Johns Hopkins 2021

[DocBarrister]

Pretty optimistic to be talking about the 2021 season. Absent a vaccine, I expect the status quo to continue for another 18 months or so. 2022 may be more reasonable.

This is possible, but I hope not. If we’re at status quo next time this year, we’ll be in a depression that makes the Great Depression look like a mild hiccup.

They’re cutting corners everywhere they can all around the world for a vaccine. I am guesstimating first quarter in 2021 for a vaccine in the U.S. Slight chance for fourth quarter 2020 (possible, but not likely), and a good chance for later in 2021.

The college football season will not be “normal” by any means, and may be delayed.

But you’re right ... can’t assume the 2021 season goes off as scheduled.

DocBarrister

[51percentcorn]

People use records to rank a team's greatness. It's logical but can also be slightly flawed. For example, there's no way from a talent perspective the 1980 team is ranked 6th in Hopkins NCAA title teams. That team was LOADED but injury prone - Yes the '79 team graduated Hot Rod and Baugher among others but a certain transfer from Navy ended up being a pretty good player as I recall. There was also the emergence of one of Hopkins greatest ever - the Cookie Monster - into the force that was near unstoppable. So once again a National HOFer at every position on the field - with a likely 5th - Ned Radebaugh taken away by injury and family. Yes injuries - and as happens with alot of streaks - just didn't have it in Charlottesville that day - created a lone loss but here is Henry Ciccarone's evaluation of the '80 team from the SI article that year:

"After that loss, Ciccarone ordered a major shake-up. His biggest gamble was to move Brendan Schneck from attack, where he was leading the team in goals, to midfield, where he would only play in shifts with his line. But the gamble paid off. Schneck continued to score close to five points a game while adding needed strength and depth to the midfield. As the Blue Jays' numerous injuries finally began to heal, they became, well, invincible. Even Ciccarone had to admit, "When we were 100% healthy and playing to our ability, I think we were five or six goals better than anybody else in the country."

If there had been a shot clock in 1980 and a continually healthy Hopkins team (and Ned) the scoreboard lights would have burnt out

[Sagittarius A*]

People use records to rank a team's greatness. It's logical but can also be slightly flawed. For example, there's no way from a talent perspective the 1980 team is ranked 6th in Hopkins NCAA title teams. That team was LOADED but injury prone - Yes the '79 team graduated Hot Rod and Baugher among others but a certain transfer from Navy ended up being a pretty good player as I recall. There was also the emergence of one of Hopkins greatest ever - the Cookie Monster - into the force that was near unstoppable. So once again a National HOFer at every position on the field - with a likely 5th - Ned Radebaugh taken away by injury and family. Yes injuries - and as happens with alot of streaks - just didn't have it in Charlottesville that day - created a lone loss but here is Henry Ciccarone's evaluation of the '80 team from the SI article that year:

"After that loss, Ciccarone ordered a major shake-up. His biggest gamble was to move Brendan Schneck from attack, where he was leading the team in goals, to midfield, where he would only play in shifts with his line. But the gamble paid off. Schneck continued to score close to five points a game while adding needed strength and depth to the midfield. As the Blue Jays' numerous injuries finally began to heal, they became, well, invincible. Even Ciccarone had to admit, "When we were 100% healthy and playing to our ability, I think we were five or six goals better than anybody else in the country."

If there had been a shot clock in 1980 the scoreboard lights would have burnt out

I meant no disrespect to the 1980 team. In the Championship game, their face-off man was out sick, their top attackman out injured, the game was on astroturf when Homewood field was still grass, and they couldn't buy a faceoff but still ended up winning. I just ranked the undefeated teams up top, the one loss teams, and then the multiple loss teams last. If you have a better seeding, by all means, please post it. Mine was just a suggestion.

