JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

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MDlaxfan76
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:20 am Revisiting history: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/off- ... eir-heads/

I was wondering about the history of firing IGs. Not unprecedented. Not sure that makes it right.
Gee, TLD, I wonder if there's actually an issue there.

So, let's say the DoD IG finds that the military has been not only slow to address the virus spread, they have been concerned about how Trump might react if they moved fast to address it...'off with his head' ???

Or found that Trump appointees were taking bribes from defense contractors, "off with his head"???

Or flip the parties, next Dem POTUS...

IG's are fine as long as they don't find anything wrong with those political in charge?
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by LandM »

MD,
Go to Syria how about Iraq then journey over to Afghanistan stop by Iran and say hi and hit Libya along the way.
The Captain compromised his ship, his crew and the USN. Along the way to going nuclear, he compromised the flipping whole military, You and others think this is pity potty - you will find few who have ever served taking his side. That is a HUGE asset he took off the map. For DT, are you flipping serious. Man, I have a bridge to sell you in FL or AK...let me know the number, What is ridiculous with a capital R is that you and others a. do not get it, b. do not understand a Chain, and c. trying to blame DT. He has his own issues and this is NOT one of them.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by RedFromMI »

LandM wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:12 pm MD,
Go to Syria how about Iraq then journey over to Afghanistan stop by Iran and say hi and hit Libya along the way.
The Captain compromised his ship, his crew and the USN. Along the way to going nuclear, he compromised the flipping whole military, You and others think this is pity potty - you will find few who have ever served taking his side. That is a HUGE asset he took off the map. For DT, are you flipping serious. Man, I have a bridge to sell you in FL or AK...let me know the number, What is ridiculous with a capital R is that you and others a. do not get it, b. do not understand a Chain, and c. trying to blame DT. He has his own issues and this is NOT one of them.
Trump has a piece of it because he micromanages those beneath him. So someone like Modly knows there will be hell to pay if anything happens that Trump thinks makes his image bad. So decisions don't get made always for the correct reasons.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

Poorly informed, partisan second guessers would be wise to pay attention to the words of the Command Master Chief of the Navy in the 1 Apr presser, re-linked below. (can't excerpt because it's pdf).
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/people/se ... red%29.pdf

There are few more effective comm channels in the Navy than the network of Command Master Chiefs (CMC's), down to each command's Chiefs Mess.
If you want to "get the word out", unfiltered, send your message via the goat locker.

Sec Modly says he received a personal email from an enlisted member on the TR indicating that conditions were not as dire as indicated in the CO's signal flare email. (it was separately reported that Crozier had not shown his email to his CMC before sending it.) Then Master Chief Smith explained the impact of the signal flare on the families of the crew & the family ombudsman network. He concluded by indicating that his contacts on the TR were not expressing the same degree of urgency to him as expressed in the signal flare email.
Last edited by old salt on Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by LandM »

MD,
BTW, you are a ground commander. Your best asset is flying over your head. Now an asset is off the table with a CAG group because a Beavis decides he is NOT liking the answers even though he has the personal cell of the SECofNavy, he is the back-up to the back-up. You go into a bad situation - bad situations still need to be supported by the main asset. You gonna leave 1,000 dudes in a bad? What are you calling in? There is no ball to call. You have no clue as to what you speak. No one is arguing with the Captain taking care of his crew. He did so in an unsecured setting, told the world and NO DT had no flipping clue what he the SecofNavy was doing, please get over yourself and please go do a stint, you TLD and CU, I need a good laugh. BTW, get the security clearance you all claim you know so much about............
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

LandM wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:26 pm MD,
BTW, you are a ground commander. Your best asset is flying over your head. Now an asset is off the table with a CAG group because a Beavis decides he is NOT liking the answers even though he has the personal cell of the SECofNavy, he is the back-up to the back-up. You go into a bad situation - bad situations still need to be supported by the main asset. You gonna leave 1,000 dudes in a bad? What are you calling in? There is no ball to call. You have no clue as to what you speak. No one is arguing with the Captain taking care of his crew. He did so in an unsecured setting, told the world and NO DT had no flipping clue what he the SecofNavy was doing, please get over yourself and please go do a stint, you TLD and CU, I need a good laugh. BTW, get the security clearance you all claim you know so much about............
I am not sure I commented on the Navy guy being fired.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That’s a good laugh!
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by LandM »

TLD,
What is a good laugh is you and MD in circular thinking DT as pinned as the guy who fired the Captain and is creating havoc on the Navy. So what an IG gets canned, has it ever happened before?
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:11 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:24 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:49 am cradle, I agree that Crozier likely knew the outcome of his decision would be his removal.
I don't hear him whining about it.

