you have TDS. tisk-tisk-tisk.

The organization “has no intelligence capabilities, and no investigatory power,” said Daniel Spiegel, who served as ambassador to the United Nation’s Geneva-based organizations, including the WHO, for the Clinton administration. “They should have been more skeptical about what the Chinese were telling them, but they’re totally at the mercy of what governments provide.”

Stop being a sheep DOC

[CU77]

If I ran a health insurance company, I would immediately blacklist anyone who showed up at those re-open protests. Especially if they brought their kids with them.

And if I ran a hospital, my armed guards at the doors would be turning them all away.

[youthathletics]

Anyone care to retract blaming Trump on the Test kit delay...and guess what it's not a fox news link, going to have to go to plan b or c this time?

Contamination at CDC lab delayed rollout of coronavirus tests
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/conta ... r-BB12Q90W

#OrangeManNotBad

South Koreans never stupidly relied on one source for test kits like the Trump administration did. The South Korean government gathered much of industry together at a train station and ordered them to come up with test kits, which they did in little over a week.

That is the difference between intelligent leadership (South Korea) and the moronic denial of Donald Trump, his administration, and his vapid supporters.

DocBarrister

Did you just finish putting on your clown makeup? So now Trump is at fault for laborers at the CDC assembling kits improperly. maybe we should have hired illegal's to do it instead. Stop being a sheep.

[6ftstick]

Anyone care to retract blaming Trump on the Test kit delay...and guess what it's not a fox news link, going to have to go to plan b or c this time?

Contamination at CDC lab delayed rollout of coronavirus tests
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/conta ... r-BB12Q90W

#OrangeManNotBad

South Koreans never stupidly relied on one source for test kits like the Trump administration did. The South Korean government gathered much of industry together at a train station and ordered them to come up with test kits, which they did in little over a week.

That is the difference between intelligent leadership (South Korea) and the moronic denial of Donald Trump, his administration, and his vapid supporters.

DocBarrister

Did South Korea Violate Civil Liberties?

South Korea’s efficiency and effectiveness included surveillance and data gathering without court warrants, compulsory testing, and mandatory isolation, which American citizens might never be on board with, Heritage’s Klingner said.

The South Korean government began testing asymptomatic people, then isolated patients even if they had only mild symptoms. U.S. officials have discouraged those without symptoms from getting tested, in large part because of a shortage of testing equipment.

South Korea changed its law to allow the government to engage in more surveillance to determine who diagnosed citizens were in contact with. The government then could access citizens’ cellphones, credit card and other financial information, and GPS data to know where they had been and who they had been with.

In some cases, the government then could quarantine not only a patient who tests positive but those who came in contact with the patient.

As the new coronavirus spread, China’s communist government was far more restrictive than the South Korea government, enforcing severe bans on speech, forcing isolation, removing people from their residences, and quarantining health care workers.

These actions did slow the spread of the coronavirus, noted Dr. Lee Gross, president of Docs 4 Patient Care, a health care advocacy group.

“You can do that in some societies and they would look favorably upon it,” Gross told The Daily Signal. “I’m not sure people would do that in the U.S.”

Gross, who practices family medicine in North Port, Florida, said that after the New York City quarantine was imposed, New Yorkers began flying into Florida. He said Florida state officials are issuing self-quarantine orders to travelers from such high-risk areas.

“People don’t follow self-stay-at-home orders,” Gross said. “Americans don’t like being told what to do.”

Moffit, the Heritage health policy expert who is a former HHS official, said South Korea’s actions could not occur at a national level in the United States and would be ineffective if tried.

“From a public health perspective, South Korea was very aggressive in isolating people rather than putting them in crowded hospitals,” he said.

[a fan]

It is quite astonishing that some of you continue to believe anything Trump and his propaganda machine tell you.

More than a dozen U.S. researchers, physicians and public health experts, many of them from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, were working full time at the Geneva headquarters of the World Health Organization as the novel coronavirus emerged late last year and transmitted real-time information about its discovery and spread in China to the Trump administration, according to U.S. and international officials.

A number of CDC staffers are regularly detailed to work at WHO in Geneva as part of a rotation that has operated for years. Senior Trump-appointed health officials also consulted regularly at the highest levels with the WHO as the crisis unfolded, the officials said.

The presence of so many U.S. officials undercuts President Trump’s charge that the WHO’s failure to communicate the extent of the threat, born of a desire to protect China, is largely responsible for the rapid spread of the virus in the United States.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

DocBarrister

[b"]according to a CDC official who spoke on the condition of anonymity"[/b] from your article. Like all hit pieces from the left especially the WAPO never an attribution. never multiple sources to substantiate the attacks. No one with balls to put their name to the accusations.

The fact is China locked down their own country but let 700k chinese travel the world to celebrate the lunar New year of the Rat.

You can’t blame China or the WHO for Trump’s nearly two months of denial, lies, and inaction.

DocBarrister

What the firetruck are you talking about? OF COURSE you can blame China for letting the rest of the world not know what's going on with this virus.

They F'ed their trading partners by playing games, and not helping the world get ready. China intentionally hid how serious the virus was.....leaving dozens of countries unprepared.

If this virus had originated in the EU? There's NO QUESTION the rest of the world would have been better prepared because of the free flow of information.

[MDlaxfan76]

If they were brown people you wouldn't hear a peep out of MDlax. He's a champion all right, champion of identity politics.

not sure where you get that from, but sure, I do think that folks have some legit beefs based on how more dominant parts of society have treated them.

You want to call that "identity politics", I'd just call it keeping it real.