[51percentcorn]

Sag - while I disagree with your hot takes alot - this time I was only using it as an example - virtually everyone would put - '79, '84 and '05 as the likely Top 3. I saw every single one of those teams play a lot - even the '74 team unfortunately (as it means i am old). It's really hard to rank - I might put both '85 (a one goal loss to UNC) and the '80 team (3 goal loss to UVA) above the '05 team in talent. '80 had 4 National HOFers - Federico, Greenberg, Cook and Schneck with Ned a likely if things had worked out differently (I say this because his brother is a National HOFer and most of the family says Ned was the better player). '85 had 5 National HOFers - Wood, Deto, Quinn, Dressel, Mitchell. '05 will likely have 2 someday - Harry and Rabil - maybe Jesse with his two titles and success in the pros.

The '80 team healthy and with Ned was a real handfull.

Then there are teams like '81 and '03 (by far IMO the most talented team of Petro's) that might be better than some of the champs.
.

[51percentcorn]

Couple questions - I know I have asked this before but how can the Stanwicks not be on the All-time JHU team? Is there a criteria they didn't meet? The ONLY thing you can say is they never got above HM AA but they were both 3 X HM AAs. Otherwise it seem the biggest of sleights to have Brown there and not the two of them.

The other thing - do teams factor in records and stats for 2020 or is it more that they never happened - especially since folks can get their year back. In the scheme of things - the smallest of issues but was wondering about someone who gets to play 4.3-4.5 years vs 4.

[HopFan16]

Couple questions - I know I have asked this before but how can the Stanwicks not be on the All-time JHU team? Is there a criteria they didn't meet? The ONLY thing you can say is they never got above HM AA but they were both 3 X HM AAs. Otherwise it seem the biggest of sleights to have Brown there and not the two of them.

The other thing - do teams factor in records and stats for 2020 or is it more that they never happened - especially since folks can get their year back. In the scheme of things - the smallest of issues but was wondering about someone who gets to play 4.3-4.5 years vs 4.

On that note—Mike Poppleton should be on there too. He is by far the best faceoff guy statistically in Hopkins history and has a 2nd team AA on his resume. Career 64%. Though I'm now realizing that there are NO faceoff men on the all-time team whatsoever, including guys like Maimone and Vecchione. Seems a bit weird.

Who votes on this thing? Perhaps recently they've just gotten lazy in updating it. Wells is 2nd all time in assists and 8th in total points...if that's not worthy of the team they should just get rid of the team.

[51percentcorn]

Who votes on this thing? Perhaps recently they've just gotten lazy in updating it. Wells is 2nd all time in assists and 8th in total points...if that's not worthy of the team they should just get rid of the team.

I would buy the laziness factor except Brown is on the team and Wells graduated a year before. At one point I was wondering if they were holding off on Wells because the trajectory of Shack's statitics was going to put him Top 10 in points as well and they thought it would be a good thing to bring them in together but given Shack has been gone two years now I think that little thought is out the window.

[jhu06]

-not sure why they're not doing weekly game replays. They're really underselling the program online. With the team in an awful funk and alumni stuff cancelled for the future, now is the time to reengage. If there is one thing this program has it's history and alumni to sell it.
-58 is ridiculous. Someone will go back and look at the roster sizes of various hop title teams. If the school has a set limit of kids for freshman classes is it really in the best interest of the school to give a spot to a 5th goalie or some kid who busted their hump for 4 years to get valedictorian status and wants to use their 4 years to become a doctor or writer?
-people who want to criticize message board commenters should go look at the rolling loss totals/ncaa tournament win totals of hop sr classes over the last 45 years.
-I'd love to get excited about next years recruits and il classes but we've been here and seen that. I bet msm that nearly beat us at homewood last month had 0 4 star recruits and maybe just a handful of 3 star kids.
-Someone called Dan Arestia asked why pro lax wasn't included on the trump call w/sports commissioners last week. Lax media desperately wants this sport to be taken seriously but these writers are too afraid of their relationships and friends feelings to do an honest deep dive on this program the way we saw with notre dame football when it fell off in the 1990s or Tennessee womens hoops I posted. This is the iconic brand in the sport in a tailspin and we're inundated w/michael sowers rumors. You think if Duke basketball missed the ff 11/12 years or alabama was out of a cff playoff 11/12 years there'd be zero reporting on it?

[HopFan16]

-not sure why they're not doing weekly game replays.