But you are absolutely wrong about his having put the nation in peril, his "mission" in peril.

Covid-19 did that.

And every moment that his chain of command dawdled (apparently because Modly was concerned about what Trump would think), Covid-19 was winning, spreading exponentially, taking more and more of his people out of action.

Crozier's action will get the ship back to sea faster, defending American interests if necessary, than if he'd simply 'followed orders'.

In my book, that fulfills both mission and the imperative to protect his people against unnecessary cost.

But sure, it cost him his command.

Again, that's the guy people will follow into hell.

Modly, not so much.
Again MD. Your lack of k knowledge and understanding shines through. Captain Crozier was tasked with a mission when he sailed . I do not know what that mission was. If the circumstances determined his mission was in danger his response should have been kept top secret to his superiors period end of story. I understand his loyalty to his crew. That loyalty does not supercede his obligation to his mission and what his orders were that he was given. He fouled up big time. It is not and never will be in his discretion to ignore his orders over the welfare of his sailors. You do remember all those kamikaze attacks on our ships during ww2. Using your logic those captains could have whined about the dangers to their crew and asked to withdraw to safer waters. Rule #1 always takes precedent MD. As a commanding officer you follow heck orders, not just the ones you like.
sorry cradle, no one is citing some sort of war time mission that was put in jeopardy. Not even Modly.

Crozier himself makes clear that he has no such mission.

Sure, the US projects power with these ships and sure we do need them to be ready for action, but that's exactly the point, the ship was under siege from a non-human enemy and the only way to combat it was to get to a position to quarantine sick of healthy, test and test again to get folks ready to re-board, and scrub her down..get back to sea.

Our CoC is constantly declaring himself a 'wartime President' and we know he doesn't mean the Chinese or the Mexicans or the Muslims (much as he might like to find a scapegoat). He's talking about the virus, the "unseen enemy"...and that's what Crozier was fighting in real time, with no time to waste. His ship, his people, were under direct attack.

I totally get the chain of command and following orders, etc, etc. I also understand the need for discipline.

But we also teach, at least in the modern military, for our commanders in the field to adapt to conditions as they find them, rapidly when necessary.

And I have no doubt that Crozier was willing to sacrifice his career to do the right thing 'in the field'.

The hypocrisy of those who think Gallagher was some sort of hero in posing with a dead 16 yr old, and having lost the trust and confidence of his fellow warriors, yet think Crozier should have 'followed orders'..really galling.
Are you serious, of course he had a mission. Do you think the ship was just out on a pleasure cruise? I doubt the Captain Crozier would be dumb enough to state publicly what his ships mission was. In case you were unaware that kind of information is classified. In the world of carrier groups even their whereabouts on the open sea is classified. maybe I am wrong, maybe this is the new navy. His orders might have been sail thisaway for a little, then go sail thataway for a little while. maybe if yer in the mood there skipper you can launch some planes and watch them fly around doing barrel rolls. :roll: The point is so freaking simple it amazes me if keeps flying way over your head like it was an F18. Whatever his concerns were should have been kept top secret and should have gone through the proper channels of his command. He violated that rule and is unconscionable for a commanding officer in the US Navy to do so. Everything I have read about this officer has been exemplary up until this poor decision on his part. i am sure in his mind he was justified. The US Navy will never look at it that way. A commanding officer in his position is not allowed to make such a foolish decision. This is one of those instances where you really listen to what OS is saying. Why would i expect you to listen to a career naval officer who has been there and done it?
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

LandM wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:42 pm TLD,
What is a good laugh is you and MD in circular thinking DT as pinned as the guy who fired the Captain and is creating havoc on the Navy. So what an IG gets canned, has it ever happened before?
I didn’t comment on the guy being fired. I posted a link to the article which stated Reagan fired all the IG’s left over from Carter, so IGs have been fired before. Not sure firing them a makes it right...not sure it makes it wrong.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

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cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:56 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:11 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:24 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:49 am cradle, I agree that Crozier likely knew the outcome of his decision would be his removal.
I don't hear him whining about it.

But you are absolutely wrong about his having put the nation in peril, his "mission" in peril.

Covid-19 did that.

