JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[jhu72]

A believable time line and story.

[old salt]

A believable time line and story.

If that's accurate, it's clear that either Capt Crozier or RAdm Baker had to go. They could not function together. Modly chose Crozier to go.
We've read Crozier's side of the story. It will be interesting to learn Baker's.

If accurate, I'll be interested to learn more about the exchange the VCNO had during his investigation with the senior embarked medical officer.

The NYT report claims that 8 crew members with severe symptoms had been sent ashore to the Naval Hospital on Guam ? Any in ICU ? Previous reports were that all +'s were asymptomatic or with mild symptoms not requiring hospitalization.

Modly gave the crew one good piece of advice -- never trust the media. They are not your friends.

Within 30 min of Modly's speech to the crew, illicit recordings of it were going viral on social media. So much for "River City 1" communications discipline on the TR. ...imagine if Fletcher Christian had had a Facebook page & Twitter account.

The first crew member did not show symptoms until 13 days after departing DaNang. Think about how this would have played out if after departing DaNang, instead of being scheduled to return to Guam, the TR had sailed W toward the ME to relieve the IKE (which was their likely future sched). Where would the TR have pulled in to off load crew members when cases started popping up -- probably Diego Garcia, a small island in the middle of the Indian Ocean, with a port & airfield, but no hotels to support 3000+ sailors in isolation for 14 days.

[DocBarrister]

Sadly, a sailor from the USS Theodore Roosevelt has died from coronavirus. Nearly 600 others are infected.

BREAKING: A sailor assigned to the USS Theodore Roosevelt died of complications from the novel coronavirus, the Navy said. There have been at least 585 confirmed infections among the crew of the ship, whose commander was removed after raising alarm about the Navy’s handling of the outbreak.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... test-news/

We can end the debate now. Capt. Crozier did the right thing. Even a few more days delay and we could have been looking at catastrophic casualties.

DocBarrister

[runrussellrun]

Sadly, a sailor from the USS Theodore Roosevelt has died from coronavirus. Nearly 600 others are infected.

BREAKING: A sailor assigned to the USS Theodore Roosevelt died of complications from the novel coronavirus, the Navy said. There have been at least 585 confirmed infections among the crew of the ship, whose commander was removed after raising alarm about the Navy’s handling of the outbreak.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... test-news/

We can end the debate now. Capt. Crozier did the right thing. Even a few more days delay and we could have been looking at catastrophic casualties.

DocBarrister

Know it all DOC.....
Can you join the US Navy if you have asthma?

You don't seem to care when our military helicopters crash, killing dozens. Or, did you blame tRump for the Niger incident? yup....

Did they test the sailors for the annual FLU as well? if not, why not? exactly\

fear porn is powerful. Believe the numbers........even though they change by the second.....BELIEVE them.

DoC, how did a south dakota meat packing plant get hundreds and hundreds of Covid-19 test kits ? HOW

[MDlaxfan76]

Very few in this saga in various positions of actual authority acted as swiftly as they should have, in retrospect. The degree of the slow responses, at various levels, however does very considerably. From simply too slow, to downright grossly slow.

In this matter, seems to me that they listened to the captain once he sent up the 'flare'. As they should have. Should they have reacted more swiftly from the outset? sure, but I'd bet they thought they were doing enough, fast enough. This most likely wasn't some sort of cover-up or denial of reality.

You have no basis for those assertions. It's pure speculation on your part. You have no idea what efforts were underway.
I'm willing to wait for the investigation to learn what the plans & preparations were before Crozier's email.
Listen to SecDef Esper @ 7:00 & 8:45 where he refutes your false narrative : https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 ... r-full.cnn
You spouted the same unfounded opinion about the "fiddling" in getting the Comfort underway.
We later learned that the DoN had a plan in place to expedite the preps to get underway & did just that as soon as they got the go signal.
They got to NYC before the city was prepared to host them or use their capabilities.

I simply read what they said in the press conference, Salty.
It was clear that they did have plans, but that they accelerated after the 'flare'.

