Johns Hopkins 2021

[a fan]

Good chronology Wombat. You can’t hit everyone of them but you got most of them.

This is personal and it is Daniels. They fired the entire coaching staff including the kid who was managing lax operations.

Recall the rolling suspension year when Daniels wanted to cancel the season but was forced to back down and accept rolling suspensions? Quote from Daniels “who is running this university Petro or me?”. Actually he used the full name. As Wombat said there are a lot of bread crumbs. This was never about record and never about sports in general imo. There is a big difference between running a national title caliber D-1 program and D-llll programs. Daniels stopped investing in the program. Admission standards were raised and it became far more difficult to get in players than anytime in the past. Hopkins didn’t have the money to give out a lot of financial aid until the Bloomberg gift. Once it did we started getting better recruits. Daniels prevented the bubble from being built. There is no one left in the administration to nurture the program. It’s the reason Tierney left Princeton. DP had a 5 year contract that expired. Calder was moved out a few years ago. That was an enormous red flag. The minute the contract ended DP was let go.Hopkins has never had the situation where the President did not place high value in the program. Not Eisenhower or Muller or Bill. There
is no one left at the university to champion the program as it was championed in the past. No ties to the past. No one to stand up for it. The treatment they all got at the end was shabby and I am being kind.

There are no coaches left at a time when many of the best seniors are looking for a home. There are
blue chip recruits for 2021 and 2022Z. All those players will be in play now. I was pretty confident on a couple of seniors. No more. We have a few of ours entering the portal.

A national search? Please. Hopkins has never had to hire a search firm. Never. And it doesn’t know. The fact they did is revealing. Duh. The lacrosse advisory committee is pretty much window dressing at this point.

Some of the coaches I have seen mentioned as favored candidates do not get the same favorable reviews from some other coaches.

Within minutes of the announcement I got a call from a former first teamer whose son was a first teamer at another school whose first sentence was “What the heck is going on down there”

I was never intending to post again but oh well. The exception that proves the rule

You've been trying to tell Hop fans this for years now. They refused to listen, and kept putting everything at Petro's feet.

How many posters tried to tell them: "be careful what you ask for...."

What's keeping Hopkins from going DIII? Or more to the point: Who? A few posters wrote in this thread about the virus possibly giving them cover to move Hopkins to DIII. I never thought I'd say this, but I wouldn't bet against it anymore.

And again, as of today, the odds that Universities will reconvene on campus this fall on are tiny. I think spring lacrosse is a coin flip at this point. And that's assuming Universities have the money to spend on these sports.

[DocBarrister]

Good chronology Wombat. You can’t hit everyone of them but you got most of them.

This is personal and it is Daniels. They fired the entire coaching staff including the kid who was managing lax operations.

Recall the rolling suspension year when Daniels wanted to cancel the season but was forced to back down and accept rolling suspensions? Quote from Daniels “who is running this university Petro or me?”. Actually he used the full name. As Wombat said there are a lot of bread crumbs. This was never about record and never about sports in general imo. There is a big difference between running a national title caliber D-1 program and D-llll programs. Daniels stopped investing in the program. Admission standards were raised and it became far more difficult to get in players than anytime in the past. Hopkins didn’t have the money to give out a lot of financial aid until the Bloomberg gift. Once it did we started getting better recruits. Daniels prevented the bubble from being built. There is no one left in the administration to nurture the program. It’s the reason Tierney left Princeton. DP had a 5 year contract that expired. Calder was moved out a few years ago. That was an enormous red flag. The minute the contract ended DP was let go.Hopkins has never had the situation where the President did not place high value in the program. Not Eisenhower or Muller or Bill. There
is no one left at the university to champion the program as it was championed in the past. No ties to the past. No one to stand up for it. The treatment they all got at the end was shabby and I am being kind.

There are no coaches left at a time when many of the best seniors are looking for a home. There are
blue chip recruits for 2021 and 2022Z. All those players will be in play now. I was pretty confident on a couple of seniors. No more. We have a few of ours entering the portal.

A national search? Please. Hopkins has never had to hire a search firm. Never. And it doesn’t know. The fact they did is revealing. Duh. The lacrosse advisory committee is pretty much window dressing at this point.

Some of the coaches I have seen mentioned as favored candidates do not get the same favorable reviews from some other coaches.

Within minutes of the announcement I got a call from a former first teamer whose son was a first teamer at another school whose first sentence was “What the heck is going on down there”

I was never intending to post again but oh well. The exception that proves the rule

You've been trying to tell Hop fans this for years now. They refused to listen, and kept putting everything at Petro's feet.

How many posters tried to tell them: "be careful what you ask for...."

What's keeping Hopkins from going DIII? Or more to the point: Who? A few posters wrote in this thread about the virus possibly giving them cover to move Hopkins to DIII. I never thought I'd say this, but I wouldn't bet against it anymore.