And every moment that his chain of command dawdled (apparently because Modly was concerned about what Trump would think), Covid-19 was winning, spreading exponentially, taking more and more of his people out of action.

Crozier's action will get the ship back to sea faster, defending American interests if necessary, than if he'd simply 'followed orders'.

In my book, that fulfills both mission and the imperative to protect his people against unnecessary cost.

But sure, it cost him his command.

Again, that's the guy people will follow into hell.

Modly, not so much.
Again MD. Your lack of k knowledge and understanding shines through. Captain Crozier was tasked with a mission when he sailed . I do not know what that mission was. If the circumstances determined his mission was in danger his response should have been kept top secret to his superiors period end of story. I understand his loyalty to his crew. That loyalty does not supercede his obligation to his mission and what his orders were that he was given. He fouled up big time. It is not and never will be in his discretion to ignore his orders over the welfare of his sailors. You do remember all those kamikaze attacks on our ships during ww2. Using your logic those captains could have whined about the dangers to their crew and asked to withdraw to safer waters. Rule #1 always takes precedent MD. As a commanding officer you follow heck orders, not just the ones you like.
sorry cradle, no one is citing some sort of war time mission that was put in jeopardy. Not even Modly.

Crozier himself makes clear that he has no such mission.

Sure, the US projects power with these ships and sure we do need them to be ready for action, but that's exactly the point, the ship was under siege from a non-human enemy and the only way to combat it was to get to a position to quarantine sick of healthy, test and test again to get folks ready to re-board, and scrub her down..get back to sea.

Our CoC is constantly declaring himself a 'wartime President' and we know he doesn't mean the Chinese or the Mexicans or the Muslims (much as he might like to find a scapegoat). He's talking about the virus, the "unseen enemy"...and that's what Crozier was fighting in real time, with no time to waste. His ship, his people, were under direct attack.

I totally get the chain of command and following orders, etc, etc. I also understand the need for discipline.

But we also teach, at least in the modern military, for our commanders in the field to adapt to conditions as they find them, rapidly when necessary.

And I have no doubt that Crozier was willing to sacrifice his career to do the right thing 'in the field'.

The hypocrisy of those who think Gallagher was some sort of hero in posing with a dead 16 yr old, and having lost the trust and confidence of his fellow warriors, yet think Crozier should have 'followed orders'..really galling.
Are you serious, of course he had a mission. Do you think the ship was just out on a pleasure cruise? I doubt the Captain Crozier would be dumb enough to state publicly what his ships mission was. In case you were unaware that kind of information is classified. In the world of carrier groups even their whereabouts on the open sea is classified. maybe I am wrong, maybe this is the new navy. His orders might have been sail thisaway for a little, then go sail thataway for a little while. maybe if yer in the mood there skipper you can launch some planes and watch them fly around doing barrel rolls. :roll: The point is so freaking simple it amazes me if keeps flying way over your head like it was an F18. Whatever his concerns were should have been kept top secret and should have gone through the proper channels of his command. He violated that rule and is unconscionable for a commanding officer in the US Navy to do so. Everything I have read about this officer has been exemplary up until this poor decision on his part. i am sure in his mind he was justified. The US Navy will never look at it that way. A commanding officer in his position is not allowed to make such a foolish decision. This is one of those instances where you really listen to what OS is saying. Why would i expect you to listen to a career naval officer who has been there and done it?
OS has commanded a ship at Crozier's level?
Didn't know that. :roll:

I'm with you that he knew he was outside of the chain of command and was likely sacrificing his career.

I was careful to say, 'wartime mission' not just 'mission'. Of course he had a 'mission'. :roll:

Where you lose me is "unconscionable" and "foolish".
Nope, I think was an act of conscience and it was entirely well considered, weighing his own knowledge of the 'mission' and the health of his people and the readiness of his ship.