First the Mabbett thing and now this. They...are doing exactly that. They've done three already and each one has gotten pretty solid engagement. Last week they had Mike Pellegrino on board doing live commentary and answering questions and the chat window next to the video is a who's who of Hopkins legends from over the years.

[51percentcorn]

'06 on your last point - Nobody cares - why do you pursue this iconic status thing - it means nothing now. Back in the days - you had Hopkins/Maryland/Navy/UVA/Cornell/Syracuse/Army - then came UNC/Princeton/Duke/Notre Dame - and now we are up to 70 or so D1 programs with Loyola, Yale securing national titles. Do you really think if Hopkins had to compete against all those schools for those players we would be beating our chests about 44 National Titles? No.

BTW - Alabama won 1 SEC title between 1992 and Saban's first title in 2009 - that team went 10-3. You can go back another 11 years from Gene Stallings title team in '92 and one other SEC title. So 27 years -1 National title - 3 SEC titles - sounds somewhat familiar.

[Homewood15]

Couple questions - I know I have asked this before but how can the Stanwicks not be on the All-time JHU team? Is there a criteria they didn't meet? The ONLY thing you can say is they never got above HM AA but they were both 3 X HM AAs. Otherwise it seem the biggest of sleights to have Brown there and not the two of them.

Only accounting for their time at Hopkins and not including any Professional lacrosse play, I'd take Wells and Shack over Ryan Brown.

Brown was a terrific player at Hopkins, but having both Stanwicks feeding you perfect passes allowed him to put up the goal totals he did. Sure, having a shooter like Brown allowed both Stanwicks to pump up their assist totals at Hop, but Wells and Shack made every offensive player on their teams better players and better shooters (and were both great dodgers/shooters in their own right.) In terms of benefitting the offense as a whole Wells and Shack were second to none.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSS1qWmD1s

0:01 - Wells no look to Kieran Eissler

0:09 - Shack catching Cattoni's missed bounce shot right at his knees to a perfect feed to Brown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqMBYXsXsTc

8:11 - Shack Peyton Manning lead pass to Supinski

Ryan Brown was in my opinion the best shooter in the country in '15/'16. But there's no way he should be on the All-Time JHU Team and not Wells or Shack. He benefitted from their play tremendously during his time at Hopkins and is tied-7th with Shack for all-time points at 209, with Wells totaling 208.

[nyjay]

The Stanwicks are both underappreciated. That said, this was the all time JHU lacrosse team. You know, the program with 44 national championships and 182 first team all americans. So OK with me that they got left off. Brown only got on the team due to recency bias. Why Brown over Wells & Shack? Well, both Wells and Shack were really heavily hyped as recruits and so expectations were sky high - #1 recruits are supposed to end up in the Tewaaraton conversation, not as HM AAs (kind of like their older brother). While unfair, neither one of them truly lived up to the hype. The teams they were on were also fairly disappointing, as we all well know. Loved having both of them on the team, seem like first class people and excellent attackmen. If you're not a first team AA and don't win (or even really sniff) a national championship, not sure you really belong on the all time JHU lacrosse team. Sorry, but those are the facts.

I think Brown wears a halo these days because he's the last guy in the program to develop into a star out of nowhere. I mean he was a Dartmouth commit (love the Big Green, but Dartmouth? Really?). I can't say I was reading this forum back in his early days (didn't know it existed, wish I had), but pretty sure no one expected anything out of him. And then he drops 8 on that awful school from central NY as an unheralded sophomore (yeah, we lost but still)? And he does it with that shooting stroke? How could we all not fall in love with that when everything seems to be collapsing around us?

So, much love for the Stanwicks, and it's true that no one from the last 15 years belongs on the all time team, but if it's got to be someone recent, Brown - from underdog to best shooter in the world - has got to be the guy.

[Homewood15]

The Stanwicks are both underappreciated. That said, this was the all time JHU lacrosse team. You know, the program with 44 national championships and 182 first team all americans. So OK with me that they got left off. Brown only got on the team due to recency bias. Why Brown over Wells & Shack? Well, both Wells and Shack were really heavily hyped as recruits and so expectations were sky high - #1 recruits are supposed to end up in the Tewaaraton conversation, not as HM AAs (kind of like their older brother). While unfair, neither one of them truly lived up to the hype. The teams they were on were also fairly disappointing, as we all well know. Loved having both of them on the team, seem like first class people and excellent attackmen. If you're not a first team AA and don't win (or even really sniff) a national championship, not sure you really belong on the all time JHU lacrosse team. Sorry, but those are the facts.