I'm not saying whether or not they were moving too slow (just not quickly enough from crozier's perspective or not communicating sufficiently with him), but they do acknowledge picking up the pace after the flare and they don't seem upset by that, other than the awkwardness caused for communications with families. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt all the way up to...Modly.

Modly, however, does sound defensive, but he's also not saying that Crozier violated chain of command, much less exposed classified information.

It was Modly's subsequent actions to remove Crozier and then his explanation to Ignatius that he was preempting Trump's involvement, and then his insults of Crozier to his crew that the wheels came off entirely for Modly.

Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.

And on the COVID-19 matter of urgency, my feeling is that none of us took as swift an action, whether individually or collectively, with the degree of urgency that this actually required.

I give us all somewhat of a pass given our lack of prior experience. That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.

It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.

[old salt]

Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.

That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.

It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.

I'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.

If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.

[Farfromgeneva]

Far/MD - last post here,
Far if you think your relative is blowing smoke up skirts, ask him a few questions, you will find out pretty quickly if he claims he did or is what he claims. Second it is not uncommon for the lower pay-grade enlisted folks to have 2nd jobs. The reality is they do not get paid allot of money. Selling weed now that is a no, no. Finally if your relative is embellishing he will get called on it eventually. I have seen embellishment on resumes and in job interviews in the business world. Unfortunately that happens but I like to think most people are good and honorable people.

MD,
You talk about leadership, battle and taking care of his men. I applaud that. No one is arguing that. What has been debated (the lens) is the coc and what was the mission. That is the forest, you are looking at a big redwood but it is still a tree. There is was no reason why classified information went out in an unsecured setting nor the coc was not followed nor the SF Chronicle got wind of this. He is worried about his crew. But his ship is an invaluable asset both as a deterrent and for air power and probably off the top of my head put about 20,000 sailors, soldiers, marines and airmen in jeopardy. The Chinese and Russians (they share with the Iranians) have tin cans flying in geo-orbit, seeing what is going on, but what was going on the ship and in the group has now been publicly announced. There were better ways to communicate and handle the situation, slip over to Guam and keep them guessing and the military is like any bureaucracy, it does not move at the speed of light. On top of that the whole left has to be filled and you have all kinds of folks at the Pentagon, NORAD, and a few others creating action plans. That is what people are thinking about, it is not just the crew. IMHO 99% of people who had their hands in this cared about the crew. As to Trump, every thread out here is is nothing but rants on the guy. I did not vote for him and believe many of the things people have written about him but based on just your rants, you should be thanking Modley because he tried keeping Trump OUT of the Navy's business. Finally, again your observation about my feelings on the virus are totally misplaced.

Enjoy Easter

My cousin is 61, not like 28. Lives in York Pa has five kids of his own and raised on that was the daughter of an ex girlfriend who was a dangerous alcoholic. Also started a small non profit for displaced veterans in his area (York PA). Great human being, also has a mullet and runs a commercial welding shop (business) and works from 5am to 4-5pm, owns two rental houses and does ok overall. But I know he was heck around when he enlisted, college wasn’t even a thought back then eventually got an AA. He was in San Diego for his service not sure if he finished two years before being blown out. He never served anywhere hot and likely wouldn’t of back then unless the Cold War got hot.

So when he’s on talking about certain military things publicly I always think in my head “didn’t you screw around for a year or two of domestic service and get yourself shot from your weed side hustle so why are you blasting all this bellicose military talk like you got bucket holes in you from saving a down chopper in Nam?”

Doesn’t mean we’re not close except in age but it does provide an example of how you can’t just say that only people who’ve served can discuss these topics and that with service comes this expertise on all things military. And I know he’s not the only outlier here. Last 20-30yrs the military has become the white person outlet that pro sports, rapping and drug dealing was for masses of poor black kids. A lot of them join out of life necessity.

[MDlaxfan76]

Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.

That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.

It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.

I'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.

If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.

Man, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.

If I made any 'sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command" (which I did not) it was leaning to the positive that lots of folks cared, wanted to do the right thing.

However the cues from above, outside the military, and apparently in Modley's mind were far less urgent.