I see an American hero, you see what?
a coward, a bum, a deranged officer...what?
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:19 pm
LandM wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:42 pm TLD,
What is a good laugh is you and MD in circular thinking DT as pinned as the guy who fired the Captain and is creating havoc on the Navy. So what an IG gets canned, has it ever happened before?
I didn’t comment on the guy being fired. I posted a link to the article which stated Reagan fired all the IG’s left over from Carter, so IGs have been fired before. Not sure firing them a makes it right...not sure it makes it wrong.
What I think is funny is LandM not knowing it was a separate topic. :roll:
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

LandM wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:26 pm MD,
BTW, you are a ground commander. Your best asset is flying over your head. Now an asset is off the table with a CAG group because a Beavis decides he is NOT liking the answers even though he has the personal cell of the SECofNavy, he is the back-up to the back-up. You go into a bad situation - bad situations still need to be supported by the main asset. You gonna leave 1,000 dudes in a bad? What are you calling in? There is no ball to call. You have no clue as to what you speak. No one is arguing with the Captain taking care of his crew. He did so in an unsecured setting, told the world and NO DT had no flipping clue what he the SecofNavy was doing, please get over yourself and please go do a stint, you TLD and CU, I need a good laugh. BTW, get the security clearance you all claim you know so much about............
I didn't claim DT had any idea about this.
Modly says he made the decision to avoid DT's involvement, I didn't.
He said he knew DT wouldn't like it...

And if you had bothered to read what I wrote, I made clear that the TR was not in a position to support any of those ground commanders you claim to care about. And Crozier's decision puts the 'asset' back into action faster than if they'd simply let the virus rage through the crew.

Of course, if you are arguing that the TR should have just steamed forward, let the virus spread, and simply take whatever serious illnesses and death may have then occurred, go for it.

I haven't heard anyone take that position...but if you'd like to put your hand up for that one, fine.

But if not, then the fastest way to get the TR back into action was to get that crew off the ship fast, separated and quarantined, tested for virus, ship cleaned, and then back on board with the crew tested clean and other tested sailors as necessary.

Again, assuming you actually care about those field commanders on the ground, that's the fastest path to supporting them.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:25 pm Poorly informed, partisan second guessers would be wise to pay attention to the words of the Command Master Chief of the Navy in the 1 Apr presser, re-linked below. (can't excerpt because it's pdf).
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/people/se ... red%29.pdf

There are few more effective comm channels in the Navy than the network of Command Master Chiefs (CMC's), down to each command's Chiefs Mess.
If you want to "get the word out", unfiltered, send your message via the goat locker.

Sec Modly says he received a personal email from an enlisted member on the TR indicating that conditions were not as dire as indicated in the CO's signal flare email. (it was separately reported that Crozier had not shown his email to his CMC before sending it.) Then Master Chief Smith explained the impact of the signal flare on the families of the crew & the family ombudsman network. He concluded by indicating that his contacts on the TR were not expressing the same degree of urgency to him as expressed in the signal flare email.
Love to see the evidence of that story.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:02 pm
LandM wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:26 pm MD,
BTW, you are a ground commander. Your best asset is flying over your head. Now an asset is off the table with a CAG group because a Beavis decides he is NOT liking the answers even though he has the personal cell of the SECofNavy, he is the back-up to the back-up. You go into a bad situation - bad situations still need to be supported by the main asset. You gonna leave 1,000 dudes in a bad? What are you calling in? There is no ball to call. You have no clue as to what you speak. No one is arguing with the Captain taking care of his crew. He did so in an unsecured setting, told the world and NO DT had no flipping clue what he the SecofNavy was doing, please get over yourself and please go do a stint, you TLD and CU, I need a good laugh. BTW, get the security clearance you all claim you know so much about............
I didn't claim DT had any idea about this.
Modly says he made the decision to avoid DT's involvement, I didn't.
He said he knew DT wouldn't like it...

And if you had bothered to read what I wrote, I made clear that the TR was not in a position to support any of those ground commanders you claim to care about. And Crozier's decision puts the 'asset' back into action faster than if they'd simply let the virus rage through the crew.

Of course, if you are arguing that the TR should have just steamed forward, let the virus spread, and simply take whatever serious illnesses and death may have then occurred, go for it.

I haven't heard anyone take that position...but if you'd like to put your hand up for that one, fine.

But if not, then the fastest way to get the TR back into action was to get that crew off the ship fast, separated and quarantined, tested for virus, ship cleaned, and then back on board with the crew tested clean and other tested sailors as necessary.

Again, assuming you actually care about those field commanders on the ground, that's the fastest path to supporting them.
The fastest way to support the field commanders on the ground in the ME & S Korea, is to get the TR back to sea asap to join the Ike in the ME, before the Ike has to head home, provided the RR can sail from Yokosuka to cover the WPac overwatch.