I think Brown wears a halo these days because he's the last guy in the program to develop into a star out of nowhere. I mean he was a Dartmouth commit (love the Big Green, but Dartmouth? Really?). I can't say I was reading this forum back in his early days (didn't know it existed, wish I had), but pretty sure no one expected anything out of him. And then he drops 8 on that awful school from central NY as an unheralded sophomore (yeah, we lost but still)? And he does it with that shooting stroke? How could we all not fall in love with that when everything seems to be collapsing around us?

So, much love for the Stanwicks, and it's true that no one from the last 15 years belongs on the all time team, but if it's got to be someone recent, Brown - from underdog to best shooter in the world - has got to be the guy.

I agree that Ryan developed into the player he is today while wearing the Hopkins jersey while the Stanwicks may have reached their ceiling as underclassmen at JHU. However I do think Wells improved each year, especially as a dodger. Regardless, that shouldn't deter them from this recognition. The record book shows that their on-field contributions to the program are equal to Ryan Browns.

While most NCAA athletes play through injury, I think Shack's rib and back problems his senior year are heavily overlooked by many in the lacrosse community. Drawing the opposing teams best pole with cracked ribs and a bad back (and still finding ways to contribute offensively) is a remarkable feat.

I think we can all agree Ryan is the better lacrosse player today.

[Homewood15]

Couple questions - I know I have asked this before but how can the Stanwicks not be on the All-time JHU team? Is there a criteria they didn't meet? The ONLY thing you can say is they never got above HM AA but they were both 3 X HM AAs. Otherwise it seem the biggest of sleights to have Brown there and not the two of them.

Only accounting for their time at Hopkins and not including any Professional lacrosse play, I'd take Wells and Shack over Ryan Brown.

Brown was a terrific player at Hopkins, but having both Stanwicks feeding you perfect passes allowed him to put up the goal totals he did. Sure, having a shooter like Brown allowed both Stanwicks to pump up their assist totals at Hop, but Wells and Shack made every offensive player on their teams better players and better shooters (and were both great dodgers/shooters in their own right.) In terms of benefitting the offense as a whole Wells and Shack were second to none during 2013-2018.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSS1qWmD1s

0:01 - Wells no look to Kieran Eissler

0:09 - Shack catching Cattoni's missed bounce shot right at his knees to a perfect feed to Brown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqMBYXsXsTc

8:11 - Shack Peyton Manning lead pass to Supinski

Ryan Brown was in my opinion the best shooter in the country in '15/'16. But there's no way he should be on the All-Time JHU Team and not Wells or Shack. He benefitted from their play tremendously during his time at Hopkins and is tied-7th with Shack for all-time points at 209, with Wells totaling 208.

[MDlaxfan76]

The Stanwicks are both underappreciated. That said, this was the all time JHU lacrosse team. You know, the program with 44 national championships and 182 first team all americans. So OK with me that they got left off. Brown only got on the team due to recency bias. Why Brown over Wells & Shack? Well, both Wells and Shack were really heavily hyped as recruits and so expectations were sky high - #1 recruits are supposed to end up in the Tewaaraton conversation, not as HM AAs (kind of like their older brother). While unfair, neither one of them truly lived up to the hype. The teams they were on were also fairly disappointing, as we all well know. Loved having both of them on the team, seem like first class people and excellent attackmen. If you're not a first team AA and don't win (or even really sniff) a national championship, not sure you really belong on the all time JHU lacrosse team. Sorry, but those are the facts.

I think Brown wears a halo these days because he's the last guy in the program to develop into a star out of nowhere. I mean he was a Dartmouth commit (love the Big Green, but Dartmouth? Really?). I can't say I was reading this forum back in his early days (didn't know it existed, wish I had), but pretty sure no one expected anything out of him. And then he drops 8 on that awful school from central NY as an unheralded sophomore (yeah, we lost but still)? And he does it with that shooting stroke? How could we all not fall in love with that when everything seems to be collapsing around us?