And again, as of today, the odds that Universities will reconvene on campus this fall on are tiny. I think spring lacrosse is a coin flip at this point. And that's assuming Universities have the money to spend on these sports.

Way off base. President Daniels has made considerable investments in the lacrosse program. ESPNU renewal, new field turf, Cordish Center, Petro’s renewal in 2015 ... all of that is a tribute to Petro’s hard work, but none of that happens without President Daniels’ consent.

Doesn’t mean there wasn’t some personal animosity between him and Petro. Leave the details of that to others.

Nothing suggests Daniels wants to harm the lacrosse program. But he has his priorities and, as in any era, the lacrosse program has to fit into the plans of the university president.

If the lacrosse program needs to increase its academic standards to fit into Daniels’ plans, so be it. Those standards can’t be more restrictive than what Shay must comply with at Yale, and last time I looked, Yale was doing fine.

The university is apparently spending a fair amount of money on their search. That’s not consistent with downgrading this program. Daniels is obsessed with rankings. Don’t assume lacrosse is any exception. The team’s performance in recent years was probably an annoyance for him as he had to hear complaints from alumni. If anything, Daniels probably wants the program to succeed so he doesn’t need to focus on it.

With all of the investment made on the lacrosse program during Daniels’ tenure, I am certain he wanted a better return, and without any issues off the field that could tarnish his other achievements.

A lot of folks here are reluctant to admit it, but Daniels is one of the best presidents Johns Hopkins has ever had. Apparently, he didn’t have the close relationship with the lacrosse program that other presidents have had. But if you’re trying to tell me that Daniels should have been calling lacrosse recruits like other presidents have done, then I would respond: are you effin’ kidding me? The guy runs one of the most complex universities and medical systems in the entire world, and you want him dialing high school lacrosse players?

The lacrosse program will be fine. They will hire a good coach who can build on the legacy that Petro and many others built.

DocBarrister

[Mr. F]

Way off base. President Daniels has made considerable investments in the lacrosse program. ESPNU renewal, new field turf, Cordish Center, Petro’s renewal in 2015 ... all of that is a tribute to Petro’s hard work, but none of that happens without President Daniels’ consent.

Doesn’t mean there wasn’t some personal animosity between him and Petro. Leave the details of that to others.

Nothing suggests Daniels wants to harm the lacrosse program. But he has his priorities and, as in any era, the lacrosse program has to fit into the plans of the university president.

If the lacrosse program needs to increase its academic standards to fit into Daniels’ plans, so be it. Those standards can’t be more restrictive than what Shay must comply with at Yale, and last time I looked, Yale was doing fine.

The university is apparently spending a fair amount of money on their search. That’s not consistent with downgrading this program. Daniels is obsessed with rankings. Don’t assume lacrosse is any exception. The team’s performance in recent years was probably an annoyance for him as he had to hear complaints from alumni. If anything, Daniels probably wants the program to succeed so he doesn’t need to focus on it.

With all of the investment made on the lacrosse program during Daniels’ tenure, I am certain he wanted a better return, and without any issues off the field that could tarnish his other achievements.

A lot of folks here are reluctant to admit it, but Daniels is one of the best presidents Johns Hopkins has ever had. Apparently, he didn’t have the close relationship with the lacrosse program that other presidents have had. But if you’re trying to tell me that Daniels should have been calling lacrosse recruits like other presidents have done, then I would respond: are you effin’ kidding me? The guy runs one of the most complex universities and medical systems in the entire world, and you want him dialing high school lacrosse players?

The lacrosse program will be fine. They will hire a good coach who can build on the legacy that Petro and many others built.

DocBarrister

Very valid points, especially compared to the recent success of Yale, Penn, and co. The Ivy League has been one of the dominant Lacrosse conferences. They have zero scholarships, and arguably as strict academic standards. Hopkins has the legacy that many of the Ivy Programs don't and at least the monetary and geographic measures to recruit top level talent. There is no reason why Hopkins can't go toe to toe with Yale over the next few years, they just need the right person to lead them.

[a fan]

Those standards can’t be more restrictive than what Shay must comply with at Yale, and last time I looked, Yale was doing fine.

Yale is most certainly not doing just fine by Hopkins standards.

2010: 10-5, loss to Bryant, no NCAA tournament
2011: 10-4, no NCAA tournament
2012: 10-5, losses to Sacred Heart, Lehigh, blown out in 1st round of NCAA's
2013: 12-5, losses to St. Johns, 1st round win
2014: 9-5, loss to Fairfield, no NCAA tournament
2015: 11-5, first round NCAA loss
2016: 13-3, first round NCAA loss
2017: 10-6, losses to Bryant and UMass, first round NCAA loss


Then finally, they had their breakout season and won it all in 2018.