That's where the foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it appears to have been happening. The military folks appear to have been attempting to do their jobs, albeit almost no one in authority (and I mean outside the military) was responding to the virus sufficiently urgently. As I said, some of this was just slow, some was grossly slow. It does matter.

On Modly, it's just not a close call, IMO.
He was taking his cues from above.
He got embarrassed and worried about Trump.
He admitted as much to Ignatius on the latter, the embarrassment is my reading into it.

Now, whether this actually came down from the White House through Esper to Modly, I dunno, but as far as you guys are concerned, whatever the Commander in Chief says, it's an order. And orders must be followed. Right away.

Tweets and all?

[cradleandshoot]

The level of ignorance here is stunning. Thank you Old Salt for being the only person on this forum with an educated view, gained from years of experience as an actual naval officer. I am willing to bet at this point that even MDs guest in his basement probably has a more intelligent perspective than he does. MD my only advice to you... when you have already dug yourself into a hole so deep that you can't climb out of it... it is time to stop digging. You do realize MD (no you don't) you look more like a blithering idiot every day. Even the marshmallow fluff republicans are going to start turning on you pretty soon. This is what happens when a REMF sticks his opinion where it does not belong. The definition of a REMF is a person who is so far in the rear of the action that they think they have the clearest view of what is going on many miles in front of them.

[MDlaxfan76]

[cradleandshoot]

i thank you Salty for giving us educated knowledge gained from years of experience. MD... nothing left to say except maybe you should unlock the door to the basement and let your brother in law have some input on the conversation.

[old salt]

Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.

That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.

It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.

I'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.

If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.

Man, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.

If I made any 'sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command" (which I did not) it was leaning to the positive that lots of folks cared, wanted to do the right thing.

However the cues from above, outside the military, and apparently in Modley's mind were far less urgent.

That's where the foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it appears to have been happening. The military folks appear to have been attempting to do their jobs, albeit almost no one in authority (and I mean outside the military) was responding to the virus sufficiently urgently. As I said, some of this was just slow, some was grossly slow. It does matter.

On Modly, it's just not a close call, IMO.
He was taking his cues from above.
He got embarrassed and worried about Trump.
He admitted as much to Ignatius on the latter, the embarrassment is my reading into it.

Now, whether this actually came down from the White House through Esper to Modly, I dunno, but as far as you guys are concerned, whatever the Commander in Chief says, it's an order. And orders must be followed. Right away.

Tweets and all?

Are you asserting that Modly, or anyone else in the CoC, was " foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it " because they were concerned about Trump ? Yes or No ?

[cradleandshoot]

You looked confused as always. It ain't that hard to figure out skippy. You need to ask your brother in law in the basement.

[cradleandshoot]

Keep digging MD, keep digging...

[cradleandshoot]

MD you are going to need a shovel with a longer handle. I am going to have to start calling you "grave digger" yer getting down that deep.

[old salt]

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6148127067001#sp=show-clips

[MDlaxfan76]

Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.

That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.

It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.

I'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.

If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.

Man, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.

If I made any 'sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command" (which I did not) it was leaning to the positive that lots of folks cared, wanted to do the right thing.

However the cues from above, outside the military, and apparently in Modley's mind were far less urgent.

That's where the foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it appears to have been happening. The military folks appear to have been attempting to do their jobs, albeit almost no one in authority (and I mean outside the military) was responding to the virus sufficiently urgently. As I said, some of this was just slow, some was grossly slow. It does matter.

On Modly, it's just not a close call, IMO.
He was taking his cues from above.
He got embarrassed and worried about Trump.
He admitted as much to Ignatius on the latter, the embarrassment is my reading into it.

Now, whether this actually came down from the White House through Esper to Modly, I dunno, but as far as you guys are concerned, whatever the Commander in Chief says, it's an order. And orders must be followed. Right away.

Tweets and all?

Are you asserting that Modly, or anyone else in the CoC, was " foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it " because they were concerned about Trump ? Yes or No ?

I really don't know (nor do you) whether Modly was letting his perceptions about Trump's dismissiveness about COVID-19 impact his judgment as to urgency. Maybe, maybe not. Clearly Crozier thought the process was moving too slowly, not urgently enough. Enough so that he sent up the 'flare'.