So, much love for the Stanwicks, and it's true that no one from the last 15 years belongs on the all time team, but if it's got to be someone recent, Brown - from underdog to best shooter in the world - has got to be the guy.

I'm a Dartmouth guy and didn't know that Ryan had ever been a Dartmouth commit. ahhh well.

My son played against Ryan a bunch of times and with him for a fun tournament in their post junior season summer representing State of Maryland. He was very under appreciated early on, in the shadow of fellow attackmen at Calvert Hall, having transferred in. But it was absolutely clear to me from that tourney that he was a tremendous talent with enormous competitive spirit. He and my goalie son hooked up on an epic play by both of them to tie in the final seconds, then win in OT. Ryan's effort was incredible, all determination.

So, it was no surprise that he continued to develop.
My son said Ryan's shot was the toughest to stop he faced, and that includes a bunch of 1st team AA's shots, including Lyle. Beautiful stroke, hidden head, no idea where the ball was going.

My son played against Wells once and multiple times against Shack. Beautiful, smart players who did anything and everything. Made everyone better around them, and when they needed to, they did it themselves. Happy to say my son was on the winning side each time.

But I'd agree there's an awful lot of extraordinary attackmen to choose from in JHU history. Hard to have anyone on that list who wasn't a multiple time 1st team AA. I get the recency bias as well as the reality that there's a heck of a lot more great players in the way of 1st team AA status, but you gotta use some measure...

Comparing attack QB's with shooters is difficult. If you are constructing a team, you need both.
and if you're evaluating the Stanwicks as QB's across all the decades, would they really be at the top of the Hopkins list?

Really no FOGO's?

[LRoggy]

"I'm a Dartmouth guy and didn't know that Ryan had ever been a Dartmouth commit. ahhh well."

And Ben Reeves was a Hobart commit until he got into Yale . . . ahhh well

[44WeWantMore]

The Stanwicks are both underappreciated. That said, this was the all time JHU lacrosse team. You know, the program with 44 national championships and 182 first team all americans. So OK with me that they got left off. Brown only got on the team due to recency bias. Why Brown over Wells & Shack? Well, both Wells and Shack were really heavily hyped as recruits and so expectations were sky high - #1 recruits are supposed to end up in the Tewaaraton conversation, not as HM AAs (kind of like their older brother). While unfair, neither one of them truly lived up to the hype. The teams they were on were also fairly disappointing, as we all well know. Loved having both of them on the team, seem like first class people and excellent attackmen. If you're not a first team AA and don't win (or even really sniff) a national championship, not sure you really belong on the all time JHU lacrosse team. Sorry, but those are the facts.

I think Brown wears a halo these days because he's the last guy in the program to develop into a star out of nowhere. I mean he was a Dartmouth commit (love the Big Green, but Dartmouth? Really?). I can't say I was reading this forum back in his early days (didn't know it existed, wish I had), but pretty sure no one expected anything out of him. And then he drops 8 on that awful school from central NY as an unheralded sophomore (yeah, we lost but still)? And he does it with that shooting stroke? How could we all not fall in love with that when everything seems to be collapsing around us?

So, much love for the Stanwicks, and it's true that no one from the last 15 years belongs on the all time team, but if it's got to be someone recent, Brown - from underdog to best shooter in the world - has got to be the guy.

I'm a Dartmouth guy and didn't know that Ryan had ever been a Dartmouth commit. ahhh well.

My son played against Ryan a bunch of times and with him for a fun tournament in their post junior season summer representing State of Maryland. He was very under appreciated early on, in the shadow of fellow attackmen at Calvert Hall, having transferred in. But it was absolutely clear to me from that tourney that he was a tremendous talent with enormous competitive spirit. He and my goalie son hooked up on an epic play by both of them to tie in the final seconds, then win in OT. Ryan's effort was incredible, all determination.

So, it was no surprise that he continued to develop.
My son said Ryan's shot was the toughest to stop he faced, and that includes a bunch of 1st team AA's shots, including Lyle. Beautiful stroke, hidden head, no idea where the ball was going.