But the comment about the 'idiots' in these protests weren't about any sort of racial identity politics if that's your concern...unless you see that in the Confederate flag stuff? I guess I'd agree with you that those particular protestors probably fit into the 'idiot' category. Same for the 'idiots' carrying the assault weapons.

Point is...if anyone who you consider a Trumpist ( ) had questioned protester's intelligence as you did, and the protesters were non-white, you'd be claiming "racism" on here.

really?

Or are you saying that if someone said because they were non-white they were idiots?
Or called them idiots while waving the confederate flag perhaps?

This isn't rocket science.
Be racist and we'll know it.

Just be an idiot, whatever color, and we can know that too.

Does waving a rebel flag make a person an idiot? Does waving a BLM flag make somebody anti cop? Does waving a don't tread on me flag make someone a racist? Does waving a Betsy Ross flag also make you a racist? In America who should care what kind of flag you want to wave? The last time I checked we were all free to wave whatever flag we want. Hell if you choose to do so you can burn old glory in the street and in the eyes of some folks, that makes you a true American patriot. Any of you geniuses out there that can figure this entire mess out please advice as to what the solution is. That is what freedom means. When our government starts deciding what are good flags or bad flags this country is sliding down one very slippery slope that will not end well.

We quite agree that we have the freedom to be whatever sort of 'idiot' we prefer.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that the government or even a POTUS should be telling us what flags we should salute, which we should not.

But, yeah, if you choose to fly the Confederate battle flag I'll certainly understand that you're giving the finger to the descendants of slaves. But, hey, you might have some other intent and just be too stupid to realize the offense you are giving? Possible.

Pretty sure you'd know what flying a swastika flag meant to express, too.

On BLM, some may well intend to be offensive to police, but lots do not mean it the way those using the Confederate flag intend. They do all want less police violence disproportionate based on ethnicity. So do lots of police, btw.

The Betsy Ross flag, as we discussed, has been a recent appropriation by those wanting to send a racist message. But your having it clearly had no such meaning.

I'm strongly opposed to burning the US flag, but you and I would agree that the government shouldn't get involved.

You know what MD, this may not make sense, i am not sure there is a new generation of young folks that do understand the symbolism behind the rebel flag. How could they possibly understand when way too few of them have ever heard of a place called Gettysburg? Without that knowledge in hand they can never possibly understand the context of the discussion.

It's part of a calculated campaign to stigmatize everything about the Confederacy, deny memorializing anyone who perished on it's behalf, & erase it from our history, as the Germans have done with Nazism. When you visit Germany & tour the history & art museums, it's as if those decades do not exist. It's a historical blind spot when a PC culture is not able to honestly confront it's past -- warts & all.

BS. I want every American to understand the history of the Civil War and slavery and Jim Crow in the United States.

It's the whitewashing of that history I don't want to see happen. Which is what you get when you go into some museums in the South, with euphemisms that sugar coat the horrors of slavery and Jim Crow. They like to talk about the 'sacrifices' made by white southerners to the Cause, brave 'heroes'...

Tell us, Salty, what aspects of the Confederacy are worthy of admiration rather than stigma?
Then tell us how slavery really wasn't so bad and there really wasn't a reign of terror during Jim Crow.

[MDlaxfan76]

It is quite astonishing that some of you continue to believe anything Trump and his propaganda machine tell you.

More than a dozen U.S. researchers, physicians and public health experts, many of them from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, were working full time at the Geneva headquarters of the World Health Organization as the novel coronavirus emerged late last year and transmitted real-time information about its discovery and spread in China to the Trump administration, according to U.S. and international officials.

A number of CDC staffers are regularly detailed to work at WHO in Geneva as part of a rotation that has operated for years. Senior Trump-appointed health officials also consulted regularly at the highest levels with the WHO as the crisis unfolded, the officials said.

The presence of so many U.S. officials undercuts President Trump’s charge that the WHO’s failure to communicate the extent of the threat, born of a desire to protect China, is largely responsible for the rapid spread of the virus in the United States.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

DocBarrister

[b"]according to a CDC official who spoke on the condition of anonymity"[/b] from your article. Like all hit pieces from the left especially the WAPO never an attribution. never multiple sources to substantiate the attacks. No one with balls to put their name to the accusations.

The fact is China locked down their own country but let 700k chinese travel the world to celebrate the lunar New year of the Rat.

You can’t blame China or the WHO for Trump’s nearly two months of denial, lies, and inaction.

DocBarrister

What the firetruck are you talking about? OF COURSE you can blame China for letting the rest of the world not know what's going on with this virus.

They F'ed their trading partners by playing games, and not helping the world get ready. China intentionally hid how serious the virus was.....leaving dozens of countries unprepared.

If this virus had originated in the EU? There's NO QUESTION the rest of the world would have been better prepared because of the free flow of information.

Whoa, is that what Doc wrote?
I agree with you about China's lack of transparency, but we knew darn well by Jan 23 when they locked down Wuhan that it was a disaster, an out of control epidemic. Very hard to blame them thereafter for our inaction, right? Certainly not after we knew with certainty that we had community spread occurring in the US. From that point forward, our actions were our responsibility, right?

[a fan]

You don't get to hammer Trump for "delaying" for two months, while at the same time giving China a pass for fabricating information about how freaking deadly this virus is. China REALLY f'ed the rest of the world on this count.

Had Trump-----or DeBlasio and the rest of our Governors, for that matter-----heard how bad it was in China? I'm hoping they would have acted differently. We'll never know, obviously.

Look at it this way: How mad would you be if Deblasio or Cuomo hid the actual NYC infection and death rates? Others are counting on that information to make their own decisions, no?