But have a look at those results from 2010-2017. Is that acceptable for Hop fans? Nope. Not even close.

You don't get to take a look at two great years and ignore eight years of substandard play at Hopkins. If you did? No one would have complained about Petro's performance. He had a Final Four and a QF in two years out of ten.

Let's see how Shay does from 2018-2028 before we draw any conclusions. Because you can play this "two good years, with eight bad years" game with many programs.

[DocBarrister]

Those standards can’t be more restrictive than what Shay must comply with at Yale, and last time I looked, Yale was doing fine.

Yale is most certainly not doing just fine by Hopkins standards.

2010: 10-5, loss to Bryant, no NCAA tournament
2011: 10-4, no NCAA tournament
2012: 10-5, losses to Sacred Heart, Lehigh, blown out in 1st round of NCAA's
2013: 12-5, losses to St. Johns, 1st round win
2014: 9-5, loss to Fairfield, no NCAA tournament
2015: 11-5, first round NCAA loss
2016: 13-3, first round NCAA loss
2017: 10-6, losses to Bryant and UMass, first round NCAA loss


Then finally, they had their breakout season and won it all in 2018.

But have a look at those results from 2010-2017. Is that acceptable for Hop fans? Nope. Not even close.

You don't get to take a look at two great years and ignore eight years of substandard play at Hopkins. If you did? No one would have complained about Petro's performance. He had a Final Four and a QF in two years out of ten.

Let's see how Shay does from 2018-2028 before we draw any conclusions. Because you can play this "two good years, with eight bad years" game with many programs.

I’m pretty sure every Hopkins lacrosse fan would trade the past decade with Yale if it includes that one national championship. That’s pretty much the only measure of success at Johns Hopkins.

Otherwise, Petro with his 2015 Final Four, 2015 & 2018 B1G titles, and five NCAA tournament bids since 2015, would still be head coach of the Blue Jays.

DocBarrister

[HopFan16]

Word on the street is that they are casting a wide net—Shay, Tambroni, etc. in addition to the conventional wisdom candidates Nadelen, Raymond, and Marr. I really don't think there are many guys completely off the table. Interviews should be happening soon. They will make a good hire. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[a fan]

I’m pretty sure every Hopkins lacrosse fan would trade the past decade with Yale if it includes that one national championship.

Buffalo bagels. Hop fans would never have given him the chance, and it's not even a close call.

You think Petro would have made it through 8 years with just one single NCAA tournament win? No way. Not a snowball's chance in h*ll.

[wgdsr]

Very valid points, especially compared to the recent success of Yale, Penn, and co. The Ivy League has been one of the dominant Lacrosse conferences. They have zero scholarships, and arguably as strict academic standards. Hopkins has the legacy that many of the Ivy Programs don't and at least the monetary and geographic measures to recruit top level talent. There is no reason why Hopkins can't go toe to toe with Yale over the next few years, they just need the right person to lead them.

the ivies could all day every day recruit players with household incomes under 110k and have more schollys than any other team out there.
their disadvantage is in the 200-300k group. maybe a larger segment than america in lacrosse, but gives them a lot of chum.

[wgdsr]

Word on the street is that they are casting a wide net—Shay, Tambroni, etc. in addition to the conventional wisdom candidates Nadelen, Raymond, and Marr. I really don't think there are many guys completely off the table. Interviews should be happening soon. They will make a good hire. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

so they might not have much of a profile of what they want?

[DocBarrister]

I’m pretty sure every Hopkins lacrosse fan would trade the past decade with Yale if it includes that one national championship.

Buffalo bagels. Hop fans would never have given him the chance, and it's not even a close call.

You think Petro would have made it through 8 years with just one single NCAA tournament win? No way. Not a snowball's chance in h*ll.

With the same win-loss records as Shay, Hopkins would have made the tournament each of those years.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

Word on the street is that they are casting a wide net—Shay, Tambroni, etc. in addition to the conventional wisdom candidates Nadelen, Raymond, and Marr. I really don't think there are many guys completely off the table. Interviews should be happening soon. They will make a good hire. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

so they might not have much of a profile of what they want?

I’m sure they do.

It’s due diligence ... whomever they hire, they need to be able to say they searched far and wide and considered all the options.

DocBarrister

[HopFan16]

Word on the street is that they are casting a wide net—Shay, Tambroni, etc. in addition to the conventional wisdom candidates Nadelen, Raymond, and Marr. I really don't think there are many guys completely off the table. Interviews should be happening soon. They will make a good hire. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

so they might not have much of a profile of what they want?

Virginia did the same thing.