My son played against Wells once and multiple times against Shack. Beautiful, smart players who did anything and everything. Made everyone better around them, and when they needed to, they did it themselves. Happy to say my son was on the winning side each time.

But I'd agree there's an awful lot of extraordinary attackmen to choose from in JHU history. Hard to have anyone on that list who wasn't a multiple time 1st team AA. I get the recency bias as well as the reality that there's a heck of a lot more great players in the way of 1st team AA status, but you gotta use some measure...

Comparing attack QB's with shooters is difficult. If you are constructing a team, you need both.
and if you're evaluating the Stanwicks as QB's across all the decades, would they really be at the top of the Hopkins list?

Really no FOGO's?

Doug Radebaugh didn't have to GO, but Ned caused the Radebaugh rule-change. Whom would you pick?

[HopFan16]

The Stanwicks are both underappreciated. That said, this was the all time JHU lacrosse team. You know, the program with 44 national championships and 182 first team all americans. So OK with me that they got left off. Brown only got on the team due to recency bias. Why Brown over Wells & Shack? Well, both Wells and Shack were really heavily hyped as recruits and so expectations were sky high - #1 recruits are supposed to end up in the Tewaaraton conversation, not as HM AAs (kind of like their older brother). While unfair, neither one of them truly lived up to the hype. The teams they were on were also fairly disappointing, as we all well know. Loved having both of them on the team, seem like first class people and excellent attackmen. If you're not a first team AA and don't win (or even really sniff) a national championship, not sure you really belong on the all time JHU lacrosse team. Sorry, but those are the facts.

I think Brown wears a halo these days because he's the last guy in the program to develop into a star out of nowhere. I mean he was a Dartmouth commit (love the Big Green, but Dartmouth? Really?). I can't say I was reading this forum back in his early days (didn't know it existed, wish I had), but pretty sure no one expected anything out of him. And then he drops 8 on that awful school from central NY as an unheralded sophomore (yeah, we lost but still)? And he does it with that shooting stroke? How could we all not fall in love with that when everything seems to be collapsing around us?

So, much love for the Stanwicks, and it's true that no one from the last 15 years belongs on the all time team, but if it's got to be someone recent, Brown - from underdog to best shooter in the world - has got to be the guy.

First of all—"recency bias"—what are you talking about? The all-time Hopkins team was established in 1949 and gets added to regularly over the years as guys graduate. If Brown was only added because of recency bias, then so was every other player on the team.

And are we really going to penalize these kids for playing in an era when there are actually other good teams and players? It's much harder to win championships and make All-American teams than it was decades ago.

"Living up to the hype" also shouldn't be a factor. Either they were good players or they weren't. Shack may not have been the best player in the country, but there are a ton of guys on the all-time team who were not the best players in the country while they were in college. There are also a TON of guys who were never 1st team AAs even when that was easier to accomplish.

Brown is 2nd in Hopkins history in goals—the notion he only got in due to recency bias is silly.

[MDlaxfan76]

The Stanwicks are both underappreciated. That said, this was the all time JHU lacrosse team. You know, the program with 44 national championships and 182 first team all americans. So OK with me that they got left off. Brown only got on the team due to recency bias. Why Brown over Wells & Shack? Well, both Wells and Shack were really heavily hyped as recruits and so expectations were sky high - #1 recruits are supposed to end up in the Tewaaraton conversation, not as HM AAs (kind of like their older brother). While unfair, neither one of them truly lived up to the hype. The teams they were on were also fairly disappointing, as we all well know. Loved having both of them on the team, seem like first class people and excellent attackmen. If you're not a first team AA and don't win (or even really sniff) a national championship, not sure you really belong on the all time JHU lacrosse team. Sorry, but those are the facts.

I think Brown wears a halo these days because he's the last guy in the program to develop into a star out of nowhere. I mean he was a Dartmouth commit (love the Big Green, but Dartmouth? Really?). I can't say I was reading this forum back in his early days (didn't know it existed, wish I had), but pretty sure no one expected anything out of him. And then he drops 8 on that awful school from central NY as an unheralded sophomore (yeah, we lost but still)? And he does it with that shooting stroke? How could we all not fall in love with that when everything seems to be collapsing around us?