The fastest, safest way to do that is best decided by the Navy CoC (including Navy med officers) & not a bunch of partisan media & political hacks, who view every crisis thru TDS tinted goggles & exploit it as a way to hammer Trump, regardless of the collateral damage they inflict.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:04 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:25 pm Poorly informed, partisan second guessers would be wise to pay attention to the words of the Command Master Chief of the Navy in the 1 Apr presser, re-linked below. (can't excerpt because it's pdf).
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/people/se ... red%29.pdf

There are few more effective comm channels in the Navy than the network of Command Master Chiefs (CMC's), down to each command's Chiefs Mess.
If you want to "get the word out", unfiltered, send your message via the goat locker.

Sec Modly says he received a personal email from an enlisted member on the TR indicating that conditions were not as dire as indicated in the CO's signal flare email. (it was separately reported that Crozier had not shown his email to his CMC before sending it.) Then Master Chief Smith explained the impact of the signal flare on the families of the crew & the family ombudsman network. He concluded by indicating that his contacts on the TR were not expressing the same degree of urgency to him as expressed in the signal flare email.
Love to see the evidence of that story.
So you don't believe what the Senior Enlisted Man in the Navy told the assembled Pentagon press corps.
Did you even bother to read what he said in the press conf ?
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:00 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:02 pm
LandM wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:26 pm MD,
BTW, you are a ground commander. Your best asset is flying over your head. Now an asset is off the table with a CAG group because a Beavis decides he is NOT liking the answers even though he has the personal cell of the SECofNavy, he is the back-up to the back-up. You go into a bad situation - bad situations still need to be supported by the main asset. You gonna leave 1,000 dudes in a bad? What are you calling in? There is no ball to call. You have no clue as to what you speak. No one is arguing with the Captain taking care of his crew. He did so in an unsecured setting, told the world and NO DT had no flipping clue what he the SecofNavy was doing, please get over yourself and please go do a stint, you TLD and CU, I need a good laugh. BTW, get the security clearance you all claim you know so much about............
I didn't claim DT had any idea about this.
Modly says he made the decision to avoid DT's involvement, I didn't.
He said he knew DT wouldn't like it...

And if you had bothered to read what I wrote, I made clear that the TR was not in a position to support any of those ground commanders you claim to care about. And Crozier's decision puts the 'asset' back into action faster than if they'd simply let the virus rage through the crew.

Of course, if you are arguing that the TR should have just steamed forward, let the virus spread, and simply take whatever serious illnesses and death may have then occurred, go for it.

I haven't heard anyone take that position...but if you'd like to put your hand up for that one, fine.

But if not, then the fastest way to get the TR back into action was to get that crew off the ship fast, separated and quarantined, tested for virus, ship cleaned, and then back on board with the crew tested clean and other tested sailors as necessary.

Again, assuming you actually care about those field commanders on the ground, that's the fastest path to supporting them.
The fastest way to support the field commanders on the ground in the ME & S Korea, is to get the TR back to sea asap to join the Ike in the ME, before the Ike has to head home, provided the RR can sail from Yokosuka to cover the WPac overwatch.

The fastest, safest way to do that is best decided by the Navy CoC (including Navy med officers) & not a bunch of partisan media & political hacks, who view every crisis thru TDS tinted goggles & exploit it as a way to hammer Trump, regardless of the collateral damage they inflict.
I agree with your first paragraph...indeed that's been my point as well.

I disagree with your characterization of the second paragraph...show me an infectious disease expert who wouldn't say that getting the crew ashore, quarantined fast, tested and then cleared wouldn't be the best way to both save lives and debilitating illnesses AND to the get the maximum crew back at sea as fast as possible.

The "hacks' of this story are unfortunately those who don't listen to the actual experts and thought this was just another flu, and didn't affect young people...

This needn't have been a Trump issue.
Modly made it so.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:04 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:04 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:25 pm Poorly informed, partisan second guessers would be wise to pay attention to the words of the Command Master Chief of the Navy in the 1 Apr presser, re-linked below. (can't excerpt because it's pdf).
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/people/se ... red%29.pdf

There are few more effective comm channels in the Navy than the network of Command Master Chiefs (CMC's), down to each command's Chiefs Mess.
If you want to "get the word out", unfiltered, send your message via the goat locker.