[jhu06]

I'm not a Daniels guy and I don't know any of the behind the scenes stuff that you and quint have discussed but he's not the reason that ground balls have been an issue for this program for over a decade, that we've lost ncaa tournament games-the biggest of those kids careers by an average of 5 goals a game, that our ssdms haven't been able to cover consistently or that a lockerroom full of il rated recruits sh-t the bed against cuse, unc, and princeton in succession this year and then struggled against msm.

fwiw, older alumni, supporters of the athletic programs and athletes care about the athletics department getting what it needs and alumni preference in admissions, but I sincerely doubt the rest of the university community does. someone made a comment about recruits unimpressed with the lack of athletic segregation on campus, special facilities etc and I'm just remembering Harrison, schwartzman and company doing just fine playing pickup hoops with foreign grad students after practice in the rec center+eating the same food we did in wolman. they got a facility. what other special bells and whistles do they need?

[44WeWantMore]

Very valid points, especially compared to the recent success of Yale, Penn, and co. The Ivy League has been one of the dominant Lacrosse conferences. They have zero scholarships, and arguably as strict academic standards. Hopkins has the legacy that many of the Ivy Programs don't and at least the monetary and geographic measures to recruit top level talent. There is no reason why Hopkins can't go toe to toe with Yale over the next few years, they just need the right person to lead them.

the ivies could all day every day recruit players with household incomes under 110k and have more schollys than any other team out there.
their disadvantage is in the 200-300k group. maybe a larger segment than america in lacrosse, but gives them a lot of chum.

Excellent point. Their more generous definition of 'need' outweighs any discussion of partial scholarships (and maybe even in-state tuition) for plenty, if not most, families.
Second point (not that it should need to be made): When HPY calls, there is not a parent in the universe that won't jump to take the call. And close enough for Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, and Cornell (especially if the dad played lax back in the day, plus NYS residents have the opportunity to attend one of the land-grant schools at Cornell, though I have no idea how many actually do).

[44WeWantMore]

I'm not a Daniels guy and I don't know any of the behind the scenes stuff that you and quint have discussed but he's not the reason that ground balls have been an issue for this program for over a decade, that we've lost ncaa tournament games-the biggest of those kids careers by an average of 5 goals a game, that our ssdms haven't been able to cover consistently or that a lockerroom full of il rated recruits sh-t the bed against cuse, unc, and princeton in succession this year and then struggled against msm.

fwiw, older alumni, supporters of the athletic programs and athletes care about the athletics department getting what it needs and alumni preference in admissions, but I sincerely doubt the rest of the university community does. someone made a comment about recruits unimpressed with the lack of athletic segregation on campus, special facilities etc and I'm just remembering Harrison, schwartzman and company doing just fine playing pickup hoops with foreign grad students after practice in the rec center+eating the same food we did in wolman. they got a facility. what other special bells and whistles do they need?

I guess eating the same food explains how well Jesse filled the pipes?

[wgdsr]

Word on the street is that they are casting a wide net—Shay, Tambroni, etc. in addition to the conventional wisdom candidates Nadelen, Raymond, and Marr. I really don't think there are many guys completely off the table. Interviews should be happening soon. They will make a good hire. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

so they might not have much of a profile of what they want?

Virginia did the same thing.

i'm fairly sure you have no idea what virginia did and the standards, confirmed if this is your response.

my post was facetious, unless we're to take you literally that almost no one/nothing is off the table.

i would doubt that, but i know nothing about their search.

[HopFan16]

Word on the street is that they are casting a wide net—Shay, Tambroni, etc. in addition to the conventional wisdom candidates Nadelen, Raymond, and Marr. I really don't think there are many guys completely off the table. Interviews should be happening soon. They will make a good hire. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

so they might not have much of a profile of what they want?

Virginia did the same thing.

i'm fairly sure you have no idea what virginia did and the standards, confirmed if this is your response.

my post was facetious, unless we're to take you literally that almost no one/nothing is off the table.

i would doubt that, but i know nothing about their search.

Virginia talked to a wide range of coaches with varying degrees of experience.

[wgdsr]

Word on the street is that they are casting a wide net—Shay, Tambroni, etc. in addition to the conventional wisdom candidates Nadelen, Raymond, and Marr. I really don't think there are many guys completely off the table. Interviews should be happening soon. They will make a good hire. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

so they might not have much of a profile of what they want?

Virginia did the same thing.

i'm fairly sure you have no idea what virginia did and the standards, confirmed if this is your response.

my post was facetious, unless we're to take you literally that almost no one/nothing is off the table.

i would doubt that, but i know nothing about their search.

Virginia talked to a wide range of coaches with varying degrees of experience.

because experience wasn't a big emphasis of the criteria.
certain things were.

[hofpride]

coach T at hofstra had the hops recruits for the last 5 yrs where would they be? his x's and 0's are as good as anyones

[jrn19]

coach T at hofstra had the hops recruits for the last 5 yrs where would they be? his x's and 0's are as good as anyones

He coaches on Long Island where some of the best players in the entire country are. Feel like he should be able to land at least one or two of them