So, much love for the Stanwicks, and it's true that no one from the last 15 years belongs on the all time team, but if it's got to be someone recent, Brown - from underdog to best shooter in the world - has got to be the guy.

I'm a Dartmouth guy and didn't know that Ryan had ever been a Dartmouth commit. ahhh well.

My son played against Ryan a bunch of times and with him for a fun tournament in their post junior season summer representing State of Maryland. He was very under appreciated early on, in the shadow of fellow attackmen at Calvert Hall, having transferred in. But it was absolutely clear to me from that tourney that he was a tremendous talent with enormous competitive spirit. He and my goalie son hooked up on an epic play by both of them to tie in the final seconds, then win in OT. Ryan's effort was incredible, all determination.

So, it was no surprise that he continued to develop.
My son said Ryan's shot was the toughest to stop he faced, and that includes a bunch of 1st team AA's shots, including Lyle. Beautiful stroke, hidden head, no idea where the ball was going.

My son played against Wells once and multiple times against Shack. Beautiful, smart players who did anything and everything. Made everyone better around them, and when they needed to, they did it themselves. Happy to say my son was on the winning side each time.

But I'd agree there's an awful lot of extraordinary attackmen to choose from in JHU history. Hard to have anyone on that list who wasn't a multiple time 1st team AA. I get the recency bias as well as the reality that there's a heck of a lot more great players in the way of 1st team AA status, but you gotta use some measure...

Comparing attack QB's with shooters is difficult. If you are constructing a team, you need both.
and if you're evaluating the Stanwicks as QB's across all the decades, would they really be at the top of the Hopkins list?

Really no FOGO's?

Doug Radebaugh didn't have to GO, but Ned caused the Radebaugh rule-change. Whom would you pick?

Radebaugh would definitely be on my short list!

I might go for Jerry Schnydman.
First guy I recall really making an art of the position.

Neither had to GO.

[MDlaxfan76]

The Stanwicks are both underappreciated. That said, this was the all time JHU lacrosse team. You know, the program with 44 national championships and 182 first team all americans. So OK with me that they got left off. Brown only got on the team due to recency bias. Why Brown over Wells & Shack? Well, both Wells and Shack were really heavily hyped as recruits and so expectations were sky high - #1 recruits are supposed to end up in the Tewaaraton conversation, not as HM AAs (kind of like their older brother). While unfair, neither one of them truly lived up to the hype. The teams they were on were also fairly disappointing, as we all well know. Loved having both of them on the team, seem like first class people and excellent attackmen. If you're not a first team AA and don't win (or even really sniff) a national championship, not sure you really belong on the all time JHU lacrosse team. Sorry, but those are the facts.

I think Brown wears a halo these days because he's the last guy in the program to develop into a star out of nowhere. I mean he was a Dartmouth commit (love the Big Green, but Dartmouth? Really?). I can't say I was reading this forum back in his early days (didn't know it existed, wish I had), but pretty sure no one expected anything out of him. And then he drops 8 on that awful school from central NY as an unheralded sophomore (yeah, we lost but still)? And he does it with that shooting stroke? How could we all not fall in love with that when everything seems to be collapsing around us?

So, much love for the Stanwicks, and it's true that no one from the last 15 years belongs on the all time team, but if it's got to be someone recent, Brown - from underdog to best shooter in the world - has got to be the guy.

First of all—"recency bias"—what are you talking about? The all-time Hopkins team was established in 1949 and gets added to regularly over the years as guys graduate. If Brown was only added because of recency bias, then so was every other player on the team.

And are we really going to penalize these kids for playing in an era when there are actually other good teams and players? It's much harder to win championships and make All-American teams than it was decades ago.

"Living up to the hype" also shouldn't be a factor. Either they were good players or they weren't. Shack may not have been the best player in the country, but there are a ton of guys on the all-time team who were not the best players in the country while they were in college. There are also a TON of guys who were never 1st team AAs even when that was easier to accomplish.

Brown is 2nd in Hopkins history in goals—the notion he only got in due to recency bias is silly.

Good argument.
Link to "all-time" list?