Sec Modly says he received a personal email from an enlisted member on the TR indicating that conditions were not as dire as indicated in the CO's signal flare email. (it was separately reported that Crozier had not shown his email to his CMC before sending it.) Then Master Chief Smith explained the impact of the signal flare on the families of the crew & the family ombudsman network. He concluded by indicating that his contacts on the TR were not expressing the same degree of urgency to him as expressed in the signal flare email.
Love to see the evidence of that story.
So you don't believe what the Senior Enlisted Man in the Navy told the assembled Pentagon press corps.
Did you even bother to read what he said in the press conf ?
A press briefing by Modly?
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:46 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:04 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:04 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:25 pm Poorly informed, partisan second guessers would be wise to pay attention to the words of the Command Master Chief of the Navy in the 1 Apr presser, re-linked below. (can't excerpt because it's pdf).
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/people/se ... red%29.pdf

There are few more effective comm channels in the Navy than the network of Command Master Chiefs (CMC's), down to each command's Chiefs Mess.
If you want to "get the word out", unfiltered, send your message via the goat locker.

Sec Modly says he received a personal email from an enlisted member on the TR indicating that conditions were not as dire as indicated in the CO's signal flare email. (it was separately reported that Crozier had not shown his email to his CMC before sending it.) Then Master Chief Smith explained the impact of the signal flare on the families of the crew & the family ombudsman network. He concluded by indicating that his contacts on the TR were not expressing the same degree of urgency to him as expressed in the signal flare email.
Love to see the evidence of that story.
So you don't believe what the Senior Enlisted Man in the Navy told the assembled Pentagon press corps.
Did you even bother to read what he said in the press conf ?
A press briefing by Modly?
The SecNav, CNO, CMC of the Navy & the Surgeon General of the Navy.
Did you read the words of the Command Master Chief of the Navy ?
Do you believe him, yes or no ?
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:44 pm ...show me an infectious disease expert who wouldn't say that getting the crew ashore, quarantined fast, tested and then cleared wouldn't be the best way to both save lives and debilitating illnesses AND to the get the maximum crew back at sea as fast as possible.
A special medical team deployed onboard the TR to deal with potential Covid infections. Throughout the process they were in consultation with the Surgeon General of the Navy.
Did you read his words in the press conf ?
Are you & Capt Crozier more qualified than him to advise the Navy CoC on this issue.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:21 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:46 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:04 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:04 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:25 pm Poorly informed, partisan second guessers would be wise to pay attention to the words of the Command Master Chief of the Navy in the 1 Apr presser, re-linked below. (can't excerpt because it's pdf).
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/people/se ... red%29.pdf

There are few more effective comm channels in the Navy than the network of Command Master Chiefs (CMC's), down to each command's Chiefs Mess.
If you want to "get the word out", unfiltered, send your message via the goat locker.

Sec Modly says he received a personal email from an enlisted member on the TR indicating that conditions were not as dire as indicated in the CO's signal flare email. (it was separately reported that Crozier had not shown his email to his CMC before sending it.) Then Master Chief Smith explained the impact of the signal flare on the families of the crew & the family ombudsman network. He concluded by indicating that his contacts on the TR were not expressing the same degree of urgency to him as expressed in the signal flare email.
Love to see the evidence of that story.
So you don't believe what the Senior Enlisted Man in the Navy told the assembled Pentagon press corps.
Did you even bother to read what he said in the press conf ?
A press briefing by Modly?
The SecNav, CNO, CMC of the Navy & the Surgeon General of the Navy.
Did you read the words of the Command Master Chief of the Navy ?
Do you believe him, yes or no ?
That the letter getting out to the public interfered with the ombudsman process? Is that what you're pointing to or something else?

What I see from multiple folks is that there was a failure in the chain of command to fully recognize that the captain felt it was necessary to move much faster and a failure to communicate effectively to him...by the chain of command. They talk about improving communications...

They make the point that now that they're on it, things are moving much faster than they had been. Making good progress. They don't answer the direct question that was asked, whether the letter lit a fire causing them to act more swiftly?, (Modly dances around and answers a different question), but the subsequent speakers appear to be responding by saying that now that they understand (April 1) they are moving more swiftly.

It's also noticeable that they keep saying that Crozier sent the letter up through the chain of command properly. Leaking it was a problem (eg the ombudsman aspect), but there was no suggestion that Crozier leaked it. Still hasn't been that accusation except in right-wing land.

But perhaps you're pointing to something else?
Modly does most of the talking.

And then of course subsequently Modly removes Crozier from command, telling David Ignatius he did so because he was concerned Trump wouldn't like what he was seeing about the letter in the press, so he was removing Crozier before Trump got involved.
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