What we do know about Modly's mindset is what he subsequently admitted to Ignatius and then his statements to the crew. Beyond that is supposition about the possible.

[cradleandshoot]

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6148127067001#sp=show-clips

Sounds like Gen Keane is telling us the same you have been telling us OS. Captain Crozier wrote this letter knowing it was going to possibly end his naval career. i am sure that there are folks at CNN willing to pay him a kings ransom to become their expert military analyst. Captain Crozier will land on his feet and do just fine when this is all said and done.

[cradleandshoot]

Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.

That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.

It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.

I'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.

If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.

Man, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.

If I made any 'sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command" (which I did not) it was leaning to the positive that lots of folks cared, wanted to do the right thing.

However the cues from above, outside the military, and apparently in Modley's mind were far less urgent.

That's where the foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it appears to have been happening. The military folks appear to have been attempting to do their jobs, albeit almost no one in authority (and I mean outside the military) was responding to the virus sufficiently urgently. As I said, some of this was just slow, some was grossly slow. It does matter.

On Modly, it's just not a close call, IMO.
He was taking his cues from above.
He got embarrassed and worried about Trump.
He admitted as much to Ignatius on the latter, the embarrassment is my reading into it.

Now, whether this actually came down from the White House through Esper to Modly, I dunno, but as far as you guys are concerned, whatever the Commander in Chief says, it's an order. And orders must be followed. Right away.

Tweets and all?

Are you asserting that Modly, or anyone else in the CoC, was " foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it " because they were concerned about Trump ? Yes or No ?

I really don't know (nor do you) whether Modly was letting his perceptions about Trump's dismissiveness about COVID-19 impact his judgment as to urgency. Maybe, maybe not. Clearly Crozier thought the process was moving too slowly, not urgently enough. Enough so that he sent up the 'flare'.

What we do know about Modly's mindset is what he subsequently admitted to Ignatius and then his statements to the crew. Beyond that is supposition about the possible.

Unless your ship is sinking there is no need for the flares is there? Captain Crozier had not even seen the iceberg yet before he decided to send up the flares. For the record IMO Modly was a pure weed. He should have and could have waited for a report from the navy brass. i was not aware of his flight to and idiotic speech to the crew of the TR. What a dumb ass move that was.

[old salt]

Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.

That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.

It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.

I'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.

If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.

Man, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.

If I made any 'sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command" (which I did not) it was leaning to the positive that lots of folks cared, wanted to do the right thing.

However the cues from above, outside the military, and apparently in Modley's mind were far less urgent.

That's where the foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it appears to have been happening. The military folks appear to have been attempting to do their jobs, albeit almost no one in authority (and I mean outside the military) was responding to the virus sufficiently urgently. As I said, some of this was just slow, some was grossly slow. It does matter.

On Modly, it's just not a close call, IMO.
He was taking his cues from above.
He got embarrassed and worried about Trump.
He admitted as much to Ignatius on the latter, the embarrassment is my reading into it.

Now, whether this actually came down from the White House through Esper to Modly, I dunno, but as far as you guys are concerned, whatever the Commander in Chief says, it's an order. And orders must be followed. Right away.

Tweets and all?

Are you asserting that Modly, or anyone else in the CoC, was " foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it " because they were concerned about Trump ? Yes or No ?

I really don't know (nor do you) whether Modly was letting his perceptions about Trump's dismissiveness about COVID-19 impact his judgment as to urgency. Maybe, maybe not. Clearly Crozier thought the process was moving too slowly, not urgently enough. Enough so that he sent up the 'flare'.

What we do know about Modly's mindset is what he subsequently admitted to Ignatius and then his statements to the crew. Beyond that is supposition about the possible.

OK. You admit you don't know if Trump influenced the urgency with which Modly was getting help to the TR, just that Trump influenced Modly's decision to relieve Crozier. Is that accurate ?

You're still dodging the rest of the question. Are you asserting that anyone else in the chain of command (other than Modly) was "foot dragging or fiddling or whatever you want to call it" because they were concerned about Trump ? Yes or No ?